An attempt of dialogue and a warning

[TevosisHot]

I'd definitely be one of the people calling for an abilty cull. Coming back to SWTOR after a few years away, it's really striking just how convoluted the rotations are compared to the smoother, more intuitive gameplay of say FFXIV or WoW.

 

And it's not like filling 4 bars with keybinds makes the game more complex. Most of the classes appear to just use very strict rotations with little in the way of reactive decision making to separate the great from the good. It's more just cumbersome and off-putting than challenging. And the irritation from it is one of the main reasons that I'd rather raid at a high level in WoW or even FFXIV than I would SWTOR.

 

You contradict yourself in your post something fierce, the part that separates the good from the great is the part that you are dismissing as not being complex, the good can be said of people that know how to dps in their class using their rotation (and most of them aren't even as convoluted as you make them) the great comes from people that know their class inside out and know how to use those abilities some people like yourself consider useless or filler.

The most fun I've had in this game was learning the ins and outs of classes and specs, what abilities to use and when, how to react to boss mechanics with the myriad of tools I had in my belt.

 

The fun in endgame content should not be culled just because some people that don't even engage in said content consider some icons in their bars( that they can remove) too cumbersome.

 

I have never in all my years of raiding hear a progression raider say they had too many abilities in their bar, if anything I heard them complain that they were in a different class than their main and that they missed x ability.

Only people that complain about bloat seem to be casual players with the usual "too much stuff in my bars" well don't put what you don't use in your bar and problem solved, this is what pts "loadouts" seem to come down to, they aren't removing abilities they are just hiding them in certain loadouts, why can't people that consider too many abilities a thing do that themselves already? Must Bioware press a hide ability button for these people to be happy and screw over people that actually use them all in endgame?

[zephrys]

You contradict yourself in your post something fierce, the part that separates the good from the great is the part that you are dismissing as not being complex, the good can be said of people that know how to dps in their class using their rotation (and most of them aren't even as convoluted as you make them) the great comes from people that know their class inside out and know how to use those abilities some people like yourself consider useless or filler.

 

It's not though is it? Anybody can memorise a set rotation with a bit of time on a training dummy. I did it every expansion in WoW as an aff lock until they revamped it into more of a reactive priority system. But for me, it's just not particularly engaging anymore and I'd rather spend my raiding time in other games even though I prefer every other aspect of SWTOR.

 

But there's also nothing to say each level can't have a mix of passive and actives traits under this system. That's how the Wow trees are set up and it gives people the option to go nuts with active abilities or just choose passives if they want. Seems to me that gives everybody a playstyle option rather than just satisfying one crowd of players who want loads of active abilities.

[CzarnyKolor]

Some of the most open-minded, friendly and helpful people in this game I met in ranked PvP community. They are always eager to teach less experienced players the nuances of their class and how to use them in extreme, fast-paced situations. Some will even train you in their personal stronghold arena until you're good. So no, not all people in ranked are said "arseholes". Again you narrow down your view by concentrating only on the negative aspect. Ranked PvP and NiMs matter a lot in this game and no every tryhard is toxic as hell.

Bottom line is this - we run a lot events, not just for ourselves, but for others as well, in addition to helping out and backfilling etcetera. That late night pug SM or HM run that was about to fail and got bailed out by someone on the fleet? Yeah - that is often someone with NiM experience, being a bit bored, hanging out on fleet, responding to the "LF".

 

Here's a thing though: The entire reaction to the PTS thus far is basically "Git gud!" to the lower able players, with a litany of complaints on how the devs dare cater to people not at the highest possible skill level. And yes, there will be players who will never try group content because they will feel that they cannot possibly juggle all those buttons. It's, by its nature, exclusive behaviour in a supposedly social experience. Insisting on ultra high skill ceiling for MMOs is stupid, because it makes it so much harder for people to be part of it, and frankly, it offers no benefits. Ability to push buttons fast is not a skill; Starcraft basically died by trying to make it so.

