After that livestream..

[Hadsil]

The minimal grand fantasy wish players want they could do easily is to receive messages from Companions, especially love letters from their romance. Acknowledge what is happening. The second minimal is program cinematics, no voice acting needed, of being with your romance. No, not that kind of "being with", not exactly. When you leave the game you can retire to your quarters and there's your romance waiting for you. Close door. End game. When you log in you wake up; there's your romance beside you. Acknowledge the romance exists.

[SaerethDL]

If you have insane expectations — multiple new classes, multiple new stories, multiple new planets — of course you’re going to be disappointed.

 

Don’t misinterpret me: we should want better than we get, and we should expect more from BioWare, but there’s a big difference from realistic expectations and disappointment because your fantasy is not reality.

 

why can't it be a reality? this happened during Shadow of Revan. lol I think it's fairly realistic. I'm not asking for ALL of it, I'm just spit balling ideas.

[SaerethDL]

I fully understand why main storyline gets new additions at speed of a moving glacier. Fully voice acted player character is an incredibly heavy&expensive burden for TOR to carry. PlayerChar alone is 16 different actors on three different languages! 16 x 3!! As long as PC is fully voice acted, any kind of notable story progression is always a major undertaking. I fully understand why they've chosen to slice this thin body of content into ridiculous 30 second micro chapters that get released once in a blue moon. While we at it, I get why there isn't that much new voice acting-based content of any kind coming in. Again, pretty expensive.

 

Rest of the stuff is a tougher pill to swallow. New zones to truly expolore, new planets, new areas. These, too, come super slowly or not at all. Zones, too, are all such contracted airplane dinner-versions of real areas. Storylines take place in Flashpoints that are about as close to " exploring an area inside an MMO" as Mario Kart race tracks would be. Wheres the open world?

 

Where are more frequent and significant updates to GSF, WZs, Ops etc. All of these things could soar quite free of budgetary chains and weights voice acted PC puts on the game.

 

It leaves me wondering just how small the dev team is. Other older MMOs have no trouble occasionally releasing expansions or patches that introduce massive land masses to explore. By comparsion, TOR's track record in this regard is incredibly modest.

 

My insane expectations measure up to somewhere around "Expansion that is roughly equal to size of latest LOTRO expansion" They are a small studio maintaining an age old, fairly unpopular MMO..and pop out expansions that are much larger in scale than TOR's expansions.

 

None of the above should be seen as criticism to current devs as such. I'm sure this boils down to budget and EA figuring game needs no more money or muscle.

 

According to my tinhat, it also boils down to somehow unlikely or disjointed team composition. After Anthem got killed off, TOR inherited some of their devs I'm sure. Somehow, I have a feeling devs inherited are focused on aspects of games that aren't that essential or useful to upgrade in TOR. Character, creation screen/ inventory/UI overhauls scream completely needless " devving for the sake of devving" to me. "Hm, I sure wish paperdoll menu would be overhauled and somehow combined with inventory" - said nobody ever.

 

this is another thing, we (I) don't need fully voiced personal character (just like kotor) if that means us getting plenty of more content. It would be in line with Kotor anyways, you just get dialog choices via text, nothing is wrong with that.

[ralphieceaser]

I mean, its nice for flavor and all

 

No matter how you feel about it, that was quite a lot of work to achieve to separate classes from origin stories, we are likely to find bugs on the way because of it tbh.

 

For me it is quite a big thing because it means I get to play whatever class I like with the storyline I find fitting, like powertech agent or powertech trooper so in the story you are simply an individual who focuses heavily on tech and deadly fire weapons instead of stabby stabs and snipers

 

That also opens the way for new combat styles that i am feeling are definitely in the works, it has opened up a lot of possibilities but that was only because they ve put a lot of resources and time into doing that which is way there is less overall story content. Tbh i would have preferred if they ve scrapped the OP for 7.0 and focused on more story for 7.0 and added the op on a later patch but we ll see how it goes.

[TheVoyant]

***********************

 

(Preface, I've seen this before)

 

For whatever reason, gaming companies use circular logic. "Oh, SWTOR doesn't make as much as it used to," or "The subs plus CM market is 'down'", resulting in less investment, be that quality Developers, or time, or resources.

