Please introduce dual spec ASAP

[Griminal]

False. It's why you play MMO's ... it's certainly not why I play mmos, or some other people play MMOs.

 

Yahtzee had a really good comment on that attitude in his wow review.

 

Note, I agree that putting in dual spec would do nothing to the game but make those who'll use it happy, and those who don't use it and aren't affected by it in any way unhappy. But since the latter are being totally irrational, I'm not really concerned about them.

 

Ok so I over stated it. It's still an incredibly important part. The fact remains that his analogy is terrible.I'm guessing you missed it

 

Obviously BW doesn't see not being able to respec that big of a problem, or else they wouldn't have put the feature in the game, would have made it cost way more for respecs, and wouldn't have made it reset. My point remains.

[Monterone]

Dual Spec was introduced to the MMORPG genre - April 14th, 2009. For 15 years prior to that it did not exist. MMO's were better prior to 2009. Dual Spec was a mistake made in this industry, not an advancement.

 

Sure - it makes things more conveinent. sure it makes things faster. It also makes the game feel less epic. It also lessens your identity with your role/character. It also lessens your need to interact outside of your own little social bubbles.

 

Now that is a valid argument, I like seeing actual thought out posts.

 

However, as for the first paragraph, you're a bit off. I've had dual spec as far as back as 2007 in EQ2. It is quite possible someone else had it even earlier. Dual spec is nothing new in MMOs or RPGs.

[Dendore]

No.....

[silkforcalde]

I still want to see some of the pro dual-spec people come up with a good explanation why dual-spec is different than dual-AC.

 

Both lead to different play styles/abilities/etc. I can't see how you logically can be pro dual-spec, anti dual-AC. Of course it's fine to assume the pro dual-spec, pro dual-AC position but I would argue that it waters down the classes and choices (which I'm not the first one to point out though).

 

Let me put it this way: you are an 8 man operation running guild. You have two tanks because some fights require two tanks. But not all fights do. In fact, some fights don't even require tanks at all. If you do not have two tanks for the two tank fights, you will not complete the fight. If you have two tanks on the one or zero tank fights, you will hit the enrage and not complete the fight.

 

As it stands, there are two options: let your offtank get a dps set and wait on him to respec in between fights or sit your offtank. This is why we need dual spec, because hybrid roles are not required for every fight and it's not fair to make players sit out of fights because their role isn't required.

 

Dual spec is mandatory unless every fight requires 2 tanks.

[Radiohex]

Again, I don't understand all this stuff about commitment and "roll identity". Those arguments against respecing altogether, not dual-specing. Respec is already in the game and can be done for next to nothing. Dual specing is to avoid the completely pointless trip you have to make to the fleet to do so.

[Vincethejedi]

The other problem with low healer pop is the fact that there is NO single click healing, through add-ons or otherwise.

 

This makes healing very clunky, inefficient, and not fun.

 

This is unequivocally true, please do not quote-reply me with your anti-addon/macro ridiculousness.

 

Dual spec would be a great feature later down the road, it's not something they can just slap together overnight. It's ridiculous to suggest that Dual Spec would hurt the game or the "Community", it's simply non-sense.

[DaxRendar]

Dual Spec was introduced to the MMORPG genre - April 14th, 2009. For 15 years prior to that it did not exist. MMO's were better prior to 2009. Dual Spec was a mistake made in this industry, not an advancement.

 

Sure - it makes things more conveinent. sure it makes things faster. It also makes the game feel less epic. It also lessens your identity with your role/character. It also lessens your need to interact outside of your own little social bubbles.

 

Opinions, feelings... Not Facts

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to proclaim them as "facts" or to automatically think your opinion is worth more than any others.

 

At Endgame, this game basically is a "lobby-based co-op" game with Flashpoints, Operations, and Warzones. It would behoove BioWare to add features like Dual Spec that support a healthy Community for the type of game they created

[Asgodit]

I think the reason why this topic feeds such lengthy discussions is, that it is really a matter of opinion where you draw the line between challenge and inconvenient time sink.

 

Let's face it, 90% of a MMORPG is a time sink one way or an other. How much enjoyment a specific player draws from a specific time sink depends on the personal focus.

