Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Thrage]

we already knew that(as programmers at least)

 

the best solution i can think of is hiring some of the senior developers of hero engine. then this game would be unstoppable.

 

The only question left for BioWare is this.

 

"This is a problem that can be fixed. Do you intend to fix it as soon as possible?"

 

Anything other than "Yes" and I'm out.

[badchx]

A little offtopic, but hope it's okay. Regarding the lack of any real response from BW.

 

/wow-fanboy-in

Just browsing the wow-forum, and saw this thread.

 

Topic: "Your 5.0 Class preview Likes,Dislikes,Errors & wishlist"

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3010643951

 

Post #9. This is how it should be.

 

/wow-fanboy-out

[Snowred]

 

 

and yes, i have some years of WOW experience behind me and responsiveness there is absolutely brilliant. No delays and no frustration. It is not about button smashing in wow but more of "being in touch" of abilities cooldowns versus global cooldowns.

 

 

I really don't know how anyone can say that with a straight face lol WOW is *all* about macroing and button mashing and usually just one or two buttons.... It's refreshing in a strange way to play a game that forces the player to pay attention.

 

But you're right in solo play the delay is ok... it bugged me to begin with because of the games I came from I guess... even in group play I know it's there and now I've learnt to live with it... I hardly notice.

[ajjw]

I really don't know how anyone can say that with a straight face lol WOW is *all* about macroing and button mashing and usually just one or two buttons.... It's refreshing in a strange way to play a game that forces the player to pay attention.

 

But you're right in solo play the delay is ok... it bugged me to begin with because of the games I came from I guess... even in group play I know it's there and now I've learnt to live with it... I hardly notice.

You were not playing optimally if you made use of 2 buttons. My Warlock had over 46 keybinds of which 38 were used regularly during a Boss encounter. Stop spreading misinformation.

[Light_Valkyrie]

i honestly do not see the problem. clipping doesn't occur in real life, nor star wars. being able to clip an animation seems hokey, cheap, and unrealistic to me. that being said i have not had any problems with delay, certain animations i have been able to cancel through and carry out another ability. if everyone has to watch the animation, then what is the problem? it's not giving anyone any unfair advantages. i really wish the QQing would end, this isn't WoW.

 

you can also click on your next attack before it lights up and it's activated as soon as the last animation is finished.

 

 

Get out of this thread.

 

Your right it isnt wow, but it should control at least as good not subpar piece of poo.

[Rialth]

Thank You for adding and contributing this. Incidentally when I was watching this video, I was holding my nephew's new puppy! (Christmas Present). I raged so hard that I snapped it's neck and threw it across the room...

 

Suffice it to say, I am no longer welcoming in my cousin's home... the child is traumatized it appears.

 

 

 

Either way, thank you for the video -- added to OP

 

So your saying that until this issue if fixed your going to indiscriminately kill small animals?

 

You heard that BioWare fix this fast.

 

Edit: This thread should be stickied.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Rialth

[Triskil]

/bump I still care about this issue.

[jtype_sw]

thank you for adding and contributing this. Incidentally when i was watching this video, i was holding my nephew's new puppy! (christmas present). I raged so hard that i snapped it's neck and threw it across the room...

 

Suffice it to say, i am no longer welcoming in my cousin's home... The child is traumatized it appears.

 

 

 

Either way, thank you for the video -- added to op

 

Haha

Edited January 2, 2012 by jtype_sw

[Xcore]

The last count I saw showed sales had reached the 2.5 million mark. I have no idea if thisa is true, so lets use BW's number and say there over 1 million players. If this is true, then yes those on this thread would represent a very very very small percentage of the player base.

 

The views of forum posters statistically are a percentage of overall population (Increasing incrementally). Having said that, I don't expect you to understand as you've proven your intellect in your first post, nonetheless I will attempt to elaborate.

 

If 2.5million players play the game, 5-10% of those post on the forums, that is 250,000 people posting.

 

Assuming these (generous) figures, and realizing how "INCREDIBLY" well supported this thread is (One of the biggest since forums were brought up in 2008), it is "very" safe to assume that the views expressed here are far greater than 10-20 p***ed off people.

 

The above is just a way to understand that the argument of "minority posting on forums" is nonsensical because that minority is a statistical representation of the views of the "non-posters".

