PVP? The problem?

[xXSchmedlyXx]

because that's the game: play with and against other players (as opposed to NPC) to achieve a certain objective.

 

honestly, all the ******** rhetoric from BW regarding deserter debuffs and consideration for "the other 15 players in the WZ," you'd think they'd do something about players "ruining the experience of others who are literally trying to play the win conditions of the map.".

Yeah but objectives are not fun for me. In my opinion, running huttballs all day long is mindnumbing. That's not pvp. You can run balls in pve. I play pvp to fight other players. I have a whole lot more fun running around in mid and just cut to pieces cleaving. I get why people don't like people who DM, but I'm not gonna be toxic to you when you just go for stealth caps on their pylon the entire game. So don't be toxic to me when I damage farm in mid.

 

Also I only q regs these days for 2 reasons. Either ranked isn't popping (which is 75% of the day). Or I need to grind out valor on a toon so I can q ranked on him. That's it.

And I'm not gonna stealth cap pylons in hypergate to grind valor. And I'm not gonna sap plant a door in voidstar while waiting for ranked to pop.

Edited November 10, 2021 by xXSchmedlyXx

[Opiklo]

Yeah but objectives are not fun for me. In my opinion, running huttballs all day long is mindnumbing. That's not pvp. You can run balls in pve. I play pvp to fight other players. I have a whole lot more fun running around in mid and just cut to pieces cleaving. I get why people don't like people who DM, but I'm not gonna be toxic to you when you just go for stealth caps on their pylon the entire game. So don't be toxic to me when I damage farm in mid.

 

Also I only q regs these days for 2 reasons. Either ranked isn't popping (which is 75% of the day). Or I need to grind out valor on a toon so I can q ranked on him. That's it.

And I'm not gonna stealth cap pylons in hypergate to grind valor. And I'm not gonna sap plant a door in voidstar while waiting for ranked to pop.

 

the funny thing is:

 

in order to win you need the deathmatch guys in HB.

if you dont control the spawn of the ball, you wont get the ball. if you dont have the ball you cant run it.

 

sure you need someone to run the ball, too.

 

the really annoying mates are operative heals who think standing in end zone is helping their team.

the team gets demolished because of no heal and they are mad because no one is runnig the ball, which they cant get, because they get demolished due to a lack of healing.

 

And those mates fancy themselves important.

 

its pure comedy.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Opiklo

[limenutpen]

You can do Damage and be helpful in an objective WZ.

The thing is if you do it completely wrong. Like people standing in the defensive goal side, trying to run after stealth.

Traditional HB map but also Vandin is a bad example for Objective play cause if you stay doing damage at mid it actually helps control the game, and the stealth spawn they have will be useless. Problem is when people stay in the lower pit, or on there defensive goal side.

The problem in doing damage only is in the more dynamic warzone i.e. ODG, AH, NC. In these game you have to use your brains.

[CheesyEZ]

Yeah but objectives are not fun for me. In my opinion, running huttballs all day long is mindnumbing. That's not pvp. You can run balls in pve. I play pvp to fight other players. I have a whole lot more fun running around in mid and just cut to pieces cleaving. I get why people don't like people who DM, but I'm not gonna be toxic to you when you just go for stealth caps on their pylon the entire game. So don't be toxic to me when I damage farm in mid.

 

yes. it is. you can say you don't like that kind of pvp. but it's factually and patently incorrect to state that it is not pvp. it is competing directly against another player, whether to move an object across a line or control an object. I cannot convey just how idiotic people sound when they say objective pvp isn't pvp. just say you don't like it and move on.

 

DM is a kind of pvp, and it's the only one you like? ok. cool.

 

 

the really annoying mates are operative heals who think standing in end zone is helping their team.

 

and the sins who spam ops chat with "EZ! EZ!" while the other team controls spawn. lul

Edited November 10, 2021 by CheesyEZ

[Floplag]

Yeah but objectives are not fun for me. In my opinion, running huttballs all day long is mindnumbing. That's not pvp. You can run balls in pve. I play pvp to fight other players. I have a whole lot more fun running around in mid and just cut to pieces cleaving. I get why people don't like people who DM, but I'm not gonna be toxic to you when you just go for stealth caps on their pylon the entire game. So don't be toxic to me when I damage farm in mid.

