The new Queue Match System

[Amunra-amunray]

The New queue match system is not working at all... The concept was a novelty but it seems that premades are being matched in the same amount and manner as before if not more frequent now....

 

Not sure how a game can theorize that its fair game play to place groups up against non groups and just cause you fill a queue with players does not make them a group....

 

It is time for BIOWARE and its developers to give up on the notions of this match queue system and ADD A GROUP MATCH QUEUE to make the pvp matches FAIR! 

 

Everything else is just supporting the current one sided lop sided and broken system aided to help groups take advantage of game play! in essence CHEATING! and the devs are supporting it until its truly fixed!

[KumbayaGOD]

no think the metric is if you group in larger then it may wait maybe 10 min to find same larger group and when time expire they will choose to get in anyway with solo quer 

this is i think what i would do as developer to give some time to get other premade but at the same time not too long to make que dead

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, KumbayaGOD said:

no think the metric is if you group in larger then it may wait maybe 10 min to find same larger group and when time expire they will choose to get in anyway with solo quer 

this is i think what i would do as developer to give some time to get other premade but at the same time not too long to make que dead

IMO, 10 mins isn’t enough time between. The minimum wait before it forces a premade vs pug should be the longest time a WZ match can go, plus 1-2 mins for the queue to match make. That way if there are multiple premades, the queue can match them together instead of them missing each other. 

[septru]

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

IMO, 10 mins isn’t enough time between. The minimum wait before it forces a premade vs pug should be the longest time a WZ match can go, plus 1-2 mins for the queue to match make. That way if there are multiple premades, the queue can match them together instead of them missing each other. 

I actually agree. 

 

When I que with my friends, we almost always get against other premades. There are a few times where we go against pugs. It's not fun. It usually happens because the other premade that we are trying to que against, is in a game. I think a 15 minute timer would help. But I wouldn't want to see anything longer than 20 minutes.

 

They should also limit premades to 4man. This would divide large 5-8man premades, and effectively put more premades in the que for the matchmaker to better matchmake premades against eachother. 

[Amunra-amunray]

On 4/6/2023 at 2:52 PM, septru said:

I actually agree. 

 

When I que with my friends, we almost always get against other premades. There are a few times where we go against pugs. It's not fun. It usually happens because the other premade that we are trying to que against, is in a game. I think a 15 minute timer would help. But I wouldn't want to see anything longer than 20 minutes.

 

They should also limit premades to 4man. This would divide large 5-8man premades, and effectively put more premades in the que for the matchmaker to better matchmake premades against eachother. 

Timer is not reallly the issue or fix

 

A group match Queue is the only fair and balanced resolve to this predicament.... they do not beling against solos period...

 

Where in any other game is it okay to have solo players against groups unless they have chosen the group match queue...

 

Group = Group Match Queue

Solo = Solo match Queue

Its easy but Bioware refuses cause they enjoy the "cheating" ( unless they can truly prove otherwise and in 11 years they have not) that is premades against 2 good players in an 8 man and premades against 1 sometimes 2 or even missing a player in an arena. or they leave!

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Amunra-amunray

[septru]

4 hours ago, Amunra-amunray said:

A group match Queue is the only fair and balanced resolve to this predicament.... they do not belong against solos period...

Just because you say it twice, does not make it any less dumb. 

 

A separate que is a terrible idea. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by septru

[krackcommando]

1 minute ago, Argomemnon said:

Seems like the ones saying its a bad idea just don't want longer or different queues to be in. The sheer amout of 1 sided matches is staggering to say the least. Add in the fact you dont really see as much of certain classes in there is obvious. Tons of operatives and scoundrels but i rarely see mercs or commandos.  Flavor of the month or something that needs fixing?

merc/mando, guardian/jugg, and sorc/sage are the most common dps in the game. you're guaranteed to find them in multiples in 80%+ of the arenas on SF. I have no idea what you're doing, where or when you're playing, but by that claim alone, I don't think it's possible to take you seriously. just...wow.

[septru]

53 minutes ago, Argomemnon said:

Seems like the ones saying its a bad idea just don't want longer or different queues to be in.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. 

[TrixxieTriss]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:39 PM, septru said:

Just because you say it twice, does not make it any less dumb. 

 

A separate que is a terrible idea. 

It might help if you explained to them why you think it’s a bad idea. Just saying it’s a terrible idea to a newish pvper only gives them the impression you want to gank them in premades.
I’m pretty sure I know what your reasoning is, but they don’t if you don’t explain it to them they’ll never understand.
Even knowing the reasons, I still disagree with not splitting the queue for WZ or making arena solo only. But at least I understand you’re reasons.

