Combat Styles Were Not What People Wanted! (And Everything Else Wrong With Them)

[Redlotusx]

The best part about Combat style is that those who wanted a Dark Side/Light Side, Jedi/Sith got what they wanted if they want to role play as a dark side jedi they can simply slap a sith warrior/inquisitor subclass and show to their friends their new malicious power. If they wanted to make a lightside Sith all they need is to slap knight/consular sub class and now they have the nice guy from the enemy faction. The thing is combat style give lot of possiblities and i like that.

[Shayddow]

First of all, why can't we choose to modify both the primary *and* the secondary styles on existing characters? We can only do this for new ones? What the hell?

 

Actually, you CAN change your primary and secondary style on existing characters : BUT - only if the following are true:

1. You are a force-user class

2. You have the opposite alignment to what faction you have. In other words:

Sith with Light side alignment are offered the option of changing their primary combat style to their "mirror" class-

Jedi with Dark side alignment are offered the option of changing their primary combat style to their "mirror" class

 

So: Sorcer/Sage, Assassin/Shadow, Guardian/Juggernaut, Sentinal/Marauder

 

I'm not sure exactly how much Dark/Light is required for this, all of my characters that have been offered this option have been DS 5 or LS 5.

 

The second combat style has nothing to do with LS/DS attunement and you can pick anything.

[SteveTheCynic]

Guessing

Your terminology is all over the place, sorry.

Your character, like all characters in the game, is programmed as a Class Object.

[citation needed] It probably is, approximately, but you have no direct evidence for that.(1)

The Combat Style subroutine is a feature of that Object.

It's more likely to be an attached object in its own right.

Each Combat Style is its own subroutine, among which is an animation sequence for each ability that's applied to your Class Object Appearance feature.

Not "appearance" as such, but I think that's excessively splitting hairs.(2)

However, the Combat Style subroutine isn't a Class Object

Almost certainly it is. It's certainly how I'd build it.

or at least the animation sequences aren't.

Hard to say, but there's almost certainly some sort of object associated with each animation.

The weapon used in the animation subroutine is ingrained into the subroutine.

Hmm. Not sure here. It probably isn't baked directly into the Combat Style object, but into the combination of the style and the weapon, and might be just a bundle of references to animations, of the type "when using Mortar Volley with a rifle, play animation 742".

To change the weapon appearance in the subroutine requires major rewrites of programming.

It's extremely unlikely that it would require large chunks of programming work. It would require a new set of animation sequences (which isn't, as such, programming work in the "writing code" sense), and then they'd have to link the new animations to the new weapon set. From a programming point of view, it's a relatively small job, but building all the animations and tweaking them so they work correctly on all body types for both sexes isn't a small job. (It's not *programming* work in the sense of designing and writing code, but owes a lot to the same sort of 3D design skills that are required to build the actual models of the characters.)

This could also explain why they haven't been able to apply weapon appearance to the Outfitter which accesses your Appearance feature of your Character Class Object.

Probably not. The problems they've had delivering weapons in Outfitter are probably linked to the substantial number of styles that *currently* allow the player to select different weapons (e.g. Commandos with Cannons or Rifles, Juggs with sabres or vibroswords, etc.), and also to the problem that there just plain *aren't* animation sequences for using Boltstream with a pair of pistols. (If you play Commando, but with Outfitter showing pistols.)

A weapon appearance in Outfitter isn't the same instance as the weapon appearance in the animations.

Hard to say, since I'm not sure what you mean by that. The most obvious interpretation counts very much as "duh".

 

My day job has been "developer" for more than thirty years, by the way, so it's vaguely possible that I know whereof I speak.

 

(1) Well, except that it *wouldn't* be a "class object" in the usual programming sense of the words, an abstract object that represents the *class* itself. It would be an instance of the class "player character".

 

(2) I'd normally treat "appearance" in the context of a character as referring to stuff like what you edit when designing the look of the character during the creation process.

[Shayddow]

they went with the hero engine which was originally developed for first generation smart phones iirc.

 

Actually, hero engine was developed by Simutronics, which made Text based games (NOT Phone text. They made games that were played online with text (non-graphic) This was back in the 1980s and 1990s. I used to play a game of theirs called "Dragonrealms". They also had a game called "Gemstone".

[Shayddow]

I'd be happy if my characters who use a cannon wouldn't swing it around like some sort of purse in animations.

