Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[partyn]

This is a Major issue. It has kept me from playing pvp at all after my first match. Just seems "like sticky glue on the keyboard".

 

It is good to know that the devs are looking into this and I pray that this will be fixed as I can not stand another minute of WoW.

[asbalana]

......Please you need to understand that "scrubs", "noobs", "newbies", "newcomers" will have a hard time understanding this issue because their game play is slow, bad, unskilled etc... But for us experienced players (most of the community are former MMORPG players with tons of exp) it will be a huge problem and ofc it will ruin our experience in-game OVERALL......

 

I am an average player who will never be on the list of greats and I see the issue very clearly. Yesterday I ran Esseles on a Trooper alt. It was painful. Spells misfired, spells cast after the gcd was over and ability bar was lit had delays before they activated. At points trying to cast while straffing was an adventure. As bad as the problem is in solo play, you can work around it, but in group play it is really bad. You feel that you are letting the group down because you can't function and play your part.

 

Yes I have played WOW and the only thing that I liked about the game was the combat system. But I am a noob at heart. This is an issue that affects everyone. The only difference between the top tier well experienced players and noobs newbies and newcomers is that the top guys/gals can understand and verbalize why game play does not feel good. The rest just know that it does not feel good although they can't put their finger on why.

 

I can't speak to whether this will make or break swtor, but believe that it will cost the game a great many subs and result in a great deal of lost revenue for EA/BW. It will cost the loss of most of the top tier players who although small in number contribute a lot to the game and community.

 

The game still has a lot of bugs. LOL, yesterday a level 17 player asked for help with a boss in general. I responded with my 26 JC Shadow. We fought the boss and he was killed quickly but I got the boss to 0 health and the thing still kept fighting. That went on for ten minutes and the boss just kept on with 0 health and would not drop. I told the person that I was trying to help that the instance was bugged and that he should just move on. No big deal (one bugged quest out of thousands that will be fixed eventually). But the combat system problems are a prime big deal. They need to be given top priority with communication to the community and be fixed post haste. Otherwise people will start leaving the game. It will be a real shame because most of the people who end up leaving really like the game and want to play, but find it not playable because of the combat issue.

 

To the OP, I think that BW owes you big time. You have identified and described a problem and forced their attention to it. BW is much better off facing this right now than rather seeing subs drop and somewhere down the line when it is way to late identifying why.

[brevous]

So you are suggesting There is not enough "power" for each server to run correctly when heavy populated?

 

How about warzones? how did warzones feel on the lower popualted server?

 

I'm just stating my experience. I did not have a chance to do any warzones or anything fun like that. I have only played a smuggler and agent each to lvl 9.

[Khoranth]

I am not sarcastic when I say that I'm happy you can live with it. However, I would like you to read my overview of the entire issue/thread (link in OP) because to you I'd address: Even if you "can live with it", DON'T! Because the only way to make the Genre as a whole, developers and even players understand this constant issue (across so many MMOs) is to "raise" your demand of quality.

 

Also, I should mention that the problem itself is exasperated the higher end you get in both PvE and PvP. To a casual player, it may not even be noticeable -- To a Professional Gamer with a .4-5 reaction time average, well its unplayable completely.

 

You would think after warhammer and so many other failed MMO's with sluggish controls, that we would not need to make bioware aware of this issue.

 

Bioware had serious gamers beta test the game, tell them about this issue, and they ignored them. How could any developer of a new MMORPG at this point not realize unresponsive slug controls will make your game a disaaster?

[lenonk]

In addition to this, has anyone else noticed their target changing randomly? Often, I'll target my companion on my Sorcerer and cast my shield, or even a heal on him, and the spell will hit me instead.

 

Also, several times the other day I was in the middle of DPSing one mob while having an elite crowd controlled, and suddenly I'd be casting on the Elite.

[Zironic]

You would think after warhammer and so many other failed MMO's with sluggish controls, that we would not need to make bioware aware of this issue.

