is it time for one US Megaserver ?

[TrixxieTriss]

14 hours ago, DWho said:

Looking at these one at a time, my opinion is the following

1) Implementation

There are a couple ways to implement the cloud servers themselves. They could merge all five servers into one, maintain the geographic distribution of servers, or leave them the way they are (5 servers). If they merge them all into one server, the people not on the continent where the physical cloud servers are, will see a lag increase as there is just that much more internet to go through to connect and access the data. If they maintain the current geo-locations (US and Europe) lag probably will not change, or at least the average lag across all players will not change as some players will see improved performance and some degraded performance based on where they are located. If they leave things as they are (5 "cloud" servers), there won't be any change much like maintaining only two geo-located servers. One thing to keep in mind about cloud servers is that they are not necessarily the same hardware all the time and their locations could move around (for example during physical server maintenance - repairing components, etc).

2) Geo-location

Most likely they would be in North America, though they could maintain European "cloud" servers as well. The hitch there is each one of those servers would be a different instance (not to be confused with in game instances) and thus would have an incremental cost increase associated with them.

3) Performance

Performance of the new "cloud" servers will be entirely related to where you are compared to where the physical servers are. The amount traffic and quality of the internet that you have to go through will determine what performance issues you see. It is extremely unlikely that the cloud servers (connected physical server farms) will be on a dedicated high quality connection. There is also a small but not insignificant amount of processing overhead required to operate "cloud" servers that you don't have with dedicated servers.

4) Cost

Cost savings is the main reason to go to the "cloud". Your hope as a business is that the cost of maintaining servers is reduced and that performance is not significantly degraded. If you had one server farm located in a location near you, you would see little change or perhaps even a little improvement due to better hardware. If there are several server farms (the most common reason to go to the cloud in the first place) you will see a decrease in performance in some regions and an increase in performance in others. All in All you hope it is a wash. This allows you to allocate your resources in a different manner (in the case of Bioware, those saving could either be re-invested in the game or go to corporate profits)

Cloud Servers and 64-bit architecture (which is basically a requirement to use cloud servers in the first place) are cost saving measures for Bioware, how they choose to use those savings is unknown (though they have indicated they hope it will improve the game, which is at least somewhat positive news).

Sadly, as usual, I expect players like me in the APAC will bare the brunt of any degraded performance issues over anyone in North America or Western Europe.

I hope I’m wrong, I really do, but past BioWare actions have shown they think APAC players are the most disposable players of all 😞

[TrixxieTriss]

10 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Welcome back Trixxie and Happy New Year!

Grim <3's the Trixxie.

Same to you 😎

[SteveTheCynic]

4 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I hope I’m wrong, I really do, but past BioWare actions have shown they think APAC players are the most disposable players of all 😞

Probably because they are/were the least numerous compared to the other regions, rather than because they are/were from APAC, but yes.

[OlBuzzard]

15 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Well, if their analytics show a problem with population there, a discount on transfers would be welcome. On the other hand, they might not want to make it too tempting, lest lots of people transfer off SS and thereby the loss of a bulk of players might make it worse [assuming its that bad.]

Good point!!
In any case ... I'm genuinely hoping that as a result of this discussion (one of the best I've seen in just about any forum) will demonstrate to the team and perhaps will also precipitate an appropriate announcement or in depth reply that could properly outline what is taking place.  Yeah ...  I get it.  That's probably a stretch.  But then again...  maybe not!  (Particularly given how this discussion has IMO brought out the better part of us all as a community.  THAT sort of thing just doesn't happen very often!)

Sure ...  we disagree on some of the points being made.  But, even there ...  it's been well done!!

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

7 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

(Particularly given how this discussion has IMO brought out the better part of us all as a community.  THAT sort of thing just doesn't happen very often!)

Sure ...  we disagree on some of the points being made.  But, even there ...  it's been well done!!

I think we owe a lot of that to you. While I find myself agreeing with you most of the time, I tend to take a bit more of a hard line than you. (And that's not necessarily a good thing =p) To anyone who's been reading these forums for a while [9 years in my case] you often serve as a voice of reason. You have the ability of seeing things from both sides, even when you are clearly on one side or the other.

