SWG and the CU / NGE apocalypse

[ZionHalcyon]

The whole reason to CU and the NGE came about in the first place, was because of a toxicity in both the development team and the player base.

 

It started with an issue with carbineer where a skill would permanently knock down an opponent in PvP.

 

That really was the only thing that need to be tweaked. You have a small group of players demand the class be destroyed through nerves but the majority just wanted that skill fixed.

 

The developers did indeed destroy the class and listened to that tiny group of players. That started a feeding frenzy where the players realized all they had to do is gang up on a profession they hated and were losing to in PvP and sure enough the developers would nuke every class the player base complained about going above and beyond even the players' recommendations.

 

That completely destroyed any sense of balance in the game.

 

It was a shared destruction

Edited July 17, 2021 by ZionHalcyon

[Kass]

The whole reason to CU and the NGE came about in the first place, was because of a toxicity in both the development team and the player base.

 

It started with an issue with carbonara where a skill would permanently knock down an opponent in PvP.

 

That really was the only thing that need to be tweaked. You have a small group of players demand the class be destroyed through nerves but the majority just wanted that skill fixed.

 

The developers did indeed destroy the class and listened to that tiny group of players. That started a feeding frenzy where the players realized all they had to do is gang up on a profession they hated and were losing to in PvP and sure enough the developers would nuke every class the player base complained about going above and beyond even the players' recommendations.

 

That completely destroyed any sense of balance in the game.

 

It was a shared destruction

 

You couldn't be more off target. The only thing that made sense was that Carbinaire "Knock Down" was being abused... and not connected to anything else.

 

When people who buy gasoline, think they are pumping crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico... then this happens

Edited July 17, 2021 by Kass

[RikuvonDrake]

Star Wars Galaxies had been running along well for 2 years

 

game was dying long before that, did you even play it?

[casirabit]

The problem is you can still play SWG, different versions exists on private servers so SWG didn't actually die. There is just not a subscription to it and on some servers there are quite a few playing, just depends on the version you liked.

 

For me I liked the NGE and there are times you will find me on SWG Legends.

[Kass]

The problem is you can still play SWG, different versions exists on private servers so SWG didn't actually die. There is just not a subscription to it and on some servers there are quite a few playing, just depends on the version you liked.

 

For me I liked the NGE and there are times you will find me on SWG Legends.

 

I read the servers are technically illegal and while tolerated by the IP owner, they could always be shut down without any prior notice via a Cease and Desist Letter; and POOF all that gaming disappears.

 

I for one am glad that sordid saga is all over and a better game: SWTOR took its place.

 

Better to just let it die; let go #KyloRen

Edited July 18, 2021 by Kass

[Nee-Elder]

The BEST version of the game was the original.

 

Agreed, although 1 of the things we used to ponder (and even prod Raph Koster about) during 'SWGEmu' staff meetings sometimes was: "Imagine how amazing SWG would've been if they had kept original combat (pre-cu version) but with all the eventually added content/planets/quests from the CU & NGE eras."

 

 

ShadowLOL ... pft please... But if you had been on a REAL Server, then that check in might have been more impressive. Bria Server was the Biggest, and the Best

 

Shadowfire was my home, but i had an ALT toon on Bria as well.

 

But anyways, since you chose to deflect & ignore 90% of the rest of my post (including the 'spoiler' ) , it's clear you're neither interested in a constructive debate (of opposing opinions) nor interested in any further fun (or facts) with SWG memories.

 

I'll move onto the next thread then, np.

 

p.s. HK-voice... Proclamation: click2Bria-past enjoyment.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[Soljin]

Uh....

 

I'm an SWG Veteran from 2003 on Bria Server (Best Server!) -- And NOTHING scheduled for Patch 7.0 is anything like what happened in that game.

 

I think you need to have a seat, because either you haven't listened and learned exactly what they're doing. or you're still traumatized by defunct SOE (or your just trying to start @#$@).