 

I main Vengeance. In sub lvl-75 content, you get thirty buttons to start with, plus stims, medpack, two relics to a total of roughly 35 buttons. Core rotation for vengeance is ten buttons, plus 6 defensive cooldowns, for a total of sixteen buttons. And I'm sorry, but if the lack of chilling scream, or whatever it's called on the rep side, makes it impossible for you to play the game, then I question your credentials of being a vet players.

 

Are there things that could be improved about the current state of PTS? Yes. Is threatening the devs about how you will leave if they dare to remove anything from frankly unnecessarily overcrowded bars a good feedback? Nope.

 

The number of people who tried to be constructive are drowned out by the drama queens who, again, declare the game dead while doing absolutely nothing to justify their stance. If this is this helpful, kind NiM and ranked community, then I will abstain from it, because it frankly seems anything but. It's basically elitism in all but name.

[TevosisHot]

It's not though is it? Anybody can memorise a set rotation with a bit of time on a training dummy. I did it every expansion in WoW as an aff lock until they revamped it into more of a reactive priority system. But for me, it's just not particularly engaging anymore and I'd rather spend my raiding time in other games even though I prefer every other aspect of SWTOR.

 

But there's also nothing to say each level can't have a mix of passive and actives traits under this system. That's how the Wow trees are set up and it gives people the option to go nuts with active abilities or just choose passives if they want. Seems to me that gives everybody a playstyle option rather than just satisfying one crowd of players who want loads of active abilities.

Way to cherry pick a post and ignore the content of it, you are not arguing in good faith since you already lied about the 4 bars of abilities (I do end game raiding and I've never fillled even 3 bars with stuff I will use in combat) and are obsessed with inserting "how Wow does it" into the argument, here's the thing I dont care about WoW I don't play a game that needs addons for me to be competitive in it, and I find hilarious that you find swtor rotations and abilites not engaging yet boast about Wow and its addons , that is something I consider the anthitesis of engaging macros and addons.

[zephrys]

Way to cherry pick a post and ignore the content of it, you are not arguing in good faith since you already lied about the 4 bars of abilities (I do end game raiding and I've never fillled even 3 bars with stuff I will use in combat) and are obsessed with inserting "how Wow does it" into the argument, here's the thing I dont care about WoW I don't play a game that needs addons for me to be competitive in it, and I find hilarious that you find swtor rotations and abilites not engaging yet boast about Wow and its addons , that is something I consider the anthitesis of engaging macros and addons.

 

Think that's your problem chief rather than a bad faith argument. Your first post was largely 'no true raider' gatekeeping because you couldn't envisage I had a different opinion from your own. Now this one's the same.

[phalczen]

If you follow forums at all, you know which abilities are missing and instead we're given a choice to pick 1 of 3 abilities that we already had prior to PTS. I'm referring to somewhat similar in their importance abilities on different classes, like Exfiltrate and Laceration on Concealment Operative, or Crushing Darkness and Phase Walk on Lightning Sorcerer.

Nope, we don't need clarification for something this obvious to go any further. Not from me that's for sure. From devs, yes.

 

But essential to what? An iconic experience? To PVP? To PVE? I mean, utilities which snare/slow are almost always unusable in operations. With very few exceptions, I never need the stun reduction utility on any of my classes during an operation. I mean, I can't imagine the removal of Force Kick, Resolute, etc. are intentional, so I think its safe to assume that those abilities are not being permanently removed. The execute ability is missing from Defense but is present in Vigilance, you just have to talk to the droid a few times and check your ability window. That may be an accident, but if its intentional, its not essential in my opinion. VG/PT tanks never had one and they are just as popular in NiM content as before. We'll survive.

 

Saber Throw might be essential, and there is much feedback on that, so it gives the Devs something to chew on. I think its presence matters more for Defense than Vigilance but that doesn't mean I'd quit over its absence in either spec. I'm not happy about it but lets see what happens?

