Please buff jugg/guardian tanks

[csilvajonas]

I've been a jugg main tank for 3 years now and i have to say, they're in a pretty bad state ever since 7.0. I don't see people using them at all on raids anymore, only powertechs and assassins and i'm not making this post aiming for a nerf on the other 2 tank classes (i can play all 3 and in my opinion, the other 2 are in a really good state atm, feels balanced with content). Here is my suggestion to the class:

- Bring back grit teeth reducing enraged defense cooldown. But nerf ED, idk, make each stack heal for 50% of what it is right now or give 6 stacks, not 12.

- Give us all defensive skills back when we're on tank spec. My suggestion is making one of the options in the skill tree be something like "increases the duration of reflect to 5 seconds, but increases its cooldown to 2 minutes" 3 seconds being the standard duration. "reduces the cooldown of blade blitz to 35 seconds, but increases the cooldown of reflect to 2 minutes", 45 seconds being the standard cooldown for blade blitz and even a third one like "enraged defense now gives 12 stacks and its cooldown is increased by 30 seconds". Idk, those are just ideas i had, but i feel sad for not using my jugg tanks on master mode operations as much as i used to and i'm not using them because sin and pt are in a much better place right now. The grit teeth + skill choice really hit us hard and were a big nerf imo. Hope Jackie/devs will read this, love the game, please buff my favorite class

- I can give examples of boss fights where the nerf really hit me, like Brontes master mode where reflect and blitz were really useful, Cartel Warlords when we leave Sunder as the last one to be killed, reflect and blitz were a great combo

Edited March 13, 2023 by csilvajonas

[AdjeYo]

Reflect and Blitz were a great combo for sure, and it's sad we can't have both anymore. Definitely hurts on a few fights specifically. Though it is very workable, similarly to how PT only really gets Energy Yield for short duration, big effect cooldowns. Imo it's only really Assassin that is way out of line with Shroud being pretty OP. (I don't think we'll ever have true balance of tanks until they address Shroud being able to completely skip mechanics).

However please don't revert Grit Teeth back to its previous state. It is considerably better now in PvE than it was before (reducing the cooldown of Saber Ward to about 1.5 minutes reliably is very strong), and it was broken to high hells in PvP. Enraged Defense is a lot more niche in PvE than Saber Ward. I'd much rather have the cooldown reduction on Saber Ward than having the old Grit Teeth back.

[afwhoefuwov]

I hope you meant buff defensively, as a tank should be, and not buff offensively.  In PvP, Jugg Tank / Guardian hits pretty hard when you gear as skank tank along with some stupid passives, e.g. deal 50% more damage to taunted target, intercede to target increase your attack...etc.  

I'd prefer to have more "support / tanking " passives instead of being able to hit 90k Crushing Blow.  Some examples I could think off:

- Crushing Blow give allies shield (this is already implemented). But perhaps also make Force Scream gives shield to allies as well ? So Sonic Barrier to you and allies. 

- Interceding grants damage reduction for tank (for dps it should be the damage bonus). 

- remove the cap on Saber Reflect. 

-  get some form of speed boost.  I would LOVE for dev to bring back the Chilling Scream / Freezing Force.  Better, they can make it so you can choose between Sweeping Slash (cause Trauma in PvP, easy AOE threat for PvE) and this speed boost.  

[Exocor]

Am 14.3.2023 um 18:58 schrieb afwhoefuwov:

- remove the cap on Saber Reflect. 

 

You all forgot the oneshotting of bosses like Calphayus, Tyrans, Kephess-Walker, Ciphas and the Writhing Horror we got back in the day? Uncapped Reflect is a really bad idea.

 

Jugg Tank is overall pretty good right now. There are only two things I would change:

 

1. Give us both, Reflect and Mad Dash at the same time.

2. Give us some kind of fast mobility option that doesn't require an enemy or allied target at where we want to go. My suggestion: Change Intercede into an "AoE"-type ability that you can place in an area, making you jump to that area and giving the Intercede-effect to all allies in that area.

 

[afwhoefuwov]

Agreed on the Saber Reflect.  For the AOE intercede, if they implement it, it would be very OP in PvP warzones.  Basically, you can just guard 1 target then Intercede to a group and all of your allies get the reduce damaged.  This is on top of the Crushing Blow that grants 5% DR to everyone.  I like it though, perhaps make player choose between an AOE Intercede and a single target Intercede - where the single target has no cooldowns, but you cant intercede to an already interceded player => has to wait for effects to end.  

Or just bring back Chilling Scream. 