 

Just take some meds, and remember that John Smedley doesn't work at Bioware EA (here's to hoping of the nightmares that will haunt him during Alzheimer's)

 

I was also on Bria back in 2003. SWG is still my favorite MMO of all time...Miss that game. The CU was not so bad I was riding that out with only a few complaints...As soon as the NGE went Live I bounced for good.

 

SWToR was launched in such a basic state that I don't think they could manage to damage it as much as the NGE did SWG...

 

SWToR was launched as the NGE. This combat change seems more like WoW class trimming to get rid of the ridiculous button keybind counts while trying to add some spec diversity to the field even if it is simplified.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Soljin

[ZionHalcyon]

You couldn't be more off target. The only thing that made sense was that Carbinaire "Knock Down" was being abused... and not connected to anything else.

 

When people who buy gasoline, think they are pumping crude oil in the Gulf of Mexico... then this happens

 

I played SWG for 8 years and was an original beta player. I named one of the ships in JTL. I know what I am talking about. SwGs community In it's time was known as the most toxic in all of the MMOs.

[Soljin]

I played SWG for 8 years and was an original beta player. I named one of the ships in JTL. I know what I am talking about. SwGs community In it's time was known as the most toxic in all of the MMOs.

 

There were some toxic people sure...I don't see SWToR or WoW players being any less toxic TBH. I will admit I left the day NGE went live so I couldn't say after that point but up until then I met some of the greatest groups of People I have played with to date in Pre-NGE SWG.

 

That said there were some serious knuckleheads cruising around SWG for sure...which made it fun when PvP came around...SWG was the perfect Storm of OP...Everyone could build their own version of a a complete monster character which made it feel like Star Wars...Almost no limits to how strong you could become if you scored some good drops and built your character up with some good synergy.

 

That and I miss Creature Handler badly...Always had a CH account.

[Soljin]

I played SWG for 8 years and was an original beta player. I named one of the ships in JTL. I know what I am talking about. SwGs community In it's time was known as the most toxic in all of the MMOs.

 

I recall some mention that SOE wanted the NGE because it was closer to their other MMO/IP which allowed a shared/cross compatible Dev teams.

 

The original SWG was so complex and such a monster to deal with code wise they couldn't manage the thing.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Soljin

[Kass]

I played SWG for 8 years and was an original beta player. I named one of the ships in JTL. I know what I am talking about. SwGs community In it's time was known as the most toxic in all of the MMOs.

 

2003 Launch Player, when you could loot corpses; Yeah and I was the first to speak at the SWG Community Summit in Los Angeles and still have the T-shirt. What's your point?

 

I read your post, and its a joke... Carbiner didn't cause the death of SWG - The Who Dunnit = John Smedley and Julio Torres.

 

Just sit down and take the 'L' bro. _embarrassed :

Edited July 18, 2021 by Kass

[Kass]

I recall some mention that SOE wanted the NGE because it was closer to their other MMO/IP which allowed a shared/cross compatible Dev teams.

 

The original SWG was so complex and such a monster to deal with code wise they couldn't manage the thing.

 

Because their original head honcho quit and took the toolbox with him.

[Soljin]

Because their original head honcho quit and took the toolbox with him.

 

Yup...Read that bit too.

[Kass]

Yup...Read that bit too.

 

At the end of the day the one thing I think everyone can find common ground on about SWG is that it is a test case of WHAT NOT TO DO WITH A LIVE MMORPG that will go down in the annals of history that 'should' be taught at every video game focused Computer Sciences design course in the world.

 

Oh and Master Commando was always bugged/broken from launch and stayed that way until the game shutdown. So utterly infuriating for those that loyally played that class...

 

SWG - Dead and Buried and Good Riddance I say!

[ZionHalcyon]

2003 Launch Player, when you could loot corpses; Yeah and I was the first to speak at the SWG Community Summit in Los Angeles and still have the T-shirt. What's your point?