 

So one may call running with an ideal group setup in one encounter and a suboptimal setting in the next encounter an unnecessary hurdle others may call it a challenge to let classes fill secondary roles.

 

Some might call levelling a boring prerequisite for the lvl50 endgame, for some it's most of their fun in the game.

 

this list could be continued for most game aspects.

 

In the end it really doesn't matter what any single one here thinks on the topic, I doubt BW will make many decisions based on some forum discussions.

 

Does anyone seriously believe BW wasn't aware of this topic before the game was released? I rather doubt they aren't informed about current gameplay mechanics in the different games of the genre.

My guess would be, that the reason many new MMORPG miss a few known and expected game mechanics at launch because they want to keep some cards in their hands for later use (updates with gameplay enhancements are always appreciated by the players).

 

The current trend of MMORPGs would suggest that DS fans won't need to wait long.

But beware the AC respec might not be far behind, same directions just a few steps further.

 

PS: just a personal opinion on the topic of challenge. As long you have nothing to lose but a bit of time (and really just a little bit) nothing is really a challenge. Just a question of how much time you want to invest.

[lineschmidt]

The other problem with low healer pop is the fact that there is NO single click healing, through add-ons or otherwise.

 

This makes healing very clunky, inefficient, and not fun.

 

This is unequivocally true, please do not quote-reply me with your anti-addon/macro ridiculousness.

 

Dual spec would be a great feature later down the road, it's not something they can just slap together overnight. It's ridiculous to suggest that Dual Spec would hurt the game or the "Community", it's simply non-sense.

Spot on

[LogicalPremise]

Again, I don't understand all this stuff about commitment and "roll identity". Those arguments against respecing altogether, not dual-specing. Respec is already in the game and can be done for next to nothing. Dual specing is to avoid the completely pointless trip you have to make to the fleet to do so.

 

ePeen, I think.

[DarthMithran]

I'd love to see dual-spec. My main is a marauder and being able to optimize a pvp spec and pve spec would be great as I enjoy both.

 

About the only thing I liked about Rift was their soul system and being able to have 5 different specs.

 

I don't understand how people would be against this. Variety in playstyle makes the game more fun. Being able to switch specs when I feel like it without the hassle of respeccing each time would be a great addition to the game.

[Bregah]

Does anyone seriously believe BW wasn't aware of this topic before the game was released? I rather doubt they aren't informed about current gameplay mechanics in the different games of the genre.

My guess would be, that the reason many new MMORPG miss a few known and expected game mechanics at launch because they want to keep some cards in their hands for later use (updates with gameplay enhancements are always appreciated by the players).

 

While I tend to agree with you in this, that's a dangerous thing to try.

 

MMOs are very much "first impression" games. Not having key and/or common features from other games at launch creates a very poor first impression.

 

While I am still having fun (though as my server's population drops, so does the amount of fun I have in any given play session), I can not rememer an MMO lauching missing so many expected (for it's time) features, or having so many seemingly sub-standard versions of systems from other MMOs.

 

To take Rift as an example (which I played for the free month and 2 paid months) - in every way I can think of, systems-wise, it was a far superior game to TOR at launch. Interface, grouping method, performance/visual quality, bugs. I can not think of a system in TOR that, as it stands now, is better designed and/or implemented that the version of that same system in Rift.

 

But, for me, the world that Rift is set in holds nothing for me. The story was uninteresting, and I came away feeling that it was a very good clone of WoW, that looks better, but ultimately was an inferior (however slight) game set in the same basic setting - thus not worth moving to.

 

My first impression of TOR is that I love the setting of the story, and most of the stories, but the actual mechanics, system designs and performance (meaning bugs and also quality of gameplay vs system resources used) is actually pretty poor. Lack of dual specs, lack of useful LFG tools, multiple versions of sparsely populated planets, absolutely terrible PvP design (mostly with regards to Ilum) and the like - so much of the actual design and implementation in this game is, to me, subpar.

 

But it's set in Star Wars, and so I still have fun (more fun than I ever had in the much better, technically, Rift).

 

I do know quite a few people who have left this game due to missing what they (and many others) consider key features. I also know that my own server is nearing ghost town status compared to Christmas time, and it's not a very fun place to be if I need to pug someone (usually a heals) for something. Dual specs and/or LFG would most definitely help this feeling, but also server merges or free transfers.

