So why did so many quit the game over the years?

[Setta]

Not going to repeat what a lot of players have already said, they've done a great job describing the lack of content, and what seems like the directionless development of the game's system bouncing back and forth between RNG and an ungodly amount of currencies, not to mention wasting time on changes no one asked for, or ignoring player feedback until players leave in droves and they realize their F ups.

However all that aside I would like to add, that this is the only game that I know of that has not added a new class in it's existence. I understand that it's a lot of work, but seriously 10 years and nothing? Ok, we have combat specs now and maybe, one day something will come of it with new ones being added. However I feel like even before they could have just added a 4th spec or something to each class to liven things up over all this time. Even if they had to go class by class to make it happen. E.G give the JK / SW 2 new 4th specs, months later when they're ready give the RT / BH two new 4th specs. (For anyone confused on why 2 new specs, sub classes like jug / mara)

Oh and before someone says they can't even balance the specs they have. You're right, and they never will. Doesn't mean we shouldn't get something new to play either. Honestly if this wasn't a SW IP it would have busted a long time ago.

[SteveTheCynic]

4 minutes ago, Setta said:

However all that aside I would like to add, that this is the only game that I know of that has not added a new class in it's existence.

I guess you never played Star Trek Online, which has just three classes (medical officer, engineering officer, and the other one that I think is security officer), and that's probably all it will ever have.

Or The Secret World, which didn't even *have* classes.

Guild Wars 2 only added one, and probably won't add any more, preferring instead to add additional "elite specialisations", which are a bit like Advanced Classes in pre-5.0 SWTOR.

However, they did add one useful thing in 7.0 by decoupling your in-game combat-oriented class from your story class.  They can now add completely new combat styles without the extra cost of adding new stories, so it might happen.

[Setta]

1 hour ago, SteveTheCynic said:

I guess you never played Star Trek Online, which has just three classes (medical officer, engineering officer, and the other one that I think is security officer), and that's probably all it will ever have.

Or The Secret World, which didn't even *have* classes.

Nope haven't played those 2.  Played WoW, FF11 & 14, DCUO, Rift, Guild Wars 1&2, and probably a couple other ones I'm not recalling of the top of my head.  So while I haven't every single MMO, the ones I have, have added new classes / roles to play. 

[SteveTheCynic]

22 minutes ago, Setta said:

Nope haven't played those 2.  Played WoW, FF11 & 14, DCUO, Rift, Guild Wars 1&2, and probably a couple other ones I'm not recalling of the top of my head.  So while I haven't every single MMO, the ones I have, have added new classes / roles to play. 

Fair enough.  I just wanted it to be clear that it isn't universal.  On the other hand, adding new combat styles seems far more practical today than in the past, since it no longer requires new stories(1).  (New disciplines was always a possibility, of course.)

(1) Frankly, it never required new stories, since it just required a third Advanced class per base class, but now they can add *one* style for FUs (I lack inspiration here) and one for NFUs (techblade melee?) that both sides would be able to play.

[Jdast]

16 hours ago, felleto said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whGtoNzw-u0

A very enlightening video on the topic. Couldn't reccomend it enough.

Summary for Cynical Steve and others.

It's a solid video which identifies a number of long-raised issues: 1) lack of content; 2) lack of transparency; 3) oversensitivity to criticism; and 4) no knowledge of future direction. Not exactly new criticisms, but he presents it in a well-edited and coherent manner.

The issue I have with the video is that it is from July 2022, so over six months ago, when I shared many of the frustrations expressed in the video. I agree with the overall sentiment that the two years prior to the video were pretty disastrous -- so much so that I voted with my wallet and actually unsubscribed twice for extended periods and have still been boycotting cartel market purchases since December 2020.

One can attribute the decline in the last two years to lack of resources, but I place blame more on poor planning and design decisions. An overly ambitious development team, some of whom are no longer with Bioware, played Emperor Nero and decided to burn Rome to the ground and redesign core aspects of the game. Even if one agreed with those decisions (note: I did not), I think there is widespread agreement those decisions were implemented poorly. Simply put, you had a dev team that had misplaced priorities and bit off way more than they could chew. 

Now some (slightly) good news.

At risk of being accused of a white knighting fanboi, I'm pleased with the direction of the changes the game has made since 7.1 and, more importantly, 7.2. The gearing system is now vastly improved, particularly for alts. Granted and annoyingly, it is still convoluted and I had to go sites like Swtorista to understand it better, particulalry the part about guaranteeing which piece you upgrade.

