Fix ALL Flashpoints for 7.0

[Revenaught]

So stealthing through a flashpoint to have your team kill themselves once at a checkpoint is not an exploit?

both stealth abilities and checkpoints are deliberate game functions. So no not an exploit.

 

Jumping on ledges that were not supposed to be jumped on (half the time players just get stuck on them) is not an exploit?

Very simply put. If a ledge is capable of being jumped to no matter how difficult then no not an exploit. If players get stuck then that needs to be fixed.

 

Glitching behind invisible walls to get behind the map is not an exploit?

On this I agree with you.using established terrain to progress past mobs is one thing. Deliberately glitching outside the established terrain is an exploit I support the fixing of.

 

Please explain how any of these are intended mechanics that don't give an unfair advantage towards gearing and conquest progression over how they are supposed to be run...

 

I answer this and your following comment with exactly that point. Playing the game with its systems and terrain is not an exploit. it may not always be how the devs initially planned on players getting through it but they are human and can’t predict everything ahead of time. And yes anything that does work within those systems and is left intact for years is tacitly approved and players should be allowed to continue doing so. Pathing around mob agro ranges or jumping to accessible ledges or stealthing past mobs are all perfectly legit uses of planned game functions.

 

As I said earlier though glitching through the map walls to escape the map itself is not an intended game function and really should be fixed.

 

*edit - One of the main issue here, is something you are an extremely good example of: These exploits become the meta if not fixed and players start to think they are entitled to keep using the exploits - that they are part of the game.

 

To sum up intended game features aren’t exploits but stepping outside the map through a glitch is and should indeed be fixed.

[Phaedruss]

To sum up intended game features aren’t exploits but stepping outside the map through a glitch is and should indeed be fixed.

I'll end my debate on this saying, I see what you're saying. And can see where you are coming from. But still disagree. I don't think Flashpoints should be able to be cheesed to this extent and that the methods to do so are on the edge of exploity to just straight up exploity.

I'll take a step back though and let others get their opinions out. Main reason for the thread was to get a good debate going and get people thinking, and I think we both defended our sides with great points that will get brains thinking on it. I think we accomplished that

 

*edit - I do want to leave this though for food for thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploit

Especially in the controversy and common types sections. Just because something is working as designed, doesn't mean it it's intended or not an exploit (checkpoint rez being an example.)

Edited November 7, 2021 by Phaedruss

[JediQuaker]

An interesting aspect of this is the Flashpoints that have mechanics specifically designed to bypass some enemies. In particular, I'm thinking of the things like elevators, doors, etc, that are only usable by characters with Scavenging, or Archeology, etc.

Are these "exploits"? Obviously not. Are they intended to allow teams to skip parts? Obviously yes.

 

So merely skipping mobs can't really be considered an exploit, or even contrary to the design of the flashpoints.

 

Yes, there are some things - stealth/stuck/respawning, exiting the map, for example - that could be considered exploits, but there is nothing 'exploitive' about skipping mobs.

 

Someone asked "why have the mobs if you can skip them?", but they failed to note that you can kill them if you (and your group) wants to for the XP or grins**.

 

The bottom line still comes down to - if it bothers you, don't do GF.

 

** A 'full clear' where you kill everything and do all the bonuses can be a lot of fun, but I wouldn't want to do a full clear every freakin' time I do a GF FP.🙄

Edited November 8, 2021 by JediQuaker

[ralphieceaser]

I dont think it is worth fixing it just for that purpose, yeah its annoying and quite immersion breaking to just skip 80% of the mobs when possible but fixing that would require a lot of time and resources, and at the end of the day FPs are not very hard.

 

Now I would like them to fix it as well as include stealth detecting enemies if they ever decide to create somekind of FP+ where enemies infinitely scale based on the level of the dungeon.

Though even then enemies and places would need to be tuned so people dont just mass pull everything behind a corner and aoe down mindlessly with no risk

[Loc_n_lol]

An easy "fix" would be to make bonus bosses relevant again, since you have to kill a minimum amount of enemies to unlock the bonus boss. People used to actually seek them out.

For achievements, but also for the bonus materials and loot chance (including rare speeders), as well as because they were conquest objectives.

Right now loot is irrelevant, and they're no longer conquest objectives, and the conquest target is too easy to reach anyway.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Loc_n_lol

[jedimasterjac]

Did you play any other MMO? Last 2 I played did not require you to clear whole dungeons, some mobs groups and/or extra bosses could be skipped if you wanted to, so please explain it to me how are those 'exploits'.

 

The entirety of M+ in WoW is built around smartly and efficiently pulling mob groups, skipping as much as possible while still hitting the 100% counter.