 

Also I only q regs these days for 2 reasons. Either ranked isn't popping (which is 75% of the day). Or I need to grind out valor on a toon so I can q ranked on him. That's it.

And I'm not gonna stealth cap pylons in hypergate to grind valor. And I'm not gonna sap plant a door in voidstar while waiting for ranked to pop.

 

Heres the thing, for others, it is fun. Cooperative play, needing a team to work together to achieve a goal... for some death match is boring.

For me, losing is boring... i play to win. Doesnt matter the map type or game mode, i take no pleasure in big numbers in a loss.

Ive never understood that mentality in these games, and i dont think i ever will, but to each their own i guess.

[limenutpen]

Ive never understood that mentality in these games, and i dont think i ever will, but to each their own i guess.

 

Doing 20k dps in a WZ or Arena for that matter is like Messi or Ronaldo, having twenty shots on target and not scoring a goal, and there team losing the game for 2 - 0. Those farming for numbers should stay playing with a dummy and if you just like kills do Arenas. But even in that one DPS alone want cut it. There is a threshold of DPS you need to do but above that it starts to become useless, more so with Dot specs which tend to be those with high numbers but not able to kill anyone.

[Obroa-Skai]

Doing 20k dps in a WZ or Arena for that matter is like Messi or Ronaldo, having twenty shots on target and not scoring a goal, and there team losing the game for 2 - 0. Those farming for numbers should stay playing with a dummy and if you just like kills do Arenas. But even in that one DPS alone want cut it. There is a threshold of DPS you need to do but above that it starts to become useless, more so with Dot specs which tend to be those with high numbers but not able to kill anyone.

 

I agree, i won loads of arenas, reg or ranked, sometimes scoring 6 or 7 kills in the whole match and the majority of time i had to run, hide, heal, kite etc, making my dps output itself really miserable.

 

Numbers in PVP assume all another meaning, if not no meaning.

[xXSchmedlyXx]

I'll rephrase the statement about objectives not being pvp. They're not pvp to me. It might be pvp to you, but I just don't consider that to be pvp.

 

As for you saying to go play arenas. I will. As soon as unranked arenas are released. I can't damage farm in ranked. You play a jugg with cut to pieces in ranked. It's an autoloss for you. And I actually care about winning in ranked.

 

As for you "playing to win." I do as well. But my definition of winning is different than yours. 10k+ dps is a win for me. Even if they get 6 huttball goals to our 0. I personally won't even care. It's another 10k dps game.

Edited November 11, 2021 by xXSchmedlyXx

[Floplag]

Doing 20k dps in a WZ or Arena for that matter is like Messi or Ronaldo, having twenty shots on target and not scoring a goal, and there team losing the game for 2 - 0. Those farming for numbers should stay playing with a dummy and if you just like kills do Arenas. But even in that one DPS alone want cut it. There is a threshold of DPS you need to do but above that it starts to become useless, more so with Dot specs which tend to be those with high numbers but not able to kill anyone.

 

I disagree, its more like those guys having super flashy fantastic dribbling and balls skills but never taking a shot.

If you take shots you are trying to win, most of the number framers openly say they could care less so... no shots are taken.

[Floplag]

I'll rephrase the statement about objectives not being pvp. They're not pvp to me. It might be pvp to you, but I just don't consider that to be pvp.

 

As for you saying to go play arenas. I will. As soon as unranked arenas are released. I can't damage farm in ranked. You play a jugg with cut to pieces in ranked. It's an autoloss for you. And I actually care about winning in ranked.

 

As for you "playing to win." I do as well. But my definition of winning is different than yours. 10k+ dps is a win for me. Even if they get 6 huttball goals to our 0. I personally won't even care. It's another 10k dps game.

 

Define it however you wish but whether you consider it thus or not, is moot.. its the defined criteria for how to win the match.

Look im not saying damage or kills dont matter, of course they do, in context. Farm numbers, farm kills, but do it in a manner that fits that criteria, dont be off away from anything that matters chasing some random kill, thats all the rest of us are asking. Meet us half way.

You can have good/great numbers, and still play how the map is designed, i do it all the time.

[JediMasterAlex]

As for you "playing to win." I do as well. But my definition of winning is different than yours. 10k+ dps is a win for me. Even if they get 6 huttball goals to our 0. I personally won't even care. It's another 10k dps game.

