Founder here ... I feel betrayed and robbed

[Rammboo]

When you buy an RPG of any kind-- or at least a AAA RPG-- you aren't just given the best gear at the outset of the game. You ramp up your gear over time with hard work-- such as procuring loot from dungeons, buying them from vendors, crafting them, going on some asinine fetch quest, or if you're in an MMO perhaps trading for it.

 

You pay a set amount of money for this RPG, but you don't get the best gear just because you paid for the game. You are provided the opportunity to earn the best gear, but it's not just gifted to you.

 

Before you raise your hackles and come up with a retort, this analogy applies to other video game genres, as well. In Call of Duty multiplayer, you have to unlock all the different weapons, weapon accessories, and paints by leveling up in multiplayer and you can level up faster by being a better player. In Forza or Need for Speed, you aren't given the best cars in the game at the start of your save. You have to buy them with money/credits you earn as you play and upgrades are sometimes story-gated.

 

You paid the same amount of money as hardcore raiders to have the opportunity to work for your gear, not so you could just have your gear. If you didn't understand this before paying for a subscription, that's not on Bioware. That's on you.

 

Yet I got max gear on all my solo characters before update.

Now I can't.

You can list as many games here as you like.

I don't play them. I play this one that let me gear fairly before.

Now I can't.

Why the change?

[lawfig]

I would agree 326 is fine, however, fully geared augmented 306 is better gear... at least until 326... this last "expansion" has made the grind worse than before..... and this time I don't even get better gear. The gear launded with legacy of the sith is crap. Not allowing ups to mod to our specifications, i.e. more crit or alacrity or accuracy is wrong. I know we all worked hard to grind out the 306 gear.... now we have to again with a completely unbalanced pay system, too many aquatic per piece. There is not a single thing I like about the new expansion, and while not a founder I have been subscribed since September 2012. That's a lot of money spent, a lot of time and now seems it was a waste.

 

 

1) Fair complaint, they are working on a weapon outfitter. It is already on PTS.

 

2) Lets say, there is no weekly cap right. Then you keep farming Aquatics and Aquatics and Aquatics, but why? To do what? What do you need so many for? Its like people complaining about the Medals of Commendations, you don't spend all of them in a week anyway, like why even want the cap to be higher, its not like you could spend them in any good way anyway. It just doesn't matter.

 

3) You can still do TC. Nobody does because there is no reason anymore, you could still do TC run and to say it wasn't an exploitation or at the very least a clever way of game mechanics would be a lie. TC just gave too many fragments, maybe its worth doing TC again in 7.0.2 when they make OPS bosses drop more fragments.

 

4) You can only get Rakata gear from MM OPs true, but 326 is also fine and it doesn't make much of a difference. With 306 Gear everyone had gear, making gear worthless. Now 330 is at least somewhat cool, sure you could farm Nefra 20 times a week and run EV for Hazardous with 306 earpiece and get easy 330 but who really grinds that hard It is neither good nor bad, its just different.

[DarthEccen]

Thats just an outright lie.

 

I played 3 MM FPs yesterday;

 

# Korriban

Heal & Tank doing well (324/326 gear), the two DPS (LightSorc & Mara) struggle. Second boss goes soft enrage by 57%. No chance. Would some higher Gear saved us there? - no. BUT with better gear and one other decent DPS we could probably make it.

 

Lightning Sorcs are struggling these days. That sounds reasonable to me. Marauders are currently overpowered. If they were struggling, it wasn't because their gear sucked.

 

#Umbara

Heal & Tank doing well (324/326 gear), DPS (Jugg/Sorc) is ok (226 & 323. Last boss - game over. Heal gets some 300k hit and other "funny" things - Would some higher Gear saved us there? Probably, because we were not that bad. Since adrenals and medpacks are nearly useless in level 80 content, some armor rating, slightly more health and DPs through gear - we probably had a chance.

 

This is the only example here where I can see some merit to the "better gear needed" argument. Not that you'll be running Umbara all the time. Most players quit when they load into it because that last boss is just obnoxiously difficult for most groups, even in 6.0. But sure, I'll throw you a bone on this one.