 

Bioware had serious gamers beta test the game, tell them about this issue, and they ignored them. How could any developer of a new MMORPG at this point not realize unresponsive slug controls will make your game a disaaster?

 

Well, once you're in BETA it's usually to late. It's really up to the Alpha testers and QA department to beat the designers over their heads with sticks when issues like these come up. Beta usually means you're feature complete and just polishing bugs, the source of this is really a core design flaw.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Zironic

[sdream]

I want it to be fixed, but until then it really doe snot affect me that much. I know going into a fight it's not, 1, 2, 3, .... 4. It's 1.., 2.., 3.., .......4 and really it can mean lifer and death if I had been able to squeeze in 1-2 more skills into my rotation. But most battles are not that close, even in PVP.

 

I know this is my personal experience. And I do not apply it to you. But I am posting this for the devs to see. a tiny portion of the community (Just me?) Finds this to be almost a non-issue.

 

I hear ya! It's not nearly as bad in solo situation and I can't even time every action perfectly (especially on melee characters) but in a group situation it gets frustrating, when I try to perform to the best of my abilities. We should be fighting mindless mob and other players, not the game itself

[Xcore]

I am an average player who will never be on the list of greats and I see the issue very clearly. Yesterday I ran Esseles on a Trooper alt. It was painful. Spells misfired, spells cast after the gcd was over and ability bar was lit had delays before they activated. At points trying to cast while straffing was an adventure. As bad as the problem is in solo play, you can work around it, but in group play it is really bad. You feel that you are letting the group down because you can't function and play your part.

 

Yes I have played WOW and the only thing that I liked about the game was the combat system. But I am a noob at heart. This is an issue that affects everyone. The only difference between the top tier well experienced players and noobs newbies and newcomers is that the top guys/gals can understand and verbalize why game play does not feel good. The rest just know that it does not feel good although they can't put their finger on why.

 

I can't speak to whether this will make or break swtor, but believe that it will cost the game a great many subs and result in a great deal of lost revenue for EA/BW. It will cost the loss of most of the top tier players who although small in number contribute a lot to the game and community.

 

The game still has a lot of bugs. LOL, yesterday a level 17 player asked for help with a boss in general. I responded with my 26 JC Shadow. We fought the boss and he was killed quickly but I got the boss to 0 health and the thing still kept fighting. That went on for ten minutes and the boss just kept on with 0 health and would not drop. I told the person that I was trying to help that the instance was bugged and that he should just move on. No big deal (one bugged quest out of thousands that will be fixed eventually). But the combat system problems are a prime big deal. They need to be given top priority with communication to the community and be fixed post haste. Otherwise people will start leaving the game. It will be a real shame because most of the people who end up leaving really like the game and want to play, but find it not playable because of the combat issue.

 

To the OP, I think that BW owes you big time. You have identified and described a problem and forced their attention to it. BW is much better off facing this right now than rather seeing subs drop and somewhere down the line when it is way to late identifying why.

 

Asabalana,

 

I've enjoyed your posts in the previous thread (Thread 2, I don't believe you were in 1) and I'd like to really thank you and point out that anyone not experiencing this problem or has doubts about it, needs to read this post.

 

You may consider yourself just an average player but your awareness and understanding is above average I believe. This is aided greatly by your "objectivity" to the subject, the game and the company itself. I don't think there are praises high enough to recognize how important your post that I quoted is...

 

Everyone should read it, because no matter what opinion you're of and champion, this is simple, objective, refreshing truth.

 

I would like to add your above post to the OP, it helps greatly.

 

 

 

Thank you for the kind words at the end as well, it is appreciated. A lot of people have contributed to this and to the awareness raising but thank you very much, it always feels good to hear something like that

 

I should say my opinion regarding your post really is separate from your kind words to me

 

 

P.S.: I recommend reading the OP on the Rift Forums posted by another person near the end of Thread 2.

