1. There is nothing wrong with the economy; 2. To change it you must control the exchange rate

[Stradlin]

4 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

See? In your example, hyper-inflation is bad because people can't buy food. There is no such issue in SWTOR because prices to play the game are completely stable.  The only problem is cosmetics from other players. And, in that situation CC prices are stable versus USD.

Your example is not applicable and inflation is not an issue.

Again, provide an example of something you cannot afford simply by playing the game. You can't. These weak attempts to relate a MMO to real life are ridiculous and not applicable. In your example, things that *you must* buy get more expensive. This is not the case here. 

Furthermore, it's now easier to earn credits from other players at "inflated" prices. OEM/RPMs go for ~60m still.

 

it is a video game, literally nothing here is important or a "must buy".  You aren't in a position where you can dictate which price tags are relelvant "to play the game" and which aren't. What is relevant is dictated by players playing, not by forum posts of others. Everybody here is guided by what they find most fun. 

 

For at least 90% of the playerbase, any sort of difficulty simply isn't part of their  gameplay experience:  People play stories and run story mode FPs and do space barbie. Repair bill  aside, there has never been any significant purchases from client-side you'd have to do to get to tackle  these aspects of the game . Any sort of  from-player-to-client transactions,  inflated or otherwise, are  barely present at all when it comes to completing your class story, leveling to max lvl, running though the post vanilla expansions. Economy or player's wealth hasn't had a part to play in this portion of the game in  years. You don't need to earn 100 million credits in order to  defeat the end boss.

Economy, having credits, earning credits becomes important only if the player ends up wanting quality of life, legacy unlocks, SHs, decos, cosmetics.  It becomes important if the player in question finds navigating the perils of  player to player economy fun or rewarding. If that stuff becomes important to the player, then it  is pat of "them  playing the game"  You don't -need- to do any of this stuff in order to kill the last boss and save the princess. Just that if player finds it important, then it..is important in his world? Its quite simple. What is or isn't important in SWTOR isn't some collection of  objective truths that is yours to define.

You have this peculiar need to elevate yourself to a position where you get to dictate what counts as " playing the game for reals" and what counts as " vapid additional stuff". These things are entirely subjective. Somebody who cares nothing of cosmetics, decoing or other players and just wants to play TOR as a single player game can do their thing completely disconnected from the economy.  There is no inflation or economy in a wider sense present in experience of this player. Meanwhile, some absolute fashionista who loves doing outfits, decoing SHs, collecting gear for the sake of collecting it is greatly influenced by the inflation.Neither of these players plays the game "wrong", both play it their way.

 

I think it is widely accepted space barbie stuff is among the more succesful, popular and well done facets of TOR. It is important to many. Since all cartel cosmetics have costed cartel coins to somebody, it is important to BW too. It keeps many entertained and it plays huge role in keeping the game afloat.  Inlfation reaching scale where game client isn't really able to cope with pricetags makes spacebarbie business  more complicated  and less appealing. it is a huge, relevant issue that has affected the economy a great deal. You can wave your hands as much as you like about player-to-client economy being entirely untouched by it. Which it indeed is. . You just need to adjust to the fact that many peope consider different aspects of TOR as the " real game" than you do.

It is a video game, there are no needs here, only wants and vanity.

 

It is hilarious  to watch you roll with this " inflation is not an issue!"" tagline, when it has reached a stage where main hub for player to player trade can't really deal with high end items anymore. Client can't deal with pricetags inflation has wrought  to player to player transactions.  

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Stradlin

[cach-x]

Bioware could control the CC item market in several ways but it's probably too scared of angering the whales and/or devaluate their own CC currency.

It's a lose-lose for them son I don't expect decisive action on their part.

Personally, when I came back after a 5 year absence and was faced with the inflation, I took my pile of CC's (gifted authenticator CCs keep ticking even when you're not subscribed), bought a couple of premium dyes, sold them, and never worried about money again.

[FlatTax]

13 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

The only problem is cosmetics from other players. And, in that situation CC prices are stable versus USD.

It's not the only problem.

Cash, and its inflationary effect, affects monetized systems like endgame gearing. Augments and kits are the most glaring example.

Credit inflation incentivizes cash buy-outs, which gets us into pay-to-win territory.

[recalcitrantIre]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:31 AM, Stradlin said:

Which it was in SWTOR, til 2020/21 or thereabouts.

you're about six years off but keep going

[StrikePrice]

11 hours ago, Stradlin said:

 

it is a video game, literally nothing here is important or a "must buy".  You aren't in a position where you can dictate which price tags are relelvant "to play the game" and which aren't. What is relevant is dictated by players playing, not by forum posts of others. Everybody here is guided by what they find most fun. 