 

What happens? Well, the game continues to wither on the vine, revenues continue to trend downward, thus justifying less and less resources devoted to the core mechanics of said game, and more and more placed in the CM. (Or "Cash shop")

 

Couple that with a VERY inward looking and insular mindset (often reflected in hires), the belief that the Devs know better or "more than the players", and you get a race to the bottom. Add to that the disbelief when the grand ideas, or any ideas (say an expansion) is lambasted, however respectfully, on the PTR forums, and the result is a "circling of the wagons" resulting in no dialogue (other than the obligatory "We read the boards" comment) with the players.

 

Yes, they see the Iceberg, but it's too late to turn the ship.

 

I don't have a solution because I don't work there. From an outsiders perspective, however, I have to ask, if, as the OP said, much of the new expansion is simply replaying old content, and there is * 1 * OP, and * 1 * FP, in my best Office Space voice: "What is it you would say you do around here?"

 

There's a reason companies hire consultants (cough). Often because the inner workings and day-to-day activities are so "gummed up", they can't figure out how to BE better. (Sometimes they just need an outside voice that tells them, " 'X' is not working, 'Y' is your core system, your employees have become siloed and tunnel-visioned to the point they don't talk with each other or outside their department (or cubicle), oh and you hold way too many meetings").

 

Also, don't get me started on email within a corporation.

 

The fact so many of us can see this and its that transparent and they still can't is mindboggling. Well put together assessment and I'm gonna have to agree with the majority of it.

 

Most of us simply wanted new content instead they decided to remove an excessive amount of good things and offer us a couple random things in exchange... Which ultimately feels like a cheap way to exploit people for more money by forcing more grind and removing enjoyment.

 

I made sure my sub runs out a couple days after 7.0 launches simply to see all the doubters realize what the PTS cats have been screaming about nonstop.

[DarthCasus]

No matter how you feel about it, that was quite a lot of work to achieve to separate classes from origin stories, we are likely to find bugs on the way because of it tbh.

 

For me it is quite a big thing because it means I get to play whatever class I like with the storyline I find fitting, like powertech agent or powertech trooper so in the story you are simply an individual who focuses heavily on tech and deadly fire weapons instead of stabby stabs and snipers

 

That also opens the way for new combat styles that i am feeling are definitely in the works, it has opened up a lot of possibilities but that was only because they ve put a lot of resources and time into doing that which is way there is less overall story content. Tbh i would have preferred if they ve scrapped the OP for 7.0 and focused on more story for 7.0 and added the op on a later patch but we ll see how it goes.

 

I am in no way convinced that you have any idea how much work these mechanical changes took and I wish you'd stop trying to emphasize it because it's already a poor defense of how small this 10th anniversary expansion is going to be. What you described is literally fluff and supposition.

 

I'm a story fan, but I play all content barring ranked. Unless they have a favorable catch up mechanic in hand, I'll not be catching the other 50 characters I have up to the current story because I gave up on that long ago. I dont know if they've accounted for the fact that people were not going to bring up their legacy stables through the expansions and subsequent storylines that drizzled in afterward a dozen or so times. Story is the heart of the game, and I love that, but there is little to no incentive to do it so many times. It ultimately is a limited entertainment tool and this expansion as we have it is centered around revitalizing the want to re-explore that old content. Again. I honestly do not care for combat styles as they are because it falls short of what I hoped, and the balancing changes don't exactly spark excitement.

 

You can as a Powertech in the Agent story. Great! Now what? That is flavor. It is a different coat of paint, which barring the stealth aspect, does not really do anything radical for the player experience. Classes are mirrors. Running through the Warrior story as a Assassin sounds cool-ish, but its fluff and brings nothing new to the experience, rather a shuffle instead. Also, I have no clue how many players are actually playing the new story content but it's so far ahead of where people are starting out with a severe lack of streamlining, with a lack of choices to alleviate the agitation felt from BioWare's awful default selections, that I would be surprised that even 5% of the playerbase has seen Echoes of Oblivion at this point.

