Why are people missing the big points on slicing?

[RvEijndhoven]

I am not sure, but why should anybody make money from running missions??

 

And herein lies the problem. Herein lies the whinefest that motivated Bioware to nerf Slicing into the ground.

 

It's players seeing the situation and coming to the wrong conclusion.

 

What you did here was go "I'm not making any money, why should they?"

 

When what you should have done is say "They're making money, so should I!"

 

I see tons and tons of people saying 'Crafting was never intended to make you money'. This is a lie. Or at least it's a lie in so far as those people have no official confirmation that this is in any way true and they claim it any way.

 

Why? Because they're not making any money off of their Crew Skills and they can't stand that others were.

 

I'm Artifice/Archeology/Treasure Hunting myself and I worked with my brother who is/was Synthweaving/Underworld Trading/Slicing. Pre-nerf we made a slight profit, post-nerf we're both broke.

 

Why? Because now we both have Crew Skill sets that only lose us money.

Sure, Slicing still has a slight positive balance when it comes to Credits invested vs. Credits gained, but the missions for Underworld Trading alone suck all of that income right back done the drain and I'm Archeologizing for two at a considerable loss.

 

Crew Skills need to stop being a money sink.

 

People claim that 'most crew skills will be profitable by lvl 50/when the economy settles'. This too is not true, because by the time I've reached lvl 50 (or reach 400 skill) I will have spent nearly a million credits on simply getting up the three skills I need to craft items anyone would be willing to buy. Unless I can sell those items for a significant profit a pop (I can't, because the missions needed to get those items cost credits too, so even if I manage to sell a lvl 50 item for 50k credits it took 20k credits to get the materials for that) it will still take months before the Crew Skills actually turns a profit.

 

Short version of the above paragraph:

Just because an item sells for more than it cost to make, doesn't make it profitable, because getting to the point where you can make it costs a load of credits too.

[OdonKnight]

That and the fact that no other gathering profession has successful missions that actually results in a net loss of materials either. I don't send a companion out to get me color crystals, have them succeed, and then get 2 taken out of my inventory.

 

I know you mean well and I know what you want is for your effort and time (sending follower x on a mission) to be productive in credits above and beyond any specials you get as well as the increase in skills. I get that. Nothing wrong with having that opinion except it is a time-bomb for the economy as a whole.

 

1. It enables low level chars to race through slicing and have exceedingly high amounts of money as compared to non-slicers of the same level. Cost of players sold goods climbs as well as diluting the difficulty of getting mounts/etc.

 

2. As the slicer is also a crafter the slicer can buy all the goods they want and make their crafted items and destroy non-slicers from penetrating the market. (as rare items for better than green designs are expensive)

 

3. The biggie - Having the ability to click a few buttons for a relatively low level character to send off companions that results in a profit is an open invitation to massive gold farmers/bot farming for credits which will then make economic problems of increased cash availability worse. The more money there is of a currency the less it is worth.

 

BW absolutely has to remove the ability to click a few buttons and print money. They just had to. Are further tweaks necessary - absolutely. The virtual economy is still just getting started.

 

addendum: Other skills have failed missions too so spending 2K hoping to get some power crystals might result in crystals, but might result in a goose egg. Regardless, then you have to spend time to do something with the crystals (making them or selling them) - neither of which is a guarantee unlike if you get a straight profit from slicing missions - $$$ for little time. Recipe for hyperinflation and a fertile field for gold sellers to exploit.

[Velisael]

click button - pay credits - receive materials.

click button - pay credits - craft item.

click button - sell item - gain credits.

 

Just more clicks to achieve the same thing...

 

Same thing as Slicing? I am confused... the point is all the clicks of a button made my whole process at a financial net loss. However in return, I leveled my skills without having to go out and physically farm mats. Nor do I have to scour the GTN looking for "great deals". I will admit the mission button is perfect for people who do not want to spend the time to do associated tasks of leveling crafting (which are quite tedious):

 

- Run around the world plotting and gathering from nodes

- Switch to a different area as the nodes you gather from do not give you levels

- Scour an AH looking for mats in bulk to reduce your gathering time

- Sit at a crafting station yourself and queue up X amount of objects to level actual craft

 

I assume this was BioWare's intention. I will admit though, Slicing's concept other than special missions does not really support any other gatherer/crafter role. Which I believe is why so many people have now equated Slicing as a profession that just earns money. You "gather" credits. The concept of "gathering" currency is broken and mind-boggling. If they didn't nerf it, it could technically replace grinding mobs (also mind-boggling)!

