Really concerned about ability pruning.

[DeadOptimus]

Does anybody have info on where they are with the pruning right now? I don't pay every spec, but the handful I do play already feel more or less fine as is. Maybe one or two abilities I rarely or never use? Which is fine. The only other time I've experienced pruning is the multiple times Blizzard has done it with WoW, and it's never, ever, been better for it. I really don't want this game to suffer from WoW's mistakes. I got a bad feeling about this.

[Setta]

I didn't try every class so I may be wrong, but for the most part all abilities are still there(?). What they do is force you to pick between some abilities that you normally have atm. For instance you may need to pick between your class' cc or another key ability like movement speed ability. Group stealth or a dash ability. Raid buff or some other utility.

 

Also some of the more popular specs lost a bit more compared to the less popular specs, I imagine for balance purposes, but if there is an ability you feel you must have, I believe you can. You might have to pick it over another ability or even change specs, but they're there. Overall the feel does suck. They're adding more levels while giving us fewer abilities. Which makes leveling feel even worse than it is, and even end game feels weird without having all your niche abilities (if you use them like I and some others do). That said, while it's noticable, it doesn't make the game unplayable either. I think overtime people will accept it for what it is, even if it's a step back.

 

That said while the ptr is still up I would advise you to check it out to get a better understanding of what's to come. Reading about it vs experiencing it are two different things.

[AxelStorm]

I am for ability pruning as long as its done right (i.e. - doesn't impact your class's overall function) There are way way too many combat moves.

 

Modern MMOs allow you only 4-6 abiltiies you can use at one time (you can select from more out of combat). the rest its movement/placement skill from the player. This however would require a re-work of the entire combat system with timers. movement speed , etc... which IDK if thats they're planning. on PTS with my commando, i only saw 3-4 abilities pruned which leads me to believe its not morphing into the aforementioned.

 

we'll see. i'd rather have 7.0 delayed again in order to be done right.

[DarkMatterSlifus]

You're given less freedom to choose and pick what you want because it only gives you 3 specific options max for that level, leveling will become boring because of less abilities. Overall im all for ability pruning but not when it gives the player less fun and less choice. Right now there are some talents I like putting together that I will longer be able to do when 7.0 comes out because of how that horrible ability tree is setup

 

This isn't just for one class but every class in the game, lots of builds are going to become nonexistent and useless because of this as well.

[MystyqeofXev]

I am for ability pruning as long as its done right (i.e. - doesn't impact your class's overall function) There are way way too many combat moves.

 

Modern MMOs allow you only 4-6 abiltiies you can use at one time (you can select from more out of combat). the rest its movement/placement skill from the player. This however would require a re-work of the entire combat system with timers. movement speed , etc... which IDK if thats they're planning. on PTS with my commando, i only saw 3-4 abilities pruned which leads me to believe its not morphing into the aforementioned.

 

we'll see. i'd rather have 7.0 delayed again in order to be done right.

 

Gonna respectfully disagree.

 

My WoW UI (Depending on the class) had some 20-30 combat abilities: 12 prime, 8-10 depending on the occasion, and a couple of on-demand or "OH CRAP".

 

This "pruning" is nothing of the sort. It's a way to make life easier for the Devs insofar as balancing. It's also a step towards putting this game on console.

 

You can't reduce everybody to "4-6" abilities, then turn around and talk about skill. If you want a game where you can L-Click (not kidding) your way to max level? New World is THAT way -------------------->.

[TrixxieTriss]

The pruning situation is an absolute joke. We still have some useless abilities populating the task bar, while useful ones have been removed or we are forced to choose between ones we need both of all the time.

 

People who are for this pruning are saying it’s fine because they never did the hardest content solo or played pvp at the highest lvl. If they did, they would know what a s**t show this is going to be once it’s released.