[Shayddow]

Today , 05:24 PM | #15

REPORT POST QUOTE

Quote: Originally Posted by warrico View Post

(and sidenote:More options to what weapons we can use would also most likely increase cartel market sales)

Not until they fix the Outfitter thing...

 

Not until they make 80th level weapons modable. There are no mods to make cartel weapons into 80th level.

[YTTHYTTH]

I'd be happy if my characters who use a cannon wouldn't swing it around like some sort of purse in animations.

 

Getting smacked on the side of the head by an assault cannon…ouch.

[Hadsil]

 

[citation needed] It probably is, approximately, but you have no direct evidence for that.(1)

 

 

Hence why I said I was "Guessing". It was just an idea I thought plausible. Sharing an opinion. If it's not true then it's not true.

 

https://xkcd.com/386/

Edited March 13, 2022 by Hadsil

[SithKoriandr]

Did I want weapon choice. I did! For my Shadow/Assassins. Single Blade Lightsabers. Sadly, didn't get this. Shadow/Assassin Infilitration/Deception is probably my most favorite combat style in game to play (even after the hated change to some attacks...project turned in kineticblast for instance).

 

Did I want a blaster for my Agent? I did! Using Gunslinger/Scoundrel feels just like using Sniper/Operative to me except now I get a Blaster!

 

Wasn't 100% what I was hoping for, but I don't find it terrible at all.

[Shayddow]

I have chosen for some of my chars, I haven't gone over all of them yet because I've only played on 2 different servers sine 7.0 dropped and I really don't have time right now to catch them all up.

On the German server none of them have finished KOTFE yet, but quite a few of them are 75th level and close to or at 306 armor. None of them have gotten to 80th yet but I have selected what I think are pragmatic (for the most part) choices for them.

 

On Star Forge which was the server where I have the most progress I've reached 80 with a few and I've completed the story completely (except for Darth Malgus fight) with my strongest char (BH). A couple of chars on that server are on the next tier down, 1 flashpoint to go before the 7.0 stories.

Anyway - for my LS 5 Jedi (who was Not given choice to change primary style, she did choose Marauder (primary class is sentinel) to learn. This is a mirror class of her abilities as a Jedi, but I play Empire moreso than Republic, with a mostly even tally of LS/DS (except for my Darth Occulus who was deliberately kept neutral).

I have her backstory for learning Merauder abilities as the following: She was very much influenced by both the Voss and by Scourge (whom she romanced - originally wanted to romance Theron but due to bug that did not work out) that she should keep the force in balance, and by learning techniques from both sides of the spectrum would lead to a better outcome.

[Korithras]

To all the people who are saying they like combat styles: I'm glad for you. On paper, I don't have a problem with them. My problem is with the execution. People have been asking for a loosening on weapon restrictions for a looooooong time now. This is not what we were asking for. So the combat styles feel like a mockery, a slap in the face from the developers, who ignored what we were asking for and gave us this instead.

 

I don't hate the combat styles for what they are, I just hate the fact that the devs *completely* missed the mark on what we were asking for, again, almost as long as the game's been around.

[SteveTheCynic]

Not until they make 80th level weapons modable. There are no mods to make cartel weapons into 80th level.

If you can put the cartel weapon in Outfitter, the presence or absence of mod-objects for weapons suddenly has no effect on the main reason people are complaining specifically about *cartel weapons* being useless.

 

Think: what are people saying? "Cartel weapons are useless because I can't mod them up above 306 and therefore I have to use that ugly-as-farble fixed-stats weapon instead of the nice-looking CM weapon I bought." Weapons in Outfitter would solve that by letting us use the *appearance* of the CM weapon and the *stats* of the ugly weapon.

 

There is another reason to bemoan the absence of mod-objects over 306, of course, but it's just as applicable to armour as it is to weapons. Without those mod-objects, we can't tune our stat mix, but that depends exactly not at all on the appearance of the moddable weapon, nor on whether it came from the CM or from The Esseles back in the day or whatever, and totally on it being moddable.

[Alithia]

How far from the mark could you have been, Bioware? Did you read a single post from people all these years? We weren't asking you to pigeon-hole us into changing up what made our favorite class our favorite class all we wanted was for you to loosen your sphincters when it came to weapon restrictions for classes.