You're kinda like, and I say this with respect =], the wise old man on the mountain.

If Bioware is going to look for community speakers for a cue, people like you, Trixxie, SteveTheCynic, should definitely be among them in my opinion.

Edited January 15, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[OlBuzzard]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:07 PM, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

I think we owe a lot of that to you. While I find myself agreeing with you most of the time, I tend to take a bit more of a hard line than you. (And that's not necessarily a good thing =p) To anyone who's been reading these forums for a while [9 years in my case] you often serve as a voice of reason. You have the ability of seeing things from both sides, even when you are clearly on one side or the other.

You're kinda like, and I say this with respect =], the wise old man on the mountain.

If Bioware is going to look for community speakers for a cue, people like you, Trixxie, SteveTheCynic, should definitely be among them in my opinion.

Hmmm

The old man part ... I get that!  (Not much I can do avoid it!) 🤦‍♂️

As for rest:  Illgot / Trixx / SteveTheCynic/DWho/Nee-Elder/ Dariv (sorry about the spelling) ..  and yes ... you as well.  There are many others (I'm certain that I've missed a bunch of names that should be listed so I'll stop right there.)  There are so many that REALLY DO make a difference.

As for this thread I really do appreciate the nature/direction this one has taken.  Come to think of it... Using the outline that DWho started I'm wondering if we could collectively make a list of questions that we'd REALLY like to see answered.  It might work ...  it might not.  But I'd like to at least give it a shot.
** Implementation:  How many servers?  The Cloud?
** Geo-location(s):  How many locations?  (which tends to work hand in hand with the Implementation)
** Performance ?? Issues?  Potential benefits / negatives (If any).
** Cost savings??  More than likely this is one of the strongest points.  (Frankly IF THE SYSTEM WORKS...  then this can be a good thing.
** Mergers??  Coming or not?
** What about groups such as PvP / RP ??

I'm quite certain that there are more good questions that need to be asked / answered.  Add to this list.  Improve on it!  Make it better!

I hope this makes sense!

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[eabevella]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:31 PM, TrixxieTriss said:

I’ve not checked out the PTS for a while. But I can tell you my server Lag from Australian East coast to SF or SS is 230-250ms & 320-340ms to DM.

If they decide to locate a Cloud Hub in APAC or even the US west, it would reduce my lag. But if the decided to locate it in Europe, the game would be nearly unplayable for anyone from my region.

My ping from my location (Taiwan) to SF/SS/DM are all ~280ms.

Maybe they'll rent a cloud server in Korea so I can enjoy 50ms ping lol

(something something are built on hope)

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, eabevella said:

My ping from my location (Taiwan) to SF/SS/DM are all ~280ms.

Maybe they'll rent a cloud server in Korea so I can enjoy 50ms ping lol

(something something are built on hope)

How about Singapore? Then we can both have 50-100ms Ping 

[JediQuaker]

15 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

  It might work ...  it might not.  But I'd like to at least give it a shot.
** Implementation:  How many servers?  The Cloud?
** Geo-location(s):  How many locations?  (which tends to work hand in hand with the Implementation)
** Performance ?? Issues?  Potential benefits / negatives (If any).
** Cost savings??  More than likely this is one of the strongest points.  (Frankly IF THE SYSTEM WORKS...  then this can be a good thing.
** Mergers??  Coming or not?
** What about groups such as PvP / RP ??

I'm quite certain that there are more good questions that need to be asked / answered.  Add to this list.  Improve on it!  Make it better!

 

It's a great set of questions, but you're neglecting the fact that all this was speculation on the part of the OP. BW hasn't definitely said they are going to merge the servers, so any questions about it are somewhat pointless at this time. 🙂

[eabevella]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

How about Singapore? Then we can both have 50-100ms Ping 

Deal! My Singapore guildies can have 10ms Ping. Win-win 8D

PS: I have no idea how cloud servers work but jokes aside, I do hope BW considering their literally world-wide player base.

[SteveTheCynic]

5 hours ago, eabevella said:

Deal! My Singapore guildies can have 10ms Ping. Win-win 8D

PS: I have no idea how cloud servers work but jokes aside, I do hope BW considering their literally world-wide player base.