 

I read your post, and its a joke... Carbiner didn't cause the death of SWG - The Who Dunnit = John Smedley and Julio Torres.

 

Just sit down and take the 'L' bro. _embarrassed :

 

I can keep going. Former Munitions Senator and the brain child behind the weapons revamp that revitalized weaponsmith post nge - worked out when I picked Blixtev's brain and figured out how to get him to go along with a munitions revamp. Then took the idea to the people to get the support to push it through and revitalize a dead profession.

 

I had done more for SWG than you and many others ever had aside from the actual devs and some other senators cut from the same cloth as I and smart about selling improvements to their professions.

 

And even still, SWG by FAR was the most toxic community in MMos of that era, and frankly ever.

 

And those early failures had been studied by MANY looking to launch an MMO - SWG marked the death of player-developer collaboration for MANY games, not just MMOs, because the swg community let the power the developers gave them go to their head. Toxic and power-drunk; that is how I remember the SWG community at large.

 

And good people and rational voices were hazed, heckled, bullied, and abused in a manner no community team would ever let happen in this day and age. The server forums themselves were one big troll fest.

 

And then there were the sales threads, where the top smiths on each server would badmouth and under cut anyone trying to break into a crafting profession in order to maintain monopolies on their goods.

 

Yeah, you can you know what right off - I played the game long enough to know where the bodies were buried in that game, and for anyone who dares try to romanticize it; have I got quite the load of stories to the contrary.

 

 

For everyone else:

 

I am NOT solely blaming the players. They wouldn't have had that power had the devs not bent their knees and given it to them. And it is possible the devs were misled by the beta process - beta was the exact OPPOSITE - ideas flowed back and forth between player and dev, and players didn't revolt when a feature was cut. No entitlement. It was amazing and made us beta players feel like we really did help build that game along with the developers.

 

But Raph Koster effectively nerfed to hell more than half the combat classes right after launch, and it was always one at a time, whichever class the swg community screamed the loudest that they wanted destroyed.

 

And it wasn't long before the players took notice. I remember on MMORPG com and other gaming forums PvP players organizing and floating about what class they would get the devs to Nerf next. And then a class that was just nerfed planning revenge by screaming about the classes of the group that just got nerfed.

 

This went on for as long as Koster was there.

 

It wasn't until he was gone, and frankly Smedley after him, that Blix took over the job and ended the Nerf wars once and for all.

 

But by then, it was too late. The game had already been ravaged by cu and then NGE, neither of which would have been needed had the devs indulged the Nerf wars and enabled rampant toxicity in the swg community...

[Cindron]

Damn someone is full of themselves.

 

I will romanticize what I like based upon my experience, not your lordly pronouncement. SWTOR could have learned a thing or two from SWG. Spaceflight and ship construction alone was amazing. When SWTOR started they constantly asked what people want most to put on their wall of crazy and number one was space flight, you know STAR wars? Finally they just said "ain't happening" and eventually came out with this little pvp option but nothing in the magnitude of JTL.

 

I have many fond memories and even play on an emulator now and again. It is popular enough they have actually expanded the game creating new content, adding Bespin. Yes they truly did everything wrong for awhile and I bailed as did most the community. I did return and played, was there for the final day. Was sad.

[Tigz]

haha... Julio Torres was his name I think, WOW player brought in to save SWG. Hey, Tigiar - Sunrunner from SWG beginnings here. Basically they were not sure what to do in that game and took from community ideas and "path" in the beginning. The game started before it was ready to launch and kept playing catch up. BUT damn it was fun as hell!! Maybe same situation here and the Devs will adopt the ideas put out by this community. and again, still havin' fun here after all the enhancements. enjoy. be safe.

[ZionHalcyon]

Damn someone is full of themselves.