 

You mention opening possibilities with the introduction of combat styles, which I want to agree with, but until that is demonstrated I am going to have to shelf that with other ideas that seem like they should be feasible but aren't due to restrictions behind the scenes, like hood toggles, hair under hoods/hats, day/night cycles, etc.

[xordevoreaux]

It leaves me wondering just how small the dev team is.

Consider one day reading the credits.

[Kalnarius]

I think what we got here is another expansion and another way to replay old content. They are still not investing enough money into their game. What I want is a couple new classes, a couple new races, and few new full open world planets with planet quest and class mission quest.

 

A couple new warzones, new reward system for unranked warzones. A couple new raids. A new group activity to do, maybe some open world pvp zones. Pazaak, Betting on Duels in a tournament, Pod racing against actual players, racing starships, or open world space travel to your destination. Maybe we go around and find hidden treasures on different planets throughout the galaxy?

 

Maybe we can customize and design our own lightsabers and weapons? Maybe give us more things that can make us stand out in the galaxy? Unique flairs that you don't have to be good at ranked to get, unique weapons that you don't have to grind ranked to get.

 

"Wheres the beef?!" we need something beefy. I said this a long time ago, if you can't find the support from your bosses, do a kickstarter. Most of us here would gladly support it and donate to the cause. I'll pay for the expansion too, and I'll pay for a sub.

 

Kinda love how I keep seeing PVP'ers keep commenting what about PVP changes/revamps whatever to the swtor, when in july annoucement livestream they said PVP changes will not be coming til Feb. or March. probably when the new PVP season hits for the game. They are getting pretty much their own patch of just for PVP changes but it will be bit before it is ready. People keep thinking the changes are coming out at 7.0 for PVP which is not how Bioware does PVP changes or revamps they never come out with the launch of the expansion.

[ZionHalcyon]

If you have insane expectations — multiple new classes, multiple new stories, multiple new planets — of course you’re going to be disappointed.

 

Don’t misinterpret me: we should want better than we get, and we should expect more from BioWare, but there’s a big difference from realistic expectations and disappointment because your fantasy is not reality.

 

I agree with this.

 

I also think there is an impatience Factor as well. Anyone with a brain and a bit of foresight can see combat styles was done as a way to fulfill player requests for new classes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the first of these arrive within the next year.

[-Glyndo-]

A class change on a fundamental level with the complete separation of story and combat is pretty much the beefiest mechanical update we will be getting during the entire lifespan of this game.

 

Well, they could always NGE the game....that would be beefier....

 

The difference between that EQ expac that was mentioned and SWTORs upcoming expac...one is made to cater to the already existing player base...the other, to cater to new players and bait to get subs up.

[SaerethDL]

If you have insane expectations — multiple new classes, multiple new stories, multiple new planets — of course you’re going to be disappointed.

 

Don’t misinterpret me: we should want better than we get, and we should expect more from BioWare, but there’s a big difference from realistic expectations and disappointment because your fantasy is not reality.

 

 

 

 

I agree with this.

 

I also think there is an impatience Factor as well. Anyone with a brain and a bit of foresight can see combat styles was done as a way to fulfill player requests for new classes, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the first of these arrive within the next year.

 

wrong, guess you guys werent here for shadow of revan.

 

Explore Savage New Worlds:

Rishi and Yavin 4

Travel to the tropical world of Rishi, a dangerous pirate haven at the edge of the galaxy, then continue your story on Yavin 4, home of the fearsome Massassi warriors!

 

Fight in New High-Level Flashpoints and Operations – Team with allies to face the most epic foes in the galaxy with two new role-neutral Flashpoints, four Hard Mode Flashpoints and ten new powerful bosses across two Level 60 Operations.