Simply wrong. Some things are required to advance in the game others are not. Your point makes no sense. Sorry. 

[StrikePrice]

9 hours ago, cach-x said:

Bioware could control the CC item market in several ways but it's probably too scared of angering the whales and/or devaluate their own CC currency.

It's a lose-lose for them son I don't expect decisive action on their part.

Personally, when I came back after a 5 year absence and was faced with the inflation, I took my pile of CC's (gifted authenticator CCs keep ticking even when you're not subscribed), bought a couple of premium dyes, sold them, and never worried about money again.

This is precisely the point. Thank you. You can immediately catch up to "inflation". The price of CC to USD is constant. So, you bought something for USD and were gifted CC. You used those CC to immediately "catch up" to the economy.  You did it with money, but you can do it just the same in game by selling things to all these rich players. 

[StrikePrice]

2 hours ago, FlatTax said:

It's not the only problem.

Cash, and its inflationary effect, affects monetized systems like endgame gearing. Augments and kits are the most glaring example.

Credit inflation incentivizes cash buy-outs, which gets us into pay-to-win territory.

This is false. You can just as easily create end game gear and sell it as need to buy it. Then you can take advantage of all that "inflation" by selling instead of buying. 

[Stradlin]

4 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

Simply wrong. Some things are required to advance in the game others are not. Your point makes no sense. Sorry. 

 

Name a pricetag that forms a somehow meaningful obstacle on a path of  a player advancing through the class stories and expansions.  Client constantly gives you a steady  stream of new credits and takes a very small portion of it back via repair bills and unavoidable travel costs. None of this modest unavoidable back and forth requires any attention from player.  Player advancing through story of TOR can completely ignore there being any kind of larger economy if he so wishes.  In practice, I'm not really sure how many times most typical player imaginable  doing most typical playthrough of srories imaginable even has to repair.  At no point does a player doing this encounter a situation where he'd have to earn money to progress.

Somebody playing through class stories can stroll their way from Tython to latest expansion without paying any attention to economy.  

Somewhere in middle of all that evidently satisfying " wrong wrong wrong!!!" shouting, you are still kinda prisoned by your self made subjectivity box.  It is an MMO with multiple different rides. Your idea of what counts as " advancing in the game" isn't some universal thing. It is very likely your goals aren't mine, and mine aren't yours. 

What you count as advancing might not even be a  part of somebody else's equation. Very few close to universal  or objective pathways everybody at least recognizes  (say, xp, character level, progessing story far enough to get a ship) are ones that in no way  require paying any attention to credits, earning credits, economy.

 

It is fair to say there's two  seperate economies, client-player and player-player. Pretending player-to-player side doesn't suffer from sympthoms superinflation causes is intentionally disohonest.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Stradlin

[StrikePrice]

6 hours ago, Stradlin said:

Somebody playing through class stories can stroll their way from Tython to latest expansion without paying any attention to economy.  

We agree. The catastrophizing about the "economy" has nothing to do with a player's ability to play the game. Thank you.

 

6 hours ago, Stradlin said:

's two  seperate economies, client-player and player-player. Pretending player-to-player side doesn't suffer from sympthoms superinflation causes is intentionally disohonest.

It seems most people don't understand what inflation is. You understand, you can sell as easily as you can buy, right?

The rate of CC to USD is stable. You can always convert CC to credits at the going rate. Therefore, there is no inflation. What 100 USD in CC bought you yesterday, it bought you last year and it buys you today. 

You can always and instantly catch up to the economy. Therefore, there is no inflation.  If there was inflation, what 100 USD buys you today would be less than it buys you last year. This is not the case. 

 

If I give you a token that can covert to $1,000,000 in 1970 and tell you that you can convert that token to inflation adjusted USD any time in the future, for you, there is no inflation. Your token is USD and the conversion is CC. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by StrikePrice

[juanmf]

This post reeks of "I'm sitting on my Ivory tower full of credits, I don't see the economic issue".- Because paying hundres of millions for a one-time use dye is totally a non-issue right? Give me a break.

 

It's painfully clear how many of you weren't around when you could grind heroics one evening and buy a lot of stuff from the GTN. And I mean CM stuff.