 

I'm not necessarily saying combat styles were a bad idea but forcing a player to choose between the weapon(s) they want to use and the combat style they know, love, and are used to, and probably favor is just idiotic, it has to be said.

 

I play my mercenary as my my main because I love the mercenary's skill set. I love the mobility, I love the look and feel of it, I love being able to heal myself in a pinch, it's me. It's what I like.

 

What I don't like is having to dual wield pistols. All I and again, many other players were asking for, were more weapon options. I would have loved to play a merc wielding a rifle or an assault cannon, I don't want to have to adopt an entirely different set of skills, one I may not even like mind you, to do so!

 

Then there's the whole "you can only choose one secondary combat style on your existing character and then you're locked into that forever" decision.

 

First of all, why can't we choose to modify both the primary *and* the secondary styles on existing characters? We can only do this for new ones? What the hell?

 

And second of all, why is it a permanent, "you can never change it once it's locked in" choice? What the hell? What if right now I want to play say a merc and a sniper but then down the line I'm not feeling the sniper and wanted to switch to something else? Why is this such a bad thing in your heads?

 

Get yourselves together Bioware! This "expansion" was nothing more than an over-glorified patch! Combat styles are a letdown! And the only MMO looking worse than yours right now is World of Warcraft.

 

They were EXACTLY what was expected and they afre the best feature since launch! Never ever EVER make them changeable jut because of entitled brats on the forums! Instead sell a 3rd combat style for 10K CM Coins!

[Pricia]

To all the people who are saying they like combat styles: I'm glad for you. On paper, I don't have a problem with them. My problem is with the execution. People have been asking for a loosening on weapon restrictions for a looooooong time now. This is not what we were asking for. So the combat styles feel like a mockery, a slap in the face from the developers, who ignored what we were asking for and gave us this instead.

 

I don't hate the combat styles for what they are, I just hate the fact that the devs *completely* missed the mark on what we were asking for, again, almost as long as the game's been around.

 

I doubt they missed the mark. I think it's, like everything, a question of budget. They would have to redo the animation of every single attack for every single weapon (well, for tech classes). Like everything, I think we have to be realistic and realize that some things will just never happen.

[Shayddow]

Think: what are people saying? "Cartel weapons are useless because I can't mod them up above 306 and therefore I have to use that ugly-as-farble fixed-stats weapon instead of the nice-looking CM weapon I bought." Weapons in Outfitter would solve that by letting us use the *appearance* of the CM weapon and the *stats* of the ugly weapon.

This is important to many people I've chatted with, and to me as well.

I have one character that is a Czerka guy backstory. Stronghold all decoracted in Czerka stuff. All companions that can be are wearing dyed green/yellow Czerka gear. He has 2 czerka blasters (gunslinger). His gear is dyed Czerka (outfitter). He is mostly light-side except for --- you got it, the Tatooine planet quest decision

[Jedi_riches]

I doubt they missed the mark. I think it's, like everything, a question of budget. They would have to redo the animation of every single attack for every single weapon (well, for tech classes). Like everything, I think we have to be realistic and realize that some things will just never happen.

 

This, redoing all combat animations is not something they have the time and resources for, so opening up like this is the best compromise they have and admittedly the best option for me personally, I love the inquisitor story but no amount of weapon swaps will ever have me loving the playstyle at least this way I can play the inquisitor story as a vengeance juggernaut.

[Severith]

Who knows what people wanted exactly? Every single one of us wiould want something different, we are not Borg to want the same thing

This is not crowdfunding game where we have a vote, they do it according to their vision, we are free to like it or leave it.

 

About existing characters, they said they had technical limitations, so they couldnt do it or it takes too much resources to do it.

 

Game developers need to listen to feedback, and get a nuanced idea of what different player communities want.

 

Then, the Devs actually need to know enough about their game to see what it actually needs, in terms of longevity and growth, and profit.

 

Brainstorming time: It's literally the job of the Devs, to come up with solutions, preferably good ones, that blend together to satisfy the needs of the players, the game itself, and the game as a business.

 

For 7.0, the devs failed. On. Every. Single. Level. The "why" doesn't even matter at this point. The players got systems and changes we didn't want, the game got modifications it couldn't handle and that don't fundementaly make the game better, and, if Steam charts are any indication, Bioware and EA have a damaged product which will be pulling in less and less money than they would of had if they had just not released an "expansion" at all.