May I direct your attention toward my earlier comment:

On 1/15/2023 at 2:18 PM, SteveTheCynic said:

Probably because they are/were the least numerous compared to the other regions, rather than because they are/were from APAC, but yes.

So maybe, at best.

[OlBuzzard]

7 hours ago, JediQuaker said:

It's a great set of questions, but you're neglecting the fact that all this was speculation on the part of the OP. BW hasn't definitely said they are going to merge the servers, so any questions about it are somewhat pointless at this time. 🙂

Yes ... and no!

Yes:  a part of what OP was discussing would be speculation.
NO:  It's not speculation with regard to the following:
** 64 bit format coming soon (Not engine ... but as was announced and placed on the PTS for testing!
** "The Cloud".  This raises additional questions.  Those questions then are centered around those points that have been discussed by many in this thread.  Those questions (and implications) definitely have created a gray area that could easily be cleared up .... BY the right person(s). 
That is the context from which I have continued to ask the questions that I have proposed.  Additionally, within that SAME context "server merge(s)"  (particularly those in the US) equally an important part of that discussion.

Just my $.02 worth for today!  (If it's worth THAT much).

 

[KathiosLorano]

I mean already have massive servers as it is. Doubt we need mega servers imo. 

[eabevella]

5 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

May I direct your attention toward my earlier comment:

So maybe, at best.

I do think there are more of us than french players 😛

Not to say they should have bad ping or whatever... it's a joke.

Mostly I'm only curious about what the changes will be, hopefully it will be good changes overall.

[blacksilverlord]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:35 PM, illgot said:

do you even know how retaining your name works on a server merge?

Here is what you said translates to:

"I would rather see the game lose thousands of players because of dead servers than merge servers and take the chance I could lose my name."

Satele Shan is far from dead - nope, not buying it.  What you said translates to: I don't want to pay for a character transfer and want Star Forge players to pay the burden of me transferring and keeping my names just because I'm entitled and think I don't feel special on Shan anymore.  >_> .  Shan isn't dead, p-lease; be honest.

[illgot]

4 hours ago, blacksilverlord said:

Satele Shan is far from dead - nope, not buying it.  What you said translates to: I don't want to pay for a character transfer and want Star Forge players to pay the burden of me transferring and keeping my names just because I'm entitled and think I don't feel special on Shan anymore.  >_> .  Shan isn't dead, p-lease; be honest.

In October to November I was seeing populations of less than 100 on SS Imp fleet during prime time EST on the weekends. There would be 2 instances of fleet, one depopulating and one with less than 100 players. I primary on SF and during that same time was seeing 3-4 fleets usually with at least one full, one over 100 people, another with less than 100 and one depopulating.  The numbers you are seeing now are due to holiday subscribers who will be gone by the end of February. Usually December is the busiest time for SWTOR outside of major builds.

No one here is trying to convince the devs a server merger is needed, devs have the metrics and already know which servers have unsustainable populations. Considering that I have only ever seen server transfer discounts before server merges, we may have some form of server merge by the end of this year. Players like me are trying to convince others to prep before this happens.

Nothing players say will have any effect on what the devs decide when it comes to server merges. I hope most players understand this.

What confuses is me why some players here are trying so hard to convince other players that server merges aren't needed.

Edited January 17, 2023 by illgot

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, illgot said:

The numbers you are seeing now are due to holiday subscribers who will be gone by the end of February.

Could you please supply me with the make and model of your crystal ball that has allowed you to divine that the numbers you are saying now are due to holiday subscribers [which makes no sense at all considering you subscribe at month long intervals and the holidays last for a scant few days] and that they will all be gone by the end of February.

Yet again, we see people coming on here who play on SS and say that they don't agree with the people who are saying that SS is dead and dying and needs a merger with StarForge.

So someone's lying here.

I can see reasons why people would lie about it being dead and dying, there is something to be gained by pushing that narrative [free transfers at StarForger's expense and being on the most populated server in the game].