Edited April 21, 2023 by juanmf

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

We agree. The catastrophizing about the "economy" has nothing to do with a player's ability to play the game. Thank you.

 

It seems most people don't understand what inflation is. You understand, you can sell as easily as you can buy, right?

The rate of CC to USD is stable. You can always convert CC to credits at the going rate. Therefore, there is no inflation. What 100 USD in CC bought you yesterday, it bought you last year and it buys you today. 

You can always and instantly catch up to the economy. Therefore, there is no inflation.  If there was inflation, what 100 USD buys you today would be less than it buys you last year. This is not the case. 

Different currencies, different economy. 

Throwing real life money at a game so that you get wealthier in said game isn't much of a gold standard in determining if in-game economy with its in-game currency  is inflated or not.

Players can't trade in   USD or cc. These are both present only between EA and the player, and it is always a one way street. You can't "trade with EA"  in USD and cc.  You pay dollars for them and get a bit of cartel coins  in return. 

You keep saying there is no inflation because currency players can't even trade in  is stable.   There are no cartel coins or dollars  in player to player trade. Cc comes from EA and when you  spend  it, it goes back  to EA. Meanwhile, the only  currency players do get to  trade in is inflated. Yes, you can throw real life money at this problem to become richer in  that video game currency.  Said currency is still inflated.

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Stradlin

[cach-x]

46 minutes ago, juanmf said:

It's painfully clear how many of you weren't around when you could grind heroics one evening and buy a lot of stuff from the GTN. And I mean CM stuff.

I was there when the first CC lootbox happened and the Nihlus mask was something between like 2 to 5 million creds and it seemed like a pipe dream. I even got suckered into buying a couple of crates in the hopes to get an "instantly rich" drop.

I played way more back then and I didn't even dream I could afford something like that. So my experience is very different from yours.

The fun part, and one of the points I think OP is trying to make is that if I really wanted to I could afford premium items more easily that I could in the past, even without directly buying CCs, but I prefer to spend my crafts and Tech frags/other currencies on player advancement instead of profit.

From what I can gather from this thread, people are really griping against the lack of convenience that comes from the system not being capable to handle luxury item trading anymore, and on that they have my support. But the message gets lost on "BIG NUMBER SO SCARY WOOOOOooo".

 

[LD_Little_Dragon]

1 hour ago, juanmf said:

This post reeks of "I'm sitting on my Ivory tower full of credits, I don't see the economic issue".- Because paying hundres of millions for a one-time use dye is totally a non-issue right? Give me a break.

It is a non-issue because there are plenty of alternatives.  You want that black/black dye?  Pay for it.  If you can't afford it then try using the red/black, blue/black, black/grey and numerous other considerably cheaper crafted dyes instead.

Don't want to pay for a crafted dye or level up artfice to make your own? Try the always available cheap vendor dyes.  You can get Primary red or blue, Secondary red or blue, dark gray/red and purple/gray for 35k or less on the cartel dye vendors.  That's with only a couple of ranks in cartel rep levels. 

Inflation is only an issue for players who 'gotta have' the expensive cosmetic stuff instead of taking the time and (really minimal) effort to look for alternatives.

[Balameb]

4 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

We agree. The catastrophizing about the "economy" has nothing to do with a player's ability to play the game. Thank you.

 

It seems most people don't understand what inflation is. You understand, you can sell as easily as you can buy, right?

The rate of CC to USD is stable. You can always convert CC to credits at the going rate. Therefore, there is no inflation. What 100 USD in CC bought you yesterday, it bought you last year and it buys you today. 

You can always and instantly catch up to the economy. Therefore, there is no inflation.  If there was inflation, what 100 USD buys you today would be less than it buys you last year. This is not the case. 

 

If I give you a token that can covert to $1,000,000 in 1970 and tell you that you can convert that token to inflation adjusted USD any time in the future, for you, there is no inflation. Your token is USD and the conversion is CC. 

WRONG!!!!!

I already educated you in regards to inflation. You are probably the first that don't actually understand what it is. I suggest you at least google it so you don't humilliate yourself even more.

I also pointed you that same amount of u$s that for example during 5.X let you 'cath up', does not let you cath up in 7.X; you are required several times more u$s (way more than regular u$s inflation in US). You constructed everything on the premise that u$s had the same in game purchase value since 'forever'; but since that is not correct, and you even admited to not even remember/knowing the value of stuff some years ago:

You were WRONG when you started this, you were WRONG when answering to everyone that teached you how wrong you were, you are WRONG now and you will still be tomorrow and the next day because you are nothing but trolling with this thread.

