Again Hurting Innocent Players

[MadCuzBad]

you are 100000$ WRONG, those were made almost in time to avoid people entering to a guild just to gain the 1st spot to get the planet and then leave the guild.

 

I google translated and came up empty. What language is this?

[Phazonfreak]

We disagree with you completely but thanks for disagreeing with us.

 

I google translated and came up empty. What language is this?

 

So the one calling out snarky comments from others when they stand against his position is using his own snarky comments to make his points? You know, It would really help your position if you tried to practice what you preach.

 

You have been given several examples now about the reasons for the one week grace period for new members. It didn't come out of nowhere and BioWare didn't overshoot with its implementation. It was an unfortunate necessity due to several exploits that were used by certain guilds.

 

If you choose to simply ignore those points because they don't fit your prescribed view of how Conquest should work, then nothing is gained by this thread.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[MadCuzBad]

So the one calling out snarky comments from others when they stand against his position is using his own snarky comments to make his points? You know, It would really help your position if you tried to practice what you preach.

 

You have been given several examples now about the reasons for the one week grace period for new members. It didn't come out of nowhere and BioWare didn't overshoot with its implementation. It was an unfortunate necessity due to several exploits that were used by certain guilds.

 

If you choose to simply ignore those points because they don't fit your prescribed view of how Conquest should work, then nothing is gained by this thread.

 

It would be beneficial for you to read before you post. Both examples were completely false and inaccurate posted by people who responded who do not know how the system works. Another issue on the forums that plagues discussions just like your response.

 

One example given was already corrected but you did not read. The example given was when people leave or get kicked from a guild they jump into "sister guilds" or other guilds and dump all the conquest points. Absolutely false but thankfully corrected.

 

The second one was another false premise that people jump into guilds, get the #1 spot, win the week and then quit. Once again someone posting with no knowledge of how conquest works. That was something that has not been in conquest in years. If you hop into a guild unless you were in that guild for the previous week wont get that accomplishment. Been like that for years now.

 

So in closing, give me 1 reason why the 3 changes I outlined in my OP has any effect on large guilds and should remain in effect. Just one reason would work for me. So far the only negative effect is on small or new guilds and guild members.

 

If your going to defend bioware you need a reason. So far all the bioware defenders are batting 0. Seems that the only people that can not seem to see what's going on here are the people who do not understand how conquest works.

[Nevaeh-Heaven]

In part I agree, innocent players are often affected by the actions of others. However this change was made for a reason, and personally for the matter of max 7 days or as little as one day inconvenience, you really need to get some sort of perceptive on this issue. Its not that bad overall.

[Phazonfreak]

It would be beneficial for you to read before you post. Both examples were completely false and inaccurate posted by people who responded who do not know how the system works. Another issue on the forums that plagues discussions just like your response.

 

Again, you should practice what you preach. The second example given by Khaleijo, which you casually disagreed with, is the fundamental reason for the change and has nothing to do with the fact that leavers cannot take their points with them to another guild even before the change.

 

It is all about a big loophole regarding the 1000 member cap of the mega guilds. There was a way to circumvent the limitation that you can only do the high-value Conquest objectives once a day or even once a week per legacy. Players were able to farm those objectives with characters that are already in the guild, then they would dump those characters in a sister guild and invite characters with a different legacy from the sister guild in order to farm those high-value Conquest objectives again. Those guilds were basically able to shuffle their members around in order to earn more and faster Conquest points compared to any other guild that did not use this exploit.

 

With the one week grace period in place this is not possible anymore.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[BRKMSN]

The bottom line is that people in large guilds came to the forums and complained that other large guilds were doing certain things to gain an advantage. They argued the ability to practice those types of things was not in the spirit of the design of conquest. The devs agreed and made the change. They did not do this simply because the wanted to make a change. It was because players were here complaining. Edited August 6, 2021 by BRKMSN

[CrazyTough]

The poster is right they should change it back to the way it was allowing new members to a guild to start participating in conquest upon being in that guild right away.

 

Most of the comments in this thread are wrong and do not understand how the current conquest system works. The implementation of once a player leaves a guild that the points made towards that guild will be removed is a perfect fix. I agree with it completely. But what the poster here is complaining about is surely valid. Not allowing a player to participate towards conquest upon joining a new guild is not only un necessary but it is hinderance to small guild in particular. Anyone who does not understand this simply does not know how conquest works or understand what the exploits were as seen in many replies in this thread.