Edited April 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Amunra-amunray]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:39 AM, septru said:

Just because you say it twice, does not make it any less dumb. 

 

A separate que is a terrible idea. 

The terrible IDEA is allowing this current match queue system to exist! The notion is only perceived acceptable by CHEATERS! Now if no groups were allowed would be fine be me too...

This is not an operations battle field. 

Balance and Fairness will only ever exist with seperate queues. And the only real reason people are asking it not be done is they fear longer queues. 

If you queue as a group and your timer is long well that is your choice. 

 

But forcing solo and training players to go up against teams that are used to playing with one another is allowing CHEATING!  PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

[septru]

18 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

It might help if you explained to them why you think it’s a bad idea. Just saying it’s a terrible idea to a newish pvper only gives them the impression you want to gank them in premades.

1. A separate premade que is simply not practical. Moreover, it simply would not work with odd number premades. What happens when a group of 3 ques for an arena? Or a group of 5 ques for warzones, but there are no groups of 3 in the que? Are these players just not allowed to get pops? Should we just ban all odd number premades?

 

2. A separate que is a punishment for players that want to play with friends. A separate que would significantly increase que times for premades. Almost all the premade QQers, including the OP and yourself, argues that "if players don't want long que times, well then they shouldn't premade." Which, let's be clear, is an absurd, punitive ultimatum. You might not have any friends, but you shouldn't punish other players for having friends. 

 

3. And most importantly, a separate premade que deincentivizes (or at least removes the incentives) to premade which is extremely myopic. Premades are good for the game. Playing with other players helps players learn the game, explore other classes and roles, creates a desire to improve, and (from a BioWare perspective) keeps players engaged and interested in the game. Like we discussed in the other thread, premading is probably the most effective way to improve your skill because you can ask advice from someone that has seen you over several matches. We can go on-and-on about the benefits of premades, but on the whole, premading should be incentivized not deincentivized. 

 

To quote our lord and savor Eric Musco, "I get it." Premades create an inherently advantage. No one is denying this. But at the end of the day, you can have this same exact advantage. All it takes is a simple whisper: "hey you were really good in that warzone. Want to group up?" Maybe you have a crippling neurological disorder that prevents you from making friends. Maybe you have a game breaking bug where you can't use whispers. But none of these are good reasons to fundamentally change the game for the 90% of players who can and should make groups. Premades have a positive impact on the game and should be incentivized for all players. But because you don't want to bother making a group, you selfishly want to remove all the incentives for other players to group up. In fact, you want to disincentivize premades with long que times. All because you lost a game to a group of people who bothered to make friends. How incredibly selfish. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by septru

[septru]

btw when i say "you" I don't mean any particular person. It's a general "you."

[krackcommando]

prum never even mentioned the fact that most premades are small grps of 2-3, are not trinity, and are not wiping the map clean of enemies.

and you are very much throwing THEM to wolves with a split queue in a ridiculously casual game.

Edited April 14, 2023 by krackcommando

[septru]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

prum never even mentioned the fact that most premades are small grps of 2-3, are not trinity, and are not wiping the map clean of enemies.

 

And to be clear, I get that 8 man premades are incredibly unfair. I also knwo that most players cannot easily create 8man premades. Which is why I suggested in this thread and others to reduce the premade max size by half. 

 

But like you've noted most premades are not 8 man premades. Instead most of the "separate premade que" QQing comes from a general hate towards anyone that ques with any friends. Like the OP has endlessly cried about, for him any group of 2-3 friends are CHEATERS. Despite the fact that it's relatively easy to make a group of 2-3.

Edited April 14, 2023 by septru

[DeannaVoyager]

4 hours ago, septru said:

3. And most importantly, premades are good for the game and should be incentivized. Playing with other players helps players learn the game, explore other classes and roles, creates a desire to improve, and (from a BioWare perspective) keeps players engaged and interested in the game. Like we discussed in the other thread, premading is probably the most effective way to improve your skill because you can ask advice from someone that has seen you over several matches. We can go on-and-on about the benefits of premades, but on the whole, premading should be incentivized not deincentivized. 

 

 

Premades are not good for the game, they are only good for the people in those premades because they will have to play less for the weekly. Premades are bad for the game, because they drive people away from pvp, or make the afk in the corner. That is not good for the game.

 

If someone wants to play in a group of friends, it can still be done in a separate queue against other premades. This would also ensure everyone will get to play fair games.