 

I will romanticize what I like based upon my experience, not your lordly pronouncement. SWTOR could have learned a thing or two from SWG. Spaceflight and ship construction alone was amazing. When SWTOR started they constantly asked what people want most to put on their wall of crazy and number one was space flight, you know STAR wars? Finally they just said "ain't happening" and eventually came out with this little pvp option but nothing in the magnitude of JTL.

 

I have many fond memories and even play on an emulator now and again. It is popular enough they have actually expanded the game creating new content, adding Bespin. Yes they truly did everything wrong for awhile and I bailed as did most the community. I did return and played, was there for the final day. Was sad.

 

Hardly.

 

I rarely ever talk about any of that because it's not germane to anything.

 

I don't stand on my high horse and remind everybody at every waking turn of all I did for a now Dead video game.

 

But every time someone wants to come in and try to whitewash what happens in swg and put it all on the developer's heads, and someone who was a part of all of that and witnessed it all first hand I will not allow such people to mislead others about what really happened.

 

That isn't me telling anyone how they should personally feel about swg but I will give an accurate accounting for those who did not live through it.

 

Everything else is simply explaining the credentials that I have to be able to do so.

 

Trust me if this was about my accomplishments in swg, I still got more to add to that list but frankly it's not important to this topic.

 

If I had to summarize, swg was brought down by two things:

 

Raph Koster being so enslaved to his vision of the game that he didn't allow for players to find fun ways to use the systems he created in an open-ended game system that was originally built to be flexible, and the developers enabling a player base with godlike power by destroying entire classes based on what was screamed about next, thus taking a community that was entirely awesome during the beta, and turning it into the most vile, entitled, toxic community in MMO history.

[Akevv]

Hmm, The way I remember SWG dying was that Lucas was always willing to trade the existing player base, for those they thought might play it after some ill advised change. It had literally nothing to do with the players, at all. It was always Lucas, looking over at WoW, wondering why they couldn't have those numbers, not players asking for nerfs. I think you give and put way too much power into the hands of the players. 300k subscriptions was a great accomplishment, but then WoW happened. That's what changed the game, not a thing to do with the community. I remember the community fondly, like, genuine friends that I traveled to Las Vegas to meet. I'd never get off my *** for this game, just sayin'. Smedley tried to tell the story regarding Lucas', but he never quite could because theyd have had his head. That guy, took all that abuse so some fat jerk over at Lucas never took the heat. I wouldn't have, NDA or not. Lucas deserved the hate, too. If you look closely enough, you can see how this game, was some sort of Lucas' project to prove that a Star Wars MMO that played and looked just like WoW, is what players really wanted. It failed in Galaxies, and it failed here, too.

 

Hardly.

 

I rarely ever talk about any of that because it's not germane to anything.

 

I don't stand on my high horse and remind everybody at every waking turn of all I did for a now Dead video game.

 

But every time someone wants to come in and try to whitewash what happens in swg and put it all on the developer's heads, and someone who was a part of all of that and witnessed it all first hand I will not allow such people to mislead others about what really happened.

 

That isn't me telling anyone how they should personally feel about swg but I will give an accurate accounting for those who did not live through it.

 

Everything else is simply explaining the credentials that I have to be able to do so.

 

Trust me if this was about my accomplishments in swg, I still got more to add to that list but frankly it's not important to this topic.

 

If I had to summarize, swg was brought down by two things:

 

Raph Koster being so enslaved to his vision of the game that he didn't allow for players to find fun ways to use the systems he created in an open-ended game system that was originally built to be flexible, and the developers enabling a player base with godlike power by destroying entire classes based on what was screamed about next, thus taking a community that was entirely awesome during the beta, and turning it into the most vile, entitled, toxic community in MMO history.

[Costello]

The CU and NGE were an attempt to chase the WoW market, though they mistook their audience and possibly never had the options to make the changes that made WoW the success it was.

 

Now there have been arguments that SWTOR always tried to chase the WoW market, I remember is Beta the comparisons between the Jedi Knight and the Warrior skills.