 

I’ve tested 8 classes / combat styles / specs on the PTS and I can say categorically there will be harder pve content that people won’t be able to play solo anymore. Ie, Some veteran chapters and all Mastermode chapters, veteran / MM flash points and veteran / MM uprisings will no longer be playable solo for the vast majority who can currently do them.

 

For those who were complaining there were too many abilities, I can only say you could have easily removed the ones you didn’t think you needed from the task bar. Then the rest of us could have kept our abilities we need for harder content.

 

Of course, Bioware may not be pruning the abilities because people complained. They maybe doing because they are getting ready to make the game compatible for Steam Deck or Xbox. This is the only thing that makes business sense with all the time and resources they’ve pumped into doing it. If they aren’t doing this and it’s just another change for the sake of change, then some people at Bioware should start looking for new jobs in the mobile app industry because swtor development shouldn’t be used for their personal training dummy.

Edited January 9, 2022 by TrixxieTriss

[Zipacnaa]

T

... change for the sake of change ...

 

with the usual "no communication" it's easy to find reason along these lines

[AxelStorm]

Gonna respectfully disagree.

 

My WoW UI (Depending on the class) had some 20-30 combat abilities: 12 prime, 8-10 depending on the occasion, and a couple of on-demand or "OH CRAP".

 

This "pruning" is nothing of the sort. It's a way to make life easier for the Devs insofar as balancing. It's also a step towards putting this game on console.

 

You can't reduce everybody to "4-6" abilities, then turn around and talk about skill. If you want a game where you can L-Click (not kidding) your way to max level? New World is THAT way -------------------->.

 

# of abilities is not synonymous with difficulty. Go play ESO that has 6 usable abilities you can use in combat and tell me its easy.

 

I played 140 hours of New World. The game is a piece of garbage, however, the combat system is alot of fun. Its the one thing they did right (rest is crap). It involves player skill with positioning, movement + knowing how to swing (timing L or R clicks) and would honestly be a blast and challenging in SWTOR (especially as jedi, actually swinging lightsabers).

[JarenWelen]

People who are for this pruning are saying it’s fine because they never did the hardest content solo or played pvp at the highest lvl.

 

I wouldn't even say it's about the hardest content. Even when I'm clearing trash mobs in dailies or FPs, I find it fun to mix in different abilities to keep things varied. If someone else wanted to clear content with the same 4-5 abilities, there was nothing stopping them. As you say, people could always remove abilities they thought were useless. I can honestly say that there's a use for every ability I keep on my toolbars, and very few that I don't keep on there. (Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 across all specs/classes)

 

I really wanted to like the changes, but I managed around 2-3 hours on PTS before I got bored. That's not what you want for a major expansion, and is why I expect to finally step away after 10+ years when 7.0 hits. I love the idea of increased difficulty, but the way it is being done is just not fun for me. I hope it is for someone else.

 

-J

[aeterno]

Ability bloat is a genuine issue and some pruning is due.

 

Now I haven't been on the PTS in a while, so I don't know if this changed, but there are some obvious pitfalls with the whole "choose one" schtick they're choosing not to avoid but to jump headfirst into.

 

Taking a class with a certain amount of mobility and making players choose between core skills they previously utilized, is, strictly speaking, giving players "meaningful choice"... but the overriding feeling for the player will always be not one of "oh wow I get to make impactful decisions for myself how neat" but one of "/s great I get to decide how my toon is handicapped going forward, thanks a lot devs *expletive deleted*".

 

There are a lot of useless abilities on a lot of classes.... abilities that could and should be combined to reduce bloat.

 

But I worry pruning that would otherwise be beneficial and even welcome will be poorly received because reductions of class staples mobility and/or survivability which will inevitably and understandably override everything else. Because no amount of juggling passives can mitigate the sour taste in the mouth from having to stop using some of the abilities you used to rely on.