 

Unlike previous expansions, Shadow of Revan also includes eight class-exclusive missions, one for each class, that tie into the expansion's primary faction storylines.[7]

 

So, multiple planets, multiple flashpoints, multiple operations, multiple stories. Basically everything I asked for has been done before, It is not unrealistic or unreasonable

Edited November 20, 2021 by SaerethDL

[Phazonfreak]

So, multiple planets, multiple flashpoints, multiple operations, multiple stories. Basically everything I asked for has been done before, It is not unrealistic or unreasonable

 

I think the crucial difference is that they are not saying that wanting a beefy expansion is unrealistic or unreasonable, but that expecting one is. I totally agree with that sentiment myself considering the 10 year development cycle and current state of the game, just as I have adjusted my expectations accordingly. I believe that forcing oneself to stick to the measurements of older releases or even competing MMORPGs is a rather futile endeavor, if the company behind that game has no inclination or motive to stick to that as well.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[MystyqeofXev]

Q: How hard would it be to generate excitement AND revenue at the same time?

 

A: Not very.

 

******************

 

Austin (UPI / AP) In light of the tenth anniversary of the release of Star Wars the Old Republic, EA has announced that they are planning a number of events and giveaways for all players. (Some restrictions apply). These will include, but will not be limited to: Pets, titles, flair, tunings, the Cartel Market, in-game activities with Developer interaction, as well as other celebratory activities.

 

Game Director John Smith said, in an interview with {GAMING WEBSITE}, "We hope to share our love of all things Star Wars with the fans, whether they are subbed or not." He outlined some, but not all, of the expected things players can look forward to when logging in to the game.

 

"Anyone logging in during the period from Dec 14th, 2021 to January 5th, 2022 will receive a flair and a pet." (Note - Flair is an appearance modifier that goes around the characters in-game portrait). He continued "All World Boss will drop items, that when combined will create a new mount. Also during this time, vendors will be selling "retired", "no longer available", or otherwise limited items, and Cartel packs for in-game credits"

 

Finally he added, "As a special bonus, Devs will spawn as unique World Boss MOBs (Mobile Objects), and defeating all of them will reward another unique gift, that I am not allowed to reveal"

 

*****************************

 

There. Was that so hard?

[SaerethDL]

I think the crucial difference is that they are not saying that wanting a beefy expansion is unrealistic or unreasonable, but that expecting one is. I totally agree with that sentiment myself considering the 10 year development cycle and current state of the game, just as I have adjusted my expectations accordingly. I believe that forcing oneself to stick to the measurements of older releases or even competing MMORPGs is a rather futile endeavor, if the company behind that game has no inclination or motive to stick to that as well.

 

I mean we don't expect it anymore, that is why I made this thread my man,, giving suggestions and ideas like bringing back paid expansions, going buy 2 play, doing a kickstarter.. other ideas to put in the game, etc etc. What I'm saying is it not a pipe dream or unrealistic like the person I quoted, it is reasonable and has been done before, and at the end of the day really isn't expecting that much, not compared to some mmos. I think yall are just settling for less, tempering your expectations and going along with the status quo. If you are not happy you need to speak up, this game deserves better.

Edited November 20, 2021 by SaerethDL

[Ulrah]

Given what appears to be a limited budget/resources, I don't understand why so much effort was devoted to removing from the game rather than adding to it. The only real complaint I have heard on the additions is a need for more (particularly with regard to story).

 

If we were looking at the same set of additions to the game, paired with bug fixes instead of inept attempts to overhaul the game's systems (in many cases through complete removal), I would personally have no complaints. I'm still excited to play a fresh char with the new combat styles, but probably won't stick around after story with 7.0 systems.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ulrah

[ralphieceaser]

Given what appears to be a limited budget/resources, I don't understand why so much effort was devoted to removing from the game rather than adding to it. The only real complaint I have heard on the additions is a need for more (particularly with regard to story).

 

If we were looking at the same set of additions to the game, paired with bug fixes instead of inept attempts to overhaul the game's systems (in many cases through complete removal), I would personally have no complaints. I'm still excited to play a fresh char with the new combat styles, but probably won't stick around after story with 7.0 systems.

Well separating stories from classes to increase replayability for us who want a more fitting class combination in the origin story probably took quite a lot of resources, updating UIs and remaking the system of advanced classes also took quite a bit of resources too, I like the new system since the choices are a bit more relevant to your core abilities rather than defensive/cd ones.

 

The point was for the class changes to try to balance the playing field and try to reduce certain problems, such as stuns in pvp being too much, with stuns as a choice for many classes we now will have less people with stuns around for example, we ll see how it goes, mercs keeping all their dcds i find problematic but we ll see.