 

This is such a bizarre viewpoint to me. I don't understand how it ever became widespread. There is literally a victory and a defeat message when you win or lose a match. There's no ambiguity. The game sets the conditions.

 

Apparently moophy's definition of winning is stucking matches. Do you think that's valid as well? What if someone else decides they'd like to roleplay off to the side during matches, and they consider it a win if it evolves into erp. Is that okay too?

 

And to further the point: the devs designed the warzones to be played with the objectives in mind. That intent obviously trumps whatever completely subjective conditions you come up with. It's like you're sitting across a chess board with chess pieces on it, ready to play an opposing chess player, but you decide you'd rather play checkers with the chess pieces. Why? If you want to play checkers, go play checkers, ie, a game where you can just deathmatch to your heart's content.

 

I usually don't get involved in these debates because I don't really care that much, and I barely play regs because I enjoy ranked a lot more. But every once in a while I see a post that truly baffles me.

Edited November 11, 2021 by JediMasterAlex

[TrixxieTriss]

This is such a bizarre viewpoint to me. I don't understand how it ever became widespread. There is literally a victory and a defeat message when you win or lose a match. There's no ambiguity. The game sets the conditions.

 

Apparently moophy's definition of winning is stucking matches. Do you think that's valid as well? What if someone else decides they'd like to roleplay off to the side during matches, and they consider it a win if it evolves into erp. Is that okay too?

 

And to further the point: the devs designed the warzones to be played with the objectives in mind. That intent obviously trumps whatever completely subjective conditions you come up with. It's like you're sitting across a chess board with chess pieces on it, ready to play an opposing chess player, but you decide you'd rather play checkers with the chess pieces. Why? If you want to play checkers, go play checkers, ie, a game where you can just deathmatch to your heart's content.

 

I usually don't get involved in these debates because I don't really care that much, and I barely play regs because I enjoy ranked a lot more. But every once in a while I see a post that truly baffles me.

 

Great points and good analogies.

[CheesyEZ]

Apparently moophy's definition of winning is stucking matches. Do you think that's valid as well? What if someone else decides they'd like to roleplay off to the side during matches, and they consider it a win if it evolves into erp. Is that okay too?

I lul'd.

 

(now I'm waiting for a warning for a post that didn't constructively contribute to the conversation )

[xXSchmedlyXx]

Apparently moophy's definition of winning is stucking matches. Do you think that's valid as well? What if someone else decides they'd like to roleplay off to the side during matches, and they consider it a win if it evolves into erp. Is that okay too?

I I like the analogy, but I'm just making sure, did you just compare literally throwing a ranked match with someone choosing to damage farm in an unranked match? Moophy stucks games for 2 reasons. He doesn't like the players, or someone doesn't do what he says. Also your analogy is flawed. You are comparing someone who doesn't abide by the rules of ranked to someone who doesn't abide by the rules of unranked. Ranked is by all standards a competitive gamemode, while unranked is a casual gamemode. You won't see people asking someone to leave q in unranked because they got 10k dps and 50 kills with 0 objective points. You won't see someone asking someone else to leave q in unranked because they were erping in chat, and /clubdancing (unless it's Deadofwinter, but he doesn't ask, he screams in genchat). You will see people asking someone to leave q in ranked, when they get globaled and then say that they don't care about ranked. Because ranked is a competitive gamemode. You q it, to take it seriously.

 

And to further the point: the devs designed the warzones to be played with the objectives in mind. That intent obviously trumps whatever completely subjective conditions you come up with. It's like you're sitting across a chess board with chess pieces on it, ready to play an opposing chess player, but you decide you'd rather play checkers with the chess pieces. Why? If you want to play checkers, go play checkers, ie, a game where you can just deathmatch to your heart's content.

I agree, BioWare designed regs to be played with objectives in mind. And again a good analogy. But it falls short. I want to play SWTOR pvp. Not another game. SWTOR. You can bet, that if there was a "deathmatch" in SWTOR, I would be playing that instead of regs. However, there isn't. And I know people will say arenas are a "deathmatch" but you know as well as I do Caecus that that isn't true. Ranked arenas are by all standards a game of survival. You'll see juggs doing 50k damage and just running, but still winning. The only number that matters in ranked, is the "damage taken" value. So until a "deathmatch" is actually added, there will still be damage farmers in objective based warzones, and I will be one of them.