 

#Nathema

Same goes there. Very good tank (326) and Heal (Merc 325) - two DPS (Snipers) are new, doing what they can. (~324). First of the last two bosses (Gemini) - wiped us in his clone phase nearly 15 times. I've never seen die a sniper so fast (2 Seconds from the start, he's gone). Its clear the Damage is too low. One DPs ragequitted, so we can bring in a 329 Vanguard. Wiped three more times, but all in all we get trough. Time to play this ~ 1.5-2 hours.

Would some higher Gear saved us there? Yes it literally has. With the 329 Vanguard we were able to carry a weaker DPS.

 

You say yourself here that the DPS were new. The problem here wasn't the gear. And depending on what spec those Snipers were, it may not have even been their skill. There's only one Sniper spec that actually parses well in 7.0 right now.

 

I'm really sick and tired of the "you don't need better gear for this". No I don't need it for this - as long as all players in my group play as well as I do or better. But if one of them or, god forbidd, two are doing worse - I go down with them. I've have no chance to help them, carry them, get trough. So I could'nt play this.

What should I do? Quit from the start everytime I realise the group probably would'nt make it? Instantly kickvote weaker classes and players?

 

Throwing BiS gear at people for minimum effort for 2-3 expansions in a row is how the playerbase got to the point where it looks like half the DPS you run with don't know what the **** they're doing. They don't learn their class, because they get carried by fantastic gear and better players and think they're doing fine-- and when push comes to shove they can't pull their weight. Maybe all of the bad DPS that you say you were with were just new, in which case, good. Hopefully they'll get better over time.

 

If you know a player isn't pulling their weight, and you plan to complete the content that you can't complete because of a certain player, then yes. Either quitting and reforming with different people, or kicking the people weighing you down is, in fact, the answer. You may not like it, but it sounds like you're never going to clear a semi-difficult FP with that Marauder.

Edited April 15, 2022 by DarthEccen

[DarthEccen]

Yet I got max gear on all my solo characters before update.

Now I can't.

You can list as many games here as you like.

I don't play them. I play this one that let me gear fairly before.

Now I can't.

Why the change?

 

You got max gear on all those characters by working for the gear. You earned it, at some point. You didn't log in at the launch of 6.0 and find a full set of 306 gear with gold implants in your mailbox, courtesy of Bioware. You earned it. You may have easily earned it (because 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0 made gearing easy), but you did earn it. The only thing that changed with 7.0 is how easily you earn it.

 

Don't take my stance here as defending Bioware. I'm not. I am a hardcore raider and I hate this new gearing system, too. It's atrocious. I was talking **** about the system before it launched and it's worse than I thought it would be. I'm not happy with the new gearing system. All I'm pointing out here is that spending money on a game does not entitle a player to the best gear. SWTOR, in the history of SWTOR, has NEVER been P2W. That's not how this game works.

 

Anyone thinking that $15 a month entitles them to the best gear in the game is objectively delusional, because the game has never, ever, in its entire history, given out the best gear available in exchange for a subscription. It just hasn't. There is no reality that exists where that would be true. Dr. Strange checked the multiverse and he can't find one. That's not how SWTOR works.

[Rammboo]

You got max gear on all those characters by working for the gear. You earned it, at some point. You didn't log in at the launch of 6.0 and find a full set of 306 gear with gold implants in your mailbox, courtesy of Bioware. You earned it. You may have easily earned it (because 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0 made gearing easy), but you did earn it. The only thing that changed with 7.0 is how easily you earn it.

 

Don't take my stance here as defending Bioware. I'm not. I am a hardcore raider and I hate this new gearing system, too. It's atrocious. I was talking **** about the system before it launched and it's worse than I thought it would be. I'm not happy with the new gearing system. All I'm pointing out here is that spending money on a game does not entitle a player to the best gear. SWTOR, in the history of SWTOR, has NEVER been P2W. That's not how this game works.

 

Anyone thinking that $15 a month entitles them to the best gear in the game is objectively delusional, because the game has never, ever, in its entire history, given out the best gear available in exchange for a subscription. It just hasn't. There is no reality that exists where that would be true. Dr. Strange checked the multiverse and he can't find one. That's not how SWTOR works.