What I can't see is why people who play on SS would come on here and lie about its state because if it's dead/dying that would certainly negatively effect their play. Most people wouldn't want to see the server they are playing on get worse and die.

Where I do agree with you is about server mergers not being up to us. Bioware has the numbers and they know the truth. So, that being the case, I'm not really sure why people are coming on here to say that SS needs to be merged with StarForge and making a case for it being needed, if the Devs are already have the numbers and as you said "They will merge the smallest into the largest which means I'll be renaming all 40 of my characters."

Doesn't matter if some people are coming on here trying to convince others that a server merger isn't needed, because like you said, it doesn't matter what we say, and "They will merge the smallest into the largest".

It's already in the bag, right?

I feel a little bad for the devs. They're about to have a whole lot of very unhappy customers raging here on the forums very soon over a server merger that likely isn't needed and most certainly isn't wanted by a majority of the players on Star Forge.

Not really tho, because they do have the numbers and based on their analytics, I don't think they are going to be merging the servers.

Generally, you don't find massive upgrades and new content being introduced when you're about to shut down an entire server due to a lack of players and ever declining amounts of subscribers.

[illgot]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Could you please supply me with the make and model of your crystal ball that has allowed you to divine that the numbers you are saying now are due to holiday subscribers [which makes no sense at all considering you subscribe at month long intervals and the holidays last for a scant few days] and that they will all be gone by the end of February.

Yet again, we see people coming on here who play on SS and say that they don't agree with the people who are saying that SS is dead and dying and needs a merger with StarForge.

So someone's lying here.

I can see reasons why people would lie about it being dead and dying, there is something to be gained by pushing that narrative [free transfers at StarForger's expense and being on the most populated server in the game].

What I can't see is why people who play on SS would come on here and lie about its state because if it's dead/dying that would certainly negatively effect their play. Most people wouldn't want to see the server they are playing on get worse and die.

Where I do agree with you is about server mergers not being up to us. Bioware has the numbers and they know the truth. So, that being the case, I'm not really sure why people are coming on here to say that SS needs to be merged with StarForge and making a case for it being needed, if the Devs are already have the numbers and as you said "They will merge the smallest into the largest which means I'll be renaming all 40 of my characters."

Doesn't matter if some people are coming on here trying to convince others that a server merger isn't needed, because like you said, it doesn't matter what we say, and "They will merge the smallest into the largest".

It's already in the bag, right?

I feel a little bad for the devs. They're about to have a whole lot of very unhappy customers raging here on the forums very soon over a server merger that likely isn't needed and most certainly isn't wanted by a majority of the players on Star Forge.

Not really tho, because they do have the numbers and based on their analytics, I don't think they are going to be merging the servers.

Generally, you don't find massive upgrades and new content being introduced when you're about to shut down an entire server due to a lack of players and ever declining amounts of subscribers.

My crystal ball is logging onto fleet, I use Imperial characters because Imperial Fleet has the largest concentration of players in any single instance. Open up your map to check the number of instances. You will see a drop down menu above the bottom left hand corner mini map of the map window (now Alt + M) if there is more than one instance. This drop down menu tells you how many instances of that map are open and allows you to transfer to the different instances.

Red instances are blocked from entry either because they are full or depopulating.  Full instances have hit the limit of 120 players, and depopulating can have as few as 5 of less players from the few times I have been in one. The only way to tell if a red instance is full or depopulating is trying to transfer to that instance.  You will receive a system message telling you why transferring is not possible.

To check the population numbers in an instance takes a bit more work. You have to set up Utility Bar 1 or Utility Bar 2 to display "WHO" to see the population of the instance you are in. Record the count in your current instance then drop down into the next instance and record that count. Add in 120 people for any instances that are full and add in the total players you surveyed jumping instances.

I primary on Star Forge and have been playing on that server for a few years now. I left a bunch of characters on Satele Shan, Leviathan, Tulak Hord, and Darth Malgus, but they aren't worth transferring as they are mostly used for Galactic Season and account wide unlocks. I have 27 characters on Star Forge and my legacy on Star Forge has more unlocks and achievements than any other server.