 

ESO heavily involves mob skips whenever possible.

 

The only MMO I can think of with PvE group content that doesn't allow/encourage such mob skipping is FFXIV, and that's because it's literally impossible thanks to every dungeon being a straight, linear hallway.

[phalczen]

I disagree with some of your assumptions. You assume that when a flashpoint is designed it is intended that the flashpoint be cleared. But that is often not your mission objective from your mission giver. Take Directive 7 as an example. In D7 you are literally in a race against time while Mentor builds up enough energy from the moon’s core to broadcast its liberation signal to the galaxy. Before you meet the first boss Mentor announces that “statistically our victory is inevitable.” The planetoid is in fact fairly large and there are droids all over especially in the outdoor sections. There is simply no reason for your small strike team, already in a hurry because of the STORY, to cleanse the planet. Same goes for say, Taral V which is a covert infiltration until Kilran realizes what’s going on before the final boss.

 

I think many of the flashpoints are designed for a sense of immersion, not because there is a legitimate expectation of complete clearance. I know it’s not a flashpoint, but consider the Oasis City Infiltration task in the Scum and Villainy operation. Again a time crunch and covert operation so aggroing everything is not only a waste of time in terms of rewards, but actually harms your mission objective.

 

I don’t mind if there are incentives, or bonus missions, that require you to clear many more mobs than you could theoretically bypass. But I wouldn’t go around assuming that full clearance is an underlying intent of all flashpoints, and if you don’t clear everything, you are “doing it wrong” or “exploiting.”

[Phaedruss]

Nowhere on this thread have I said anything about forcing players to full clear flashpoints. This is about exploits, such as checkpoint ressing, or using parts of the terrain that were not meant to be accessed, etc... all of which are the type of things blizzard fixes as soon as they are found...

Mythic + is one of my favorite parts of retail wow, none of these exploits would be allowed and would be patched up fast.

You wanna know why people run Flashpoints like spammer station and will continue to, even after 7.0? Because they can be completed in 1/3 the time of flashpoints that you can't cheeze for the SAME REWARD. Plus mythic + is only for new dungeons, there is a reason the meta in wow isn't spamming deadmines or the likes. A mythic + version of the more recent flashpoints could be fun.

Say what you will, but most flashpoints need patched up and tuned, or players will continue to abuse the starting flashpoints (athiss, hammer station, etc...) and ignore the rest of the content.

I've already explained how these issues contribute to other issues in the game. Keeping broken flashpoints in the game is not a good thing.

It's similar to arguing that stealth ressing is an intended mechanic and takes 'skill' so should be left in the game - even when that's not the case.

I don't have high hopes for these being fixed though, this entire game is just run the same old content over and over again. Obviously this is fun...

Edited November 15, 2021 by Phaedruss

[JediQuaker]

It gets so old skipping 75% + of all the flashpoints in this game and then getting treated poorly by groups for not being good at platforming etc...

It is a HORRIBLE group experience. This could be easily fixed by increasing the aggro range of most mobs and putting in some invisible walls in spots. There is no reason players should be berated for not skipping or not knowing how to skip flashpoints. This especially is a horrible experience for newer players and creates a very toxic environment. This is not how flashpoints were intended to be done and it hurts the overall experience just so people can effectively farm things faster than they were ever intended to be run.

Hmm, that reads as a complaint against skipping mobs. Nowhere in this original post do you mention stealth rez or going 'off map'.

It seems as though you changed your tune after it was pointed out that skipping mobs is built into some Flashpoints. 🤔

😇

[Phaedruss]

Hmm, that reads as a complaint against skipping mobs. Nowhere in this original post do you mention stealth rez or going 'off map'.

It seems as though you changed your tune after it was pointed out that skipping mobs is built into some Flashpoints. 🤔

😇

 

Trust me quaker, your bad points of 'what is using the elevator an exploit?' Didn't change my tune. You had no effect on my my opinion.

 

My answer got more thought out as I debated with other people that made good points...

Edited November 15, 2021 by Phaedruss

[phalczen]

I mean, I guess I wouldn't object if the bug where the trash in Red Reaper after the red/blue droid continued to follow you into the elevator instead of evading. Sure, is that what you mean? I have done hundreds of flashpoints and I don't know of "off map areas" or places where there should be invisible walls. Are you talking about tents like in D7? Slanted walls of fortress entrances like in Battle of Ilum? Creatively getting around and using stealth to get the force field codes in Battle of Rishi? Using knockbacks to get rid of trash off bridges in multiple flashpoints?