 

In some way's it'd have been better to just take out what they think should be taken out instead of rubbing the salt in with one more iteration of the "player choice" mantra we all know is ultimately the same baloney it was during the last 3 design philosophies. This way at least with time say a jugg could come to terms with losing half his mobility or survivability with one choice instead of being reminded of it constantly. And that way it would actually simplify everything if that's the goal... as opposed to introducing another myriad of possible combinations that'll at the same time be a game dumbed down but still be impossible to balance because of how everyone gets to now choose their special brand of derp.

Edited January 9, 2022 by aeterno

[AxelStorm]

**Note - I am not defending 7.0 in anyway, but I do see the rational behind it**

 

The MMO market is extremely competitive today. MMO's have to evolve to whats currently popular in order to sustain longevity. SWTOR is a 2nd generation MMO's imo (EQ2, WoW) (1st gen - UO, EQ1, SWG).

 

Generation 3 is less button smashing and more mouse-based with positioning and precision. No one want to stare at their quickbars during combat and this game excels at that. It kills immersion greatly (yes the stories are great , but honestly, immersion by today's standards are direct interaction with the world, not cutscene dialogue + decision paths.

 

Veteran SWTORs are going to argue once you learn and adapt to your class , its not bad. Well, kids today have no patience, let alone in an MMO in today's market when there are so many options and with ubisoft making a new star wars MMO, that could be the nail in the coffin for SWTOR. People want small learning curve and instant gratification.

 

I agree bioware is going about this the wrong way and maybe it boils down to limited resources. Doing a complete overhaul of the combat re-vamp would be unfeasible... (maybe game is loaded w/ spaghetti code or such a change would take too much time).

Edited January 9, 2022 by AxelStorm

[GhostDrone]

Ability bloat was never an issue. Not even back when they had those silly little "only usable on weak targets" abilities, like hilt strike and shoulder slam. They were fun to "RP" with, so to speak, by adding them into your rotation against mundane mobs for the sake of visual flair, which *added* fun. God forbid an MMO lets us have a ton of options, right?

 

Making me pick between Saber Reflect and Mad Dash on my Immortal Jugg isn't getting rid of any bloat. It's annoying the hell out of me by removing things I use all of the time, for no good reason other than... the sake of it, I suppose, like others have said.

 

if they wanted to "confuse" people less, or make this game console-friendly, hide away all the auxiliary abilities by default, similar to how they hide some quests on the map unless you opt into them. There's your streamlined ability profile, completely easy to digest for anyone picking the game up.

 

But nah, I guess that just makes too much sense.

Edited January 10, 2022 by GhostDrone

[Rolodome]

The more experienced players can correct me if I'm misjudging this:

 

My impression is that they are focusing on the wrong end (utilities) as the problem, instead of focusing on core gameplay loop and the problem of class rotations that are almost boringly simplistic sometimes, using a fraction of the class abilities, but are opaque to grasp because of the amount of situational abilities that include damage in them.

 

Take Mad Dash as an example, in PvP, it's easy to imagine the usefulness of it both moving you forward and doing damage (e.g. to interrupt someone interacting with an objective). It's difficult for me to imagine similar use in PvE; in the PvE context, the damage part of it just comes across as confusing and sends the message that it is an ability *for damage* when it's more of a utility. So it might make sense to remove the damage component of it specifically in PvE, to make it clear it's not part of a damage rotation.

 

Another example is Sorc/Sage and Sin/Shadow knockback. Once again, in PvP, the damage component makes sense. In PvE, it at least could have shared utility and damage as a form of knocking an enemy away (if you are playing solo) and hurting them a little bit more, but still, if you play veteran FPs with any frequency, you will with some regularity come across players who use it to damage enemies and end up knocking them *out of* the group's AoE. This is also one of the 1st abilities the class gets, so it's one the player will get accustomed to using, even though its use is so iffy in PvE leveling.