 

People who want to get better will get a lot better in premade vs premade, because they will actually have to learn when the group can't carry them against another premade.  Unbalanced teams and lopsided matches do not teach anyone anything. You're basically just using that as an excuse to "justify" free wins for you and your mates.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

4 hours ago, septru said:

1. A separate premade que is simply not practical. Moreover, it simply would not work with odd number premades. What happens when a group of 3 ques for an arena? Or a group of 5 ques for warzones, but there are no groups of 3 in the que? Are these players just not allowed to get pops? Should we just ban all odd number premades?

 

2. A separate que is a punishment for players that want to play with friends. A separate que would significantly increase que times for premades. Almost all the premade QQers, including the OP and yourself, argues that "if players don't want long que times, well then they shouldn't premade." Which, let's be clear, is an absurd, punitive ultimatum. You might not have any friends, but you shouldn't punish other players for having friends. 

 

3. And most importantly, premades are good for the game and should be incentivized. Playing with other players helps players learn the game, explore other classes and roles, creates a desire to improve, and (from a BioWare perspective) keeps players engaged and interested in the game. Like we discussed in the other thread, premading is probably the most effective way to improve your skill because you can ask advice from someone that has seen you over several matches. We can go on-and-on about the benefits of premades, but on the whole, premading should be incentivized not deincentivized. 

 

To quote our lord and savor Eric Musco, "I get it." Premades create an inherently advantage. No one is denying this. But at the end of the day, you can have this same exact advantage. All it takes is a simple whisper: "hey you were really good in that warzone. Want to group up?" Maybe you have a crippling neurological disorder that prevents you from making friends. Maybe you have a game breaking bug where you can't use whispers. But none of these are good reasons to fundamentally change the game for the 90% of players who can and should make groups. Premades have a positive impact on the game and should be incentivized for all players. But because you don't want to bother making a group, you selfishly want to remove all the incentives for other players to group up. In fact, you want to disincentivize premades with long que times. All because you lost a game to a group of people who bothered to make friends. How incredibly selfish. 

The MASSIVE flaw in these arguments is that “anyone can join a premade it’s fine!” Most of us are smart enough to see through that. While technically true, not anyone can join a GOOD premade. If a 2k dps merc pms me to que with them after I carried them in an arena I’m just not gonna respond. And guaranteed you’d do the same. You’re not inviting this person to your premade. 
 

So basically, the better players group up so they never lose. This is what happens - I do it all the time and still haven’t lost a 4 man premade match since 7.2. Maybe I lost one 3 man premade match? 
 

You talk about fairness as if anyone can join premades and start winning if they just make friends! But that’s bogus and you know it. Premades just allow the good players to never lose which is probably not healthy for the game long term…

[septru]

24 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Premades are bad for the game, because they drive people away from pvp, or make the afk in the corner.

You're right. There are a lot of players that give up or afk in a corner when they start losing. But that's not because they're losing to premades. I've literally seen a group of 5 players AFKing in the same corner after 2 minutes of Civil War because they were getting stomped by a group of complete pugs. 

 

24 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

If someone wants to play in a group of friends, it can still be done in a separate queue against other premades.

Except for the fact where you ignored everything I said about a separate premade que punishing premades and disincentivizing grouping up. 

 

24 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You're basically just using that as an excuse to "justify" free wins for you and your mates.

Trust me, I don't need to premade to win a regs warzone/arena. lol

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by septru

[krackcommando]

on SF, the biggest premade issue is that they class stack. like the rankederp whatevers, reign in darkness, even when I see the rizz guys. it's like 3 sorcs, 3 PTs, 2 ops and a sin. i mean. iunno. I personally will play it once. twice. stuck it. then go do something else.

but to be clear, this isn't a regular occurrence. it's just who wants to play a meme team of the best possible classes & specs? still. this is first world problem stuff. I'm not blind. for every one time I run into those groups I literally see 20 other 2-3m groups, and they aren't remotely as good or game changing. you can't just say, ok. it's possible that a bunch of gold and platinum plates will class stack and sorc rescue themselves from every killing scenario while simultaneously drowning your team in dots and slows until you're dead. so now nobody can grp...just because it's possible that a meme team of APs will obliterate you 1 in 50 matches.

[septru]

5 minutes ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

While technically true, not anyone can join a GOOD premade.

Of course this is a problem. It's probably not that big of a problem since, like @krackcommando mentioned, most premades are 2/3/4 man. But more importantly, how does a separate premade que solve this problem? 

[DeannaVoyager]

14 minutes ago, septru said:

You're right. There are a lot of players that give up or afk in a corner when they start losing. But that's not because they're losing to premades. I've literally seen a group of 5 players AFKing in the same corner after 2 minutes of Civil War because they were getting stomped by a group of complete pugs. 