My only personal gain from combining servers is that my characters will be on one server, and my strongholds/decorations will get added together. I play maybe 10 characters on Star Forge in any given week so I'm not eager to end up beyond my character limit and have to sort through names and delete characters before I can make new ones. My strongholds and decorations being added together doesn't mean a lot to me considering my idea of decorating is usually a GTN, mail box, and banks. Maybe a vender if I'm feeling spunky.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by illgot

[TrixxieTriss]

Numbers did drop drastically across the game before 7.2 was released. I’ve been tracking it daily even when unsubbed. 

They only started to pick up over Xmas & NY. Since then, the games gained 20-25% more players from its lowest point in October

History has shown those numbers will start to drop again during February. The only reason that didn’t happen last year was because the DLC was delayed from Dec ‘21 to Feb ‘22.

Seasonal player shift is a thing. It happens every year. Sadly, every year we don’t get back as many as we lose throughout the year.

Generally speaking, the seasonal player shift goes like this:

November-December-January spike up

Febuary-March-April steady decline 

May-June spikes up for 4th May 

July-August-Sept depends on DLC

October steady decline 

Unfortunately last year was a bad year for player retention due to many developmental & game issues, which led to the lowest player levels in the games history.

Hopefully that’s behind us now & the devs are on the right track to build up the player base again & concentrate more on long term player retention instead of thinking loyal players grow on trees & are disposable.

 

 

 

 

 

[OlBuzzard]

Diminishing numbers has been around for a while now.  Probably since JUS.  Yeah... I remember the whole KotFE/ET thing. [/facepalm].  
That being said ...  The gray areas of the server mergers IMO still need to be addressed, (And there are several as has been mentioned beforehand).  I understand the plight of the PvP players.  Yet on the other hand there are others to consider as well (RP for example).

Another example (just took place a couple of days ago to me personally).  SF server ... Manaan daily area.  This is an open area.  There were more than 15 of us (didn't get the exact number due to the confusion of so many in one spot).  Which was the problem.  Trying to get the numbers in to complete the daily stuff was ridiculous.  We were tripping over each other "every few feet" (sorry but that is the best way I know how to put it).  And now we need to make that even more crowded?  

For me personally I just plan on spending a lot more time getting the same task done.  But I'm currious ..  just how many others would feel that way?  Maybe?  Maybe NOT!  IMO this is one of the simpler matters to sort out.  There are others to be certain.  Once the trigger is pulled on something like a server merger ... that's it!  DONE!  No going back.

For now...  I'm standing pat with my conclusion (for now).  Individually ... transfer to SF (or perhaps to SH if someone would prefer).   Also:  I'm still open to that 3rd option.  There could be another answer that none of us have thought of just yet.

Edited January 17, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[OlBuzzard]

@illgot  I owe you an apology!  One of the top posters in this thread ... and yet I forgot to mention you earlier.  I did go back and edit that response in this thread!  Sure we may stand on opposite sides of the fence in regards to the merger ... but that does not mean that I don't respect and appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

For example the whole thing you posted about the names ...  Not sure about that!  And I'm quite sure that's on me!
** I'm still skeptical of such matters (not your fault).
** And I'm a bit stubborn on top of that! (as a result of not understanding the entire mater .... which creates additional skepticism).

In any case ... my apologies.  I really didn't forget your part ...  I just forgot to list your name ???

[/facepalm] ....  I'm gonna stop before I really manage to get BOTH feet STUCK in my mouth this AM !

Edited January 17, 2023 by OlBuzzard
apparently I can't type this AM either [/facepalm yet again]

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

26 minutes ago, illgot said:

Log onto fleet. I use Imperial characters because Imperial Fleet has the largest concentration of players in any single instance. Open up your map and check how many instances there are. You will usually see a drop down menu above the bottom left hand corner mini map of the map window (now Alt + M) is there is more than one instance. This tells you how many instances of that map are open.

And where does it say how many of them are there due to holiday subscribers and how many of them will be gone by the end of February? 😜

That methodology is flawed and cannot accurately show you what we are looking for.

What about all the players in PVP matches, Operations, GSF, in Flashpoints, Space Missions, on all the Planets, on their ships, in story instances, RPing, In strongholds, on Guildships, in Star Fortresses, doing chapters?