 

I'm always in support of fixing bugs and exploits, as long as you can concede "skipping trash" stretches a very wide range from simply mobs way outside the most common path, to exploits, with the vast majority of instances being completely legitimate.

[eabevella]

Why are you so mad that people find way to go through flashpoints with shorter time?

Players using their skill to pass through stuffs faster aren't exploits. The word "exploit" means the act of taking advantage of a design flaw for malicious purpose. Stealth-ing and hugging wall to skip are simply playing it efficient.

 

Form your own group if you don't want to skip nothing.

And before you pull "new players" in this, all they have to do is to say something like "I'm new" up front, like I did when I was new to FP, and literally just follow. It's not that difficult, really.

 

I'd rather they fix the actual bugs and level scale the flashpoints to lv80 in 7.0

[spongeymike]

One reason as a newlish play I skip all flashpoint. currently got a lvl 50lish bounty hunter and I am really torn if I should try to do them or not. Since I haven't set foot in any flashpoint I have no idea where or how to do them or what route to take.

 

One thing I think the dev can do is make the flashpoint more linear like you have to go only this route and mobs and boss are always in your way so no way to avoid them. Like some other games where yous imply can not skip any boss or the mobs they have.

 

And to everyone who saids just tell people you are new. Yea fat chance you only going to either get kick coz people in the group only wants experience players to just go go go go or you get everyone your neck for not understanding boss fight or where to do go or jump to skip the mobs and you get blame at for slowing the group down for a whopping 5mins during the whole run or even get told to you should watch video on how to do the run before even trying.

 

This game isn't like FFXIV where players tend to be nicer this game players don't care about others.

Edited November 22, 2021 by spongeymike

[JakRoanin]

And before you pull "new players" in this, all they have to do is to say something like "I'm new" up front, like I did when I was new to FP, and literally just follow. It's not that difficult, really.

 

I did that when the Mandalorian FP popped and I got cursed out for not being able to follow the stealther because of lag issues.

[robwettengel]

I would greatly appreciate the placement of invisible walls around the areas where platforming us utlized---Athiss, Cademimu, for examples. I am not efficient at performing platforming moves in this game. Takes coordination and reaction times my brain can't perform.

 

Then all this skipping is unfair to new players, as others have stated, and the belly-aching and grumbling (and possible kicking) over can be exasperating.

[JediQuaker]

I would greatly appreciate the placement of invisible walls around the areas where platforming us utlized---Athiss, Cademimu, for examples. I am not efficient at performing platforming moves in this game. Takes coordination and reaction times my brain can't perform.

 

Then all this skipping is unfair to new players, as others have stated, and the belly-aching and grumbling (and possible kicking) over can be exasperating.

You don't seem to realize that the flashpoints are somewhat specifically designed to allow for skipping. Keep in mind that these are not "real" environments where the flashpoint just happens to take place. The various objects and features in an area have been placed there by a designer, often times just to facilitate skipping.

And to again mention that many FPs have built in elevators, doors, etc, which are designed to facilitate skipping of some areas and/or mobs. These doors and elevators are designed to be used by characters with Scavenging or Archeology, and obviously can't be considered an "exploit".

Plus, of course, a small amount of 'platforming' is also built into the game, especially when it comes to Datacrons.

Edited November 23, 2021 by JediQuaker

[Phaedruss]

You don't seem to realize that the flashpoints are somewhat specifically designed to allow for skipping. Keep in mind that these are not "real" environments where the flashpoint just happens to take place. The various objects and features in an area have been placed there by a designer, often times just to facilitate skipping.

And to again mention that many FPs have built in elevators, doors, etc, which are designed to facilitate skipping of some areas and/or mobs. These doors and elevators are designed to be used by characters with Scavenging or Archeology, and obviously can't be considered an "exploit".

Plus, of course, a small amount of 'platforming' is also built into the game, especially when it comes to Datacrons.

 

You keep saying this, but I'm sure having a Stealth to a checkpoint and then having the group kill themselves to res at the checkpoint is totally baked in... what a bunch of crap.

 

*edit - I have yet to meet a newer player that doesn't see it this way. Someone agrees and you're instantly 'look this is all baked in, get good or don't do flashpoints' - this exemplifies the problem. Toxic elitist endgame players exploiting flashpoints and expecting everyone to exploit with them because BW can't be bothered to to fix their game.

 

*edit - even better, get good - if you're not taking advantage of and abusing the exploits in flashpoints to skip 75% or more of the flashpoint then you aren't playing correctly. It's all baked in! Get out of group finder chumps!