 

Trust me, I don't need to premade to win a regs warzone/arena. lol

 

At least you didn't deny these points I made in my post:

 

26 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Premades are not good for the game, they are only good for the people in those premades because they will have to play less for the weekly. Premades are bad for the game, because they drive people away from pvp, or make the afk in the corner. That is not good for the game.

 

If someone wants to play in a group of friends, it can still be done in a separate queue against other premades. This would also ensure everyone will get to play fair games.

 

People who want to get better will get a lot better in premade vs premade, because they will actually have to learn when the group can't carry them against another premade.  Unbalanced teams and lopsided matches do not teach anyone anything. You're basically just using that as an excuse to "justify" free wins for you and your mates.

 

[Prapcaster]

4 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 

At least you didn't deny these points I made in my post:

 

 

At the risk of getting another comment removed I'll try to talk about this. 8 mans I agree are a bad thing full stop. 4 mans are just friends who enjoy playing with each other and shouldn't be touched. The biggest issue is the match making. If the hidden mmr is as invasive as bioware has told us then  these 4 mans are just damage farming for fun and are gonna go against the people that are more or less free kills because their loss record is so terrible from solo queueing. A lot of people complaining are the same people that are also getting farmed by competant pug teams and they'll still blame premades for that. Not all the complainers but a lot. How do you even fix that? Make the game a single player game and remove the online?

[Crystal_Mind]

5 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Premades are not good for the game, they are only good for the people in those premades because they will have to play less for the weekly. Premades are bad for the game, because they drive people away from pvp, or make the afk in the corner. That is not good for the game.

Separate queues are a nonstarter for reasons already stated ad nauseum in this thread and elsewhere. With regard to the rest of your post:

When I first stepped into PvP (long before Galactic Seasons was a thing) I was both clueless and terrified. "PvP?" I said, "Moi??!?!" This was in the days when I had to be dragged into any kind of PUG situation, even groupfinder flashpoints. But one night after prog, two of my night-owl guildies hauled me into a 3-man premade.

Let it be known that I was Bad with a capital B.

I didn't know the maps. I didn't know the objectives. I didn't know what resolve was. I didn't know any of the other classes' DCDs. I only played one DPS class, and that not terribly well. If someone had told me to peel my response would have been "What?" But my guildies were patient and explained as we went, and after a couple hours of midnight queue I had a basic idea of what was going on and no one had screamed at me. Since I am not a night owl, that gave me just enough information to start queueing on my own in more normal hours. I was still bad, but no longer 100% clueless, and I had some idea how to figure out what I did wrong and how to avoid it in subsequent encounters. I still mostly ran with guildies for a while, and when I inevitably screwed up and asked them how to improve, they told me.

Without the ability to join a premade at the start, I would never have set foot in PvP.

If SWTOR had good in-game tutorials for the warzones, it might be different. But as it is, you mostly learn by trial and error, and that's way more fun with friends (the loading screen "instructions" are a joke).

These days, I usually queue solo or occasionally with (1) other person, and the grouping is largely to counteract the AFKers. If I have one buddy I can count on things tend to go better. And if we lose despite that, well, then we laugh about it instead of getting tilted and just hit the queue button again. PvP in this game is not serious. If I don't finish a weekly in a single night, I don't care.

[TrixxieTriss]

12 hours ago, septru said:

1. A separate premade que is simply not practical. Moreover, it simply would not work with odd number premades. What happens when a group of 3 ques for an arena? Or a group of 5 ques for warzones, but there are no groups of 3 in the que? Are these players just not allowed to get pops? Should we just ban all odd number premades?

 

2. A separate que is a punishment for players that want to play with friends. A separate que would significantly increase que times for premades. Almost all the premade QQers, including the OP and yourself, argues that "if players don't want long que times, well then they shouldn't premade." Which, let's be clear, is an absurd, punitive ultimatum. You might not have any friends, but you shouldn't punish other players for having friends. 

 

3. And most importantly, a separate premade que deincentivizes (or at least removes the incentives) to premade which is extremely myopic. Premades are good for the game. Playing with other players helps players learn the game, explore other classes and roles, creates a desire to improve, and (from a BioWare perspective) keeps players engaged and interested in the game. Like we discussed in the other thread, premading is probably the most effective way to improve your skill because you can ask advice from someone that has seen you over several matches. We can go on-and-on about the benefits of premades, but on the whole, premading should be incentivized not deincentivized. 