 

If this ghost town status doesn't show signs of going away by the end of the 1st paid month, I can promise there will be more people that leave the game. I am not saying dual spec would save that, but I know that if dual spec was in the game (or a good LFG system), I would have spent less time waiting around doing nothing and more time playing the game. And that's coming from a tank in a guild with 1/4 of my server's prime time population of 50's (which is 15~17 of 60-70 on any given evening at 8:30 p EST).

[Chewpaco]

While I tend to agree with you in this, that's a dangerous thing to try.

 

MMOs are very much "first impression" games. Not having key and/or common features from other games at launch creates a very poor first impression.

 

While I am still having fun (though as my server's population drops, so does the amount of fun I have in any given play session), I can not rememer an MMO lauching missing so many expected (for it's time) features, or having so many seemingly sub-standard versions of systems from other MMOs.

 

To take Rift as an example (which I played for the free month and 2 paid months) - in every way I can think of, systems-wise, it was a far superior game to TOR at launch. Interface, grouping method, performance/visual quality, bugs. I can not think of a system in TOR that, as it stands now, is better designed and/or implemented that the version of that same system in Rift.

 

But, for me, the world that Rift is set in holds nothing for me. The story was uninteresting, and I came away feeling that it was a very good clone of WoW, that looks better, but ultimately was an inferior (however slight) game set in the same basic setting - thus not worth moving to.

 

My first impression of TOR is that I love the setting of the story, and most of the stories, but the actual mechanics, system designs and performance (meaning bugs and also quality of gameplay vs system resources used) is actually pretty poor. Lack of dual specs, lack of useful LFG tools, multiple versions of sparsely populated planets, absolutely terrible PvP design (mostly with regards to Ilum) and the like - so much of the actual design and implementation in this game is, to me, subpar.

 

But it's set in Star Wars, and so I still have fun (more fun than I ever had in the much better, technically, Rift).

 

I do know quite a few people who have left this game due to missing what they (and many others) consider key features. I also know that my own server is nearing ghost town status compared to Christmas time, and it's not a very fun place to be if I need to pug someone (usually a heals) for something. Dual specs and/or LFG would most definitely help this feeling, but also server merges or free transfers.

 

If this ghost town status doesn't show signs of going away by the end of the 1st paid month, I can promise there will be more people that leave the game. I am not saying dual spec would save that, but I know that if dual spec was in the game (or a good LFG system), I would have spent less time waiting around doing nothing and more time playing the game. And that's coming from a tank in a guild with 1/4 of my server's prime time population of 50's (which is 15~17 of 60-70 on any given evening at 8:30 p EST).

 

RIFT was a joke - a casual player like myself leveled 1-50 in 1.5 weeks. that was 3 hours a night after work.

 

Had absolutley no need to make an alt. If you make a cleric - there is nothing you cant do - tank heal and dps. Then, when all the crybabies screaming about dps meters and dps balance got started it was worse. Seriously - aside from a couple of other classes buffs, you could run a RIFT raid with 14 clerics 2 Warriors - and fill in the rest.

 

Thats what happens with multiple roles - it's stupid.

[terminova]

False. My shaman has been elemental/elemental for years.

 

I tried out a heal spec for grins, but never used it in anything other than a few regular dungeons (and I was in ICC 25 gear at the time)

 

No, if you get invited into a pug as dps, noone expects you to have an tank or heal off spec. I pugged extensively in wow for the last several years and never once saw a dps kicked for not having a particular off spec; during wrath, there was a point where I was pugging icc 10 and 25 man and voa 10 and 25 on 3 characters; I didn't get all 12 pug raids in every week, but I did get all of them in occasionally, and got at least half of them for several months in a row.

 

Because pugs account for 100% of groups, right? Oh wait, no they don't.

[Thaed]

I'd happily pay 1-2mil credits for a dual spec... On my Sniper.

 

I have a spec for PvE (Marks) and a spec for PvP (Lethality). Continually changing between the two isn't a huge pain due to the credits involved (even though I'd prefer to make a one-time payment).

 

The main issues are 1), physically getting to the place where I need to change my spec, 2), re-doing all of my talents and 3), most annoyingly, having to re-organise my bars every time I respec.