[Phazonfreak]

The poster is right they should change it back to the way it was allowing new members to a guild to start participating in conquest upon being in that guild right away.

 

Most of the comments in this thread are wrong and do not understand how the current conquest system works. The implementation of once a player leaves a guild that the points made towards that guild will be removed is a perfect fix. I agree with it completely. But what the poster here is complaining about is surely valid. Not allowing a player to participate towards conquest upon joining a new guild is not only un necessary but it is hinderance to small guild in particular. Anyone who does not understand this simply does not know how conquest works or understand what the exploits were as seen in many replies in this thread.

 

Allow me to quote myself regarding the op's challenge to give even one example of how the one week grace period was able to close an exploit for the big guilds:

 

It is all about a big loophole regarding the 1000 member cap of the mega guilds. There was a way to circumvent the limitation that you can only do the high-value Conquest objectives once a day or even once a week per legacy. Players were able to farm those objectives with characters that are already in the guild, then they would dump those characters in a sister guild and invite characters with a different legacy from the sister guild in order to farm those high-value Conquest objectives again. Those guilds were basically able to shuffle their members around in order to earn more and faster Conquest points compared to any other guild that did not use this exploit.

 

With the one week grace period in place this is not possible anymore.

 

I find it quite telling that the op has not replied to my comment yet.

 

At the risk of repeating myself: Yes, those changes made Conquest a little bit more inconvenient in the early stages and especially for newer guilds with less members. But the point stands that the change was warranted and asked for by players, not just because BioWare suddenly decided to change something without reason.

 

I think it would be much more productive to try thinking about other ways to change Conquest in order to make it as fair as possible for everyone without exploits instead of simply denying the most basic facts and calling for a reversal of the changes. One suggestion has been made in this thread in the shape of taking into account membership numbers when calculating guild leaderboards.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[CheesyEZ]

These 3 changes were implemented to try making conquest more competitive. As you can tell by the leaderboards that they had no effect. The dominating conquest guilds are dominating stronger than they ever have.

 

the changes were not made to shake up the leader boards. they were made to prevent guilds from doing shady things, which they have largely succeeded in preventing. that doesn't stop really big guilds who spam stupidly easy activities with 1,000 alts from "winning" conquest "events."

 

honestly, I feel about conquest the way flattax feels about EA monetization of the game. conquest is a ridiculous hampster wheel used to pull the wool over ppl's eyes about how little new content is added to this game.

Edited August 8, 2021 by CheesyEZ

[BRKMSN]

The implementation of once a player leaves a guild that the points made towards that guild will be removed is a perfect fix.

So ... if a player leaves on his own, he could effectively sabotage a guild. You don't see how this might be exploited?

 

If a guild removes a player, that player shouldn't get credit for the guild reward if he met the qualification before removal?

 

I'd hardly call that a "perfect fix."

[Tsillah]

So ... if a player leaves on his own, he could effectively sabotage a guild. You don't see how this might be exploited?

 

If a guild removes a player, that player shouldn't get credit for the guild reward if he met the qualification before removal?

 

I'd hardly call that a "perfect fix."

 

I believe that's wrong.

 

When a player gets kicked from a guild he takes his points with him.

When a player leaves a guild, the points stay with the guild.

[ceryxp]

I believe that's wrong.

 

When a player gets kicked from a guild he takes his points with him.

When a player leaves a guild, the points stay with the guild.

 

You are correct, but we should stop using the phrasing "takes their points with them." The player does not take their points with them. The player's personal Conquest points are not impacted, but any points earned for the guild are erased from existence upon being kicked.

 

 

Although I think that the probation period was the wrong way to address the issues that we were seeing it now exists and it is doubtful that it will be removed. The one change I would like to see made to the probation period is for it to not apply to characters of the same legacy being added to a guild. If you already have a character in the guild then adding another should not incur a probation period. Making that change would largely, but certainly not totally, alleviate the impact of the probation period on small guilds, new guilds, and guilds that are legitimately growing and not simply sucking up all available unguilded players like Mega Maid set to suck.

[BRKMSN]

I believe that's wrong.

 

When a player gets kicked from a guild he takes his points with him.

When a player leaves a guild, the points stay with the guild.

 

I was referring to the proposed "fix" that I quoted. I was pointing out that it wouldn't be so perfect as a player could now sabotage a guild.

[Tsillah]

I was referring to the proposed "fix" that I quoted. I was pointing out that it wouldn't be so perfect as a player could now sabotage a guild.

ah right. My bad.