 

But regardless I'm not sure dumbing down the game and reducing the skills available is going to work here unless they can overhaul the entire combat experience and make it more responsive and less about managing your cool downs and rotations.

[Kass]

The CU and NGE were an attempt to chase the WoW market, though they mistook their audience and possibly never had the options to make the changes that made WoW the success it was.

 

Now there have been arguments that SWTOR always tried to chase the WoW market, I remember is Beta the comparisons between the Jedi Knight and the Warrior skills.

 

But regardless I'm not sure dumbing down the game and reducing the skills available is going to work here unless they can overhaul the entire combat experience and make it more responsive and less about managing your cool downs and rotations.

 

In reading the Dev notes about PTS here: https://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=9957653&postcount=269

 

I'm not left with the impression that they're 'dumbing it down'. I see consolidation, where instead of 8 to 16 characters with different disciplines, you have 1 'Main' that can switch Loadouts between them. Now purists will rightly be alarmed, as this is a deviation from 10 years of meat and potatoes game mechanics.

 

But for myself, I absolutely LOVE my main - and as a Sith Inquisitor: Assassin I have reaped the battlefields of the galaxy of its souls... but the Force is not so limited as to confine a Sith to only Darkness spec...

 

Whether Legends or Cannon, a Sith Assassin (or any other 'Class/Style') should be able to perform all the Force specialties of its class among its 3 Disciplines --- now because this is a game, and such a tool bar would be unwieldy and unmanageable, except by some seriously mental elite gamers perhaps, they seem to be taking the Lightsaber Stances cannon from Star Wars and was further developed through the original Expanded Universe (now Legends).

 

Whether or not this is a way of freshening up the game, or as I see it as a consolidation because just maybe their metrics show that on average players, despite having multiple characters, primarily gravitate towards one 'Main' that they immerse themselves in like I have?

 

If there's any truth to that anecdote of my own experience then I don't see it being a bad thing, or dumbing down the game.

 

Where I am concerned was with the missing Defensive's - but the Dev post referenced above clearly explains that A) This PTS is a early peek alpha test for them to share with the community to gauge reaction and solicit feedback (this is a very VERY good sign that they very much care about the existing player base and the health of the game and the community); B) That these Defensive's aren't necessarily going away, but are being merged and consolidated with existing skills; and C) This proves JackieKo is a good poster who's the right person for the Community Relations Team - She definately comes across as not only a pro, but a Star Wars Fan to boot.

 

So that brings us back to this idea - The SWTOR - Bioware EA people are by and large FANS of Star Wars and STORY for the game they help design, run, and administrate. SOE might have had rank and file that were nominally so, but the Executives were clearly not and saw Star Wars IP as a cash cow and nothing more; forever chasing numbers.

 

I think the "Doctors" of Bioware left standing a great employee culture that shines through the work product we get to see and play - I think the problem is either we transfer our biases and trauma's from other games, or EA's 'reputation' affects our perceptions (I know it colors mine - Thanks a lot Mass Effect Andromeda!)... but by and large the SWTOR team since inception through to 10 years present has done a great job imo - I think we just expect them to be unassailable perfect at all times and never have mistakes or missteps.

 

They deserve credit, and at the same time our supportive constructive critiques so at the minimum they have metrics to show recalcitrant Executives - 'Hey if you make us do this the community will revolt' or the like, so they have the pulse of things at the ground level to keep this beautiful game running for years to come.

 

[interjection: Master you are Rambling... please accept this Sleep Dart with my compliments]

[Soljin]

I can keep going. Former Munitions Senator and the brain child behind the weapons revamp that revitalized weaponsmith post nge - worked out when I picked Blixtev's brain and figured out how to get him to go along with a munitions revamp. Then took the idea to the people to get the support to push it through and revitalize a dead profession.

 

I had done more for SWG than you and many others ever had aside from the actual devs and some other senators cut from the same cloth as I and smart about selling improvements to their professions.