 

It's gotten to the point where unless dual-spec is implimented, I just won't bother PvPing on my main as it's not worth the hassle (I'd also accept cover being re-designed, but that's a whole 'nother thread).

[Radiohex]

RIFT was a joke - a casual player like myself leveled 1-50 in 1.5 weeks. that was 3 hours a night after work.

 

Had absolutley no need to make an alt. If you make a cleric - there is nothing you cant do - tank heal and dps. Then, when all the crybabies screaming about dps meters and dps balance got started it was worse. Seriously - aside from a couple of other classes buffs, you could run a RIFT raid with 14 clerics 2 Warriors - and fill in the rest.

 

Thats what happens with multiple roles - it's stupid.

 

You might not understand what dual-spec means. Talking about Rift's goofy class system is a ridiculous straw-man argument.

 

If you only enjoy playing one roll, or if you have enough free time to manage multiple characters, this discussion does not affect you. The crybabies are the people arguing against a feature that saves time for everyone else but them.

[Jetflair]

I just said why. It trivializes specs almost to the point of making them entirely worthless.

 

You may be right, BW may cave to the folk unable to function in dual spec-less game. If so, I'm sure that I will, like the other dual spec abortion games I've played become bored and move on. You guys can then frolic to your hearts content switching specs like its nobody's business. Until then, I would like to keep liking this game. And that means no dual spec, no cross server LFD, none of the other "features" that took WoW from a cool game to a mindless instance queue aimed at grades K-5.

 

Edit: Yes, your CHOICE should have consequences. Did the game somehow screw something up because you CHOSE to play with that guild?

 

Players can anyway respec. Dual spec is nothing more than free ready respec.

Player will anyway have only on spec at time and it really doesn't make difference is it respect or dual spec.

 

Dual spec is just more convent way to do respec since talent trees are ready and there is no charge for it.

 

If people are against dual spec they should be against respec too.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jetflair

[spidermanpuddin]

Dual Spec please!

[DarthKhaos]

Said it before I'll say it again. If you want to min/max for every encounter in a raid, every situation in the game, every little something you'll be paying out the nose. Dual Spec isn't gonna fix that. People in WoW was asking for Tri spec shortly after dual spec (still is) because it's never enough and that's what you're doing now.

[Sai-to]

Dual spec is coming. I'm just hoping it might be as early as patch 1.2.

 

Though by that time, I may not need it as much anymore. Be nice if they stepped up the pace on it's implementation.

[CG_Osirhis]

I'm not necessarily against dual specs, but it is most certainly a luxury item (in the same way heated seats or electric windows are in a car) and should not be expected to be dolled out for free like it is the intrinsic right of every player to have a toon with dual spec.

 

And while were on the subject, dual specs will neither be a game breaker nor a game maker so people need to quit treating it/talking about it like it will be. It will be just what I said it was...a luxury item just like a 110% speeder is a luxury. It will not keep players from leaving and it will not be something that sells people on this game.

[DarthKhaos]

I'm not necessarily against dual specs, but it is most certainly a luxury item (in the same way heated seats or electric windows are in a car) and should not be expected to be dolled out for free like it is the intrinsic right of every player to have a toon with dual spec.

 

And while were on the subject, dual specs will neither be a game breaker nor a game maker so people need to quit treating it/talking about it like it will be. It will be just what I said it was...a luxury item just like a 110% speeder is a luxury. It will not keep players from leaving and it will not be something that sells people on this game.

Bravo!

[DarthKhaos]

Part of being in a well oiled guild. I made that choice for the good of the team, so I am now a madness sorc and enjoy the role in raids. However, my love is still Corruption spec in PvP.

 

I don't see the harm in letting us dual spec and save us the frequent trips to respec. In fact respeccing is SO tedious that I now only run in madness, even in PvP, although I like it less.

 

This has nothing to do with respec costs, it has to do with convenience and fun factor. There is no fun for me in respeccing 41 talents before the raid, after the raid, before going to Ilum for PvP and afterwards, before this, after that... see the pattern?

 

We all have 3 roles we can choose, but it is inconvenience that sets ONE in stone for most of us. I see absolutely no harm in allowing us to switch between two roles in this game, without wasting huge amounts of time, cumulatively.