[Phazonfreak]

Although I think that the probation period was the wrong way to address the issues that we were seeing it now exists and it is doubtful that it will be removed. The one change I would like to see made to the probation period is for it to not apply to characters of the same legacy being added to a guild. If you already have a character in the guild then adding another should not incur a probation period. Making that change would largely, but certainly not totally, alleviate the impact of the probation period on small guilds, new guilds, and guilds that are legitimately growing and not simply sucking up all available unguilded players like Mega Maid set to suck.

 

I agree, this would be a good change to alleviate the problem for smaller guilds without reversing the changes and having the large guilds do their exploiting again.

[DWho]

I believe that's wrong.

 

When a player gets kicked from a guild he takes his points with him.

When a player leaves a guild, the points stay with the guild.

 

Correct and this would be the core of the exploit that would be available if new "recruits" were allowed to contribute right away. The guild would benefit from all the players that "voluntarily" left the guild (leaving their points behind) plus the guild could mass invite a bunch of low level players that are generating CQ points at a fast rate due to the repeatables like "Story Time" and the various "Rampages".

 

A Guild with 1000 members has 100 members that have "maxed" the CQ points for the week so those players leave the guild "leaving their points behind". The Guild then recruits 100 low level characters to take advantage of their fast CQ point gain (effectively now a guild of 1100 members). Right after reset, those 100 "new" players get kicked and the members that left "voluntarily" are invited back. The process is then repeated. This allows the exploit of circumventing the guild member cap and allows guilds to take advantage of new/low level players for their conquest points. The kicked players still get the rewards from the week, but it sets up a revolving door of joining and leaving guilds that is unhealthy for player harmony. This later issue applies to guilds of all sizes not just the big CQ ones (replace gaining CQ points at an increased rate with gaining guild experience at an increased rate and you have a small guild exploit of the system)

Edited August 8, 2021 by DWho

[MadCuzBad]

Correct and this would be the core of the exploit that would be available if new "recruits" were allowed to contribute right away. The guild would benefit from all the players that "voluntarily" left the guild (leaving their points behind) plus the guild could mass invite a bunch of low level players that are generating CQ points at a fast rate due to the repeatables like "Story Time" and the various "Rampages".

 

A Guild with 1000 members has 100 members that have "maxed" the CQ points for the week so those players leave the guild "leaving their points behind". The Guild then recruits 100 low level characters to take advantage of their fast CQ point gain (effectively now a guild of 1100 members). Right after reset, those 100 "new" players get kicked and the members that left "voluntarily" are invited back. The process is then repeated. This allows the exploit of circumventing the guild member cap and allows guilds to take advantage of new/low level players for their conquest points. The kicked players still get the rewards from the week, but it sets up a revolving door of joining and leaving guilds that is unhealthy for player harmony. This later issue applies to guilds of all sizes not just the big CQ ones (replace gaining CQ points at an increased rate with gaining guild experience at an increased rate and you have a small guild exploit of the system)

 

This is total nonsense. I have no clue who or what guild you are referring to but if that is happening its just people wasting a lot of time and energy for absolutely nothing.

 

Let me clear the air. I have been in The Sanctuary, The Galactic Order, and The Dark Sanctuary for years and have never seen this one time ever. I know all the so called "exploits" and this entire response is hog wash.

 

I really wish people would stop trying to defend bioware not allowing new guild members to a guild to participate in the current weeks conquest legit when it is NOT. It has absolutely no effect on large guilds at all period. End of story. Stop making BS up that is un true just to for some weird reason justify the change.

 

90% of the weeks are only 3 guilds winning, 1 small, 1 medium, and 1 large. I am in the guilds who dominate every single week for years. So any "exploiting" will only effect those 3 guilds 90% of the time and the 3 changes I outlined in my OP have ZERO ZERO ZERO effect on the top guilds. It only effect small guilds or non competitive guilds.

 

I have seen no reason in this entire thread explaining why it effected the top guilds or highly competitive guilds because all the ones who claimed a reason for it are NOT TRUE. People are responding saying things that are incorrect and just not true. This latest post is another example of this. I have never seen this happening in over 2 years of weekly conquest in the most winning conquest guilds.

 

It is as easy as saying the sky is blue the fact that new guild members should be able to work towards conquest upon receiving an invite at any point and time. This change is extraordinary and pretentious. Anyone who does not understand that does not know what goes on within the top conquest guild like me and many others do otherwise you would simply understand this.

[DWho]

This is total nonsense. I have no clue who or what guild you are referring to but if that is happening its just people wasting a lot of time and energy for absolutely nothing.