 

 

Edits: Exasperated -> separate

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xcore

[Xcore]

You would think after warhammer and so many other failed MMO's with sluggish controls, that we would not need to make bioware aware of this issue.

 

Bioware had serious gamers beta test the game, tell them about this issue, and they ignored them. How could any developer of a new MMORPG at this point not realize unresponsive slug controls will make your game a disaaster?

 

Likely ignored because people in the office didn't understand the issue and were busy backpatting each other on creating a great game.

[Xcore]

In addition to this, has anyone else noticed their target changing randomly? Often, I'll target my companion on my Sorcerer and cast my shield, or even a heal on him, and the spell will hit me instead.

 

Also, several times the other day I was in the middle of DPSing one mob while having an elite crowd controlled, and suddenly I'd be casting on the Elite.

 

Targeting is a very serious issue as well and it needs to be fixed but I did not speak of it nor the camera auto-follow permanency issue because it is no-where nearly as important as the issue raised in this thread.

[Xcore]

Zironic and Sdream, thank you for being part of the discussion. Your insights are very valuable and on the money as well as very well expressed. Georg/Bioware, please pay special attention.

[Rialth]

I have to admit this needs to be fixed first above all else.

 

It feels to me as if the NPC's actions have priority over mine.

 

I open fire on a group of NPC's, they react to my action then my action goes off. I noticed this back in beta playing a Bounty Hunter.

 

Now I'm playing my Jedi Guardian with Kira at my side I'll have an enemy almost killed and Kira will take the last blow because her actions seem to over right my own.

 

Hopefully BioWare can fix this before to long. Keep working on it please.

[Farcolder]

Posting also to agree with the necessity to fix this issue. Making the controls responsive and providing much more UI customization should be top priority right now, or this will fall short of a monumental game imo.

 

Wow lacks story, lacks immersion, has a crappy community, often consists of sitting in cities in DF queues, can essentially now be played without a guild or group of friends.

 

Why is it so popular? Simple: gameplay.

 

Story will only get you so far, smooth gameplay in endgame is paramount for longevity of an MMO.

 

This is not KOTOR 3, its an MMO, gameplay is the most important foundation to build a successful MMO around, such as the addition of the amazing VO in this game, but the foundation is problematic right now.

[salvadorellama]

BW says they are investigating and working on it.

 

Not much to discuss.

[brevous]

I have to admit this needs to be fixed first above all else.

 

It feels to me as if the NPC's actions have priority over mine.

 

I open fire on a group of NPC's, they react to my action then my action goes off. I noticed this back in beta playing a Bounty Hunter.

 

Now I'm playing my Jedi Guardian with Kira at my side I'll have an enemy almost killed and Kira will take the last blow because her actions seem to over right my own.

 

Hopefully BioWare can fix this before to long. Keep working on it please.

 

Yes, thank you for putting it into words.

 

1. I find a group of baddies

2. I take cover near them, they have not aggro'd me yet

3. I use an ability with a cast time

4. The second my button is pressed (my character is starting to 'aim) the mobs aggro

5. I take damage first/have my ability cancelled/countered despite "sneaking" up and attacking first.

 

Sorry to derail, but this is a big issue as well.

[Etravex]

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that a game like WoW was created that revolutionized character response by emphasizing instantaneous control. This was an essential asset to include in WoW where the focus was on cause-and-effect battle. Meaning, that both in PvP and PvE it was essential to "respond" to the actions of your enemy. Whether it be silencing, stunning, snaring, etc... you had control of your character and had to calculate the precise time to execute your counter abilities or it was game over.

 

Now, I love Bioware and all the games they've produced (I've played almost every one), but when Bioware sought out a similar cause -and-effect battle system (much like WoWs) in which timing is crucial they needed to put the priority on Casting Times and GCDs not on animations. If they wanted to put the emphasis on animations and the beautification of choreographed battles then they should not have included utility and control based abilities.