 

 

Moving on to part 2 of your failure to comprehend basic logic:

 

The issue raised here is spanning SW:TOR, AoC, LotRO, AoC, EQ2, Rift and "just about ANY OTHER MMO" that exists/has existed (barring few exceptions). This means, that the issue raised is "very important". Many cannot even express it and simply say "clunky feeling", the point I am establishing is that there may only be "say 5,000" of us (though I wager its more by the viewcount) expressing this issue here. However, there are "hundreds of thousands" who cannot express this issue but feel it all the same.

 

 

 

In conclusion good sir/madam,

 

Your inability to see/experience/re-create/realize/understand and comprehend the discussed topic, makes it no less "real". I think an analogy of "Understanding Quantum Physics" is appropriate to your case:

 

You cannot understand/comprehend/see/experience/re-create or realize Quantum Physics, yet to discount it would be intellectual suicide as you cannot discount it, because you lack the qualifications to do so. Much as you lack the qualifications to discount the Ability Lag... (if you know what I mean).

 

I urge you in all honesty to reconsider, read the thread(s) and attempt to be more open to this topic.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xcore

[Xcore]

It definitely is a programming issue.

 

Fortunately, it does not appear to be a limitation of the game engine, based on the HeroEngine wiki.

 

Unfortunately, the game itself does appear to be programmed entirely incorrectly, and it is going to be a royal ***** to fix.

 

Is there a reason why we have to analyse and evolve our understanding of this entire ordeal ourselves through this kind of research and Georg or a Team Member doesn't just f****** communicate it?

 

Is there fear of what? replies/misconceptions? give me a break, the people involved in this thread are fairly intelligent and as such an intelligent two-way communication "could" be attempted.

 

Thanks for the details on the Engine though.

[HoneyBoy]

Big thanks to everyone who contributed to proving this issue exists in this thread. If there are any nonbelievers at this point, then they're nothing more than people are either unfamiliar with how smooth WoW is or some kind of "NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THIS GAME" apologist.

[Xcore]

A little offtopic, but hope it's okay. Regarding the lack of any real response from BW.

 

/wow-fanboy-in

Just browsing the wow-forum, and saw this thread.

 

Topic: "Your 5.0 Class preview Likes,Dislikes,Errors & wishlist"

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3010643951

 

Post #9. This is how it should be.

 

/wow-fanboy-out

 

 

Nakatoir

Community

 

Hey there, I am Nakatoir, and I heavily approve of this thread *Thumbs up*. This is incredibly constructive feedback and I like where this is going, keep up the great feedback guys ^^

#9

 

25/11/2011

 

 

This is the reason Blizzard was so far ahead, continues to be ahead and will stay ahead for a very long time. I'm looking forward to Titan as I believe there is more stability in Blizzard than EA/Bioware for the simple reason above....

 

Developer's/Community Manager's/Official's posting on forums has a positive Psychological effect, not like that matters much around here.

 

/endobservationalrant

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xcore

[bountywookies]

Sorry, swg's reason it failed is not due to character unresponsiveness, its because of the nge. When nge hit so many people left the game.

[P-Funk]

The views of forum posters statistically a percentage of overall population (Increasing incrementally). Having said that, I don't expect you to understand as you've proven your intellect in your first post, nonetheless I will attempt to elaborate.

 

If 2.5million players play the game, 5-10% of those post on the forums, that is 250,000 people posting.

 

Assuming these (generous) figures, and realizing how "INCREDIBLY" well supported this thread is (One of the biggest since forums were brought up in 2008), it is "very" safe to assume that the views expressed here are far greater than 10-20 p***ed off people.

 

The above is just a way to understand that the argument of "minority posting on forums" is nonsensical because that minority is a statistical representation of the views of the "non-posters".

 

 

Moving on to part 2 of your failure to comprehend basic logic:

 

The issue raised here is spanning SW:TOR, AoC, LotRO, AoC, EQ2, Rift and "just about ANY OTHER MMO" that exists/has existed (barring few exceptions). This means, that the issue raised is "very important". Many cannot even express it and simply say "clunky feeling", the point I am establishing is that there may only be "say 5,000" of us (though I wager its more by the viewcount) expressing this issue here. However, there are "hundreds of thousands" who cannot express this issue but feel it all the same.