 

I usually don't get involved in these debates because I don't really care that much, and I barely play regs because I enjoy ranked a lot more. But every once in a while I see a post that truly baffles me.

I rarely q into unranked as well, because I enjoy ranked a lot more. However the game is designed that you have to q unranked (albeit briefly) before you can q ranked. So unfortunately I have to play huttballs. Also, ranked pvp pops happen at certain times of the day, while unranked pops almost 24/7 (with breaks inbetween pops).

 

I will concede that damage farming doesn't make sense. And sometimes I run my mouth a bit too much and need to find a shoe fast. And caring about winning in ranked, but not caring about winning in unranked might baffle some. But the point is. A lot of people, myself included, don't care about objectives. And players like this are not exclusive to SWTOR. Every pvp game with objectives will have someone playing simply to pvp. Everything from SWTOR to freaking Roblox. Until SWTOR implements an unranked deathmatch gamemode separate from unranked objectives. There will always be people who dps farm. Simply because the devs underestimated how much people play pvp just for the sole purpose of killing.

Edited November 11, 2021 by xXSchmedlyXx

[CheesyEZ]

Ranked is by all standards a competitive gamemode, while unranked is a casual gamemode. You won't see people asking someone to leave q in unranked because they got 10k dps and 50 kills with 0 objective points. You won't see someone asking someone else to leave q in unranked because they were erping in chat, and /clubdancing (unless it's Deadofwinter, but he doesn't ask, he screams in genchat). You will see people asking someone to leave q in ranked, when they get globaled and then say that they don't care about ranked. Because ranked is a competitive gamemode. You q it, to take it seriously.

you don't see ppl raging all the time about players ignoring objectives? I do. I even get the occasional whisper, and I don't even avoid objectives much.

 

on the other hand, I had a little fun CCing Jack'frost or w/e he name was on CD after he ran his mouth in AHG about *********** using CC. but then, he kept going to the "off node" so maybe I just bought time for me team to cap and win (which we did). it was great fun. mezz. /dance. smile irl as he hurls insults. dancing has its place.

[JediMasterAlex]

I I like the analogy, but I'm just making sure, did you just compare literally throwing a ranked match with someone choosing to damage farm in an unranked match? Moophy stucks games for 2 reasons. He doesn't like the players, or someone doesn't do what he says. Also your analogy is flawed. You are comparing someone who doesn't abide by the rules of ranked to someone who doesn't abide by the rules of unranked. Ranked is by all standards a competitive gamemode, while unranked is a casual gamemode. You won't see people asking someone to leave q in unranked because they got 10k dps and 50 kills with 0 objective points. You won't see someone asking someone else to leave q in unranked because they were erping in chat, and /clubdancing (unless it's Deadofwinter, but he doesn't ask, he screams in genchat). You will see people asking someone to leave q in ranked, when they get globaled and then say that they don't care about ranked. Because ranked is a competitive gamemode. You q it, to take it seriously.

 

I agree that the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that deciding for yourself what constitutes "winning" is not a good policy.

 

I agree, BioWare designed regs to be played with objectives in mind. And again a good analogy. But it falls short. I want to play SWTOR pvp. Not another game. SWTOR. You can bet, that if there was a "deathmatch" in SWTOR, I would be playing that instead of regs. However, there isn't. And I know people will say arenas are a "deathmatch" but you know as well as I do Caecus that that isn't true. Ranked arenas are by all standards a game of survival. You'll see juggs doing 50k damage and just running, but still winning. The only number that matters in ranked, is the "damage taken" value. So until a "deathmatch" is actually added, there will still be damage farmers in objective based warzones, and I will be one of them.

 

Correct, I've actually had to make the point to people on these forums that arenas are not deathmatches in any meaningful way. And I guess I understand only wanting to play swtor pvp, but I don't think it's so unique that there aren't other options out there that would satisfy the number-farming mentality.