 

And even still, SWG by FAR was the most toxic community in MMos of that era, and frankly ever.

 

And those early failures had been studied by MANY looking to launch an MMO - SWG marked the death of player-developer collaboration for MANY games, not just MMOs, because the swg community let the power the developers gave them go to their head. Toxic and power-drunk; that is how I remember the SWG community at large.

 

And good people and rational voices were hazed, heckled, bullied, and abused in a manner no community team would ever let happen in this day and age. The server forums themselves were one big troll fest.

 

And then there were the sales threads, where the top smiths on each server would badmouth and under cut anyone trying to break into a crafting profession in order to maintain monopolies on their goods.

 

Yeah, you can you know what right off - I played the game long enough to know where the bodies were buried in that game, and for anyone who dares try to romanticize it; have I got quite the load of stories to the contrary.

 

 

For everyone else:

 

I am NOT solely blaming the players. They wouldn't have had that power had the devs not bent their knees and given it to them. And it is possible the devs were misled by the beta process - beta was the exact OPPOSITE - ideas flowed back and forth between player and dev, and players didn't revolt when a feature was cut. No entitlement. It was amazing and made us beta players feel like we really did help build that game along with the developers.

 

But Raph Koster effectively nerfed to hell more than half the combat classes right after launch, and it was always one at a time, whichever class the swg community screamed the loudest that they wanted destroyed.

 

And it wasn't long before the players took notice. I remember on MMORPG com and other gaming forums PvP players organizing and floating about what class they would get the devs to Nerf next. And then a class that was just nerfed planning revenge by screaming about the classes of the group that just got nerfed.

 

This went on for as long as Koster was there.

 

It wasn't until he was gone, and frankly Smedley after him, that Blix took over the job and ended the Nerf wars once and for all.

 

But by then, it was too late. The game had already been ravaged by cu and then NGE, neither of which would have been needed had the devs indulged the Nerf wars and enabled rampant toxicity in the swg community...

 

 

I'll romanticize SWG any time I want. I loved the game and love the memory of playing it still. Nothing you can type will change that. I had several accounts, A decent size guild and a city... We had a great time playing 16hrs a day and getting chewed out by our wives all the time.

 

SWG was more complex than a modern Korean MMO but back in 2003 and it was Star Wars... That alone makes it legendary and worth romanticizing.

 

BTW incase you didn't know... you come off super pretentious.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Soljin

[ZionHalcyon]

Hmm, The way I remember SWG dying was that Lucas was always willing to trade the existing player base, for those they thought might play it after some ill advised change. It had literally nothing to do with the players, at all. It was always Lucas, looking over at WoW, wondering why they couldn't have those numbers, not players asking for nerfs. I think you give and put way too much power into the hands of the players. 300k subscriptions was a great accomplishment, but then WoW happened. That's what changed the game, not a thing to do with the community. I remember the community fondly, like, genuine friends that I traveled to Las Vegas to meet. I'd never get off my *** for this game, just sayin'. Smedley tried to tell the story regarding Lucas', but he never quite could because theyd have had his head. That guy, took all that abuse so some fat jerk over at Lucas never took the heat. I wouldn't have, NDA or not. Lucas deserved the hate, too. If you look closely enough, you can see how this game, was some sort of Lucas' project to prove that a Star Wars MMO that played and looked just like WoW, is what players really wanted. It failed in Galaxies, and it failed here, too.

 

In truth, SWG's player base hit its high early, and then started a very slow bleed of players as the ongoing nerf wars were happening.

 

Because it plateaued so early, and was only losing players, that is the business reasons for facilitating the CU and then the NGE.

 

The other part of the reasoning for the NGE, was that when questioned why players were jumping ship from SWG prior to the NGE, the two reasons that kept coming up was that the game didn't have a good Star Wars story that players could immediately immerse themselves in (not everyone wants to just make their own stories - in fact most people don't), and that the game was just too complicated and too hard to really get started in.