 

 

 

In conclusion good sir/madam,

 

Your inability to see/experience/re-create/realize/understand and comprehend the discussed topic, makes it no less "real". I think an analogy of "Understanding Quantum Physics" is appropriate to your case:

 

You cannot understand/comprehend/see/experience/re-create or realize Quantum Physics, yet to discount it would be intellectual suicide as you cannot discount it, because you lack the qualifications to do so. Much as you lack the qualifications to discount the Ability Lag... (if you know what I mean).

 

I urge you in all honesty to reconsider, read the thread(s) and attempt to be more open to this topic.

You still don't address the contention that those who feel its a problem will seek to express their dissatisfaction far more than those who do not. Its not like people are making threads and supporting them saying 'I don't think this is a problem' or 'I am not unhappy'. Therefore the online representation of this issue is a distorted statistic since a higher percentage of those posting would be those who have the issue.

 

And lets say that 250k people are on these forums. How many are posting here? How many who come onto the forums are those who are actually unhappy? Generally those who are happy don't feel the need to post as often as those who are. This suggests to me, in a logical way, that using pure % of posters in this thread as a guideline for extrapolating the overall level of unhappiness is not in any way empirical.

 

If 1 in 1000 people are unhappy about something and yet the vast majority of those 1 of 1000 go out of their way to congregate in one area you can't say 'look, more than 300 in 1000 are complaining about this, therefore roughly 1/3 of all people are unhappy'. That is the reason people say its a vocal minority that gives a greater sense of scale to the issue than really exists as a pure % of the overall population.

 

I'm not here to discuss the merits of the issue, but I do disagree with your condescending inference of logic. The only way to really suss out an accurate sample of how all players feel would be if Bioware had a one time questionnaire pop up on every account as they log in asking for a yes, no, unsure answer to the question of whether this issue bothers you.

 

Statistics can be spun in many ways so just saying 'look at the numbers here' means nothing. Mark Twain once popularized this Benjamen Disreali quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

[Shockington]

This is the number one problem with the game as is.

[Xcore]

You still don't address the contention that those who feel its a problem will seek to express their dissatisfaction far more than those who do not. Its not like people are making threads and supporting them saying 'I don't think this is a problem' or 'I am not unhappy'. Therefore the online representation of this issue is a distorted statistic since a higher percentage of those posting would be those who have the issue.

 

And lets say that 250k people are on these forums. How many are posting here? How many who come onto the forums are those who are actually unhappy? Generally those who are happy don't feel the need to post as often as those who are. This suggests to me, in a logical way, that using pure % of posters in this thread as a guideline for extrapolating the overall level of unhappiness is not in any way empirical.

 

If 1 in 1000 people are unhappy about something and yet the vast majority of those 1 of 1000 go out of their way to congregate in one area you can't say 'look, more than 300 in 1000 are complaining about this, therefore roughly 1/3 of all people are unhappy'. That is the reason people say its a vocal minority that gives a greater sense of scale to the issue than really exists as a pure % of the overall population.

 

I'm not here to discuss the merits of the issue, but I do disagree with your condescending inference of logic. The only way to really suss out an accurate sample of how all players feel would be if Bioware had a one time questionnaire pop up on every account as they log in asking for a yes, no, unsure answer to the question of whether this issue bothers you.

 

Statistics can be spun in many ways so just saying 'look at the numbers here' means nothing. Mark Twain once popularized this Benjamen Disreali quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

 

The difference is that this issue is hard to define, many more people will quit over this than this thread leads to believe. That is the whole crux of the entire argument. It doesn't matter if I alone post in this thread, 1000 people post in this thread or 100,000 post in this thread.

 

The issue expressed is still going to cause the failure of this game in the same way it did with Rift/LotRO etc etc. (any game after WoW).

 

I merely tried to point it out in a more elaborate way, but it is simply essential to realize that it does not matter how many people respond/approve or care about this thread. The results will be the same, regardless.

 

Most will never have seen this thread, will never have replied here... they'll just quit because "something vaguely doesn't feel right, I can't tell what... but Ima go back to WoW because it feels right"... "this is too clunky" etc.

[StarOnEarth]

This is causing me so much frustration in pvp with my Sentinel.

What ends up happening when i force leap in is that half the time i fire my off gdc dot ability and other half my focus gaining ability. I want to fire them at the same time but usually i just seem to stand there watching my enemy run away as i try to figure out why my next ability isnt firing because lack of focus.

[Xcore]

This is a "vocal minority" because a vast majority of the percentage of people perceiving (and bothered by) this issue "CANNOT" express it and simply leaves...