 

Let me clear the air. I have been in The Sanctuary, The Galactic Order, and The Dark Sanctuary for years and have never seen this one time ever. I know all the so called "exploits" and this entire response is hog wash.

 

I really wish people would stop trying to defend bioware not allowing new guild members to a guild to participate in the current weeks conquest legit when it is NOT. It has absolutely no effect on large guilds at all period. End of story. Stop making BS up that is un true just to for some weird reason justify the change.

 

90% of the weeks are only 3 guilds winning, 1 small, 1 medium, and 1 large. I am in the guilds who dominate every single week for years. So any "exploiting" will only effect those 3 guilds 90% of the time and the 3 changes I outlined in my OP have ZERO ZERO ZERO effect on the top guilds. It only effect small guilds or non competitive guilds.

 

I have seen no reason in this entire thread explaining why it effected the top guilds or highly competitive guilds because all the ones who claimed a reason for it are NOT TRUE. People are responding saying things that are incorrect and just not true. This latest post is another example of this. I have never seen this happening in over 2 years of weekly conquest in the most winning conquest guilds.

 

It is as easy as saying the sky is blue the fact that new guild members should be able to work towards conquest upon receiving an invite at any point and time. This change is extraordinary and pretentious. Anyone who does not understand that does not know what goes on within the top conquest guild like me and many others do otherwise you would simply understand this.

 

Your post is total nonsense. Go back and look at the other posts about this including the one from the Devs where they say why they implemented it. Then you can come back and explain why you think they are wrong. If you actually read those posts, you will find that the primary reason for the changes was abuse of new players by guilds (regardless of size).

 

As far as guilds using this exploit, everyone knows at least one of them but the ban on naming and shaming on the forums keeps their name off the charts (though members of that guild regularly broke that rule on the forums). And there was far more than one doing it. They weren't the biggest guilds but they were the ones trying to claim a top spot.

 

Edit: Here is the quote from the Dev post on why the changes were made so you don't have to look it up.

 

"I also want to come back to the points I made in my original Guilds and Conquest post.

 

Guilds are a large factor in not only our game, but in any game with a social backdrop to it. We took into consideration the negative impact the behavior we were seeing had on new players whether they be new to the game or new to Guilds. Changes were made to ensure that players were joining the right Guild for the right reasons including the departure from said Guild."

Edited August 9, 2021 by DWho

[MadCuzBad]

Your post is total nonsense. Go back and look at the other posts about this including the one from the Devs where they say why they implemented it. Then you can come back and explain why you think they are wrong. If you actually read those posts, you will find that the primary reason for the changes was abuse of new players by guilds (regardless of size).

 

As far as guilds using this exploit, everyone knows at least one of them but the ban on naming and shaming on the forums keeps their name off the charts (though members of that guild regularly broke that rule on the forums). And there was far more than one doing it. They weren't the biggest guilds but they were the ones trying to claim a top spot.

 

Edit: Here is the quote from the Dev post on why the changes were made so you don't have to look it up.

 

"I also want to come back to the points I made in my original Guilds and Conquest post.

 

Guilds are a large factor in not only our game, but in any game with a social backdrop to it. We took into consideration the negative impact the behavior we were seeing had on new players whether they be new to the game or new to Guilds. Changes were made to ensure that players were joining the right Guild for the right reasons including the departure from said Guild."

 

And how many times is this going to be repeated over and over again. Everyone knows this. Like I said earlier and I am going to repeat AGAIN all this ends by removing the conquest points a player earns towards that guild when he is gone from the guild. Period and end of story. I know why they are saying they did this. I am saying that what they did was nonessential and disproportionate. Everything is easily fixed in one step. Once player is no longer in said guild all points gained by such player are removed. I'm not going to keep repeating myself anymore. Either read the post or I will simply not respond.

[Phazonfreak]

And how many times is this going to be repeated over and over again. Everyone knows this. Like I said earlier and I am going to repeat AGAIN all this ends by removing the conquest points a player earns towards that guild when he is gone from the guild. Period and end of story. I know why they are saying they did this. I am saying that what they did was nonessential and disproportionate. Everything is easily fixed in one step. Once player is no longer in said guild all points gained by such player are removed. I'm not going to keep repeating myself anymore. Either read the post or I will simply not respond.

 

Ok, now you are actually trying to move the goalposts so you don't have to admit that you are wrong.