 

These A and B paths from which we have to choose do not represent the full spectrum of combos we will have. So, we should dial back the doom and gloom. I agree with the concerns about the reduction in defensive cooldowns and some of the forced choices at certain levels. I agree that much of the way this is being presented and how it works in the first look has many parallels to the NGE of SWG, enough to make me uneasy. Although I don't have a specific quote, I distinctly remember Charles Boyd mentioning ability bloat on several livestreams. I do believe the pruning is happening now because I'm betting the loadout system requires every advanced class to have the same number of abilities. Only time will tell if the convenience of loadouts and respeccing outweighs the loss of some abilities. But I also recognize that of 4 new abilities supposed to be present, only one appears to be working at all, and incorrectly at that. So, there is time for a course correction here.

[ceryxp]

If you follow forums at all, you know which abilities are missing and instead we're given a choice to pick 1 of 3 abilities that we already had prior to PTS. I'm referring to somewhat similar in their importance abilities on different classes, like Exfiltrate and Laceration on Concealment Operative, or Crushing Darkness and Phase Walk on Lightning Sorcerer.

Nope, we don't need clarification for something this obvious to go any further. Not from me that's for sure. From devs, yes.

 

So, again, what do you consider essential because I am seeing a lot of talk about essential ability this or essential ability that but when we start getting into the nitty gritty they are most often talking about the Utilities that augment those abilities.

 

For example, Challenging Call is oft cited as an essential ability but when it is pointed out that it is only an AOE taunt for Defence, which will retain the ability, and a threat dump for Focus and Vigilance, which will more than likely receive a new threat dump ability, people bring up the Utilities rather than the base attributes of the ability. So really, the essential ability is not Challenging Call but actually the Utilities Guardianship and Stalwart Defence that augment Challenging Call and without them the loss of an AOE taunt that does not work for you if in a DPS spec would be trivial.

 

Since this is a super high level preview, and not a deep dive, there are a number of pieces that are not yet implemented. We do not have full details on all passives and we do not have details on whether Utilities will remain, be updated, or be removed. There are enough pieces that are not implemented, and enough information that we do not have, that one can not honestly declare how this will fully develop.

 

So, I ask again, what do you consider essential abilities? Note, abilities, not Utilities that augment those abilities because we do not have details about those.

Edited July 13, 2021 by ceryxp

[aeterno]

I got super triggered because I'm maining a guardian, know the class best, and will keenly feel the loss of skills I'm accustomed to.

 

I suspect I'll be less worked up about "trimming" of the classes I don't play as much and might even appreciate the dumbing down... and I think that this might be a common theme going forward. People super into specs will hate losing aspects of it and/or skills whereas the casual player base at large and newbies are likely to see and feel the positives.

[LeoAugustina]

Why are you always think newbies are idiots incapable to learn how to play with all abilities? We were newbies and we did it.

And they are not forced to play with all abilities. Get rid of them in your bar then.

[captainbladejk]

Why are you always think newbies are idiots incapable to learn how to play with all abilities? We were newbies and we did it.

And they are not forced to play with all abilities. Get rid of them in your bar then.

^ THIS. ALL OF THIS. People are only as helpless in this game as they choose to be. In fact The folks coming into the game today are better off than the first folks like us (don't know how long you've been playing, assuming by your statement) that have been here forever. The folks coming in today can look up guides, videos, and even ask long time veteran players for help if need be. None of that existed at the start of the game yet. Today if folks can't learn the game, it's because they don't want to.

[CzarnyKolor]

Why are you always think newbies are idiots incapable to learn how to play with all abilities? We were newbies and we did it.

And they are not forced to play with all abilities. Get rid of them in your bar then.

^ THIS. ALL OF THIS. People are only as helpless in this game as they choose to be. In fact The folks coming into the game today are better off than the first folks like us (don't know how long you've been playing, assuming by your statement) that have been here forever. The folks coming in today can look up guides, videos, and even ask long time veteran players for help if need be. None of that existed at the start of the game yet. Today if folks can't learn the game, it's because they don't want to.

 

No? This is not a matter of intelligence. It never was. You could train an average monkey to do buttons in a sequence and press DC on low health.