By no means is this to suggest that SWTOR is in a great state, but I think the current dev team has a better understanding of what went wrong and are making incremental changes in the right direction, however small. As the Steam numbers are up some 35% in the last three months, I don't think I'm alone. Word of mouth matters, and the overall vibe I get is that 7.2 is pretty good in comparison to the last two years. So, while starting from a disastrous base, it as least trending in the right direction. 

Yes, slow content release will always be an issue for reasons we all know, but that's why I spend a great deal of time in ESO. I'm fortunate that I'm not such a Star Wars fan I only enjoy this game. 

Another Youtube video I recommend from 12 days ago or so is by someone named Evozor. It's long, but it is divided into labeled sections so you can go to those sections which interest you and skip others. FYI, I'm not Evozor and have no idea who he is or if he even participates on these forums. In any case, I found it to be a very balanced review noting the good, the bad, and the ugly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9tnPDqPUXw

Dasty

Edited January 29, 2023 by Jdast

[Kaedusz]

MMOs becoming a niche genre is a major reason. If there is more content and all other mmo reasons that were mentioned already, are done, the population would not go up much imo.

Also Star Wars fans seem to not be  very much into rpgs and these types of games. Not to mention that of those that are, some kotor 1/2 purists don't like how the story went or don't like that it's an mmo which goes back to the first reason.

 

Its more or at least equal part structural and historic forces, not something the devs in particular did or did not do.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kaedusz

[Nee-Elder]

41 minutes ago, Jdast said:

 I'm not such a Star Wars fan

I only enjoy this game.

For over 10 years i've been trying to understand players like you, Jdast.

i simply cannot fathom anyone ever bothering to spend time & money on SWTOR if they don't even like STAR WARS. 

Seems very odd to me.

[Kaedusz]

31 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

For over 10 years i've been trying to understand players like you, Jdast.

i simply cannot fathom anyone ever bothering to spend time & money on SWTOR if they don't even like STAR WARS. 

Seems very odd to me.

I'm like the guy you quoted, i like kotor 1/2 and swtor cus they are made by Bioware, and they are Bioware style rpgs. Due to this i like the Old Republic EU. Not a fan of the movie era SW, or the movies much, though they are not  unenjoyable to watch only due to them being linked to the games.

For example in the Vader hallway scene in Rogue One, in my head that is a tribute to the Emperor's Wrath or something.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Kaedusz

[OlBuzzard]

6 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

I guess you never played Star Trek Online, which has just three classes (medical officer, engineering officer, and the other one that I think is security officer), and that's probably all it will ever have.

Or The Secret World, which didn't even *have* classes.

Guild Wars 2 only added one, and probably won't add any more, preferring instead to add additional "elite specialisations", which are a bit like Advanced Classes in pre-5.0 SWTOR.

However, they did add one useful thing in 7.0 by decoupling your in-game combat-oriented class from your story class.  They can now add completely new combat styles without the extra cost of adding new stories, so it might happen.

I agree .. somewhat with regards to the class idea!  Maybe?  I was kind of hoping that we were simply able to change out a weapon (and the obvious attached skill to go with it).  I'm not so sure about what we actually got.  Truthfully, I haven't messed with any of the crossover stuff.  That doesn't mean that I'm either right or wrong ...  just my personal take on the subject.

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, Jdast said:

Summary for Cynical Steve and others.

It's a solid video which identifies a number of long-raised issues: 1) lack of content ; 2) lack of transparency; 3) oversensitivity to criticism; and 4) no knowledge of future direction. Not exactly new criticisms, but he presents it in a well-edited and coherent manner.

The issue I have with the video is that it is from July 2022, so over six months ago, when I shared many of the frustrations expressed in the video. I agree with the overall sentiment that the two years prior to the video were pretty disastrous -- so much so that I voted with my wallet and actually unsubscribed twice for extended periods and have still been boycotting cartel market purchases since December 2020.

One can attribute the decline in the last two years to lack of resources, but I place blame more on poor planning and design decisions. An overly ambitious development team, some of whom are no longer with Bioware, played Emperor Nero and decided to burn Rome to the ground and redesign core aspects of the game. Even if one agreed with those decisions (note: I did not), I think there is widespread agreement those decisions were implemented poorly. Simply put, you had a dev team that had misplaced priorities and bit off way more than they could chew. 

Now some (slightly) good news.

At risk of being accused of a white knighting fanboi, I'm pleased with the direction of the changes the game has made since 7.1 and, more importantly, 7.2. The gearing system is now vastly improved , particularly for alts. Granted and annoyingly, it is still convoluted and I had to go sites like Swtorista to understand it better, particulalry the part about guaranteeing which piece you upgrade.