And while I agree with you that there are definitely more peeps Impside, you are nonetheless literally discounting the entirety of Pubside like that still wouldn't be a substantial amount of players currently active on a server.

All the players on Pubside who are in PVP matches, Operations, GSF, in Flashpoints, Space Missions, on all the Planets, on their ships, in story instances, RPing, In strongholds, on Guildships, in Star Fortresses, doing chapters, all of them count too dude.

So in your estimations, you counted only the people currently on fleet, and only those on Impside, and you think that is in any way, shape or form, a reasonable reflection on the total amount of people playing on the entire server at that time, when you didnt even take pubside into account at all?

Even if you did take pubside's Fleet count into account, it would still be a totally ineffective method at trying to gauge the amount of players currently active on the entire server.

Most people logged in at any given time are NOT on Fleet.

Be rest assured that when Bioware checks their analytics for active player population counts on a server, they most definitely will not only be counting those players who are currently on Impside Fleet, will defiantly also be counting all the players also in PVP matches, Operations, GSF, in Flashpoints, Space Missions, on all the Planets, on their ships, in story instances, RPing, In strongholds, on Guildships, in Star Fortresses, doing chapters, and than they will also check all those places on Pubside too and than add them all together to get their head counts.

If the methodology used here to gauge population counts here from people saying SS is Dead/dying are based on similar methods, not taking all these places into account and both sides of the fence [Impside/Pubside], I am more against server merges than I've ever been before.

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with people on SS looking out for their perceived best interests, even if those are against mine and others on Star Forge, we are all a little selfish. I don't even consider strangers putting their best interests before those of strangers selfish if they are based on an honest state of affairs. I just don't find the basis for those claims being made all that credible and I don't think in many cases the calls for a server merger, are based on the belief that SS is dead or dying, I think it based on wanting free character transfers and a desire to be on the biggest and badassest server in the game.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

History has shown those numbers will start to drop again during February. The only reason that didn’t happen last year was because the DLC was delayed from Dec ‘21 to Feb ‘22.

Because it's you Trixxie and Grim <3s the Trixxie, and also the Old wise man on the Mountain [with respect =] ], I'll accept that as a truth that such patterns have existed in the past. I really don't pay much attention to such things as long as I keep on seeing tons of people running around and I personally never noticed a decline in the amount of people I see running around.

As I assume that is the case across all servers, I still find their methodology for gauging reasonable head counts across an entire server wanting and unrealistic.

Bioware has the correct numbers, and they will draw the necessary conclusions from them. If they say a merger is necessary, than it's necessary and I'll accept in without complaint, whether I like it or not [which I wouldn't].

Until they say otherwise, my opinion on the matter will stay as is, that being it doesn't matter in the slightest. =]

* Point to Illgot. ☝️

Edited January 17, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx
Because Grim can't spell for shizzit even with spell check.

[WHTJunior]

I'd much rather see them cluster the servers, where the queues are joined, but the servers remain separate and distinct. Add a group finder for planetary heroics, general questing, world bosses, etc that crosses the server lines, but for day-to-day missions, just keep that to the original server.

Edited January 17, 2023 by WHTJunior

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, WHTJunior said:

I'd much rather see them cluster the servers, where the queues are joined, but the servers remain separate and distinct. Add a group finder for planetary heroics, general questing, world bosses, etc that crosses the server lines, but for day-to-day missions, just keep that to the original server.

That would be the one benefit for players if moving to cloud servers & if they are all located in the same location.

Then they could treat the servers as artificial instances. This would theoretically allow players from different servers to play together in a cross server situation for “queue group” activities.

The drawback would be where the servers are GEO located because lag would be a factor for the people who’d lose their locally located servers. So be careful what you wish for. 

Take it from someone who lost their 30ms local servers & was moved to 200ms servers & then moved again to 230-240ms servers, that lag is a killer to play with. Many local players just quit because they couldn’t get used to it.

Let me ask a simple question. How close are you to your local server? What’s your ping? Imagine if your ping jumps 100-150ms because they decide to “Cluster” the servers in another GEO location.