 

This is a matter of manual dexterity necessary to achieve good results within the system. And yes that is a barrier, and yes, there are people who inherently cannot achieve a level of dexterity required to handle 30 buttons. Lack of natural talent, medical conditions, all of it affects the ability to play the game well.

 

This is basically gating the end-game content behind a skill that adds nothing to the game. Ability to push buttons fast is not engaging, it is not strategy, because majority of people will do what guides tell them to do. Less abilities with more complex application pushes the game away from it being reliant on ability to push buttons fast, to a more thinking experience.

[Alanbra]

I still miss flamethrower on my merc.

I still miss cover on my scoundrel.

I miss slicing droids on my mara.

I miss phase walk on my shadow.

I don't see how anyone could argue that we need fewer abilities. The more toys my characters have in their toybox, the better.

[Prapcaster]

Sorry to say but the people in this thread saying there's too many abilities most likely don't do ranked or anything in pve harder then story mode. If you want this game to be more casual just say that. But don't scream at people because of your own inability to learn to keybind and learn your class. Edited July 14, 2021 by Prapcaster

[CzarnyKolor]

Sorry to say but the people in this thread saying there's too many abilities most likely don't do ranked or anything in pve harder then story mode. If you want this game to be more casual just say that. But don't scream at people because of your own inability to learn to keybind.

 

It's about accessibility. You can easily do any PvE content up to NiM without using every ability on your bar. As a matter of fact, trying to actually use them all is going to be actively detrimental to your play style, both as a tank and as a DPS. Standard DPS rotation on Vigilance/Vengeance involves a third of available buttons, plus six DCs. Just try to imagine the amount of screaming that would ensure if you'd have wasted your GDC on something like Chilling Scream/Freezing Force as a DPS.

Edited July 14, 2021 by CzarnyKolor

[Prapcaster]

It's about accessibility. You can easily do any PvE content up to NiM without using every ability on your bar. As a matter of fact, trying to actually use them all is going to be actively detrimental to your play style, both as a tank and as a DPS. Standard DPS rotation on Vigilance/Vengeance involves a third of available buttons, plus six DCs. Just try to imagine the amount of screaming that would ensure if you'd have wasted your GDC on something like Chilling Scream/Freezing Force as a DPS.

 

Okay see I agree witth you but this isn't what other people are talking about. They're saying to remove actual rotational abilities. But yeah those kind can be removed. But not abilities like saber throw.

[CzarnyKolor]

Okay see I agree witth you but this isn't what other people are talking about. They're saying to remove actual rotational abilities. But yeah those kind can be removed. But not abilities like saber throw.

 

That's why we have the feedback thread though? If the overwhelming majority want Saber Throw back, it will be back.

 

And I'm not in the slightest surprised that it was placed in the optional category for this iteration of the PTS. Remember, TOR gets your combat logs. As Saber Throw is a filler option for both DPS specs, it is likely that in stats it shows at being not used that often, mostly because while it can be useful, it is not essential. We have at least six months of testing which abilities could be removed, and which should stay. If you think something that you really like, or consider necessary is missing, by all means, make your voice heard, but people are going too far in the other direction, threatening to quit the game if even the most menial of abilities are removed.

Edited July 14, 2021 by CzarnyKolor

[Prapcaster]

That's why we have the feedback thread though? If the overwhelming majority want Saber Throw back, it will be back.

 

And I'm not in the slightest surprised that it was placed in the optional category for this iteration of the PTS. Remember, TOR gets your combat logs. As Saber Throw is a filler option for both DPS specs, it is likely that in stats it shows at being not used that often, mostly because while it can be useful, it is not essential. We have at least six months of testing which abilities could be removed, and which should stay. If you think something that you really like, or consider necessary is missing, by all means, make your voice heard, but people are going too far in the other direction, threatening to quit the game if even the most menial of abilities are removed.