 

You bet I worked for that gear.

Wasn't easy. Took months and months.

Point is I did it through solo content and didn't have to do it through content I don't want to do.

Now it seems I have to.

I won't, I don't care about Raiding or PvP.

I don't expect to be handed the best gear in the game because I pay a sub.

I just want an equal chance to earn it through the content I play.

Even if it takes longer, I'm fine with that.

Just want an equal chance to progress.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Rammboo

[DarthEccen]

You bet I worked for that gear.

Wasn't easy. Took months and months.

Point is I did it through solo content and didn't have to do it through content I don't want to do.

Now it seems I have to.

I won't, I don't care about Raiding or PvP.

I don't expect to be handed the best gear in the game because I pay a sub.

I just want an equal chance to earn it through the content I play.

Even if it takes longer, I'm fine with that.

Just want an equal chance to progress.

 

That's fine. Your take is reasonable. The person I directly responded to was not. The person I responded to was belligerently angry and saying that the money they spent should have earned them the best gear in the game.

 

I still question the need for the gear. You can do all story content in the game in green 318s or worse. You don't need purple 330s. But at least you're not expecting the best gear for nothing but money, like some people do.

[Rammboo]

That's fine. Your take is reasonable. The person I directly responded to was not. The person I responded to was belligerently angry and saying that the money they spent should have earned them the best gear in the game.

 

I still question the need for the gear. You can do all story content in the game in green 318s or worse. You don't need purple 330s. But at least you're not expecting the best gear for nothing but money, like some people do.

 

Yeah I can do it in 320 greens, just takes longer to achieve nothing.

I get your point and I wasn't trying to be out of line.

I'm just fed up with the solo grind taking three times as long.

If I could get the same gear again in the content I play it would be less painful at least.

Even if it takes longer.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Rammboo

[ZUHFB]

Yeah I can do it in 320 greens, just takes longer to achieve nothing.

 

No it doesn't, thats his point! You lose most stats anyway, maybe he has 40 crit more than you on NarShaddaa or whatever, who cares. Also achieve nothing is implying that in 6.0 you were doing that, how come? 306 Gear wasn't an achievement it was a necessity, not having max gear in 6.0 was harder than having it. Or ehat are you talking about?

[DarthEccen]

No it doesn't, thats his point! You lose most stats anyway, maybe he has 40 crit more than you on NarShaddaa or whatever, who cares. Also achieve nothing is implying that in 6.0 you were doing that, how come? 306 Gear wasn't an achievement it was a necessity, not having max gear in 6.0 was harder than having it. Or ehat are you talking about?

 

That's actually an entire separate issue and is not what I was getting at. At least currently, though, since tertiary stats scale down, you are correct. Having purple 330s might shave off mere seconds in a heroic, versus wearing greens, or even 306s. The difference is negligible, at best. Gear really doesn't even matter in raids much, right now, unless you're doing Vet/NiM ops.

[Pricia]

And once again, people completely forget the Spirit of Vengeance debacle, so excuse me if I'd rather have a bit better gear than the minimum before tackling new content.

 

Also I don't really enjoy taking forever to kill stuff in my high endurance gear, imagine that.

[casirabit]

That's fine. Your take is reasonable. The person I directly responded to was not. The person I responded to was belligerently angry and saying that the money they spent should have earned them the best gear in the game.

 

I still question the need for the gear. You can do all story content in the game in green 318s or worse. You don't need purple 330s. But at least you're not expecting the best gear for nothing but money, like some people do.

 

It depends on the content you do. I have a DPS sage that I used to be able to take through the heroic in Black Hole without dying in 306 and now in the gear she has (320) she died three blasted times in the heroic, so the stats are not the same. I don't care how long it takes me to get the gear, just give me the blasted chance to get it without having to pvp (which I hate) or raiding (most raiders are not patient, on my interruptions- (I have an invalid mom I take care of) so that is out as well.)

[Darev]

It depends on the content you do. I have a DPS sage that I used to be able to take through the heroic in Black Hole without dying in 306 and now in the gear she has (320) she died three blasted times in the heroic, so the stats are not the same. I don't care how long it takes me to get the gear, just give me the blasted chance to get it without having to pvp (which I hate) or raiding (most raiders are not patient, on my interruptions- (I have an invalid mom I take care of) so that is out as well.)

