PvP and Why It Sucks (As a level 50 Marauder)

[Ceraz]

Before I begin, I'd like to take a moment and talk about the game in general. It is a fantastic game, based on rich lore and beautiful back story with almost unlimited potential. This could literally be a game that brings people who have never been interested in MMOs into them based on the license alone. However, there are many, many, many issues that will possibly affect that, and I'm going to touch on some of them a bit. Please try to read the whole thing so that an honest discussion can take place.

 

1. Playing on a PvP Server

My main is a 50 Sith Marauder on the Death Wind Corridor server. I have always loved open world PvP and have partaken in it gleefully since the days of the Second Age of Ultima Online (before the concept of having a world where PvP couldn't happen existed) and really enjoy the risk and reward aspect.

 

Yes, I said risk and reward. So I'm trudging along for a while on Tatooine when I finally come across my first Republic player in the open world. I quickly get a jump on him and after fighting him for a few moments, I get that exciting deathblow... annndd... nothing. Nothing happened. There was no XP bonus, no form of token, not even a 'valor' increase.

 

With this idea of added risk, there needs to be a reward. Without it, I've found that other players will avoid PvP even on a PvP server and typically try to go around the others, even if they have a level advantage. This needs to change and a simple way to fix that would be to add rewards. Simply add something like... Mercenary Commendations for open world PvP.

 

2. The Commendation System

Speaking of Commendations... the current system for getting them is absolutely terrible. Currently, the only two ways to get Mercenary Commendations is to 1) Trade 30 Warzone Commendations for 10 Mercenary Commendations (3:1! That's insane!) OR get lucky and find a chest in the Outlaw's Group PvP zone on Tatooine.. which was recently stealth nerfed into oblivion.

 

What needs to be done? Make commendations more available and frankly, worth getting. Doing obscene numbers of warzones isn't fun, engaging, or even challenging. It's getting to the point where I can see someone paying someone else to play a warzone for them, seeing as how you still get a decent number even on a loss.

 

3. Warzone Balance

Part 1: Voidstar(Assault)

Oh boy. Let's talk about this colossal failure. So if you've never played it (which I imagine many of you haven't after being forced to play Huttball until your eyes bleed), basically the two teams get a turn of assaulting a level by planting a bomb (8 second click) on a door. The typical 'shield door with random timer' as in Huttball is present for every time you die, causing this one to be even more infuriating than Huttball.

 

The major issues with this are the Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor classes (and believe me, I'll talk more about certain parts of them later.) They can literally run past everyone stealthed and run right up to the door, making the only viable strategy on defense NOT to block the oncoming attack, but to babysit a door. To make matters worse, if one bomb goes off they proceed to the next stage, making this heavily stacked for the offense. Even worse, is that these same classes I mentioned before have that lovely 'speed burst' skill and can literally get to the next door bomb location before you can get out of the spawn if you are unlucky. To be honest, the only ways I can think of fixing this awful game is to make it so that the door releases more often for the defenders and to possibly make the bomb time longer than 3 or 5 seconds?

 

Part 2: Huttball

Yeah. You know this one because it's probably the only one you ever get to play. It's boring, it's not exactly in the spirit of PvP, and honestly if you play the game objectively (scoring the ball for example) you'll end up with less commendations/xp/rewards than someone who just ran around and murdered people.

 

The Arena:

Lets talk about the Arena from a Marauders point of view. I come down from the spawn, and there's a large ledge where the score zone is that can only be reached by ramps. Ok, that means that anyone can't just walk up and score. At least, that's the intention. Every class to my knowledge (Except the Jedi Sentinel) get some form of push or knockback. Even the other specialization of the Sith Warrior gets 'Force Push' which lets them push people off of these ramps. Me? Not a single one.

 

The ramps are frustrating alone as it is when you take into account just knockbacks and pushes even from a purely defensive standpoint when you have NONE of the abilities both your team-mates and opponents have. To make matters worse, there are flame traps. Guess what gets used on flame traps all the time? stuns. I'll talk more about stuns later, but in terms of PvP in general these are ridiculous...

 

What can I say to make this arena any better? Maybe add an ability in Huttball that lets players get somewhere near their defense zone? Better yet, add more approaches to being able to score. As it is, Huttball is simply infuriating to play as someone who cannot defend the score zone or a ball carrier on a ramp because they get knocked down and have to wait 15 seconds for 'force charge' to cooldown.