 

 

Not really the point I was making. I was addressing the people that want several abilities abilities removed because they're casual players and can't figure out their class. Bioware shouldn't completely ignore them but at the end of the day new/casual players who pretty much just do the storyline and a couple sm operations probably don't even know what passives are. The game being hard for them isn't an excuse to dumb it down into an action style mmo like eso.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Prapcaster

[ceryxp]

Not really the point I was making. I was addressing the people that want several abilities abilities removed because they're casual players and can't figure out their class. Bioware shouldn't completely ignore them but at the end of the day new/casual players who pretty much just do the storyline and a couple sm operations probably don't even know what passives are. The game being hard for them isn't an excuse to dumb it down into an action style mmo like eso.

 

And you know that they are new and casual players how? Oh, right, you assumed. Because only new and casual players could support a streamlining of class abilities because they obviously can not figure out their class. Only real players are against this because their are capable of following a rotation and reading ability and utility descriptions. Nice no true Scotsmen made out of straw you have built there.

 

And let me stop you before you start in on your red herring ad hominems. I neither support not disagree with these changes. This PTS build is not finished enough to make a firm judgement. I do think there are some problems, but I also think that there are a number of interesting possibilities. I am waiting for the rest of the information to come out. It would have been fine for BW to put out this PTS build for player testing and input if they had included with it a complete character build mock-up with all details about the character build included instead of just dumping this half produced system on us with half of the build information missing.

 

You want to know why you, your camp of naysayers, are receiving so much pushback? It is because you guys can not see grey. We are either with you as real players or against you because we are casuals who do not know how to play.

Edited July 14, 2021 by ceryxp

[theSCARAYone]

What you are talking about though are balancing issues. If they can make those fewer abilities more worthwhile and balance them to compensate for the loss, then it should be all good.

 

That said, I agree they really screwed up this version of PTS with poor management of expectations.

 

Ability glut is real, but the guardian is probably the worst class that you could choose to trim compared to almost any other class. The guardian's kit is almost if not fully complete. Now if we were trimming sentinels or mandos, that I could get behind.

[captainbladejk]

And you know that they are new and casual players how? Oh, right, you assumed. Because only new and casual players could support a streamlining of class abilities because they obviously can not figure out their class. Only real players are against this because their are capable of following a rotation and reading ability and utility descriptions. Nice no true Scotsmen made out of straw you have built there.

 

And let me stop you before you start in on your red herring ad hominems. I neither support not disagree with these changes. This PTS build is not finished enough to make a firm judgement. I do think there are some problems, but I also think that there are a number of interesting possibilities. I am waiting for the rest of the information to come out. It would have been fine for BW to put out this PTS build for player testing and input if they had included with it a complete character build mock-up with all details about the character build included instead of just dumping this half produced system on us with half of the build information missing.

 

You want to know why you, your camp of naysayers, are receiving so much pushback? It is because you guys can not see grey. We are either with you as real players or against you because we are casuals who do not know how to play.

How many times are you people going to talk about these mythical players who are having so many problems with so called ability glut or similar without telling us who they are? Where are these mythical people having so many issues? By all means I want to know so we can get them the help they're clearly not getting by your logic. Is it because they're a new player? Is it because they're a long time player going to a class/spec they've never tried before? Is it because they skipped straight to level 70 and got the entire toolkit at once? Is it because the tooltips aren't as clear as they could be? Is this particular class/spec the wrong fit for that particular player? We won't know how to help these mythical people because you all won't tell us who they are. If these people really exist at all, you wouldn't be so afraid to point them out to us so we can sit down and answer their questions. By hiding behind these mythical players it gives you a convenient curtain to hide behind so you can play the "certainly you're not opposed to helping the new players/struggling players" type of game. It's no different than a politician pull the classic "certainly you don't oppose helping the children" card.

 

Every ability has a purpose and every ability has a use that can easily be understood if folks sit down, read what they do, and take the time to do a little experimentation on some mobs or a dummy. If they still don't get it they can look up a guide, look up a video, or 'gasp' ask for help from a more experienced player. We're not fresh out of the beta where that information didn't exist yet, we're nearly 10 years into the game. People today have the benefit of 10 years of info gathered by folks that they can benefit from. In today's game people are only as helpless as they choose to be. If myself or anyone else puts out guides, videos, or offers to help people, and they choose not to listen or take the help offered, then they've chosen to keep struggling and it's no longer my problem. At that point the fault isn't with the game, the fault is with the user.