[StrikePrice]

1 hour ago, Balameb said:

WRONG!!!!!

I already educated you in regards to inflation. You are probably the first that don't actually understand what it is. I suggest you at least google it so you don't humilliate yourself even more.

I also pointed you that same amount of u$s that for example during 5.X let you 'cath up', does not let you cath up in 7.X; you are required several times more u$s (way more than regular u$s inflation in US). You constructed everything on the premise that u$s had the same in game purchase value since 'forever'; but since that is not correct, and you even admited to not even remember/knowing the value of stuff some years ago:

You were WRONG when you started this, you were WRONG when answering to everyone that teached you how wrong you were, you are WRONG now and you will still be tomorrow and the next day because you are nothing but trolling with this thread.

Nothing you just wrote is correct. Sorry. You cannot give one substantive example of how this supposed "inflation" affects the game in a negative way. Not one. Because it does not exist. If you have a problem with the economy, you don't want to put in the money or the time. That's it.  Welcome to MMOs. Money or time. No other way. 

If you put the money or time into SWTOR, you can have everything you want. And, the time requirements are much less than most other MMOs. 

Ignoring you now. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by StrikePrice

[DWho]

5 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

You cannot give one substantive example of how this supposed "inflation" affects the game in a negative way.

It disincentivizes subs. When a new player gets done with his first character and looks at his balance then looks at the prices on the GTN he will reasonably assume he has no chance to buy anything there. In that case, there is no reason to sub as his credits won't matter anyway. The same is true for the returning player and even current subs. If they have no realistic chance to obtain those levels of credits playing they game in a way they enjoy, the f2p game will serve them quite well. Lost subs equals a dying game.

[StrikePrice]

15 hours ago, DWho said:

It disincentivizes subs. When a new player gets done with his first character and looks at his balance then looks at the prices on the GTN he will reasonably assume he has no chance to buy anything there. In that case, there is no reason to sub as his credits won't matter anyway. The same is true for the returning player and even current subs. If they have no realistic chance to obtain those levels of credits playing they game in a way they enjoy, the f2p game will serve them quite well. Lost subs equals a dying game.

I agree with this. The f2p experience should be improved to try and help them catch up. Limiting accounts to 1m seems silly to me. But, I think that's one way they combat gold sellers? Not sure. 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You need 5 things to play this game to the fullest and to be able to complete and compete in any aspect of the game  (story, raiding, PVP ).

* Med Packs 

* Stims

* Adrenals

* Gear

* Augments/Crystals

All of which can be obtained, as a subscriber,  totally, utterly, objectively, provably, demonstratively, and absolutely for free.

Anyone who says differently is not only lying but are a detriment to the game for that might lead to some people not joining, returning, or remaining in the game based on such false pretenses.

I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but apparently once or 5 times isn't enough. - If you can get it for free, it's not pay-to-win.

This isn't a subject you can agree to disagree on, because it isn't subjective, as it is a true or not true statement.

Bling, you pay for and that is a reasonable expectation. But even bling in this game, in a great many instances, can be gotten for free with some time, work and effort to earn credits in game.

I hate to repeat myself, but, I have earned probably in the ball park of 60-70 billion credits in the last 6 months selling things I've crafted and decorations I get from deco-hunting and I always price the things I sell the absolute lowest at the time I list it on the GTN, often by many millions cheaper. I make all my credits using the GTN exclusively and I am never selling anything any where near the cap (1 billion). The most I ever sell anything for, and this is the exception, not the rule, is 100-120 million. Mostly its between 10-60 million and I never sell out, I always have to relist probably half or more the things I list on the GTN the next day.

You don't need to sell packs or gold augs or fleece people to make good profits.

Edited April 22, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[SteveTheCynic]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

All of which can be obtained, as a subscriber,  totally, utterly, objectively, provably, demonstratively, and absolutely for free.

Anyone who says differently is not only lying but are a detriment to the game for that might lead to some people not joining, returning, or remaining in the game based on such false pretenses.

"For free" is a very strong word to use for things that require white materials to craft.  (Everything of any value that you craft requires white materials.)

White materials are not free.  Granted, they cost spit-all credits, but the cost isn't zero.

[FlatTax]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

All of which can be obtained, as a subscriber,  totally, utterly, objectively, provably, demonstratively, and absolutely for free.

This is a meaningless fact that distracts from how monetized grinds work.

Whether or not anyone else gets it, EA gets it.