 

I will concede that damage farming doesn't make sense. And sometimes I run my mouth a bit too much and need to find a shoe fast. And caring about winning in ranked, but not caring about winning in unranked might baffle some. But the point is. A lot of people, myself included, don't care about objectives. And players like this are not exclusive to SWTOR. Every pvp game with objectives will have someone playing simply to pvp. Everything from SWTOR to freaking Roblox. Until SWTOR implements an unranked deathmatch gamemode separate from unranked objectives. There will always be people who dps farm. Simply because the devs underestimated how much people play pvp just for the sole purpose of killing.

 

The desire to ignore objectives and just kill other players makes sense to me, even if I don't do it myself. My main beef was just the "I define winning differently" part.

 

I also think there are degrees of damage farming. There have been times where I go into a warzone and want to cleave as madness, so I usually go to mid. But when the opportunity presents itself, I'll cap the point, or stop a cap. And If it's clear that I'm needed elsewhere I'll rotate as long as there's some action to be had, etc. In other words, as many others point out, there are ways to still do big damage and participate in objective play (yes, maybe it costs a few gcds here or there). No one is demanding that people solo guard nodes.

[Floplag]

I Ranked is by all standards a competitive gamemode, while unranked is a casual gamemode. You won't see people asking someone to leave q in unranked because they got 10k dps and 50 kills with 0 objective points. You won't see someone asking someone else to leave q in unranked because they were erping in chat, and /clubdancing (unless it's Deadofwinter, but he doesn't ask, he screams in genchat). You will see people asking someone to leave q in ranked, when they get globaled and then say that they don't care about ranked. Because ranked is a competitive gamemode. You q it, to take it seriously.

.

 

Honestly, i find this a bit dismissive, why do you get to decide what is, or is not, competitive? And why does that make it ok to ruin that experience for others?

 

In truth coming into regs and not playing the game as designed farming damage is for us no different than moophy throwing in ranked. I fully expect ill get flamed for that and im not suggesing they are the same thing by any means, but the end result is the same, both are cases of people deciding their want is more important than everyone else in the match and ruining it for them.

 

I cant believe im about to say this, but... You mention deadofwinter as a problem, but at least he generally tries to win while he runs his mouth, or at least has in matches ive played with him of late... i would rather have a person with verbal diarrhea making an effort than a premade farming damage pointlessly as we lose every single time.

[Floplag]

The desire to ignore objectives and just kill other players makes sense to me, even if I don't do it myself. My main beef was just the "I define winning differently" part.

 

Exactly correct, the thing ive never understood is why is it either or?

Fam damage, just do it in a manner that supports winning, you dont have to choose... consciously saying no im going to just run over here away from anything that matters is actually counter productive to damage farming. Youre more likely to get damage, where the people are, unless they are stupid enough to chase you.

So farm away, just do it on the nodes and dont give up the control points, it forces them to come to you, lol

[CheesyEZ]

 

I cant believe im about to say this, but... You mention deadofwinter as a problem, but at least he generally tries to win while he runs his mouth, or at least has in matches ive played with him of late... i would rather have a person with verbal diarrhea making an effort than a premade farming damage pointlessly as we lose every single time.

he gives up immediately if he doesn't get his way at a node. then sits in a corner and runs his mouth. I have him on ignore, but you still see him drop left. and if the other team caps, he just sits in a corner the rest of the match, and I see players arguing with him in chat.

 

I would say that makes him exactly like moophy. of course...once again, BW created this **** show with the deserter debuff. normally a player would just leave when they give up. now dead dude and some <sinister syndicate>(?) person just sit there mocking everyone.

 

I've noticed a lot of people straightup leaving during the lopsided DM matches recently. this is very recent...like the past week or two. lot of backfill that I haven't seen since 5.x. I think now that GS is no longer a thing, the only reason for casual/pve-ish players to stay in the match is for the win (GS awarded participation credit). and it's just not worth their time or mental energy to stick around w/o progressing their quest objectives. iunno. just speculation.

[TrixxieTriss]

 

I've noticed a lot of people straightup leaving during the lopsided DM matches recently. this is very recent...like the past week or two. lot of backfill that I haven't seen since 5.x. I think now that GS is no longer a thing, the only reason for casual/pve-ish players to stay in the match is for the win (GS awarded participation credit). and it's just not worth their time or mental energy to stick around w/o progressing their quest objectives. iunno. just speculation.

 

It’s probably the case. Which is why the win only requirement and the deserter debuff together actually drive player participation down.