 

As for the "let's wait and see because we don't have all the info yet" argument, how long do you intend to wait? Right now we have all the available information, which suggests this is a massive dumpster fire. If you start a grease fire in your kitchen, are you going to wait for it to catch your whole house on fire before you do anything, or are you going to try to stop it before it gets out of control? They've told us what they want to do in the forum posts and the blogs. They've given us this PTS setup to show us what they want to do. If they've fumbled the Guardian this badly, then we can make an informed inference that the other classes are just as bad off since they want to do the same to them. Folks are speaking up now to say this sucks so it will give them enough time to make changes, vs waiting to the last second which would screw over the devs and players alike.

 

As for "unable to see grey" there are things that can have shades of gray, and then there are objective facts that are plain black and white. If I have 10 abilities, you steal 5 from me, then give 2 of them back, I'm still losing 3 abilities I've had since launch. No matter how you slice it, that's a straight up nerf. The only way it would ever not be a nerf is if the overall power level and survivability of the class stayed the same without those 3 abilities, and there is no evidence to suggest we would as of yet. In fact PTS testing is showing the exact opposite to be true, that the Guardian would be worse off, which demonstrates it to be a straight up nerf based off what we have now. Future information and updates may change that situation for the better, and I really hope it does. However as the saying goes "don't count your hens before they hatch." Until they actually give us this info, we can't take it into account, because we don't know what we don't know. We can only go by what we have now.

 

Lastly on your final point, I'm not fond of the whole "streamline it for new players" aka "do it for the new players" type of attitude because it assumes that new players are too stupid to learn the game. It also assumes that only new players could have issues. With all of that said, I'm all for helping people who need it and want to learn. Yet when you say "these people need help and aren't getting it" but keep avoiding saying who "these people" are, it becomes a case of the boy who cried wolf. At that point you've done little more than create a weapon to beat people over the head with like a politician saying "do it for the children."

[ceryxp]

How many times are you people going to talk about these mythical players wh...

 

Gonna stop you right there because now you are putting words in my mouth and the rest of your post, being that it is based upon a faulty assumption, is complete falderal.

 

I asked a question. How does the person I quoted know that these people who support this are new and or casual? Simple question. I never once made a single assertion about anyone needing abilities trimmed, or even that there was ability bloat. Not. Once.

 

So how about you take a step back, and stop looking at this through a lens of "us vs them." Hmm? Is that possible, Captain?

 

As far as missing information. Saying "Right now we have all the available information" is like saying "I support the troops" or "We don't know what we don't know." These are truisms. Self evident truths. Of course we have all available information. Because this is all they have put out. If you can not see what is missing then there is no hope for having a dialogue with you because all you can understand is what is right in front of your face. Well, that, and whatever you put into other people's mouths to support your faulty argument.

 

Edit:

Oh, but I did want to address this one bit of revisionist history.

As for "unable to see grey" there are things that can have shades of gray, and then there are objective facts that are plain black and white. If I have 10 abilities, you steal 5 from me, then give 2 of them back, I'm still losing 3 abilities I've had since launch.

 

No, you have not. Saber Reflect was added with 2.0. Blade Blitz was added with 4.0.

 

And since people can not seem to remember their history then allow me to remind you that the entire system was changed with 3.0 when they dropped the skill trees and put in Disciplines. Prior to Disciplines we had a measure of control over how we built our characters. With Disciplines we all became cookie cutter using the exact same abilities and passives save for the few choices we had with Utilities. Disciplines and Utilities were a complete departure from what we had since launch.

 

If you learnt to adapt after the change from skill trees to Disciplines and Utilities then you will learn to adapt with the change to Combat Styles.

Edited July 15, 2021 by ceryxp

[captainbladejk]

Gonna stop you right there because now you are putting words in my mouth and the rest of your post, being that it is based upon a faulty assumption, is complete falderal.