[Zakkana]

I know you mean well and I know what you want is for your effort and time (sending follower x on a mission) to be productive in credits above and beyond any specials you get as well as the increase in skills. I get that. Nothing wrong with having that opinion except it is a time-bomb for the economy as a whole.

 

1. It enables low level chars to race through slicing and have exceedingly high amounts of money as compared to non-slicers of the same level. Cost of players sold goods climbs as well as diluting the difficulty of getting mounts/etc.

 

2. As the slicer is also a crafter the slicer can buy all the goods they want and make their crafted items and destroy non-slicers from penetrating the market. (as rare items for better than green designs are expensive)

 

3. The biggie - Having the ability to click a few buttons for a relatively low level character to send off companions that results in a profit is an open invitation to massive gold farmers/bot farming for credits which will then make economic problems of increased cash availability worse. The more money there is of a currency the less it is worth.

 

BW absolutely has to remove the ability to click a few buttons and print money. They just had to. Are further tweaks necessary - absolutely. The virtual economy is still just getting started.

 

addendum: Other skills have failed missions too so spending 2K hoping to get some power crystals might result in crystals, but might result in a goose egg. Regardless, then you have to spend time to do something with the crystals (making them or selling them) - neither of which is a guarantee unlike if you get a straight profit from slicing missions - $$$ for little time. Recipe for hyperinflation and a fertile field for gold sellers to exploit.

 

1) A solution to that already has been suggested numerous times. Tie the level of the mission to the character's level. So in order to start running level 6 missions, your character would need to be level 49. This would have the ability scale leveling. It has even been suggested that it be restricted to one character per server and per faction. I also mentioned maybe limiting the number of companions that can be sent out on single skill too.

 

2) Crafting is fed by two professions thus making it impossible for a slicer to be able to totally dominate a crafting area. Second, for all intents and purposes, crafting really does not matter until level 50 when the gear is not changing anymore like it does while leveling. If the crafter is a artifice, then they are going to be going without archaeology or treasure hunting. BW can further enforce this by placing the same restriction on gathering and mission skills like they do for crafting.

 

3) #1 fixes that. Also, people have been reporting increases in credit-selling spam because they sellers smell blood in the water because they know how expensive things are at 50 and so forth. I got my first credit spam a few days in. In Coruscant general chat we were all laughing at it because "Why buy credits when slicing provides me with what I need?

 

As for failed missions, when you fail the mission, you lose the money. But we're talking successful missions losing too. It is akin to someone sending out their companion for some Rubat Crystals, having them succeed, and then having 4 Rubat crystals taken from their inventory.

[Velisael]

Why? Because they're not making any money off of their Crew Skills and they can't stand that others were.

 

I do see and agree on your point of us telling BioWare that all should be fair (hence all should just make money). I am not even going to argue about the ensuing inflation as a result(economics of SWTOR).

 

I am just stating my opinion and experience from MMOs since EverQuest (the first I started with) that for most, crafting is NOT supposed to make you rich at the ONSET. I say ONSET in terms of this game not being a month oldl, and in the sense that people less than the level cap are already quite wealthy.

 

But slicing has just done that. So, my knee-jerk reaction (since I am investing time and money in this game) is to fix all broken concepts before this game really takes off like WoW. Otherwise it will just stagnate and die, and I would have wasted another $60 and hours of my life like I did in Rift

[DustomaticGXC]

Calling people stupid means you cannot really counter the argument and therefore you have waved the white flag. I gracefully accept your surrender sir.

 

Way to take that out of context and ignore the rebuttal I gave right after it.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

[RvEijndhoven]

If you need money, then grind mobs and instances like in other MMOs you played?

 

See, the point here is that if people liked that aspect of other MMO's they played, they would still be playing that other MMO.

 

Forced grinding (where you HAVE to grind to achieve something, rather than choosing to grind to gain more than standard play would gain you) is boring from the onset, gets annoying quickly and ultimately leads to more people quitting than bad PvP balance, nerfs to one's favourite class and bugs combined.