[Pricia]

 

For 7.0, the devs failed. On. Every. Single. Level. The "why" doesn't even matter at this point. The players got systems and changes we didn't want, the game got modifications it couldn't handle and that don't fundementaly make the game better, and, if Steam charts are any indication, Bioware and EA have a damaged product which will be pulling in less and less money than they would of had if they had just not released an "expansion" at all.

 

I disagree.

 

We got combat styles

We're getting (eventually) weapons in the outfitter

We got shared tagging

 

So no, they didn't fail on everything.

 

And yeah, the developer's job is to try and make things work with the resources they have. So that means smaller story update, and no "any weapon for every combat style." People just have really unrealistic expectations of what they can actually do.

 

I agree that we got a lot of things we didn't want (half a new UI, ridiculous gearing system, and huge nerf to Conquest), but people need to stop lying - they didn't fail on "every single level."

[warrico]

This, redoing all combat animations is not something they have the time and resources for, so opening up like this is the best compromise they have and admittedly the best option for me personally, I love the inquisitor story but no amount of weapon swaps will ever have me loving the playstyle at least this way I can play the inquisitor story as a vengeance juggernaut.

 

Are we really at the point where we can't believe or expect Bioware to be capable (or have the resources) to redo certain animations so that there isn't any requirements? I know the latest update was disappointing to most, but I cannot believe that having a few of their animators redo some animations so that they will shoot with the correct weapons, is to much work/time consuming/expensive for Bioware to handle. If that is the case then I suggest everyone jump ship, cause this boat is shutting down in a few months,

[SteveTheCynic]

Are we really at the point where we can't believe or expect Bioware to be capable (or have the resources) to redo certain animations so that there isn't any requirements? I know the latest update was disappointing to most, but I cannot believe that having a few of their animators redo some animations so that they will shoot with the correct weapons, is to much work/time consuming/expensive for Bioware to handle. If that is the case then I suggest everyone jump ship, cause this boat is shutting down in a few months,

By itself, redoing those animations is almost certainly viable, even with whatever resource restrictions they have.

 

Combined with all the other stuff for 7.0? Not so much.

[Pricia]

Are we really at the point where we can't believe or expect Bioware to be capable (or have the resources) to redo certain animations so that there isn't any requirements? I know the latest update was disappointing to most, but I cannot believe that having a few of their animators redo some animations so that they will shoot with the correct weapons, is to much work/time consuming/expensive for Bioware to handle. If that is the case then I suggest everyone jump ship, cause this boat is shutting down in a few months,

 

It's probably just not worth the resources to them. But you're looking at 12 combat styles with probably up to 15 abilities that would have to be redone for each weapon - so... that's 4 times each but then operative and scoundrels have an offhand that we sometimes see too, so how would that work?

 

See, it's not as easy as just "redo some animations." What we got is a pretty good compromise IMO. OP can switch his merc to a commando - the playstyle will be the same after all, and he'll be able to use his assault cannon... which is what he wanted! Same as someone who wanted their operative to use a gun - easy, just take the scoundrel combat style.

 

I mean, the combat styles are pretty much in line with the used weapons anyway. You couldn't really have a scoundrel being close ranged with an assault cannon, could you?

[ZoraThrall]

I agree with the OP about the having more weapon options is what the majority of people wanted, it's definitely what I wanted. Same goes for being forced to adopt a new skill set that you might not even like just to be able to use a particular weapon type. Personally, I would've preferred having more weapon and armor type options available to one class, rather than having to adopt another skill set or having to adopt a skill set I don't like just to be able to use particular weapon type.

 

However with the above said, I think they just weren't able to make that possible due to technical limitations, and possibly because it might have been hard-coded into the game, that specific class (advanced class) will be using a certain weapon and armor type. If they could've just allowed more weapon types, I think they would've, because that by far would've been the least demanding to implement.

 

Just having the option to choose another weapon and armor type available for use with your current class would've been a step up. They could even have made a quest line around it, basically you go through a certain amount of training which after completion gives the option to use that particular weapon type with any ability that requires a weapon.

 

Adding an additional combat style to a character, is basically like multi-classing it, and then not, because you're forced to having only one active at a time, and it basically makes it so less characters are needed. Personally I would've liked having partial multi-classing as an option, so you could narrow down on more authentic SW concepts.

 

//Zora

[Ghostius]

Game developers need to listen to feedback, and get a nuanced idea of what different player communities want.