 

I asked a question. How does the person I quoted know that these people who support this are new and or casual? Simple question. I never once made a single assertion about anyone needing abilities trimmed, or even that there was ability bloat. Not. Once.

 

So how about you take a step back, and stop looking at this through a lens of "us vs them." Hmm? Is that possible, Captain?

 

As far as missing information. Saying "Right now we have all the available information" is like saying "I support the troops" or "We don't know what we don't know." These are truisms. Self evident truths. Of course we have all available information. Because this is all they have put out. If you can not see what is missing then there is no hope for having a dialogue with you because all you can understand is what is right in front of your face. Well, that, and whatever you put into other people's mouths to support your faulty argument.

And I'm going to stop you right there as well because now you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing, putting words into my mouth. In your original statement you said "And you know that they are new and casual players how? Oh, right, you assumed. Because only new and causal players could support streamlining of class abilities because they obviously can not figure out their class." thus insinuating there are more experienced people who are also having trouble. If you did not mean it to come off that way, okay fine i'll give you that one, but that's how it reads to me. Which again prompts the question, who are these people everyone keeps mentioning that are having a hard time with understanding their abilities? Who are these people? No one seems willing or able to name them, but are quick to hide behind them and try to bash folks like myself for not wanting to "streamline" the game for them.

 

You also try to tell me to "stop looking at this through a lens of "us vs them" yet here you are doing the same thing by referring to everyone else as naysayers because we dare give feedback that Bioware themselves asked for. If you want to think we don't have enough info yet, you're entitled to that opinion. However you having that opinion doesn't make it right.

 

Next you should take your own advice by reading what I said again, but slowly this time so you don't miss anything. Because now you're the one putting words in my mouth and displaying a woefully lacking understanding of context. Show me where I specifically said the information we have now is all they're ever going to release, because I would love to see that. What I did say is that we had all of the AVAILABLE information, as in all information they have currently made available to us at the time of my statement. I do hope they end up wowing us, but with all of the information available right now, it suggests a massive dumpster fire, which is why myself and other people are speaking out on this. Right now it doesn't look good, and we want to know where their minds are at and where they're going. Is their idea of change simply chopping up the toolkit, then feeding it back to us, or is there something more they've yet to release? Because right now, it looks like we're getting less content while they pretend to have done us a favor. Again this is based off what we know right now, and does NOT take into account potential future releases. Not that hard to grasp.

 

 

Edit:

Oh, but I did want to address this one bit of revisionist history.

 

 

No, you have not. Saber Reflect was added with 2.0. Blade Blitz was added with 4.0.

 

And since people can not seem to remember their history then allow me to remind you that the entire system was changed with 3.0 when they dropped the skill trees and put in Disciplines. Prior to Disciplines we had a measure of control over how we built our characters. With Disciplines we all became cookie cutter using the exact same abilities and passives save for the few choices we had with Utilities. Disciplines and Utilities were a complete departure from what we had since launch.

 

If you learnt to adapt after the change from skill trees to Disciplines and Utilities then you will learn to adapt with the change to Combat Styles.

I needed a good laugh dude and you delivered on this one. Do you really not understand what a generalized statement is, or did you just rush so quickly to get a reply out that you completely missed what was said? Show me specifically where I said Blade Blitz or where I said Saber Reflect, because I would love to see that. What I said was: "If I have 10 abilities, you steal 5 from me, then give 2 of them back, I'm still losing 3 abilities I've had since launch." Show me anywhere in that statement that I named a specific ability, because you won't find it. Now who's operating on faulty assumptions and putting words into other's mouths.

 

Again I was there when we went to disciplines and they dropped the massive mega skill trees. If you think the big mega skill trees didn't have cookie cutter builds, you're kidding yourself. They were far far worse for cookie cutter builds than the Disciplines have ever been. I can't tell you the number of people I saw pass up on core abilities they were meant to have, just for some minor passive that is nothing. This is why most games have abandoned large skill trees as they don't provide much in the way of meaningful choice. Cool you got another passive you'll never see, cool you leveled up and got a 2nd passive you'll never seen, then a 3rd, then a 4th, then a 5th, then oh man we finally got an actual active ability we can see. While some passive abilities are necessary for a system like that, most of them were abilities that you placed points into and forgot about their existence.