The things you talk about like elevators, drills, etc... are literally baked in and part of the f#&@ing flashpoints. This is obviously not what is being talked about. So stop bringing them up.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Phaedruss

[Phaedruss]

I did that when the Mandalorian FP popped and I got cursed out for not being able to follow the stealther because of lag issues.

 

I have NUMEROUS times seen new players harassed for not knowing how or not wanting to skip all of a flashpoint. When my vote made it so they couldn't be kicked the group just leaves. I don't see how anyone can defend a system that encourages this type of behavior towards new players - in the flashpoints that are literally the introduction to flashpoints for new players... all because these flashpoints are very old and abused, they also give the exact same rewards as the newer flashpoints that have less exploits. So why spend 20 to 30min in better content when it only takes 10min to run hammer station? It comes down to some very bad level design for some of the vanilla (and even some of the newer ones) flashpoints that have never had the holes patched up in them. Just because the holes are there doesn't imply that any of them are intended - they are broken.

[Voroschuk]

If players feel like they are not having fun, spend more time than they need, and are not getting meaningful rewards for it, they will just find a way to skip it, or they will "skip" the whole FP and play another one. If people skip 75% of the FP that only means that only 25% of that FP matters. Nothing is broken there, more like, umm... not very well designed? Or the skips were intended and they are just another, alternative way to finish it? I think skips are intended, they would be fixed a long time ago otherwise. But I'm no game designer so what do I know.

The only big problem I see with FP is the HS/RR spammers, but that will be fixed in 7.0 by rotating the available FPs in GF.

 

I'm sure having a Stealth to a checkpoint and then having the group kill themselves to res at the checkpoint is totally baked in... what a bunch of crap.

Better than dealing with all those adds on a way to the first Copero boss lol

Edited November 24, 2021 by Voroschuk

[Opiklo]

whats the point of stealth classes, when you arent able to skip stuff with their help?

[JediQuaker]

You keep saying this, but I'm sure having a Stealth to a checkpoint and then having the group kill themselves to res at the checkpoint is totally baked in... what a bunch of crap.

It would be helpful if you'd stick to one complaint or the other. I was not aware that every time you mention 'skipping mobs' you are actually talking about stealth'n'rez.

[robwettengel]

You don't seem to realize that the flashpoints are somewhat specifically designed to allow for skipping. Keep in mind that these are not "real" environments where the flashpoint just happens to take place. The various objects and features in an area have been placed there by a designer, often times just to facilitate skipping.

And to again mention that many FPs have built in elevators, doors, etc, which are designed to facilitate skipping of some areas and/or mobs. These doors and elevators are designed to be used by characters with Scavenging or Archeology, and obviously can't be considered an "exploit".

Plus, of course, a small amount of 'platforming' is also built into the game, especially when it comes to Datacrons.

 

I agree that the use of elevators and other areas (the force-fields in RR) are not exploits; rather, they are features. Their purpose may not have even been to encourage skipping of content, but to encourage gathering skill diversity in the game. I'm not sure why you brought up this irrelevancy when I specifically mentioned the jumping stuff.

I have only gotten a few datacrons in this game that I was easily able to walk to and click on. I'm not interested in having to learn to be a digital gymnist. If I am in an FP that involves this jumping stuff, and I fail a jump and the rest of the group plows on ahead--I just quit.

[Toraak]

I agree that the use of elevators and other areas (the force-fields in RR) are not exploits; rather, they are features. Their purpose may not have even been to encourage skipping of content, but to encourage gathering skill diversity in the game. I'm not sure why you brought up this irrelevancy when I specifically mentioned the jumping stuff.

I have only gotten a few datacrons in this game that I was easily able to walk to and click on. I'm not interested in having to learn to be a digital gymnist. If I am in an FP that involves this jumping stuff, and I fail a jump and the rest of the group plows on ahead--I just quit.

 

Just because HS, and RR won't be in GF, I'm sure we'll see people consistently looking for groups on fleet for both. You can still go to the FP terminals and do both as much as you want without bothering with GF.

[Phaedruss]

It would be helpful if you'd stick to one complaint or the other. I was not aware that every time you mention 'skipping mobs' you are actually talking about stealth'n'rez.

 

I'm talking about exploits in general and have been. Multiple times I've listed the exploits.

[Opiklo]

I'm talking about exploits in general and have been. Multiple times I've listed the exploits.

 

maybe... just maybe... you are not the one who defines what is considered an exploit.

thats a problem of the devs. not yours.

 

And you cant be serious if you really want to fight through copero city.

the fp ist long enough..

how long should a fp take? 1 hour.

 

you know there are people out there who have a life.