By no means is this to suggest that SWTOR is in a great state, but I think the current dev team has a better of understanding of what went wrong and are making incremental changes in the right direction, however small. As the Steam numbers are up some 35% in the last three months, I don't think I'm alone. Word of mouth matters, and the overall vibe I get is that 7.2 is pretty good in comparison to the last two years. So, while starting from a disastrous base, it as least trending in the right direction. 

Yes, slow content release will always be an issue for reasons we all know, but that's why I spend a great deal of time in ESO. I'm fortunate that I'm not such a Star Wars fan I only enjoy this game. 

Another Youtube video I recommend from 12 days ago or so is by someone named Evozor. It's long, but it is divided into labeled sections so you can go to those sections which interest you and skip others. FYI, I'm not Evozor and have no idea who he is or if he even participates on these forums. In any case, I found it to be a very balanced review noting the good, the bad, and the ugly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9tnPDqPUXw

Dasty

As usual .. very level head approach!

For me (as usual) I'm in the doghouse from time to time.  And something (that one or two) may not have figured out by now..  I flatly failed obedience school! 😉

You know the drill:
** SIT !!!
** Lay down!!
** Roll over
** "PLAY DEAD"

(Like that's going to happen)

BTW...  I agree 7.2 was a step in the right direction!  
@Nee-Elder ... don't give up on your sandbox idea!  Heck ...  I'm game!  And (ironically) @SteveTheCynic you are the one person to keep asking "those kinds of questions" (let's face it ... you're REALLY good at it).  I wish we could get Trixx engaged in he PvP part of it.  Probably others as well.  These names come to mind quickly.  @Jdast.. you game??  Check out the suggestion box! 

There are always possibilities!  

@Nee-Elder  ...  (sorry bud..  don't mean to embarrass ya!!)

[OlBuzzard]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:15 PM, SteveTheCynic said:

True (the bolded part), but BioWare could do *much* better at providing new content.  In a very real sense, there can never be enough game-provided content to satisy the truly, monstrously, fully-engaged players, but the studio can do much better than it has since the end of KotFE/ET.

Agreed!!!  (not sure how I missed this earlier .. sorry!  My bad!)

[Shayddow]

the old game that the hero-engine came from (that they use for SWTOR) that I used to play back in the 1990s called Dragonrealms, had Moon mages, Warrior Mages, Barbarians, Thieves, Traders, Clerics, Paladins, & Bards when I started (8 classes). Later on they added a 9th class, Necromancers. And this was a much smaller budget (they had "volunteer" gamemasters, not paid developers) game. Granted, it wasn't graphic, it was text, and obviously not voiced. But it CAN be done.

For SWTOR, I think 2 classes should be added, to keep things even: 1 force-using & 1 non-force-using.

On the Republic Side I would add SIS agent. This would be similar to the agent story imperial side, except you would be working for the Republic instead of the empire. You would also have personal goals to work towards - part of what makes the IMP story so good.

On the Imperial Side I would add something similar (but not actually Zakuul) to the Zakuulan folks that don't go to Korriban, that gain strength not from dark side or light side but through devotion to a particular person/deity/something-something starwars.

[OlBuzzard]

10 minutes ago, Shayddow said:

the old game that the hero-engine came from (that they use for SWTOR) that I used to play back in the 1990s called Dragonrealms, had Moon mages, Warrior Mages, Barbarians, Thieves, Traders, Clerics, Paladins, & Bards when I started (8 classes). Later on they added a 9th class, Necromancers. And this was a much smaller budget (they had "volunteer" gamemasters, not paid developers) game. Granted, it wasn't graphic, it was text, and obviously not voiced. But it CAN be done.

For SWTOR, I think 2 classes should be added, to keep things even: 1 force-using & 1 non-force-using.

On the Republic Side I would add SIS agent. This would be similar to the agent story imperial side, except you would be working for the Republic instead of the empire. You would also have personal goals to work towards - part of what makes the IMP story so good.

On the Imperial Side I would add something similar (but not actually Zakuul) to the Zakuulan folks that don't go to Korriban, that gain strength not from dark side or light side but through devotion to a particular person/deity/something-something starwars.

Something like this MIGHT work!  It needs to be updated (since we now have a few changes in combat styles).  But I still think the idea is initially there!

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/881183-force-sensitive-black-ops-special-quotforcesquot-class/#comment-9402691

[SteveTheCynic]

4 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

And (ironically) @SteveTheCynic you are the one person to keep asking "those kinds of questions" (let's face it ... you're REALLY good at it).

Aw shucks, stop, you're making me blush!

[SteveTheCynic]

3 hours ago, Shayddow said:

For SWTOR, I think 2 classes should be added, to keep things even: 1 force-using & 1 non-force-using.