 

Even then your emotion based arguments don't answer the question of why folks feel such potentially massive nerfs are needed to start with. You should take your own advise about now putting words into other people's mouths before you speak again.

[afwhoefuwov]

Newish player here, I returned since late 2020. Before that, I played very very little at around 2013ish. At the time, I only had 1 Marauder, couldnt get past that Jedi on Tatooine, life got in the way and I stopped. My playtime was 1 week.

 

I considered myself to be "newish" because well, I know about SWTOR and that's it; everything else (classes, abilities, stories) I completely forgot so I came back brand new.

 

I'd like to point out that now it is so easy for me to Google a guide and learn the rotation. Hell, back in 2013 I didnt know Mara needs a 2nd resource builder. There are indeed many abilities but I like the freedom to choose them. If I do not like one, I drop it out of the quickbar.

 

I run SW Jugg (switch between Tank and Vengeance), Sorc (Lightning) and Mara (Carnage and Fury). I have 3 quickbars: 1 for Attacking abilities, 1 for Buff/Heal/Taunts and 1 short one (4 slots) for Stuns.

 

It might look a lot but I do use all of the abilities, some more frequent than the other. If I dont like one, I just drop it off the bar or dont use it. I rather have abilities and choose not to use them, than having the abilities taken away. As a Jugg main, I am really worried about choosing between Reflect, Endure Pain and Mad Dash.

[silviaslack]

Every ability has a purpose and every ability has a use

 

I understand everything being discussed about PTS is from a mechanical point of view as it should be, but I would like to add a bit of fantasy perspective since this is a MMORPG after all.

 

Every single ability has its own distinctive animation that plays as RPG fantasy, if you reduce the amount of abilities you also reduce variety in animations, that's a little bit of RPG fantasy that goes down the toilet.

Edited July 15, 2021 by silviaslack

[Esron]

ok here is my 5 cents on this subject.

I have 40 toons in total, 30 on EU based servers, 10 on US based servers.

I'm not a completionist nor am i a pvp player. i on random occasions try out a SF match but thats it.

I play with all my toons and they are each based on a certain space barbie style with gear matching and i play the story lines through with choises that reflects them. i have played all classes, all specs and done almost everything the game has to offer over the years, im a founder and collectors edition player. Now with all that said....

For PVE i have alot of "unused" abilities that i simply dont put on my toolbars simply because they have little or no function in PVE, i do however see how some of those abilities can be enacted through PVP since it makes sense to use them there. This is why we have different UI settings and a myriad of ways to go about them. All you need to do is simple save the UI for what purpose you are using it for and thus unused abilities will not show up filling out your toolbars with junk you never use.

I am amazed that most of all these complaints are about abilities since every game evolves and this game certainly have over the years. ( they dumbed it down tons allready since launch ) but i dont see abilities being an issue about dumbing the game down really.

What i do notice is the lack of new classes and bug fixes that are still in the game, lack of propper content that takes more than a measly 30 min to go through even without skipping cutscenes, game engine fixes that most of the players have been on about for years now, and for me this is the most important part, the ability to swap factions so if you start out as a light side on the rep side, you could join the imps on their side visiting the imp stations on planets and in space etc.( and not as the disfunctional saboteur i really dislike )

 

These changes are what would really make a HUGE difference in the game for me, not the pruning of abilities nor swapping class specs on the run, cause i dont see me doing that with all my toons, cause why should i ?? i have one of each class spec allready thus making this "update" unwanted for me.... If i wanted the ability to have 1 toon and play all specs with it, they should have implemented this change lightyears ago, not after so much time has passed by and with so many other things needed a caring hand in the game.

 

This is a weak ffxiv class change attempt in my world and it comes way to late...

 

Thats my 5 cents, like it or not. thats what i think about this change....