 

This is no mystery.

[Putok]

Ive read what a very small few are calling an "ability-delay" or lack of responsiveness in combat. I've tried to recreate the issue and can't. Im not sure there is any ability-dalay whatsoever; however there may be a "learn-to-play" issue. This is not meant to be argumentive so please keep it civil. What I mean is that some are really used to just button smashing combat (WoW), or being able to queue abilities (LOTRO), and are missing one of the neatest features of SWTOR: The Combat.

 

In this game, to maximize your damage, you really need to focus on your character and watch their swing (Im speaking as a Marauder here). You CAN NOT start another swing until your last one finishes. This is not "ability-delay" this is actually having a game that is trying to move the genre away from button smashing and into something a little more logical. Watch your toon and time your swings -- works great and is much more fluid than a simple button smasher style combat. I love it!

 

I for one hope they change nothing about the combat system. The combat is the most fun I have had in an MMO and I have played the majority of them.

 

I also hope they realize only a very small, vocal minority, are complaining and leave it alone.

 

Let me know when my toon's animations offer proper visual feedback for all of my abilities, or accurately reflect what I'm doing, and you'll have a point. I have to stare at my hotbar and buffbar more in this game than I do in WoW, because visual and audio indicators of procs are vastly superior in that game.

 

I have to button mash MORE playing TOR, because of the lack of feedback and response in many situations. Unfortunately, I also don't get to look at those pretty animations as much as I'd like, because a combination of clunkyness, poor UI, and poor feedback force me to spend an inordinate amount of time looking at my hotbars and tiny buffbar if I want to maximize my performance.

[indelible]

I just read through the OP, and whoever that "pro" gamer was is talking out of his rear end. The issue really isn't as pronounced as he makes out, and all of the "omgtheyrippedoffwow" comments he makes just goes to show how little he knows about what he's talking about.

 

I'd challenge him to talk to some of our guys about the game with any degree of weight behind his words. He seems intent on slating it to no end, including gross exaggerations of the problems at hand.

 

Poor form, sir.

[MrTijger]

This is a "vocal minority" because a vast majority of the percentage of people perceiving (and bothered by) this issue "CANNOT" express it and simply leaves...

 

This is no mystery.

 

No, its not a mystery, its an opinion, would you care to provide any substantion for it or are we just supposed to take your opinion as fact?

[Xcore]

I just read through the OP, and whoever that "pro" gamer was is talking out of his rear end. The issue really isn't as pronounced as he makes out, and all of the "omgtheyrippedoffwow" comments he makes just goes to show how little he knows about what he's talking about.

 

I'd challenge him to talk to some of our guys about the game with any degree of weight behind his words. He seems intent on slating it to no end, including gross exaggerations of the problems at hand.

 

Poor form, sir.

 

Yes it is, that pronounced... you simply aren't on his level of perceiving the environment and game world to be qualified to judge it to that degree. How can you be so dense? Your reaction time is Double (at least) of his, your APM is less than half of his... who are you to even make such a "horrendously" obnoxious claim.

 

Show some respect and come back to earth... your APM is too low, your Reaction Time is too High. Accept it, improve if you care... enjoy other aspects (Story etc.) if you don't. But don't be so ignorant to discount the views of someone far advanced in this matter...

[Xcore]

No, its not a mystery, its an opinion, would you care to provide any substantion for it or are we just supposed to take your opinion as fact?

 

.................................................................................. YOU STILL NEED PROOF????

 

 

Dear god sir,

 

Have you not read the OP? AT ALL? Have you not read 3 Threads worth of this discussed? Pick your proof... how is this "opinion" anymore?!

 

 

This is no more opinion that the Theory of Evolution is. I say to you MrTijger (lol), there is NO MISSING LINK, there is a line of links clearly visible... more coming all the time. There cannot be a "Crocoduck" that is not how it works, you are not understanding the subject enough to make these claims.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xcore

[P-Funk]

The difference is that this issue is hard to define, many more people will quit over this than this thread leads to believe. That is the whole crux of the entire argument. It doesn't matter if I alone post in this thread, 1000 people post in this thread or 100,000 post in this thread.

 

The issue expressed is still going to cause the failure of this game in the same way it did with Rift/LotRO etc etc. (any game after WoW).

 

I merely tried to point it out in a more elaborate way, but it is simply essential to realize that it does not matter how many people respond/approve or care about this thread. The results will be the same, regardless.