 

Imagine how it’s going to be when the new gearing system is linked to completing a weekly and you get multiple matches of players not trying to win. The frustration lvls will increase across the board for people with limited play time. Which will possibly cause less people to pvp which leads to worse match making and in some cases, long pop times where people can’t complete their weekly. On top of that, BioWare will reset that unfinished weekly each Tuesday and you have to start from scratch.

 

The situation is a recipe for disaster and it seems BioWare are refusing to answer 2 questions that have been asked by multiple posters have in the change threads.

1. Will they be removing the win requirement or reducing the number to 5

2. Will they be resetting the pvp weekly as well or is it only for heroics, operations and flash points.

 

I don’t understand why BioWare cant answer these very simple questions.

Edited November 12, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[robwettengel]

 

I don’t understand why BioWare cant answer these very simple questions.

 

Seems that--whoever the Producer is--the SWTOR team has always liked to keep so many things close to the vest and not reveal things to the player base at large. These are things that we need to know. We aren't asking questions like: how many people are on the SWTOR team now? How has that number fluctuated over the past decade? What is the current budget for the game? Honestly, we have no need to know the answers to these questions.

 

However, questions about game mechanics should be revealed to us so we can provide feedback. If the weeklies for PVP are going to reset weekly, I agree that losses should count in the weekly tally or the number should be reduced from 10 to 5. This is the only way to balance between those with lots of available playtime and those who don't have as much time. This will also balance things between the whiny PVPers who SIMPLY MUST WIN ALL THE TIME and everyone else who is just doing matches to tick off a box, and for those who are active, avid PVPers who want to tick off the box.

[TrixxieTriss]

Seems that--whoever the Producer is--the SWTOR team has always liked to keep so many things close to the vest and not reveal things to the player base at large. These are things that we need to know. We aren't asking questions like: how many people are on the SWTOR team now? How has that number fluctuated over the past decade? What is the current budget for the game? Honestly, we have no need to know the answers to these questions.

 

However, questions about game mechanics should be revealed to us so we can provide feedback. If the weeklies for PVP are going to reset weekly, I agree that losses should count in the weekly tally or the number should be reduced from 10 to 5. This is the only way to balance between those with lots of available playtime and those who don't have as much time. This will also balance things between the whiny PVPers who SIMPLY MUST WIN ALL THE TIME and everyone else who is just doing matches to tick off a box, and for those who are active, avid PVPers who want to tick off the box.

 

I’d actually prefer if the went back to the old points system where you need X amount of points to finish the weekly and wins give more points than losses, but losses still give points.

 

My self and others have given plenty of feed back and had in-depth forum discussions on this idea and how to make it work so people still try to win.

Sadly, BioWare have been disengaged with the pvp forums and the weekly win requirement since they brought it in. So I can’t see them changing now.

Edited November 12, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Floplag]

he gives up immediately if he doesn't get his way at a node. then sits in a corner and runs his mouth. I have him on ignore, but you still see him drop left. and if the other team caps, he just sits in a corner the rest of the match, and I see players arguing with him in chat.

 

I would say that makes him exactly like moophy. of course...once again, BW created this **** show with the deserter debuff. normally a player would just leave when they give up. now dead dude and some <sinister syndicate>(?) person just sit there mocking everyone.

 

I've noticed a lot of people straightup leaving during the lopsided DM matches recently. this is very recent...like the past week or two. lot of backfill that I haven't seen since 5.x. I think now that GS is no longer a thing, the only reason for casual/pve-ish players to stay in the match is for the win (GS awarded participation credit). and it's just not worth their time or mental energy to stick around w/o progressing their quest objectives. iunno. just speculation.

 

 

Granted, and im not defending his antics... only saying that at least a cursory effort is made. Dont read anything into it beyond that please

[Sounders_Fan]

Granted, and im not defending his antics... only saying that at least a cursory effort is made. Dont read anything into it beyond that please

 

never thought I would see someone would use DoW as a positive example. not sure what to think about that

[Nickodemous]

You can cry in one hand and crap in the other! You see, cross server along with the crappy solo ranked system changed the dynamics of pvp! The reason u see the garbage you do now in regs is a reflection of the garbage that is now solo ranked! "Just dropped mic"