 

Forcing you to grind money so you can pay for Crew Skill missions (and half a million other money sinks) when the big selling point (which was loudly proclaimed in trailers and is still on the site) for TOR's Crafting system was that you wouldn't have to grind or take time out from your regular play to craft is even worse.

[CRNphg]

Same thing as Slicing? I am confused... the point is all the clicks of a button made my whole process at a financial net loss.

 

If crafted items would sell on GTN for more then it cost to make you would get profit wouldn't you?!

[Velisael]

Apparently you have not been keeping up with current events..... NODES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE GAME ON SOME PLANETS

 

I am aware of this, but this does not change the fact that gathering nodes provide more profit than missions (which is normal mechanic wise). I noticed that some planets are more abundant in some nodes of a specific type than other planets. Some areas of specific style are also more abundant in some nodes of a specific type. This game is new. Spend the time and scour the galaxy, make notes and figure which is the best farm spot! You have to work to get return.

 

Every game has gone through this right? Finally some helpful player creates a guide containing a definitive method in farming nodes so we don't have to explore and figure thing s out ourselves. Eventually it will happen for this game. In the meantime, we wait and test via trial and error. Guys you are the pioneers of a new MMO. This is how vanilla WoW was like when I started. You think anybody came up and said "YO I AM BAAAWSSS, because I am super rich from skinning, mining and herbing!!!"

 

LOL I guess, I am not being lazy about professions. I see missions as a convenience when you are short materials. Not as a mechanic that entirely replaces running around gathering or crafting. Unless of course you are rich and just power-level through missions. Call me old-fashioned I guess

[OdonKnight]

1) A solution to that already has been suggested numerous times. Tie the level of the mission to the character's level. So in order to start running level 6 missions, your character would need to be level 49. This would have the ability scale leveling. It has even been suggested that it be restricted to one character per server and per faction. I also mentioned maybe limiting the number of companions that can be sent out on single skill too.

 

<Error: This only delays the gold sellers. This would keep low level hars from getting the level 6 missions but does nothing to stop (click button and make money) - yes further tweaks are neded>

 

2) Crafting is fed by two professions thus making it impossible for a slicer to be able to totally dominate a crafting area. Second, for all intents and purposes, crafting really does not matter until level 50 when the gear is not changing anymore like it does while leveling. If the crafter is a artifice, then they are going to be going without archaeology or treasure hunting. BW can further enforce this by placing the same restriction on gathering and mission skills like they do for crafting.

 

<Error: Wrong. Slicing made so much money that it easily enabled one to buy the mats an alternate skill would've collected for you. (instead of spending 1000 for a mission for a certain number of mats - slicer can buy the same for far less). Again - it all revolves around ROI - people will gravitate to the most efficient ROI method for $$$ making and that was far above and beyond everything else slicing - click button make money. Not click button get mats, then click other skill button get mats and make something from mats and or sell mats directly. You can do the latter as a slicer but only the slicer could do the former. Former is excellent ROI RE time, the latter is not as good.>

 

3) #1 fixes that. Also, people have been reporting increases in credit-selling spam because they sellers smell blood in the water because they know how expensive things are at 50 and so forth. I got my first credit spam a few days in. In Coruscant general chat we were all laughing at it because "Why buy credits when slicing provides me with what I need?

 

<NO. This only delays the farming to farmers who get their farming bots to 50 which will then compound the problem. Level 50 bot farmer - sending out 5 people on slicing - click button - make money. High $$ for time invested ratio. Also, "I got my first credit spam a few days in. In Coruscant general chat we were all laughing at it because "Why buy credits when slicing provides me with what I need?" <-- Indeed but that farmers projected customer wasn't you - it was the poor schlub who sees what others can do/get and wants to be like the jones' and your statement PROVES my point. You had the money - did everyone else?>

[MagusZ]

Wouldn't a simple solution be this...you can only do missions in the bracket your current level states or lower?

 

Also or instead, combine slicing lockbox missions to return both a current level lockbox and an argument? Normal returns: Lockbox returning 50-75% and a green/blue at-level argument? Where as crits will return a 75%-125% lockbox, a blue/purple argument, and maybe a mission pattern?

 

Yea you'll get more back from missions than any other gathering mission, but from how I understand it, Slicing is kinda a combination of a gathering and a mission skill.

[Velisael]

If crafted items would sell on GTN for more then it cost to make you would get profit wouldn't you?!