 

Well, as much as I hate to say it (and I don't agree with the design change behind it) that 306 gear you're used to is not equivalent to the 320 gear now.

 

At level 75, the "base" level gear was 270...which is what I suspect the 320 gear, at level 80, is equivalent to now.

 

The best THEN, pre expansion and pre level cap increase certainly shouldn't be the best AFTER...but it seems like there's a serious mis-match somewhere.

 

However, if people want to take my supposition and run with it (plus, it really isn't MINE...I've seen it posted here before, by others) that 306 gear should really be the equivalent of about starting with 290 back when 75 was still level cap. Not starting over (from the level 75 starting point) but somewhere in the middle between 320 and whatever the new gear cap rating actually is.

[Pricia]

Well, as much as I hate to say it (and I don't agree with the design change behind it) that 306 gear you're used to is not equivalent to the 320 gear now.

 

At level 75, the "base" level gear was 270...which is what I suspect the 320 gear, at level 80, is equivalent to now.

 

The best THEN, pre expansion and pre level cap increase certainly shouldn't be the best AFTER...but it seems like there's a serious mis-match somewhere.

 

However, if people want to take my supposition and run with it (plus, it really isn't MINE...I've seen it posted here before, by others) that 306 gear should really be the equivalent of about starting with 290 back when 75 was still level cap. Not starting over (from the level 75 starting point) but somewhere in the middle between 320 and whatever the new gear cap rating actually is.

 

I disagree, it's a bit mind boggling that IMPROVING your character by getting more levels makes it harder to do old content. If BW is going for firsts, that's a pretty bold one.

 

I mean, it's silly when I think of it. I've spent hours getting 326 gear and doing old heroics takes about as long now as it did before. Makes me wonder what the point of leveling and gearing up is if all I'm ever going to do is being able to kill stuff the same way I was before 7.0.

 

Kudos to BW for making us grind over and over to get to the same point I guess?

[Galbsadi]

I disagree, it's a bit mind boggling that IMPROVING your character by getting more levels makes it harder to do old content. If BW is going for firsts, that's a pretty bold one.

 

I mean, it's silly when I think of it. I've spent hours getting 326 gear and doing old heroics takes about as long now as it did before. Makes me wonder what the point of leveling and gearing up is if all I'm ever going to do is being able to kill stuff the same way I was before 7.0.

 

Kudos to BW for making us grind over and over to get to the same point I guess?

 

Other games do make it so you need to re-gear to do new content (WoW, FFXIV, GW2, etc.), and other games still keep old content as being 'current' for gear purposes when new content is released (ESO).

 

The problem is that (1) Bioware is taking the "reset your gear" aspect of the former (that the latter does not use), (2) trying to apply the "keep the old current for gearing in drops" (that the former doesn't really use), and (3) NOT RELEASING NEW CONTENT (that NEITHER does). Saying "but it'll be in 7.1" doesn't matter. In ESO, you can expect new zones and trials (their version of operations) on release day, not a 30 minute story and a promise of "maybe some group content in a few months." In FFXIV, you get new dungeons, zones, hours of story...on release day. In WoW, same thing. In GW2, same thing. In fact, in ANY major MMO, you get all of this. In SWTOR, we get...a sense of pride and accomplishment?

 

Now, in all fairness, this needs to be tempered: these other games charge for actual expansions. Except in ESO, they also give you access to almost all of this new content just by subscribing (including at least a new hours-long story zone and multiple dungeons (their version of flashpoints)) each year. In SWTOR, we sometimes get what...one flashpoint a year, maybe? If we're lucky? (By comparison, in the same time that we got 30m of story and one FP in SWTOR for a sub, in ESO I've gotten 2 dungeons and about 3 hours worth of story....for the same cost.)

 

Maybe the problem is that Bioware is greedy (or EA is greedy, idk), and maybe Disney needs to go ahead and strip them of the license to produce Star Wars products. I don't particularly want SWTOR to die, but if this is what SWTOR is to become, it's better for it to die than to continue limping along.