 

I do a lot of solo heroics with companion on dmg, so I have some familiarity with reaching for utility and other such situational choices. So I'm not comfortable with what sounds like is coming, but I do think the setup of things can be confusing and overwhelming. I don't think the answer is to take a jackhammer to the class abilities list and when you get them, which is what they seem to be doing. I think more careful consideration of each ability is needed and they should directly consult with some of the vet players who have a mastery of their class (certainly not me, talking about others), to better understand what they are missing in how abilities get used in different contexts.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Rolodome

[TrixxieTriss]

Ability bloat is a genuine issue and some pruning is due.

 

Now I haven't been on the PTS in a while, so I don't know if this changed, but there are some obvious pitfalls with the whole "choose one" schtick they're choosing not to avoid but to jump headfirst into.

 

Taking a class with a certain amount of mobility and making players choose between core skills they previously utilized, is, strictly speaking, giving players "meaningful choice"... but the overriding feeling for the player will always be not one of "oh wow I get to make impactful decisions for myself how neat" but one of "/s great I get to decide how my toon is handicapped going forward, thanks a lot devs *expletive deleted*".

 

There are a lot of useless abilities on a lot of classes.... abilities that could and should be combined to reduce bloat.

 

But I worry pruning that would otherwise be beneficial and even welcome will be poorly received because reductions of class staples mobility and/or survivability which will inevitably and understandably override everything else. Because no amount of juggling passives can mitigate the sour taste in the mouth from having to stop using some of the abilities you used to rely on.

 

In some way's it'd have been better to just take out what they think should be taken out instead of rubbing the salt in with one more iteration of the "player choice" mantra we all know is ultimately the same baloney it was during the last 3 design philosophies. This way at least with time say a jugg could come to terms with losing half his mobility or survivability with one choice instead of being reminded of it constantly. And that way it would actually simplify everything if that's the goal... as opposed to introducing another myriad of possible combinations that'll at the same time be a game dumbed down but still be impossible to balance because of how everyone gets to now choose their special brand of derp.

 

Please explain how it’s a genuine issue?

No one seems to be able to explain what abilities they think are the bloat and not necessary or useful in harder mode content.

[aeterno]

Please explain how it’s a genuine issue?

No one seems to be able to explain what abilities they think are the bloat and not necessary or useful in harder mode content.

 

Mileage will always vary, but there's a reason some classes got upgrades to how old abilities work as the "new abilities" of the last expansion.

 

Now I don't want a 3 active abilities type of game either, but I can acknowledge that 3 bars of them might not be ideal either.

 

As far as examples go: I don't do the very pinnacle of hard content of this game but I'm skeptical the existence of say slash and strike as base guardian abilities for vigi spec are of positive added value to performance.

 

Perplexingly this is the type of base abilities - abilities that are currently part of no rotation and only see use in the early game - make the cut*, while in the name of de-cluttering we must choose between DCD and mobility. If they wanted 2 abilities less they should have reworked the rotation and how sundering/focus generation works and eliminated abilities that literary see zero use as is.

 

The argument used to be that you needed them before level 10 and before getting your core AC abilities, but since we're starting as that now, the whole early game combat loop could have been reworked to drop the need for them.

 

*This is going by my early PTS experience, haven't seen the later builds, I assume this hasn't changed.

[Floplag]

I am honestly very concerned.

This game never had a bloat problem in my opinion. Yes, many skills were very situational and not often used, but what you needed them you were glad they were there.

The one thing ive always agreed with in the which is better between PvE and PvP argument is that PvP makes you learn ALL your skills, not just a PvE optimal rotation.

As a PvPer in addition to PvE i despise how they are forcing us to choose such things. So many things that are not, rotational, are used in PvP... at least i use them.

IMO no skills should be tree based, save for those specific to the tree such as priming shot for Arsenal... but putting electro dart or other such things in the trees is a massive mistake to me.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I figure the devs are pruning so that they have a template for new combat styles, not necessarily for consoles.

 

But also, people think this game is hard, so perhaps the devs figure they have to simplify combat so that people learn how to do a rotation. In truth, the problem is that mobs die in one hit, so no one has to actually learn anything as they level. Then these same types of folks hop into pvp and flashpoints where they are completely outclassed, and die horribly.