 

You are right! However, running missions takes away from the profit but provided you a convenience. In answering the above post as well, BioWare has touted a new way to craft that allows you to do other things in game. They never said it was free. Also take a look at the way the mechanic works. Crafting costs the least money per item (or per level increase). Missions that Gather cost the most per level increase). However, you do get the benefit of being able to level your crafting while PvP-ing or running an instance. BioWare was touting value-added crafting that did not take away from you enjoying "the meat" of the game.

 

I apologize to all if I have riled them up about this issue. I am honestly trying to see the opinions of the community on this issue, and also shed insight as to how I think this crafting/gathering system should work (based on other games).

 

Yes one community member responded that grinding is boring, but remember this is an MMO. If any game developer were to break that mold too deeply, the game would no longer be an MMO that could hold millions of subscribers for years (or even a decade). Grinding, to some extent, is required in all MMOs. It is simply about how the game implements the grind so that (boring as it may be), the reward is enough to make you forget about the tedious act.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Velisael

[RvEijndhoven]

But slicing has just done that.

 

No, it actually hasn't.

 

At higher levels there are a ton of Money sinks that are incredibly costly specifically to balance out the Beta's Slicing Enhanced economy.

 

Now Slicing is nerfed but those money sinks are still in.

 

End result is that until you hit lvl 50 and the biggest of those money sinks (Skill buying) falls away, you will be perpetually broke OR not spending credits on anything other than the money sinks.

 

Plus, people say that money going into the economy will 'cause inflation'.

 

This is the case in EVERY MMO, by which I means that in every MMO ever this already happens. Except that usually, as will be the case with TOR now, it's because people who are max level are sending a bunch of the money they make at max level to their lower level Alts who can then easily outbid any non-alt/non-lvl 50 funded players of the same level. Likewise with characters belonging to Guilds who have bunch of max levels who have enough money to spend on buying gear for their lower leveled guildies without being broke instantly themselves.

 

So the idea that Slicing will 'ruin the economy', or at least that idea that only Slicing will ruin the economy, while the natural cycle that every MMO goes through will not is basically BS.

As for the economy getting ruined by too much money? Yeah, but you know what ruins economies even more? Not enough money. When everyone's spending all their money on Money sinks because Devs don't want the economy overflowing and no one has any money left to buy from other players, there is no economy at all.

[Zakkana]

<Error: This only delays the gold sellers. This would keep low level hars from getting the level 6 missions but does nothing to stop (click button and make money) - yes further tweaks are neded>

 

Hasn't slowed them down yet. They've actually ramped up efforts because now they have a more willing base.

 

<Error: Wrong. Slicing made so much money that it easily enabled one to buy the mats an alternate skill would've collected for you. (instead of spending 1000 for a mission for a certain number of mats - slicer can buy the same for far less).>

 

And those mats just magically appeared on the GTN? Some other gatherer had to consciously choose to put them up for sale. That gatherer made the choice to feed someone else's crafting instead of their own.

 

<NO. This only delays the farming to farmers who get their farming bots to 50 which will then compound the problem. Level 50 bot farmer - sending out 5 people on slicing - click button - make money. High $$ for time invested ratio. Also, "I got my first credit spam a few days in. In Coruscant general chat we were all laughing at it because "Why buy credits when slicing provides me with what I need?" <-- Indeed but that farmers projected customer wasn't you - it was the poor schlub who sees what others can do/get and wants to be like the jones' and your statement PROVES my point. You had the money - did everyone else?>

 

But what classes/factions/races were not able to take slicing. That's the thing... there are 4 gathering skills. So it would make sense to have 1 character be a slicer since having two gatherers of the same thing would be redundant.

[Zakkana]

Way to take that out of context and ignore the rebuttal I gave right after it.

 

When you resort to name-calling, any point you have to make becomes irrelevant because you had to resort to name-calling.

[Idaho-D]

To the OP.

 

Very simple. If Lockbox missions needed to be nerfed to mostly useless futility, then they were a mistake in the first place and not a feature. Therefore remove the Lockbox missions entirely and replace them with a new mission type. Random recipes related to Cybertech maybe. Something that fits one (or more) of the crafting skills.

 

Nerfing should have the caveat that you are also creating something better for the users in the process.

[Velisael]

No, it actually hasn't.

