Mournblood Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 For those who ignored the warning in the title, this thread contains SPOILERS. You've been warned, but just in case you misunderstood that, I've also wrapped the post in spoiler tags. Feel free to do the same (or not) in your responses. So I recently finished the Echoes of Oblivion (on multiple characters), and I picked up on the fact that Syl, one of Satele's students who had perished during the process of Tenebrae's attempt to assimilate Satele and her students, was suddenly and miraculously alive again. What I also noticed was how Vaylin was eyeing the dead student in the final scene. Finally, we see Syl giving Aryn what appears to be a sneering glance as she approaches Satele in the epilogue. Putting these things together, I'm fairly certain that Vaylin has occupied the dead student's body in order to return to the living and wreak whatever havoc and revenge her unstable mind deems necessary. My first question here is did anyone else notice this or reach this conclusion? My second question is anyone else getting a little tired of Bioware recycling villains? I mean, we defeated Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian three times essentially. Are we going to need to do the same with Vaylin? And at what point will we finally move forward from the story arc surrounding Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian and his children? What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) Lots of people. There are other threads on it. I admit I didn't see it at first, probably because I wanted to believe we were finally done with what KOTFE started. I am very disappointed to realize we are probably not. BTW you can add emails from Satele and Senya as evidence for it. Edited January 6, 2021 by RameiArashi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkTergon Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Lots of people. There are other threads on it. I admit I didn't see it at first, probably because I wanted to believe we were finally done with what KOTFE started. I am very disappointed to realize we are probably not. BTW you can add emails from Satele and Senya as evidence for it. ^ Pretty much , there has been a few threads, with some interesting speculations. Especially within the vaylin 'love' thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share Posted January 6, 2021 Anyone have any ideas why Bioware can't seem to move on from this? Do they need a new writer? There's a LOT of history to explore (at least in terms of the EU) between now and where canon starts. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd personally love to see us jump ahead a few centuries somehow up to the events surrounding the Brotherhood of Darkness with Darth Bane and company. So many cool (and terrible) things happen around that time in the SW universe, and it's still 1000 years prior to the Clone Wars. Regardless, I'm pretty much over the current story arc, and I was hoping that this third and final defeat of Tenebrae would be the end of that and the start of something new and exciting. Dealing with Vaylin again is just going to be so incredibly tedious and stale. As if she wasn't annoying and psychotic enough the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuventusAndFCK Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 I don't know about anyone else, but I'd personally love to see us jump ahead a few centuries somehow up to the events surrounding the Brotherhood of Darkness with Darth Bane and company. Funny that you should mention this, I'm actually of the opposing opinion, that I wish they'd stop jumping the story forward random intervals. My only specific hope is that they start using the old cast of characters again instead of inventing new ones for everything. For example I'd have loved to be able to use any of Shae/Torian/Akaavi as my companion in the mando flashpoint instead of temporary companion #5. He could have functioned as the default for players that have none of the old ones I mentioned. I don't think the additions since Ossus have been bad I just wish there was more to it all. Onderon and Mek-sha would have been more flavorful with an additional sidequest or two involving commentary from Jakarro, Gault and Hylo for example, this would have been great for my smuggler character too. Give us a few optional things to do that aren't just objectives for random NPC characters here and there. We've had bit of a taste of the potential with the added Shae/Torian/Akaavi commentary to the Dar'manda dude on Mek-sha. More of that and with more detailed conversations would make the stories feel more alive and add to the sense of replayability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share Posted January 6, 2021 My only specific hope is that they start using the old cast of characters again instead of inventing new ones for everything. For example I'd have loved to be able to use any of Shae/Torian/Akaavi as my companion in the mando flashpoint instead of temporary companion #5. He could have functioned as the default for players that have none of the old ones I mentioned. I do agree with you on this point. And if you had chosen Vette over Torian to survive (as I did on my Sith Warrior), THEN they could substitute random Mando dude to accompany us. But yes, it would have been awesome to have more facetime with Torian during that entire FP. I mean, his clan history is somewhat central to that plot. But as for the rest, I think it's time for them to move on from the old overarching plot and story arc. It's time for a new chapter, with new antagonists, new protagonists, etc. Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian and the family drama 3.0 has been done to death at this point, literally and figuratively. Whether they accomplish that within the current timeline we find ourselves, or jump ahead, doesn't matter to me as long as it's something fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denavin Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 One big problem with this... She was talking to Master Satiel. Satiel is not just some Jedi, she is the most powerful Jedi in the order. She just resisted and over came the influence of Tenebrie. I would think that she would sense that there was something wrong with Syl if that were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share Posted January 6, 2021 One big problem with this... She was talking to Master Satiel. Satiel is not just some Jedi, she is the most powerful Jedi in the order. She just resisted and over came the influence of Tenebrie. I would think that she would sense that there was something wrong with Syl if that were true. Perhaps, but Satele is not omniscient. And to that point, Yoda failed to realize that Palpatine was actually Darth Sidious in all the interactions he had with him, and I think it's fair to say that Yoda > Satele. So it's not totally unreasonable that this couldn't be the case with Vaylin, who is arguably more powerful than Satele. But time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denavin Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Perhaps, but Satele is not omniscient. And to that point, Yoda failed to realize that Palpatine was actually Darth Sidious in all the interactions he had with him, and I think it's fair to say that Yoda > Satele. So it's not totally unreasonable that this couldn't be the case with Vaylin, who is arguably more powerful than Satele. But time will tell. That is possible although Yoda will still not be born for another 2800 years. It is possible that Satele simply did not sense all the extreme darkness in Vaylin. Though I would think that it would be extremely hard for her to hide that since she is so totally Dark. As you said Time Will Tell... We shall just have to wait and see.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuventusAndFCK Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) But as for the rest, I think it's time for them to move on from the old overarching plot and story arc. It's time for a new chapter, with new antagonists, new protagonists, etc. Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorian and the family drama 3.0 has been done to death at this point, literally and figuratively. Whether they accomplish that within the current timeline we find ourselves, or jump ahead, doesn't matter to me as long as it's something fresh. I'm not sure what you read in my post, but I don't disagree with any of that. I too was done with Valkorion & co. a long time ago. What I want is just for the old companions to at least interact with the story in some capacity, regardless of what form it takes. As an example, a portion of the upcoming story material will be about the Jedi, at least for republic characters and imperial saboteur characters. Instead of it just being Arn and Tau, I'd like to have the option of bringing class-exclusive companions like Nadia, Jaesa and Ashara along, or Kira and maybe even Guss, and have them offer up opinions, conversations and just be a part of this Jedi story line. I hate how most characters return is a one off thing, there is no reason why we can't have new stories but include the companions that we originally had as our cast, besides writing ambition and the limit of Bioware's funds. Edited January 6, 2021 by JuventusAndFCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLazarillo Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 It is possible that Satele simply did not sense all the extreme darkness in Vaylin. Though I would think that it would be extremely hard for her to hide that since she is so totally Dark. My...hope, honestly, anyway, is that, much as the villain in EoO wasn't really Tenebrae but rather a sort of clone of him based on the memories of others, the same would be the case for this "Vaylin": it's not the pants-on-head-Darkside hopeless imbecile who died in KotET, but rather, an "impression" of her, and, being its own entity, could be redeemed similarly just through the belief that redemption was possible. It would explain how Satele couldn't sense it (not that it would/should even be needed for the "real" Vaylin, who can't go five minutes without kicking a puppy or whatever, lest she face withdrawals) and be a far better story hook anyway, I figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denavin Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Vaylin, who can't go five minutes without kicking a puppy or whatever, lest she face withdrawals ^^ Made me laugh... Too Funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snordoc Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 I've also had enough of vilain resurrections (Malgus, Valkorion, ...) and I hope BW will propose a fresh story arc. However, in Vaylin's specific case I was very frustrated by the way we got to kill her without offering her any chance of redemption. In EoO we get to meet Vaylin's spirit and, probably depending on past elements that I don't fully understand, we can sometimes talk to her and evoke her possible redemption, which she then seems to consider positively (I played EoO with 2 Siths and 2 Jedi and this dialog occured I think only once, with one of my Jedi). I for once wouldn't mind if they resurrect Vaylin provided the new story has a rich psychological content where we could try to rally her to our cause (e.g. redemption in the light side of the Force, or in the dark side as a servant of the Sith), with equal chances of success and failure depending on our actions, rather than just have to fight and kill her again. I also hope her possible redemption won't be as easy and fast as Arkan's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkTergon Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 That is possible although Yoda will still not be born for another 2800 years. It is possible that Satele simply did not sense all the extreme darkness in Vaylin. Though I would think that it would be extremely hard for her to hide that since she is so totally Dark. As you said Time Will Tell... We shall just have to wait and see.... It might also be possible that she's not as powerful in the new form, or that anything satelle sensed she put down to stress from what happened, and not anything else. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 What? I have done it twelve times and she has never responded positively. She is same old seflish brat she always was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted January 7, 2021 Author Share Posted January 7, 2021 I've also had enough of vilain resurrections (Malgus, Valkorion, ...) and I hope BW will propose a fresh story arc. However, in Vaylin's specific case I was very frustrated by the way we got to kill her without offering her any chance of redemption. In EoO we get to meet Vaylin's spirit and, probably depending on past elements that I don't fully understand, we can sometimes talk to her and evoke her possible redemption, which she then seems to consider positively (I played EoO with 2 Siths and 2 Jedi and this dialog occured I think only once, with one of my Jedi). I for once wouldn't mind if they resurrect Vaylin provided the new story has a rich psychological content where we could try to rally her to our cause (e.g. redemption in the light side of the Force, or in the dark side as a servant of the Sith), with equal chances of success and failure depending on our actions, rather than just have to fight and kill her again. I also hope her possible redemption won't be as easy and fast as Arkan's. Having no choice but to kill her didn't bother me, since I felt that she was just too psychotic and too broken to be realistically redeemed. And in my personal opinion, I also find her too annoying. She's like this crazy powerful whiny brat thanks to her dad, who was essentially evil incarnate. So understandably I'm very much not looking forward to dealing with her again, and I'm concerned as you are that we'll either only end up killing her again, or she'll be redeemed in some extremely cheesed Mary Sue way. Regardless, it seems we're all in agreement that Bioware just needs to move on and give us something new and fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruffolofi Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) I don't know about anyone else, but I'd personally love to see us jump ahead a few centuries somehow up to the events surrounding the Brotherhood of Darkness with Darth Bane and company. So many cool (and terrible) things happen around that time in the SW universe, and it's still 1000 years prior to the Clone Wars. Would we still be playing the same characters as now or would this be more of a SWTOR 2.0 sort of a thing with brand new player characters? Edited January 7, 2021 by ruffolofi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 Would we still be playing the same characters as now or would this be more of a SWTOR 2.0 sort of a thing with brand new player characters? Good question, for which I obviously don't have the answer. It was merely wishful thinking to move the story forward to a point in the timeline where something truly pivotal happens. Then again, I'm not sure I'd want to play a Sith around the time of Darth Bane since the Sith Empire is utterly destroyed except for Bane and Zannah. And I'm absolutely not a fan of the literal interpretation of the Rule of Two. But I digress. The point was, is, that it's time to move on from Tenebrae and family. The story arc is like a rock-hard, two-week old stale cookie that no one wants to eat, no matter how much you may happen to like cookies. It's time for some CAKE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RameiArashi Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 The Rule of Two is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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