 

In other words, the vanilla game is too easy, which leads to baddies in endgame.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Rion_Starkiller

[OrionSol]

Ive been on test center for a month or more.

 

Some aspects are amazing.

 

Some suck.

 

LEVELING is lame, less abilities is stupid.

[OlBuzzard]

You would think this whole situation would be a little more "black and white" ... to see through. Most claim that it's not that easy.

 

What I want to know is WHY this whole matter isn't a lot simpler to figure out. WHY not? Why make the entire affair (most of what we see in 7.0) such a mess in the first place.

 

WHO SAID everything has to be "not that simple"?

 

WHY in the name of common sense can't we just get this thing fixed?

 

CAN'T ??? or WONT ???

 

Can't never could DO ANYTHING!! And "WONT ...well wont is just wrong and usually is a reflection of a much bigger problem.

 

Not just this mess about "ability pruning" ... ALL of it !!

 

I still want that 3rd option !!!

 

(There's got to be a way!!)

 

(edited)

Edited January 10, 2022 by OlBuzzard

[Rolodome]

I figure the devs are pruning so that they have a template for new combat styles, not necessarily for consoles.

 

But also, people think this game is hard, so perhaps the devs figure they have to simplify combat so that people learn how to do a rotation. In truth, the problem is that mobs die in one hit, so no one has to actually learn anything as they level. Then these same types of folks hop into pvp and flashpoints where they are completely outclassed, and die horribly.

 

In other words, the vanilla game is too easy, which leads to baddies in endgame.

 

I wouldn't agree it's too easy exactly, but that it's too different. SWTOR was at least originally mentioned in marketing as being a game with groups of enemies you can easily dispatch, rather than a few chonky ones, this to make you feel more powerful. I think the leveling experience in its current form does accomplish that feeling, if maybe slightly too much. But once you get to the "real" content (FPs, for example, like you mentioned) this principle changes somewhat. It's no longer about you feeling powerful. It's about you working together with others. And your abilities suddenly fail you for efficiently cutting down enemies; not unless you coordinate your actions properly with the group, which you've had no practice doing. This game missed an opportunity I'd say to give you 2 or 3 companions instead of the one, like most BW RPGs. With that amount, you could at least get closer to practicing the game in a similar way to how it'll be when you do group content. With the 1, you get used to being the big cheese, the rambo, especially with default healy god companions, you don't even have to reflect much at all, just pull and work it out from there.

 

It's kind of strange too because vet FPs were nerfed to allow role neutral, but this really only works as all DPS if you have a bunch of big cheese players who got good through trial by fire solo. It doesn't fit players who are practiced at the trinity of tank/heals/dps, used to being able to focus on rotation and dodge circles and that's it.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, the game modes are pretty vastly different sometimes, even within what you'd think is the same type. Like vet FPs do not have the same expectations as role-enforced. And that causes more problems than a lack of forcing players to become solo pros.

[DeadOptimus]

The MMO market is extremely competitive today. MMO's have to evolve to whats currently popular in order to sustain longevity. SWTOR is a 2nd generation MMO's imo (EQ2, WoW) (1st gen - UO, EQ1, SWG).

 

I'm going to push back on this- mmo's don't sustain themselves by trend chasing. While SWTOR followed a very similar format to WoW initially, there wasn't much in the way of alternate models to follow at the time. That being said, if I wanted to play an ESO or New World style game... I would play either one of those games.

 

WoW shifted extremely strongly toward a more passives/less actives based system for BfA and the players hated it so badly the devs were forced to de-prune for Shadowlands (although they didn't go nearly far enough). Taking away tools isn't the same thing as streamlining, and my concern here is the removal of tools for the sake of trying to appeal to the least common denominator of player who doesn't understand how to make a rotation greater than 4 abilities work.