Edited April 22, 2023 by FlatTax
Clarity

[Jdast]

15 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

This is a meaningless fact that distracts from how monetized grinds work.

Whether or not anyone else gets it, EA gets it.

We all get it. What you don't get is that EA has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders and is a business.

Every single MMORPG I have ever played has some degree of pay to advance more quickly, whether through buying Enhanced Experience Scrolls in Elder Scrolls Online (ESO) or Master Datacrons in SWTOR.

Your argument about Augments / Kits simply means other players don't enjoy crafting and like to earn credits through questing to buy such items. It's a win-win.

You also continue to ignore the fact that many players enjoy crafting and playing the GTN. Every, and I mean every MMORPG has a crafting system and a marketplace to reward those efforts. Guess what? Some people enjoy doing that.

I admire your perseverance, but at some point you should recognize that the overwhelming majority disagrees with you. There is a reason why. I can count on two fingers the people who agree with your definition of Play-to-Win. Nevertheless, keep Tilting at Windmills. Your crusade has gained no traction for years and never will, either in SWTOR or any other major MMORPG.

Your proposal of monetizing only Cosmetic / Space Barbie would lead to the death of the game. So when you say 'we don't get it' -- understand that we do. It's you who doesn't get it, and obviously given your post history, never will.

Call me crazy, but I prefer SWTOR to keep operating.

Dasty

[Zechalakazam]

Reading this thread makes me remember back in 2014-ish, the most expensive stuff is Cathar Honor Sword for around 1.5m.

 

Got lucky with my crate when I got 1 Conqueror Lightsaber and some armor piece (probably Revan but I forgot). Which make me get the 10Mil cheevo.

 

Oh how the times has change xD

[Toraak]

5 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

"For free" is a very strong word to use for things that require white materials to craft.  (Everything of any value that you craft requires white materials.)

White materials are not free.  Granted, they cost spit-all credits, but the cost isn't zero.

they are claiming it is FREE, because you do not pay Real life money for it. Your only spending a small amount of credits and those can be earned in game for FREE. Only costing you game time.

[StrikePrice]

18 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

You need 5 things to play this game to the fullest and to be able to complete and compete in any aspect of the game  (story, raiding, PVP ).

* Med Packs 

* Stims

* Adrenals

* Gear

* Augments/Crystals

All of which can be obtained, as a subscriber,  totally, utterly, objectively, provably, demonstratively, and absolutely for free.

Anyone who says differently is not only lying but are a detriment to the game for that might lead to some people not joining, returning, or remaining in the game based on such false pretenses.

I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but apparently once or 5 times isn't enough. - If you can get it for free, it's not pay-to-win.

This isn't a subject you can agree to disagree on, because it isn't subjective, as it is a true or not true statement.

Bling, you pay for and that is a reasonable expectation. But even bling in this game, in a great many instances, can be gotten for free with some time, work and effort to earn credits in game.

I hate to repeat myself, but, I have earned probably in the ball park of 60-70 billion credits in the last 6 months selling things I've crafted and decorations I get from deco-hunting and I always price the things I sell the absolute lowest at the time I list it on the GTN, often by many millions cheaper. I make all my credits using the GTN exclusively and I am never selling anything any where near the cap (1 billion). The most I ever sell anything for, and this is the exception, not the rule, is 100-120 million. Mostly its between 10-60 million and I never sell out, I always have to relist probably half or more the things I list on the GTN the next day.

You don't need to sell packs or gold augs or fleece people to make good profits.

This. There is literally money lying on the floor. All you have to do is run around and pick it up. 

 

12 hours ago, Zechalakazam said:

Reading this thread makes me remember back in 2014-ish, the most expensive stuff is Cathar Honor Sword for around 1.5m.

 

Got lucky with my crate when I got 1 Conqueror Lightsaber and some armor piece (probably Revan but I forgot). Which make me get the 10Mil cheevo.

 

Oh how the times has change xD

I ran around hoth for hours feeding those stupid tauntauns to save 1.5m credits. That seemed like so much at the time! 

Edited April 23, 2023 by StrikePrice

[FlatTax]

23 hours ago, Jdast said:

You also continue to ignore the fact that many players enjoy crafting and playing the GTN. Every, and I mean every MMORPG has a crafting system and a marketplace to reward those efforts. Guess what? Some people enjoy doing that.

Not at all.

I'm all for a thriving Crafting ecosystem.

I just don't want it monetized.

Edited April 23, 2023 by FlatTax