 

Another issue that has been thoroughly tested for validity is pre-ability delay. When you hit the button it happens a fraction of a second later. Coupled with the above mentioned problems and you have one frustrating game for those who are competitive PvE and PvP players.

 

Like I said before, Unfortunately WoW set the foundation for the cause-and-effect battle system. If Bioware is going to attain a longstanding competitive PvE and PvP title for years to come then they must: fix the pre-ability delay, clip animations when necessary, and only trigger GCD when an ability has successfully executed. I believe these fixes are integral to SWTOR's success.

[lenonk]

Yes, thank you for putting it into words.

 

1. I find a group of baddies

2. I take cover near them, they have not aggro'd me yet

3. I use an ability with a cast time

4. The second my button is pressed (my character is starting to 'aim) the mobs aggro

5. I take damage first/have my ability cancelled/countered despite "sneaking" up and attacking first.

 

Sorry to derail, but this is a big issue as well.

 

^^ This. I also meant to point out this issue but got sidetracked with the complexity of the other issues being discussed here.

[Xcore]

BW says they are investigating and working on it.

 

Not much to discuss.

 

You couldn't be more mistaken...

[JonnyBigBoss]

I'm canceling my subscription for now. Gameplay >>> everything else and this game's gameplay is par at best.

[Lionerd]

BW says they are investigating and working on it.

 

Not much to discuss.

 

When BW wiil say that the issue its resolved we have not much to discuss

[Darth_Bond]

@ OP, well done this is an awsome thread.

[Isgarot]

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that a game like WoW was created that revolutionized character response by emphasizing instantaneous control. This was an essential asset to include in WoW where the focus was on cause-and-effect battle. Meaning, that both in PvP and PvE it was essential to "respond" to the actions of your enemy. Whether it be silencing, stunning, snaring, etc... you had control of your character and had to calculate the precise time to execute your counter abilities or it was game over.

 

Now, I love Bioware and all the games they've produced (I've played almost every one), but when Bioware sought out a similar cause -and-effect battle system (much like WoWs) in which timing is crucial they needed to put the priority on Casting Times and GCDs not on animations. If they wanted to put the emphasis on animations and the beautification of choreographed battles then they should not have included utility and control based abilities.

 

Another issue that has been thoroughly tested for validity is pre-ability delay. When you hit the button it happens a fraction of a second later. Coupled with the above mentioned problems and you have one frustrating game for those who are competitive PvE and PvP players.

 

Like I said before, Unfortunately WoW set the foundation for the cause-and-effect battle system. If Bioware is going to attain a longstanding competitive PvE and PvP title for years to come then they must: fix the pre-ability delay, clip animations when necessary, and only trigger GCD when an ability has successfully executed. I believe these fixes are integral to SWTOR's success.

 

100% agree

[Vialator]

This is going to be a major thing to overhaul- I have a few chars now in this game- all around the 30ish lvl and they all have ability's with this issues.

 

especially healing- which I guess is why the game lacks healers. They getting stick for groups wiping due to this .

[Shellshock]

I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.

 

 

1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.

 

2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.

 

3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.

 

Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.

 

As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.

 

I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.

 

I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.

[Xcore]

I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.

 

 

1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.

 

2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.

 

3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.

 

Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.

 

As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.

 

I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.

 

I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.

 

Yes, essentially this is the major part of it all. You have a good grasp of it. I would like to add the factor of "illusion" that WoW adds through Client/Server Sync that makes it feel more fluid. A very good poster near the beginning of Thread 2 to touched upon this.

 

Its a bit hard to explain but the point is that everything in WoW is a bit delayed by perhaps .2-.4 seconds or so. However, this goes for everyone "and" UI response as well as Sound and Animation/Ability Effects as well as Damage are calculated to be precisely in sync with this delay.

 

I think a good example given is, when the WoW Server "hics up" and lags for whatever reason, your instant casts don't fire off at all but you remain visually casting it etc.

 

This is the one thing that still gives me some trouble understanding but I think it is crucially important to the "Feeling" of responsiveness.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xcore