Edited January 11, 2022 by DeadOptimus

[Sarova]

Does anybody have info on where they are with the pruning right now? I don't pay every spec, but the handful I do play already feel more or less fine as is. Maybe one or two abilities I rarely or never use? Which is fine. The only other time I've experienced pruning is the multiple times Blizzard has done it with WoW, and it's never, ever, been better for it. I really don't want this game to suffer from WoW's mistakes. I got a bad feeling about this.

From my experience on the PTS, there are tiers in each class which will become known as the "stinker tier" (some classes have several of these) because you have to choose between two/three "oh ****" abilities (before we had access to all). It's not that big a deal for me as I'm a soloer so I'm only ever going to selfishly pick the ability that helps me the most. Examples:

 

Sith Inquisitor, Lightning (my main): - Tier/Level 73 pick one of Whirlwind or Phase Walk or Volt Rush. I will always pick Whirlwind (sorry not sorry unranked Huttball). Volt Rush can always get in the bin, but losing Phase Walk is a bit meh. I use Whirlwind far more and at least it's automatically instant cast in 7.0 (thanks for listening to our feedback on that Devs).

 

Sith Assassin: Tier/Level 78, pick one of Reapers Rush, Avoidance or Shroud of Madness. I'm always picking Reapers Rush but losing the reduced cooldowns from Avoidance is the price.

 

Gunnery Trooper: Tier/level 35 is painful - Charged Barrier, Sticky Grenade and Stealth Scan are all in this tree. I'm probably picking Charged Barrier. Tier/level 47 is also painful - Diversion, Supercharged Celerity and Overclock are here. In fact, Gunnery has the most abilities to lose. Tier/Level 60 has Reflexive Shield, Cell Capacitor or Tenacious Defence You will be choosing between Hold the Line and the most evil tier for Gunnery is 73; you'll have to choose between Echoing Deterrence, Hold the Line and Cryo Grenade. I'm seriously thinking of forgetting about Gunnery (which is locked as your first choice spec because Dev reasons) and going with my second choice of Operative.

 

We don't yet know if there's going to be cost (in time via a cooldown or with credits) to change options in the Ability Tree. Right now on the PTS you can change your Ability Tree options as often as you like for no cost.

[Cedia]

Ive been on test center for a month or more.

 

Some aspects are amazing.

 

Some suck.

 

LEVELING is lame, less abilities is stupid.

 

I think that leveling is going to be a huge issue, and this is why I am currently grinding out heroics to 75 on every single one of my characters, regardless of where they currently are in the story.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Cedia

[Sarova]

I think that leveling is going to be a huge issue, and this is why I am currently grinding out heroics to 75 on every single one of my characters, regardless of where they currently are in the story.

From my experience on the PTS (since it reset), if you're starting at level 1 with nothing, yes levelling is a little slower BUT it is nothing like it was years ago when we had role-specific companions and were forced to do EVERY.SINGLE.QUEST. to even get to the next planet. Once they opened character copy, having a character over with a maxxed out legacy makes levelling from 1 much better as you can access the XP and other legacy perks. The fact that you'll have far less abilities in 7.0 at lower levels than you do in live does not matter; once I had access to Legacy Perks, levelling was practically the same. I also copied over a lvl 1 character equipped with the +XP armour set - levelling is even better if you have that.

 

The bigger issue for me is the failure of the weapons slot in the outfitter. getting to 75, buying the basic set of 318 equipment but not being able to equip my preferred weapon in the outfitter. We're all being forced to have the 318 vendor weapons on show (since we can no longer remove and add mods to our preferred weapon). Currently, people reckon the weapon slot in outfitter only works if you're using a class-original spec (I chose assassin main and guardian second on my Sith Warrior, so can't use my preferred weapon for either spec). This needs fixing before launch.

[DarthArturus]

They haven’t. Losing two abilities out of dozens isn’t pruning. Going from dozens to say ten, that is pruning. Swtor has way too many abilities anyway. Btw, my sorcerer and juggernaut lost no abilities that I use, my assassin lost two.