 

4. Stealth in Combat

Know what one of the most frustrating things in PvP is? Know that moment right when you're about to get a kill on someone who may have even ambushed you from stealth only to have them stealth up and totally disappear? That's garbage. I don't think that anyone should be able to have permanent stealth when they are listed as 'in combat'. If you cannot use your heal self ability while in combat, why have a permanent stealth with 100% invisibility in PvP? To make this make more sense, I think that in PvP the outline should always be in effect if they are listed as in combat. Otherwise, we will continue to see ridiculous numbers of these stealth classes (especially Inquisitors and Consulars) if the warzones continue to cater to them.

 

5. Stuns in Combat (From a Marauder's Perspective)

Speaking of other nonsense, let's talk about stuns. They are incredibly useful in PvE and still useful in PvP. What's not OK (at least from a Marauder standpoint) is how these are used in PvP. Many classes get multiple stuns that will keep a played stunned even if they are taking direct damage. This is BS, total BS.

 

Guess what I can do? I can choke you for 3 seconds, which is a channel, meaning I can't do anything else. If I spend a ton of points I can make my 3 second ravage ability immobilize you during the duration (also a channel.) Hmm. Notice a pattern? I can't stun, cc, or otherwise immobilize you like other (still melee based) classes can. Granted, I do get an AoE stun for 6 seconds.. that wears off if the target takes damage. How is this balance?

 

I get an ability take gets rid of any movement, hold, or stun effect that can be used once every two minutes. In terms of Huttball, that's about.. maybe.. 4 times a match? I have to pick which exact stun I break free from and hope that I don't get chain-stunned by another stun from a class that has multiple ones right away. This needs to stop. There needs to be a stun/hold immunity in PvP.

 

6. Marauders in General

I know, I know, this is where I talk about my class getting the short end of the stick, and everyone else is OP. But I've noticed some things both with playing with other classes, and playing those classes myself. I seem to be able to do amazing dps, until I compare myself with a Sith Assassin, who is also a melee dps. I figure, no problem. I'm probably more durable than they are because I have heavier armor. Honestly, this isn't the case. A Sith Assassin is more likely to be an offtank than a Marauder. Why is this? I come from the same archtype class as the Juggernaut. Shouldn't I be more of an off-tank than them?

 

I strongly believe that the Marauder needs some sort of boost for both PvP and PvE. Leveling from 40-50 was an utter nightmare after the mobs started hitting noticeably harder (Around Hoth?) and made the game almost unplayable even though both my companion and I were geared quite well for my level and forced me to rely on medpacks.

 

What can be done? Either boost the Sith Marauders survivability or dps. I think the survivability makes more sense seeing as how we come from the 'Sith Warrior' archtype.

 

Conclusion

Well, I honestly hope you read in earnest what I wrote up to this point instead of just skimming it. I want to say that I didn't take the time to write all this out because I'm 'doomsaying' or saying 'how this game sucks', but quite the opposite. I love this game and I want it to succeed. I want to be playing this game 6 or more years from now and enjoying it as much as I have been up until this point. I know it's just the start and things will eventually get better, but I hope my ideas have some sort of push to get the gears rolling on that change. Thanks for reading.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Ceraz

[Ceraz]

I just realized how much I typed... Sorry.

 

I really think I brought up some good points thought, even if they have been brought up countless times before.

[Vshortyy]

I absolutly love this whole post. I have played so many mmo's that I will not name any of them. I will say that I have not played this one as of yet but I am downloading it now so I can not directly relate to what you have said in regards to this game. I can say that every single issue you have with this game in regards to pvp are the same issues that pop up in every mmo I have ever played. The only way I have ever gotten the full feel of a game and its pvp aspect is to mid level each class and give them some time in pvp. Which ever one I enjoyed the most even with flaws in either gameplay or balance I stick to strickly for pvp. Like I said before, I have not played this game but I will still use this strategy while playing pvp. As for pve its a toss up for me.

[Ceraz]

I absolutly love this whole post. I have played so many mmo's that I will not name any of them. I will say that I have not played this one as of yet but I am downloading it now so I can not directly relate to what you have said in regards to this game. I can say that every single issue you have with this game in regards to pvp are the same issues that pop up in every mmo I have ever played. The only way I have ever gotten the full feel of a game and its pvp aspect is to mid level each class and give them some time in pvp. Which ever one I enjoyed the most even with flaws in either gameplay or balance I stick to strickly for pvp. Like I said before, I have not played this game but I will still use this strategy while playing pvp. As for pve its a toss up for me.

 

The story writing alone in this game is reason enough to play PvE, maybe even for every single class! Seriously, it's spectacular. However, my experience with PvP so far has been... shaky at best as you have read. I think some minor changes would greatly increase the appeal of this game.