 

Then, the Devs actually need to know enough about their game to see what it actually needs, in terms of longevity and growth, and profit.

 

Brainstorming time: It's literally the job of the Devs, to come up with solutions, preferably good ones, that blend together to satisfy the needs of the players, the game itself, and the game as a business.

 

For 7.0, the devs failed. On. Every. Single. Level. The "why" doesn't even matter at this point. The players got systems and changes we didn't want, the game got modifications it couldn't handle and that don't fundementaly make the game better, and, if Steam charts are any indication, Bioware and EA have a damaged product which will be pulling in less and less money than they would of had if they had just not released an "expansion" at all.

 

Players dont have any ideas what they want, they just hate changes.

Yes, 7.0 is not perfect, it is rushed and unfinished, but still good enough. I have no doubt they will sort the problems soon.

[Severith]

I disagree.

 

We got combat styles

We're getting (eventually) weapons in the outfitter

We got shared tagging

 

So no, they didn't fail on everything.

 

And yeah, the developer's job is to try and make things work with the resources they have. So that means smaller story update, and no "any weapon for every combat style." People just have really unrealistic expectations of what they can actually do.

 

I agree that we got a lot of things we didn't want (half a new UI, ridiculous gearing system, and huge nerf to Conquest), but people need to stop lying - they didn't fail on "every single level."

 

Combat styles are lesser versions of classes from 6.0, and anyone with alts doesn't really benefit from them. SWTOR spent 10 years implementing systems to encourage making alts.

 

So we might get weapons in the outfitter in 7.1. The devs intentionally created a problem (via gearing), and that problem might eventually be fixed. That's not a good thing, that's a mistake. Think for one second about when a casual, non-whale is most likely to drop 50 bucks on a weapon skin. The answer? The start of an expansion. Instead, all those people who could of used skins are now wielding the default level 80 weapons, which intentionally look bad as to drive people to the cartel market. Absolute failure, every level.

 

Shared tagging actually discourages player interactions, and gives motivation to toxic behavior, but with the benefit of less frustration for doing quests. Net loss. See the WoW forums if you disagree on the long term effects of shared tagging. Why make friends when you can parasite off of strangers?

 

The levels (of failure), as I see them, are 1: what the games wanted and needed 2: the game as a "game", it's integrity on a technical level aimed at longevity (bugs and features), and 3: The game's ability to function as a business. If you have a "level" that doesn't fall into one of those descriptions, lets hear it.

 

They failed. On every level. If you still disagree, describe, in simple terms, "a level" and how they didn't fail on it.

 

As far as resources are considered, follow along this metaphor. Bioware Bill has a month of vacation time, and wants to go to Italy. But, he doesn't have the money to stay in Italy for a month. He has a few options. He can go to Italy for a week, and then hang around at home afterward. He can go to Florida instead, and visit his family. He could also work for 2 weeks, and then spend two weeks in Italy. Lots of options. But what did Bioware Bill do? Bill went to Italy for a month anyways, got stranded due to lack of funds, ended up homeless, then beaten and robbed before eventually (hopefully, maybe) finding his way back home in time to enjoy 7.1. Bioware "Bill" Austin made bad choices with the resources they had. Having limited resources doesn't change that fact.

 

You accuse people of lying on these forums, and tell them they need to stop. Who is lying, and what are they lying about? In concrete terms, show us. If you can't, then I humbly submit to you, that we already know who the liar is.

[Severith]

Players dont have any ideas what they want, they just hate changes.

Yes, 7.0 is not perfect, it is rushed and unfinished, but still good enough. I have no doubt they will sort the problems soon.

 

I'm in no way saying that devs need to listen to players, and then exactly follow their ideas. They do however, need to get a general idea of what everyone is saying, and then, if they are capable of doing their job well, come up with solutions that not only solve problems, but are innovative enough to make the game more fun with dynamic, intrinsic features.

 

That's called "Development". 7.0 is the literal opposite of development. It made problems that didn't need to be created, it made activities less intrinsic, but more clunky, it forces players into content they don't like.

 

What exactly do you mean by 7.0 being "good enough" ? When I hit the play button, the game loads up, I can select a character and move around. Yep. 10/10, the game is "good enough". Meanwhile, less people play the game now than were playing towards the end of 6.0, before all these changes, according to Steam. I guess it wasn't good enough for all those people who left, now was it?