 

The NGE was an attempt to rectify those - albeit an extremely poor one.

 

The thing is, SWG wasn't really marketed very well and even the developers didn't really know what it was, other than trying to make it Ultima Online with a Star Wars skin. The creator was the same, but Raph didn't really know what to do with a property like Star Wars. Ultimately, he just recreated his game with Star Wars trappings and expected it to go off without a hitch, all while not keeping up with an evolving player base. His missteps weaponized and toxified the entire player community. The decision not to balance PvP and PvE separately from the beginning is what opened the door for the nerf wars.

 

I give a lot of grief to the SWG players, because their entitled behavior and their wretched demeanor in a lot of cases went beyond the pale and would not be tolerated in the current environment with a lot more awareness and sensitivity to threats, trolling, and other behavior that would drive players away.

 

But ultimate blame does indeed fall to Raph Koster. Doesn't mean Julio Torres or John Smedley get a pass by any means, because they just made things worse and worse, but ultimately, the failure of basically everything in SWG falls on Raph's shoulders. Which is why I will never lionize him. And keep in mind that as a beta member, Raph spent a TON of time in the forums getting ideas and feedback from us. And all of us beta players were shocked, because the Raph we thought we knew during Beta did a complete about face and went off the rails as soon as the game went live, and none of us ever expected that same guy to go off the deep end like that.

 

And even to this day, Raph blames everyone but himself for the failure of the game, other than to say "sure, I was in charge, so ultimately blame lies with me, but let me tell you who REALLY was at fault... (proceeds to point a billion fingers and zero thumbs)"....

Edited July 19, 2021 by ZionHalcyon

[ZionHalcyon]

If you look closely enough, you can see how this game, was some sort of Lucas' project to prove that a Star Wars MMO that played and looked just like WoW, is what players really wanted. It failed in Galaxies, and it failed here, too.

 

I wanted to address this separately.

 

It really didn't "fail here too".

 

There was a completely different set of reasons why SWTOR didn't have the success it could have, and it actually starts with BioWare having a hissy fit that they wanted to make a Single player successor to KOTOR, and EA wanted an MMO.

 

That sounds like EA's fault at first, but at launch, SWTOR blew EVERYONE away. It wasn't WoW, but it had a damn good launch.

 

Except problem - BioWare

 

1. Had no experience making MMOs and therefore thought the players would get content done in years what actually took them months to complete, leading to a more than a year long drag on new content.
   
2. BioWare from the very beginning had (and continues to have) a flawed business model in sustaining an MMO (because their heart isn't in it) - rather than focus on content to improve retention, they are perfectly ok with players leaving to go play something else for a while, and then come back for a month when there is new content. Yes, I know this sounds crazy, but James Ohlen openly ADMITTED this.
   

 

If you want to read more about what really happened, read this thread, from contracted tester Nyman:

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968223

 

In it, BioWare attempts to try to deflect by saying Nyman was never a BioWare employee, but technically, paid testers that are contracted out are employees for their contract company, even as they test for say another video game company - it was a cheap try to deflect the negative optics of the time.

 

Give it a read - it really is fascinating and helps make a lot of sense with what the hell happened to SWTOR.

 

 

Having said that, I really do believe Keith Kannig DOES care about SWTOR. They still haven't changed their business model yet, but I can see they are trying to turn the titanic around. Not every choice is going to be popular, but it seems like now that EA has lost the exclusive license, they are investing in SWTOR again, likely to stave off Disney thinking about potential competition in the market.

 

After all, while SWG did indeed die, the reason it did was because Lucasfilm/arts group opted NOT to renew the licensing that allowed Sony to use Star Wars, because they had a replacement waiting in the wings in SWTOR...

[Toraak]

Not sure I'd say a WoW style Star Wars MMO failed here. This game has lasted 10 years. Not many online game games last anywhere near that long.

 

It may not have been as big as some had hoped, but it definitely isn't a failure.