 

At higher levels there are a ton of Money sinks that are incredibly costly specifically to balance out the Beta's Slicing Enhanced economy.

 

Now Slicing is nerfed but those money sinks are still in.

 

End result is that until you hit lvl 50 and the biggest of those money sinks (Skill buying) falls away, you will be perpetually broke OR not spending credits on anything other than the money sinks.

 

Plus, people say that money going into the economy will 'cause inflation'.

 

This is the case in EVERY MMO, by which I means that in every MMO ever this already happens. Except that usually, as will be the case with TOR now, it's because people who are max level are sending a bunch of the money they make at max level to their lower level Alts who can then easily outbid any non-alt/non-lvl 50 funded players of the same level. Likewise with characters belonging to Guilds who have bunch of max levels who have enough money to spend on buying gear for their lower leveled guildies without being broke instantly themselves.

 

So the idea that Slicing will 'ruin the economy', or at least that idea that only Slicing will ruin the economy, while the natural cycle that every MMO goes through will not is basically BS.

As for the economy getting ruined by too much money? Yeah, but you know what ruins economies even more? Not enough money. When everyone's spending all their money on Money sinks because Devs don't want the economy overflowing and no one has any money left to buy from other players, there is no economy at all.

 

I agree with you completely. But at least now, BioWare in early game has stopped everybody from freeing up one slot in their crew skills to fill it with Slicing. This is something I maintained in one of my initial posts on this issue. They are ensuring that everybody can still "play the game the way they want". This appears to be a big trend with potential GOTY developers. They want to introduce a perception of choice and remove the cookie cutter way of doing things.

 

However I never said Slicing will ruin the economy. I said it will cause inflation, but as you said, this is an eventuality in all MMOs. I just said the concept of something for nothing is broken and is weeded out in all stellar MMOs.

 

With money sinks, there will always be a lot. Consider WoW for example. If you played Vanilla, you would remember the amount of saving and grinding required to get an epic land mount. But its funny, in the general chat of Lord Adraas, people are qq-ing because they will not be able to afford speeder training right at level 25. In vanilla WoW, first mount was at 40, however a first-time player on a brand new server with no experience in the game would have trouble attaining the gold requirement by 40. And then to get an epic mount at 60, most of us were running MC for the first time before we even got the mount. I ask how come this game is supposed to be different? Money sinks exist so you have many goals that will take time to complete. If you can easily complete those goals, then the game's long-term appeal diminishes.

 

But great points!

[ryancwn]

With money sinks, there will always be a lot. Consider WoW for example. If you played Vanilla, you would remember the amount of saving and grinding required to get an epic land mount. But its funny, in the general chat of Lord Adraas, people are qq-ing because they will not be able to afford speeder training right at level 25. In vanilla WoW, first mount was at 40, however a first-time player on a brand new server with no experience in the game would have trouble attaining the gold requirement by 40. And then to get an epic mount at 60, most of us were running MC for the first time before we even got the mount. I ask how come this game is supposed to be different? Money sinks exist so you have many goals that will take time to complete. If you can easily complete those goals, then the game's long-term appeal diminishes.

 

But great points!

 

Any person with enough MMO experience will know that you should not over spend your in game gold on anything unnecessary and those who stick to that rule was able to get mount at lv 40...

[Velisael]

Any person with enough MMO experience will know that you should not over spend your in game gold on anything unnecessary and those who stick to that rule was able to get mount at lv 40...

 

agreed! but from what I see in game chat does not exhibit this knowledge. I do not have slicing, however from scrimping and saving my first char will have the speeder training done at lvl 25.

 

Also I was commenting on the validity of money sinks. I am actually quite happy with them. The whole point is you are poor at the beginning, but with perserverance, patience, and knowledge, you will become rich LOL... Completely away from the slicing issue, there are tons of people complaining about the lack of money and how the economy is flat - 2 WEEKS IN!!! This is a fact in all MMOs at the beginning. If BioWare wanted a vibrant economy to begin with, they could easily just give us pioneers all 1M credits each. That would kick start the economy right? But they don't so we are supposed to be the ones who build it up. It is slow and painful just like for the Tarisian colonists. We might not be able to attain everything in the first month of play. We might not even be able to attain leet-ness in the first 3 months of play. But that is what it's like to be a pioneer. Be proud all, that you may one day be able to claim you started in Vanilla SWTOR and that you know what it was like (assuming SWTOR will have a long enough run to actually designate a period in time called Vanilla SWTOR lol)

Edited December 30, 2011 by Velisael

[OdonKnight]

Hasn't slowed them down yet. They've actually ramped up efforts because now they have a more willing base.