 

Most will never have seen this thread, will never have replied here... they'll just quit because "something vaguely doesn't feel right, I can't tell what... but Ima go back to WoW because it feels right"... "this is too clunky" etc.

 

You're getting off point. You're countering my reply by talking about subjective unproven 'facts' such as how "This will kill the game" and "many more will quit thank this thread leads to believe" etc. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the very basic notion of using the popularity of this thread as an affirmative argument through some measure of rough % of players extrapolated from % posting here.

 

You are going in little circles using unsubstantiated opinion to back up your statement which you pass off as fact, and you did it condescendingly I might add.

 

I'll break down what I'm saying:

 

1. You say that you believe that this issue will lead to the death of the game if unfixed <-- Unsubstantiated opinion (can't see the future)

 

2. You support your point or counter detractors of your point by saying that in fact this thread IS representative of the overall mood of the game population when I am saying that the nature of complaints means that a disproportionate % will be represented by those who are unhappy rather than happy. <-- Challenged as untrue by my point and others

 

3. You counter 2. by saying that it doesn't really matter because 1. is true and will kill the game no matter how you choose to perceive the thread's representation of the overall population <-- Circular logic that is again opinion and impossible to substantiate

 

You cannot say in any definitive way that this will kill the game. Its YOURS and others' opinions that this is a game killing fact, if unfixed. For sure those who post here who say its terminal for them will likely quit, but that does not prove anything as nobody can see the future, nobody knows for sure.

 

Ultimately I'm only contesting your argument that this thread is an affirmative representation of the community's feelings when its just not possible to gather any empirical data from it. You can only be sure what those who are unhappy who post feel. You cannot prove any measure of overall wider % of unhappiness over it. Logic suggests that in fact you should underestimate conservatively the overall feeling based on this thread AT THIS MOMENT.

 

Its too early to measure accurately the feeling on this, you can't really gather any factual statistics until you get to a point when you can count active subs and cancellations AFTER the free 30 days as many who will quit will keep their cards active just to run out their already purchased time.

Edited January 2, 2012 by P-Funk

[indelible]

The difference is that this issue is hard to define, many more people will quit over this than this thread leads to believe. That is the whole crux of the entire argument. It doesn't matter if I alone post in this thread, 1000 people post in this thread or 100,000 post in this thread.

 

The issue expressed is still going to cause the failure of this game in the same way it did with Rift/LotRO etc etc. (any game after WoW).

 

I merely tried to point it out in a more elaborate way, but it is simply essential to realize that it does not matter how many people respond/approve or care about this thread. The results will be the same, regardless.

 

Most will never have seen this thread, will never have replied here... they'll just quit because "something vaguely doesn't feel right, I can't tell what... but Ima go back to WoW because it feels right"... "this is too clunky" etc.

 

I think that's a rather arrogant outlook you have there.

 

From the conversations I've had in the game with actual players, as well as conversations I've had with a number of people on various forums... the problem is not as pronounced as you'd like to peddle it as being. I think that you have a big problem with the system at hand and you want to convince people that it is as big a problem as you make it out to be, in the hopes that you get the changes you want, which you feel will better the game. I'm not attempting to brand you as some horrid troll, or loud-mouthed elitist. I'm just pointing out how it appears.

 

I also think you're discounting the forum community without actually considering to any degree what you are talking about. It DOES matter how many people view this thread, and it does matter what they post in it. It's clearly a good representation of the player base at any given time, invariably representing the more prominent feelings of the community as a whole... even if the majority of that community don't voice their opinions. If 10 people make threads like this, and 1000 people respond saying they don't have an issue with the system at hand... the outcome will be weighted to a degree by the feedback received in the provided thread. Point: the things you claim don't matter, do matter. Having worked in Community Management for similar project to TOR I can tell you that such things matter a GREAT deal. Of course this thread isn't going to be weighted more than... let's say... metric picked up by the back end tools, or by player reports in game, or by QA tester reports... but it still has a great deal of bearing.

 

I think I must point out that I'm not disagreeing that there isn't a problem. Bioware have even gone so far as to acknowledge that they're looking at it to see what they can do. The animation clipping, for a start, would be a good addition... and the rest can be dealt with on an as is basis.

 

I would say however that your original point was sensationalist in nature, and it does no one any favours fictionalising real problems in the way you did.