 

The combat style system also opens the way for new classes as well to be added since before they couldnt add a new class since it would require an entire new origin story.

 

As a person who cares about class gameplay and choices i am quite excited, plus the fact that i ll be replaying some origin stories so i can have a character with a class i prefer more.

For example i didnt like trooper or smuggler classes but i did love their mirror empire ones and I always wanted to be in the republic side as a non force user and I can finally be a powertech-sniper in the trooper storyline

 

I can understand that this is clearly not everyone's cup of tea but well, cant please everyone.

[Freeda_Nadd]

~Snip~

 

I find myself agreeing with this in its entirety. While I am probably a little more enthused about the changes with letting us play as different specs (Always wanted to go zap-zap on my Knight for old KOTOR/KOTOR 2 combat mixing sake), this is as fluff as it gets. Yes, there will be balance changes and number shuffling, but overall this is hard for me to call an 'expansion' when there is no real expanding going on here. I actually have not caught up to Echoes of Oblivion because I tuned out during the Nathema stuff personally when it came out and instead have focused on RP, but I watch my partner's playthroughs and have no reason to feel the hype behind the newer story stuff.

 

I would enjoy actual content and regular updates to what we do have already. If they added certain tombs to return to a night time Korriban for endgame, or a Tython in rebuilding that tied in the Kalikori settlers, or reputation areas for the old planets and something more entertaining to revitalize old daily zones instead of GD Conquest, I'd be more than happy.

[TheVoyant]

Given what appears to be a limited budget/resources, I don't understand why so much effort was devoted to removing from the game rather than adding to it. The only real complaint I have heard on the additions is a need for more (particularly with regard to story).

 

This is why so few of us are excited for 7.0. Pretty much the most obvious thing in the world. How to excite players? New content. How not to excite players? Take away a lot of things they like in exchange for a few less things they might tolerate eventually.

 

Just genuinely feels like either they don't care about their product or their consumers wants & would rather punish their base with weird unwanted decisions. Almost feels like a passive aggressive attack at this point. "Oh you don't like this ability as a choice? We'll just take it away completely then."

 

And the tiny bits of their logic you can find buried in weird interviews or discussions just make no sense. Like the "arms race" comparison to classes. No one was complaining about how powerful classes were just that a few needed brought up to the same level or have more skills added. Instead they downgrade?

 

If they had a track record of success or anything to give the benefit of the doubt we could. But they don't so we're left to add up the facts and right now it points to being a disaster.

Edited November 22, 2021 by TheVoyant

[Toraak]

wrong, guess you guys werent here for shadow of revan.

 

Explore Savage New Worlds:

Rishi and Yavin 4

Travel to the tropical world of Rishi, a dangerous pirate haven at the edge of the galaxy, then continue your story on Yavin 4, home of the fearsome Massassi warriors!

 

Fight in New High-Level Flashpoints and Operations – Team with allies to face the most epic foes in the galaxy with two new role-neutral Flashpoints, four Hard Mode Flashpoints and ten new powerful bosses across two Level 60 Operations.

 

Unlike previous expansions, Shadow of Revan also includes eight class-exclusive missions, one for each class, that tie into the expansion's primary faction storylines.[7]

 

So, multiple planets, multiple flashpoints, multiple operations, multiple stories. Basically everything I asked for has been done before, It is not unrealistic or unreasonable

 

Guess someone forgot SoR was a PAID expansion. We have not gotten a paid expansion since SoR. They have all been Free to subscribers. Of course we won't get as much as that.

 

For the record I'd have no problems having a paid Expansion if it got us more content in that expansion.

[Freeda_Nadd]

Guess someone forgot SoR was a PAID expansion. We have not gotten a paid expansion since SoR. They have all been Free to subscribers. Of course we won't get as much as that.

 

For the record I'd have no problems having a paid Expansion if it got us more content in that expansion.

 

Funny enough, I would believe that they are making more money today through the CM than they did with its earlier rendition+paid expansion cost which was a 1 time thing anyhow. Regardless of how much profit they generate, its clearly not going back into the game. How else do you pay your shareholders and exec bonuses!?