 

 

 

And those mats just magically appeared on the GTN? Some other gatherer had to consciously choose to put them up for sale. That gatherer made the choice to feed someone else's crafting instead of their own.

 

 

 

But what classes/factions/races were not able to take slicing. That's the thing... there are 4 gathering skills. So it would make sense to have 1 character be a slicer since having two gatherers of the same thing would be redundant.

 

<sigh> Everyone gets 2 - two - non-crafting skills. And as there is no LFD allowing everyone to stay on the fleet indefinitely just running dungeons yes, people are collecting items. Those with money can buy them, those with more money can out purchase those with less funds raising overall prices.

 

My point is your are basing your argument on everyone having slicing or an alt who has slicing. Meaning we all have to pack our server with alt chars to feed prime. If we do not, we are royally &^&*() when it comes to trying to compete in the global market (as well as future expansions by BW as if the average person has X funds by Y level they might make decisions based on those figures.

 

Slicing had to be nerfed if only for the click button and make money. Is it perfect? No. Economy is young and will be tweaked.

 

addendum: and where do you think the farmers got their money? Running all around gathering mats to build and then sell oh AH then try n sell the credits? No, poor time versus $$$ ratio. Answer: slicing. It has ramped up now as they have stock - and some buyers are panicking because their money tree has died, some desperate people don't have money and buy anyway.

Edited December 30, 2011 by OdonKnight

[XoChineXo]

No, thats exactly what you do when you run other gathering missions. You know you are wasting money because you can gather twice as many materials in 60 seconds in the open world. You run slicing lockbox missions for the chance to crit. As far as augment missions go, if you don't want them, dont run the mission. Let me show you an example.

 

A bioanalysis mission costs 800 credits to run, returning 600 credits worth of mats.

A slicing mission costs 800 credits to run, returning 600 credits.

 

You can then buy 600 credits worth of mats if you like. So why run either? You shouldn't, unless you are too lazy to farm nodes in the open world. But with slicing you have the chance to get a mission discovery..and with bio you just get more mats. You are actually better off with slicing, because those 600 credits-worth of mats you got, maybe actually be worth 300 or less if the market is saturated. With slicing at least your credits will retain its value..obviously.

 

Oh...you were so close! I fixed it for you...

 

 

A bioanalysis mission costs 800 credits to run, returning a dynamic amount of credits worth of mats [based on the current market value of mats].

A slicing mission costs 800 credits to run, returning a static 600 credits [regardless of market values].

 

1.) You can then buy 600 credits worth of mats if you like [although it may or may not be the same number of mats you would receive if you had bioanalysis and sent your companion on a mission].

 

2.) So why run either since they are both passive ways of leveling a "gathering" skill, one based on market values and the other based on the time value of credits? You shouldn't, unless you are too lazy to farm nodes in the open world of which is an active way of doing the same thing based on the same values.

 

3.) But with slicing you have the chance to get a mission discovery, although; you may receive something less than the current value of the credits you spent in addition to receiving nothing else, of which aggregates with the chance of failure ..and with bio you will always receive something of market value unless you fail

 

4.)You are actually better off with [any gathering skill besides slicing], because those 600 credits-worth of mats you got, maybe actually be worth [less or more as the economy matures]. With slicing at least your credits will [lose it's value over time as the economy matures]..obviously.

 

If you're going to defend the reason for the nerf, please do so properly.

[Illmatikone]

I am a slicer/scavenger/cybernetics crew skiller. I was too late to make any real money on slicing so I don't have much to whine about in terms of being nerfed. I can however say that taking it after the nerf has opened my eyes and made me realize that this skill really doesn't benefit me right now. I would like to say that if what i've been reading about pre-nerf slicing is true, it needed some nerfing at early levels.

 

I've been bouncing the idea around in my head and it's starting to seem like a crew skill for non tradeskillers that gives credits is just a failing concept. The idea of someone getting straight credits at a profit sends everyone into a fury that doesn't have the skill. There seems to be a lack of ability for the majority of people to see that netting a profit in credits on lockbox missions is the same as netting two blue bars of a metal doing UWT. One person gets a cash, the other gets a liquid asset that can either be used by the mission runner, or sold at a profit to other crew skillers (namely slicers!). Maybe people just can't accept it.