 

In fact, this does not harm or hurt anyone, it would benefit every single player in the game while harming none. Quite honestly, I see opposing this idea simply as being antagonistic and nothing more.

There's a difference between making a choice for the good of the team/guild and bending over and letting them force a person into respecing multiple times in one raid. It's just stupid. Does your guild ask you to switch from madness to corruption for one fight then lightening for another? No that's good. However people are using respecing as a way to make each encounter ezmode then complaining that dual spec is needed. The thing is it'll never be enough. Even to today people are asking for tri spec. Not as much in the start but the fact that people are asking for it is mind boggling.

 

 

THIS is a 2012 mmo. People have adapted to certain features over the last couple years. dual spec is something that almost every mmo out right now has implemented... because the majority of people actually want it. I am 100% for dual spec.. it gives your character more choice and it makes u more versatile/useful to a group. People against this need to toughen up and stop trying to handicap the majorities playing experience.

If they TRULY adapted then they can adapt again. The fact is dual spec doesn't allow for adaptation but the opposite. I have a roll to play in an operation. It is good for some boss encounters it is not as efficient for others. I ADAPT to those that are not in my safe zone to be successful.

 

The fact is you CAN defeat the boss without the most optimum spec but people (as much as they claim they do) don't want to challenge themselves but the easiest way to complete something.

 

Let me put it this way: you are an 8 man operation running guild. You have two tanks because some fights require two tanks. But not all fights do. In fact, some fights don't even require tanks at all. If you do not have two tanks for the two tank fights, you will not complete the fight. If you have two tanks on the one or zero tank fights, you will hit the enrage and not complete the fight.

This made me chuckle. Tanks have different stances/canisters/ammunition available to them that would allow them to do different things. The lesser of the 2 tanks can just switch that and do pretty damn good dps to complete the encounter. Believe me it is possible. Also with this situation if crap hits the fan and the main tank dies 1 second switching stances/canisters/ammunition and a taunt later and that 2nd tank turned dps can tank EFFECTIVELY to have a better chance at success. If they had respec or dual spec into dps guess what he'd be squishy to tank and the the chances of success go down significantly.

 

THAT'S adapting.

 

You know... if the talent system in this game was different/unique I may tend to agree. BUT swtors talent system is so similar to WOWs that u are forced to pick certain abilities in ur tree if u wanna be viable in any endgame stuff.

I wonder if anyone looked at the changes made to the World of Warcraft Talent system?

Edited January 27, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Denskoo]

Personally I have a few various thoughts while sitting on the fence:

 

1. I don't like the idea of "level as dps then switch to tank/heal at cap". I'd much rather that all specs be viable for leveling than to have dual spec for that purpose. Although so far I'm not so certain that all specs aren't currently viable. I haven't played enough variety of classes/specs to know for certain. But overall a game should be designed so that people don't need to spec any certain way to do well soloing/leveling. And with the companions in swtor (assuming you keep them properly geared), I think the game does pretty well as is for most classes.

 

2. One situation I do agree with is leveling as one thing because that's what you wanted to be then reaching level cap and finding out that either you didn't like that spec or your guild needs a different spec. But for this case the existing respec option works fine as is.

 

3. A separate spec for PvP. This does make sense, but I think all MMOs need to approach it as a PvP-only spec.. only available for PvP stuff (for non-PvP servers anyway).

 

4. I do understand the desire to have a wider ability to fit roles on a regular basis. It's nice to be adaptable. And I did like the multiple souls in Rift. But I wish SWTOR had much more horizontal depth in the "talents" or more trees.

 

5. I absolutely hate the idea of needing to be perfectly spec'd for any given particular situation. That's extremely anti-RPG feel. And regardless of what people like to say.. whether everyone ends up being expected to participate in perfectionist spec'ing when dual specs are implemented. Any form of RPG should allow plenty of row for alternative tactics for the diverse variety of potential group compositions.

 

So I guess I'm still on the fence, except I'd definitely agree with a special additional pvp spec slot.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Denskoo

[Moosimoo]

I am a Bodyguard specced Merc, for fp's and ops. I would love to have a PvP spec. I am on a PvP server, so this would also be my solo spec.

 

This would be a welcome gamechanger for me. As a healer I feel I'm being punished for being a utility spec, as I need to solo in this spec also (not fun in Ilum with no companion I tell you)