 

At the start of the thread you wrote that it would be enough to remove the points from the guild if the member is kicked from the guild. Now you are saying that the points should be removed regardless once the player is no longer in said guild.

 

It has been already pointed out to you in this thread that by removing the points from the guild even if the member left by him/herself, the guilds would be able to sabotage their competition. Those decoy members will leave the guild before Conquest review, therefore removing the points from the guild and lowering their place in the leaderboards.

 

You and I might consider this pretty extreme and not worth it, but as the guilds have demonstrated to us very clearly over the years some of them would do anything to find certain exploits to get ahead in the game. And your proposed solution and reversal of the change would not help the situation.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Phazonfreak

[ceryxp]

You and I might consider this pretty extreme and not worth it, but as the guilds have demonstrated to us very clearly over the years some of them would do anything to find certain exploits to get ahead in the game. And your proposed solution and reversal of the change would not help the situation.

 

I just keep going back to something Chris Schmidt said that I quoted in my suggestion for opening up the Conquest achievements to all guilds.

 

Unfortunately - the better the rewards and incentive at the top, the more wintrading and cheating we typically see

 

https://i.imgur.com/aAKBKfm.png

 

Yes, Chris was talking about PVP at the time, but the message is true here, as well. So long as there are rewards to be had by reaching the top of the leaderboard there are guilds and players who will do whatever it takes to be there. No matter what BW does to try to mitigate such behaviour these players and guilds will find a way. Once one avenue is closed they will seek out another. The only viable solution is to remove those rewards from the top, giving other avenues to acquire them, thus eliminating any need to be at the top.

[Tsillah]

And how many times is this going to be repeated over and over again. Everyone knows this. Like I said earlier and I am going to repeat AGAIN all this ends by removing the conquest points a player earns towards that guild when he is gone from the guild.

That simplistic solution doesn't distinguish between the player being kicked or quitting a guild. The latter being a means for a player to keep a guild hostage, especially smaller guilds.

 

So what would be your solution for that?

[MadCuzBad]

That simplistic solution doesn't distinguish between the player being kicked or quitting a guild. The latter being a means for a player to keep a guild hostage, especially smaller guilds.

 

So what would be your solution for that?

 

Right now on small, medium, and large the first place guilds are between 80 and 90 million points ahead of the second place guild.

 

I think for the sake of argument these responses are going over board just to try and prove bioware was right when they are wrong.

 

Are you suggesting the your worried about players holding those guilds hostage with 80-90 million votes? Do you see what you are saying?

 

Lets just take a deep breathe and humbly admit bioware was wrong on this and not turn this into conspiracy wars.

 

CWTOR Conspiracy Wars The Old Republic. That's what this has evolved into to defend a bioware decision that was a wrong decision.

[Khaleijo]

The first place is not the only goal guilds have with conquest, especially smaller guild might struggle to reach their chosen yield at all. Considering what less than friendly people I met over the years among all the nice players, there are individuals who would try to get special rights, rewards from the guild bank or the like by more or less extorting their own guild(master).

Take a small guild just being able to reach their chosen yield and shortly before the end of the conquest week suddenly one or a few players who contributed a big chunk of the points threaten to leave the guild with their characters if this or that demand isn't met. Should the whole guild suffer for that, all of them missing their guild reward because some *** has a power trip?

Personally I would kick them out for this kind of behaviour anyway, but my guild is a stable and long existing guild, with people who would not bat an eye about one week of conquest rewards, but a new guilds guild-master especially someone of rather young age might not react the same way out of fear of the backlash from the rest of the guild losing their guild reward.

 

There doesn't even need to be actual ill intent behind a guild quit at all, just personal drama and an active player and their best friend(s) leave the guild and take all their characters with them, the points are being detracted and suddenly no one is getting their guild reward any more, although they weren't involved in the drama at all and are totally innocent? Would you consider that fair?

[Tsillah]

Right now on small, medium, and large the first place guilds are between 80 and 90 million points ahead of the second place guild.

 

I think for the sake of argument these responses are going over board just to try and prove bioware was right when they are wrong.

 

Are you suggesting the your worried about players holding those guilds hostage with 80-90 million votes? Do you see what you are saying?

 

Lets just take a deep breathe and humbly admit bioware was wrong on this and not turn this into conspiracy wars.

 

CWTOR Conspiracy Wars The Old Republic. That's what this has evolved into to defend a bioware decision that was a wrong decision.

Ok, you're talking small, medium and large yields in conquest.

I'm talking small/medium sized guilds.

 

Now try this again.