 

I was thinking perhaps slicing should be reworked as the primary gathering skill for cybertech. Salvaging is already hit pretty hard by other tradeskills. Why not have slicing nodes return cybertech crafting mats and slicing missions net mats for one and augments for another with a chance for mission or lockboxes on crits. This seems like it would put it in line with other "gathering" professions. It would remove the concept of a way for non tradeskillers to make money through crew skills. But maybe that's the way it needs to be. If you want to make money by not tradeskilling and doing crew skills. Gather mats and sell them on the AH like all the other games.

 

Just my opinions and ideas...

[XoChineXo]

I've been bouncing the idea around in my head and it's starting to seem like a crew skill for non tradeskillers that gives credits is just a failing concept. The idea of someone getting straight credits at a profit sends everyone into a fury that doesn't have the skill. There seems to be a lack of ability for the majority of people to see that netting a profit in credits on lockbox missions is the same as netting two blue bars of a metal doing UWT. One person gets a cash, the other gets a liquid asset that can either be used by the mission runner, or sold at a profit to other crew skillers (namely slicers!). Maybe people just can't accept it.

 

You are very correct here. Except, the concept only failed due to it's implementation, not due to it being a bad idea. Simply reworking the borked lockboxes and implementing a level cap would've helped tremendously. In addition, the problem is not so much acceptance as it is ignorance of basic economic principles by the masses. Most people do not understand the difference between the "time value of money (credits in this case)" and the "dynamic value of tangible assets (mats in this case)".

 

I was thinking perhaps slicing should be reworked as the primary gathering skill for cybertech. Salvaging is already hit pretty hard by other tradeskills. Why not have slicing nodes return cybertech crafting mats and slicing missions net mats for one and augments for another with a chance for mission or lockboxes on crits. This seems like it would put it in line with other "gathering" professions. It would remove the concept of a way for non tradeskillers to make money through crew skills. But maybe that's the way it needs to be. If you want to make money by not tradeskilling and doing crew skills. Gather mats and sell them on the AH like all the other games.

 

This is not a bad idea, although; the slicing could work if implemented with the proper limits.

[PlagaNerezza]

The reason economics in games don't work is because there is a general attitude that you should always have success. In fact most should fail miserably. It should cost a lot to level crafting and a person should reasonably expect to suck at it. Those hardcore and dedicate do have a right to ask Bioware to give them a mechanic to produce the best possible items.

 

Whether crafting the best possible item is profitable is another topic.

 

If Bioware wants to allow you to slice at a reported net loss you can. I know I am leveling slicing to 400 on my smuggler because I want him to be able to slice. I made enough credits off it to do that and I intend to go from 300 to 400 shortly because I like slicing. I like random boxes and slicing maps. I understand though why gathers hate the nerf.

 

I am keeping the skill because if you have an alt on the server you can easily get the other resources you need by just leveling there scavenging skills and sending you what you need to craft your primary professions.

 

Stop QQing and go to other professions that you can use to get loot that sells for more than it costs. Salavaging and UT and Bio.

 

Materials gather and sell/send to your primary.

 

For god sakes level up to get your ship and than you have 2 companions running crafting salavaging for a profit.

 

People whine hard.

[XoChineXo]

The reason economics in games don't work is because there is a general attitude that you should always have success. In fact most should fail miserably. It should cost a lot to level crafting and a person should reasonably expect to suck at it. Those hardcore and dedicate do have a right to ask Bioware to give them a mechanic to produce the best possible items.

 

Economics in some games do work, sometimes too well. Case in point; CCP, makers of EVE Online, has an economy that works so well that they had to hire a full time real world Economist. Guess why! Because a majority of the economy is literally player driven. Unlike MMO's that place large artificial 'money' sinks into their games, EVE's economy allows for more of a natural consumer behavior due to 'real' money sinks ( faucet > different levels of resources > different levels of player crafted in game items > purchased items that can be destroyed > destroyed items > salvage from destroyed items > faucet > repeat). I've kindly linked the Reuters article from 2007 for proof:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/16/us-videogames-economist-life-idUSN0925619220070816