 

To quote our lord and savor Eric Musco, "I get it." Premades create an inherently advantage. No one is denying this. But at the end of the day, you can have this same exact advantage. All it takes is a simple whisper: "hey you were really good in that warzone. Want to group up?" Maybe you have a crippling neurological disorder that prevents you from making friends. Maybe you have a game breaking bug where you can't use whispers. But none of these are good reasons to fundamentally change the game for the 90% of players who can and should make groups. Premades have a positive impact on the game and should be incentivized for all players. But because you don't want to bother making a group, you selfishly want to remove all the incentives for other players to group up. In fact, you want to disincentivize premades with long que times. All because you lost a game to a group of people who bothered to make friends. How incredibly selfish. 

I do understand you’re arguments & Im not unsympathetic to them. But the trouble with accommodating only the premades point of view is the same problem BioWare had of only accommodating ranked players point of view.

When Boiware ignore the majority in favour of the few, they alienate a large amount of players (doesn’t matter what part of the game it is). Which means less players to refill spots left by people leaving PvP. In the end it concentrates toxicity & you have less & less people queuing & less quality & enjoyment for those who stay.

I did offer a “you can have your cake & eat it” solution in another thread about a month ago. That addressed odd numbered premades, queuing with friends & premades to learn new skills. And in a seperate thread, I offered a place where newbies could have a safe place to learn. 

BioWare need to decided what they want for PvP. They got rid of ranked (for dubiously stated reasons) but want to build up numbers in a less toxic PvP environment. Sadly, pitting ranked quality premades against pugs, especially newbie pvpers who have no incentivised path to improve, is only creating another environment for toxicity to bloom (yes I know they aren’t all ranked quality). 

If BioWares intention is to force or overly encourage players to group up because premades vs pugs becomes too obnoxious, then I wish they’d state that as a goal. Sadly, like most BioWare development, I don’t think they even know what their end goal is most of the time. 

BioWare can accommodate both types of play types if they are willing to try. If things start to go pear shape, they shouldn’t be scared to make adjustments. But the fact that they won’t even address this topic with the community, shows they know it’s contentious & they’re too scared to try.

In the mean time, PvP will continue to get more toxic & turn players away. And while seasons may bring in some new blood, ultimately it will fail without some adjustments to the situation.

 

[Samcuu]

4 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But the fact that they won’t even address this topic with the community, shows they know it’s contentious & they’re too scared to try.

Either that or they simply won't address it because it's an asinine idea. Their game is an mmo. Mmos are a thing because they create a community and bring ppl together to play the game. Making it harder for ppl who are social and want to group up with friends to get pops in the wz queue is the biggest non starter of all non starters, it contradicts the entire idea of an mmorpg. In fact they just did the opposite and expanded premade groups to 8 lol.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Samcuu

[DeannaVoyager]

6 hours ago, Crystal_Mind said:

Separate queues are a nonstarter for reasons already stated ad nauseum in this thread and elsewhere. With regard to the rest of your post:

When I first stepped into PvP (long before Galactic Seasons was a thing) I was both clueless and terrified. "PvP?" I said, "Moi??!?!" This was in the days when I had to be dragged into any kind of PUG situation, even groupfinder flashpoints. But one night after prog, two of my night-owl guildies hauled me into a 3-man premade.

Let it be known that I was Bad with a capital B.

I didn't know the maps. I didn't know the objectives. I didn't know what resolve was. I didn't know any of the other classes' DCDs. I only played one DPS class, and that not terribly well. If someone had told me to peel my response would have been "What?" But my guildies were patient and explained as we went, and after a couple hours of midnight queue I had a basic idea of what was going on and no one had screamed at me. Since I am not a night owl, that gave me just enough information to start queueing on my own in more normal hours. I was still bad, but no longer 100% clueless, and I had some idea how to figure out what I did wrong and how to avoid it in subsequent encounters. I still mostly ran with guildies for a while, and when I inevitably screwed up and asked them how to improve, they told me.

Without the ability to join a premade at the start, I would never have set foot in PvP.

If SWTOR had good in-game tutorials for the warzones, it might be different. But as it is, you mostly learn by trial and error, and that's way more fun with friends (the loading screen "instructions" are a joke).

These days, I usually queue solo or occasionally with (1) other person, and the grouping is largely to counteract the AFKers. If I have one buddy I can count on things tend to go better. And if we lose despite that, well, then we laugh about it instead of getting tilted and just hit the queue button again. PvP in this game is not serious. If I don't finish a weekly in a single night, I don't care.

 

Yes, friends helping someone to understand pvp will make it easier for newcomers. What I'm saying is premades can play against other premades, and have solo players play against other solo players. Separating the queues doesn't prevent guildies from teaching the secrets of pvp to new players. Combined queue however drives away potential pvp players because they are getting obliterated by premade gangs.