[AdjeYo]

For mobility imo just add back movespeed increase to Enrage (or whatever its replacement is called exactly, it's still Enrage to me ). Juggs shouldn't be incredibly mobile, that's part of the Darth Vader like fantasy, Enrage just gave you that little bit when you needed it.

Reflect and Mad Dash at the same time would be great, but alternatively expand Reflect to include melee attacks as well or grant 100% chance via Blade Turning. It would make Reflect much more viable than right now, where Dash is almost always better due to its super low cooldown and more general applicability. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by AdjeYo

[Exocor]

vor einer Stunde schrieb AdjeYo:

For mobility imo just add back movespeed increase to Enrage (or whatever its replacement is called exactly, it's still Enrage to me ). Juggs shouldn't be incredibly mobile, that's part of the Darth Vader like fantasy, Enrage just gave you that little bit when you needed it.

Reflect and Mad Dash at the same time would be great, but alternatively expand Reflect to include melee attacks as well or grant 100% chance via Blade Turning. It would make Reflect much more viable than right now, where Dash is almost always better due to its super low cooldown and more general applicability. 

 

I've been thinking about this from a pure PvE perspective. And Juggs just need some kind of movement-speed-on-demand in order to become viable for endgame content.

 

For example, on Nahut NiM, the class- and DCD-framework would fit the boss very well - but it's really awkward to play the mechanics properly due to not really having a movement speed ability - a jump to a location of your choosing withing 30 meters would be very helpful - and that's not just for that Boss, but for most of the harder endgame encounters.

 

[LEEscoundral]

Yeah give jugs a force speed across the board please.. so slow lol

[SentinalMasterWW]

While I do think Guardian/Juggernauts should get some mobility back, as something like a force sprint. 

I do think in Return Guardian/Jug tanks should be nerfed in DMG. 

Keep in mind, I'm coming at this from a PVP perspective. 

Skank tanks, especially Guard/Jug tanks are really strong right now and hitting some insane DPS. 

I think a tradeoff of Mobility for DMG would be fair. 

[LEEscoundral]

I don't really come across skank tanks much but from a pve perspective they dont do too much damage with the tank gear on..

Edited October 25, 2023 by LEEscoundral

[ZUHFB]

bro its a juggernaut, it shouldn't get high mobility on low cd, its literally in the name

[AdjeYo]

Just gimme that Enrage speed boost back for all Jugg specs please. That's all I need for mobility.

[AFadedMemory]

On 4/27/2023 at 8:02 AM, Exocor said:

 

You all forgot the oneshotting of bosses like Calphayus, Tyrans, Kephess-Walker, Ciphas and the Writhing Horror we got back in the day? Uncapped Reflect is a really bad idea.

 

Jugg Tank is overall pretty good right now. There are only two things I would change:

 

1. Give us both, Reflect and Mad Dash at the same time.

2. Give us some kind of fast mobility option that doesn't require an enemy or allied target at where we want to go. My suggestion: Change Intercede into an "AoE"-type ability that you can place in an area, making you jump to that area and giving the Intercede-effect to all allies in that area.

 

Please don't change intercede, it's needed to solo the fleet datacron.

[Lenlo]

I think the easiest way to buff Guardian/Juggernaut is to decrease the cooldown on Blade Barrage and Force Sweep by 2 seconds. It's not much but would make our rotation marginally faster.

[gasxero]

BRING. BACK. GRIT TEETH.

It was a pain in the ass to craft only for it to be nerfed into to some pansy ass nonsense saber ward cooldown

[ZUHFB]

3 hours ago, gasxero said:

BRING. BACK. GRIT TEETH.

It was a pain in the ass to craft only for it to be nerfed into to some pansy ass nonsense saber ward cooldown

this thread is about buffs, not nerfs

grit teeth giving enraged defense cdr was only good in pvp, in both solo content and pve saber ward cdr is a lot better. since pvp has no competitve gamemode anymore it has (at least in my opinion) lost the reason to balance classes around it and therefor returning grit teeth to give cdr on ED would be a nerf, not a buff

[kirorx]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:48 AM, gasxero said:

BRING. BACK. GRIT TEETH.

It was a pain in the ass to craft only for it to be nerfed into to some pansy ass nonsense saber ward cooldown

I am with ya. It saved my bacon plenty of times. 
 

I can see how its not that useful in ops with a good healer; but Playing MM FPs with random people, it was amazing. 

I would love to see it back. 

 

Some people prefer the new way, maybe we can just have both tacticals available.