The Combat Styles thing in 7.0 was surely there in part to allow BioWare to add more *combat* classes rather than more *story* classes, since combat classes are surely less costly to develop...  (In addition, if they wanted to add more origins, there would be *four*, not just two - one Pub NFU, one Imp NFU, one Pub FU, one Imp NFU - and that ship was sunk in its harbour long before it was able to sail.)

[jedipattawan]

What if they added in a few class stories per patch here and there?  They wouldn't have to do all classes, but what if there was simply various fun side class stories to do that were made?  You know a bit of love for the classes here and there. 

In the least it could follow along with their new force user and non force user setup as two different story approaches with some different branching options depending on your combat style.  

Although I could imagine this alone wouldn't bring in tons of players, but it could be an interesting start as a part of seasonal style story content in addition to galactic seasons.

Edited January 30, 2023 by jedipattawan

[TrixxieTriss]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:02 PM, felleto said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whGtoNzw-u0

A very enlightening video on the topic. Couldn't reccomend it enough.

Have to say I agree with most of what this video says (not all, but most). 

Much of what’s said is the same as what I’ve been saying for several years. 
I think the core msg is the BioWare Devs stopped listening to players wants & needs.

Of course this was made halfway through last year when the game was at its lowest point in the history of the game.

Things have certainly started to improve since then. 

[Darkrebellord]

Well main reason me and my friend have stop playing lack of new storyline and we sick of daily and conquests waiting around to try and get into operations,

We also sick of lopsided game plays in warzones and poor rewards you get for level 80 characters as well as receiving gear not for your class and one that is always bound to character.

[Darkrebellord]

What i would like to see is chapters storyline where you can play as group of 2 or 4 where it can be saved at the stages and completed when your next team up.

Not this solo storyline all the time which is boring and if you get behind your friends or guild members it prevents you helping them out with other higher level stuff or if you are both on the same storyline you can not enter their phase until you even complete yours or abandon it.

i am also not a fan of level syncing its the pits after spending years getting my characters to highest level then was hit with this level syncing on lower level planets.

I also gotten tired of just receiving pets and mounts as a reward especially from the cartel market. 

[SteveTheCynic]

10 hours ago, jedipattawan said:

What if they added in a few class stories per patch here and there?  They wouldn't have to do all classes,

Can you imagine the outrage if they released new story content but only for Troopers and Sith Inquisitors, with nothing else for any others?  (Even if it was stated very clearly, and multiple times, that they would be adding others later, the same outrage would still be there.)

 

[GeneralGyro]

6 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Can you imagine the outrage if they released new story content but only for Troopers and Sith Inquisitors, with nothing else for any others?  (Even if it was stated very clearly, and multiple times, that they would be adding others later, the same outrage would still be there.)

 

who cares what swtor players get mad over of all communities. they should be happy there is any content coming at all. and they should be patient.

Edited January 30, 2023 by GeneralGyro

[SteveTheCynic]

5 minutes ago, GeneralGyro said:

who cares what swtor players get mad over of all communities. they should be happy there is any content coming at all. and they should be patient.

The studio should care if the outrage leads to people quitting and not paying subscriptions any more.

[OlBuzzard]

11 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

The studio should care if the outrage leads to people quitting and not paying subscriptions any more.

Agreed!  Several of us warned that things were starting to spiral out of control at or about the time SoV was released.  And things continued out of control (or at least it seemed that way).

With 7.2 things are defiantly looking up!  Hopefully the PvP area will get whatever it needs there and the rest of SWTOR will begin to improve once again!

[jedipattawan]

5 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Can you imagine the outrage if they released new story content but only for Troopers and Sith Inquisitors, with nothing else for any others?  (Even if it was stated very clearly, and multiple times, that they would be adding others later, the same outrage would still be there.)

 

Yeah I guess people will always be upset but each patch could be themed around certain things and areas I guess. 

Idk though, it's not like we can dictate how they make the game though.  I remember back around the first year of this game the devs were saying something along the lines of not needing to ask the community how to develop the game which I found funny.  Imo a good dev team for a game always keeps in touch with their community and listens to what they want and even asks them to help in regards to new content for the game.

Edited January 30, 2023 by jedipattawan

[OlBuzzard]

13 minutes ago, jedipattawan said:

Yeah I guess people will always be upset but each patch could be themed around certain things and areas I guess. 

Idk though, it's not like we can dictate how they make the game though.  I remember back around the first year of this game the devs were saying something along the lines of not needing to ask the community how to develop the game which I found funny.  Imo a good dev team for a game always keeps in touch with their community and listens to what they want and even asks them to help in regards to new content for the game.

People who are the wisest managers tend to listen to good council! (Even if we are not dictating all of the details of the finished goods!)

[/two thumbs up]