[JediQuaker]

Maybe the problem is that Bioware is greedy (or EA is greedy, idk), and maybe Disney needs to go ahead and strip them of the license to produce Star Wars products. I don't particularly want SWTOR to die, but if this is what SWTOR is to become, it's better for it to die than to continue limping along.

Yeah that's what we want. Disney - the company that basically destroyed the Star Wars movie franchise - to make decisions about SWTOR's future. 😂😂

[Galbsadi]

Yeah that's what we want. Disney - the company that basically destroyed the Star Wars movie franchise - to make decisions about SWTOR's future. 😂😂

 

Disney that made Rogue One. Disney that made the Mandalorian. Disney that made Book of Boba Fett.

 

And, the latest trilogy, while not as great as the original, was still better than the prequels.

 

As opposed to "a sense of pride and accomplishment" SW Battlefront from EA.

 

Also, even if it was as bad as the prequels, Jar Jar Binks is still better than no story at all.

 

You were saying?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Galbsadi

[Rammboo]

No it doesn't, thats his point! You lose most stats anyway, maybe he has 40 crit more than you on NarShaddaa or whatever, who cares. Also achieve nothing is implying that in 6.0 you were doing that, how come? 306 Gear wasn't an achievement it was a necessity, not having max gear in 6.0 was harder than having it. Or ehat are you talking about?

 

What I meant was trash mobs take at least twice as long to kill.

They drop the same trash as before.

It's a waste of time and effort.

Yet I have to grind through them to get to where the mission ends are.

It's just boring.

The reason I lose most stats is the level sync but I don't even want to get started on that.

Also I had 306 gear on all my characters pre 7.0.

With bonus stats that I paid for to improve.

( They are gone now too, along with the credits I spent on them.)

Was fine then. New green stuff from 320 to 326 has little advantage.

Other than much lower repair cost.

Just bonus grind.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Rammboo

[Hadsil]

Disney that made Rogue One. Disney that made the Mandalorian. Disney that made Book of Boba Fett.

 

And, the latest trilogy, while not as great as the original, was still better than the prequels.

 

As opposed to "a sense of pride and accomplishment" SW Battlefront from EA.

 

Also, even if it was as bad as the prequels, Jar Jar Binks is still better than no story at all.

 

You were saying?

 

No, give me 100 Jar Jar Binks over the atrocity of the sequel trilogy. The sequel trilogy does not exist as far as I'm concerned. Star Wars ends at Return of the Jedi. A fantastic story it is.

[Pricia]

No, give me 100 Jar Jar Binks over the atrocity of the sequel trilogy. The sequel trilogy does not exist as far as I'm concerned. Star Wars ends at Return of the Jedi. A fantastic story it is.

 

I'm with you there.

 

For me the sequel is pretty much bits and pieces of the original taken and reapplied in a slightly different context, and the original parts... sucked.

 

Although I actually liked Episode VII, I have no intention of watching the other two ever again.

 

The prequels at least were original content.

[Hadsil]

I'm with you there.

 

For me the sequel is pretty much bits and pieces of the original taken and reapplied in a slightly different context, and the original parts... sucked.

 

Although I actually liked Episode VII, I have no intention of watching the other two ever again.

 

The prequels at least were original content.

 

The Force Awakens was a scene for scene remake of A New Hope. Same story, different labels.

The Last Jedi was political propaganda, not a movie.

The Rise of Skywalker was a decent attempt to fix things, but it was too little too late. It felt a little like a Star Wars movie to me. The turd was made pretty, but it's still a turd.

[Shayddow]

I'm with you there.

For me the sequel is pretty much bits and pieces of the original taken and reapplied in a slightly different context, and the original parts... sucked.

Although I actually liked Episode VII, I have no intention of watching the other two ever again.

 

The prequels at least were original content.

The Force Awakens was a scene for scene remake of A New Hope. Same story, different labels.

The Last Jedi was political propaganda, not a movie.

The Rise of Skywalker was a decent attempt to fix things, but it was too little too late. It felt a little like a Star Wars movie to me. The turd was made pretty, but it's still a turd.

 

I agree, although with selective points. The Force Awakens was basically a "re-do" of "A New Hope". Besides which, I'll never forgive Abrams for killing off Vulcan in that series.

I don't object to politics if a movie is good. The Return of the Jedi was political too. A rebellion of local "primitives" in a jungle environment beats a highly technical industrial military? Remind anyone of Vietnam? Hmm? (I suppose since I grew up in the 1960's I saw the analogy that people aren't as familiar with these days. However, "The Last Jedi" although it was trying to put forth a feminist agenda, was ineffective because it was NOT a good movie. In the original trilogy Princess Leia and Pademe in the prequels were far more effective as strong female characters (Leia strangled Jabba, Pademe fought side by side with Anakin in the "Clone Wars")

Plus bringing back Palpatine could have been done with more explanation of essence transfer, instead of "somehow he came back" - it was done well in EU Dark Empire clones.

I would prefer the EU to the sequels we got from Disney. Although personally I would keep the following from the EU: the ss'run (Bakura novel), Thrawn, Courtship of Princess Leia series with the Hapes, 3 kids of Han & Leia, Mara Jade & Luke. I would omit the Vong stuff though.

[BRKMSN]

I agree, although with selective points. The Force Awakens was basically a "re-do" of "A New Hope". Besides which, I'll never forgive Abrams for killing off Vulcan in that series.

I don't object to politics if a movie is good. The Return of the Jedi was political too. A rebellion of local "primitives" in a jungle environment beats a highly technical industrial military? Remind anyone of Vietnam? Hmm? (I suppose since I grew up in the 1960's I saw the analogy that people aren't as familiar with these days. However, "The Last Jedi" although it was trying to put forth a feminist agenda, was ineffective because it was NOT a good movie. In the original trilogy Princess Leia and Pademe in the prequels were far more effective as strong female characters (Leia strangled Jabba, Pademe fought side by side with Anakin in the "Clone Wars")

Plus bringing back Palpatine could have been done with more explanation of essence transfer, instead of "somehow he came back" - it was done well in EU Dark Empire clones.

I would prefer the EU to the sequels we got from Disney. Although personally I would keep the following from the EU: the ss'run (Bakura novel), Thrawn, Courtship of Princess Leia series with the Hapes, 3 kids of Han & Leia, Mara Jade & Luke. I would omit the Vong stuff though.

 

The Vietnam comparison seems way off to me. There was a forest (not jungle). The battle was short and there was a decisive victory that resulted in freedom throughout the galaxy.

 

I enjoyed the EU stories - even the Yuuzhan Vong story was a nice break from the repetitive dark force using villain. I preferred how Luke Skywalker was portrayed in the novels over the hermit in exile we were given by Disney.

[JasonThDi]

It would have been great if BioWare actually asked the players, all of us, if we wanted these changes or not. Then again, it's not possible to please every player.

 

I feel as if BioWare is making the same mistakes SOE made with SWG. Constantly releasing new updates without fixing all the game breaking bugs and glitches, such as the specific spot outside Mos Eisley where the game would crash, everytime you went to that spot.

 

Ever since 7.0 was released, I've been having a difficult time enjoying SWToR. It's just not the same anymore and I've been playing since launch.

[Syal]

It would have been great if BioWare actually asked the players, all of us, if we wanted these changes or not. Then again, it's not possible to please every player.

 

I feel as if BioWare is making the same mistakes SOE made with SWG. Constantly releasing new updates without fixing all the game breaking bugs and glitches, such as the specific spot outside Mos Eisley where the game would crash, everytime you went to that spot.

 

Ever since 7.0 was released, I've been having a difficult time enjoying SWToR. It's just not the same anymore and I've been playing since launch.

 

No need poll ! just look at steam chart. Players leaving the current 7.0 update.

[NuSeC]

Disney that made Rogue One. Disney that made the Mandalorian. Disney that made Book of Boba Fett

 

I see where this is going...

And, the latest trilogy, while not as great as the original, was still better than the prequels.

 

LOL naw man... Mary Sue Wars was not better than either of the other trilogies.The last Jedi was the worst version of fan-fiction anyone could think of. That movie single-handedly pwned people's childhoods.