[Technicianlife]

Signed...coming from a Marauder as well.

 

In terms of the warzones themselves, I can live with things how they are; my main complaint about these (aside from the disparity) would be to be able to choose which one you want to do, and maybe get rid of the rez gate mechanic / alter it.

 

But CC is a bit out of hand, and resolve really isn't doing anything. I understand that CC is a strength of some classes, but it isn't right that the one thing I am good for (DPS) is dominated by SI whom keep me constantly stunned, and knock me off the Huttball ramps non-stop. Again, just after some balance here, so either give us more CC or more CC immunity.

[Dark-Poet]

So you can jump over the fire in hut ball is that ok? No other class can do that. So if you take our stealh away then lets take your jump and leep to a secound floor away.

[McDaniels]

Marauder/sentinel is a good class... It's a great class with decent healer support which is often hard to come by, but even without it it can be played well and is difficult to kill if you use your in combat stealth and 99% damage reduction correctly.

[Tebbo]

Just today I avoided some sith on Tat, on death wind corridor.

 

Think I'm going to hang around against someone 15lvls+ higher? lol no thanks. hide and change instance. that's what I did.

 

I love pvp and all, but it's not fun when all the pvp you experience is being ganked. I'm ok with it happening sometimes since...that's just how it is, and it makes questing more exciting to try and dodge imperials while also trying to do stuff.

 

Your points are right though. They should really just put in a patch and test it out for a few weeks. Give some xp, valor, maybe a random commendation drop, i dont know, something. see how it goes over with the playerbase and then adjust from there.

[Swagasuar]

I just want to thank you for this post, this game is great but there are some things that need to change. I don't know much about your class, but agree 100% with your statements about pvp in general. As for huttball, it does suck, but as someone before me said, you DO have a jump that gives you an advantage when it comes to fires and scoring, even if u can't knock people away while defending. Also, an aoe stun and force choke can be just as useful for defending as a knock back can. But overall a great post, thank you for presenting your points in such a mature way.

[Rea-]

3. Warzone Balance

Part 1: The Spaceship (Assault)

Oh boy. Let's talk about this colossal failure. So if you've never played it (which I imagine many of you haven't after being forced to play Huttball until your eyes bleed), basically the two teams get a turn of assaulting a level by planting a bomb (3 or 5 second click, I can't remember as I've only played it very few times) on a door. The typical 'shield door with random timer' as in Huttball is present for every time you die, causing this one to be even more infuriating than Huttball.

 

The major issues with this are the Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor classes (and believe me, I'll talk more about certain parts of them later.) They can literally run past everyone stealthed and run right up to the door, making the only viable strategy on defense NOT to block the oncoming attack, but to babysit a door. To make matters worse, if one bomb goes off they proceed to the next stage, making this heavily stacked for the offense. Even worse, is that these same classes I mentioned before have that lovely 'speed burst' skill and can literally get to the next door bomb location before you can get out of the spawn if you are unlucky. To be honest, the only ways I can think of fixing this awful game is to make it so that the door releases more often for the defenders and to possibly make the bomb time longer than 3 or 5 seconds?

 

if you have that much understanding of the other warzones then it doesnt matter what bioware does, you will still suck

 

respawn door is not random, placing bomb is 8sec, defusing 3sec, bombtimer 20sec, you are SUPPOSED to defend as DEFENDER, speed burst does NOT give you an 8sec advantage

Edited December 30, 2011 by Rea-

[Gaidax]

Boost Marauder survivability? You must be joking... Saber Ward, Defy Pain, Obfuscate and your own version of stealth are not enough? What else do you want?

[Sardoni]

You must not be dot spec with lifesteal capabilities.

[Jieljak]

Wait what, you said remove Stealth in combat from my Scoundrel if i get it right.

 

Disappearing Act is 3 minutes cooldown. Not like i can runaway anytime i want. In other topics, there was discussion about nerfing the Scoundrel's openings.

 

So basically people want Scoundrels (and Operative) to not runaway, do not much damage, easily killable targets.

 

Seems like Scoundrel (and Operative) players will join Jedi/Sith forces if Bioware listens to people. They aren't popular classes, with nerfs the people want, seems like nobody will play them.

 

In WoW, nerfing Rogue worked because there were 3 different combat specs for Rogues. When they nerfed Sub, we played Mutilate or even combat, we had another choices.

 

But sorry to say, if Bioware listen people and nerf our only viable spec to the ground, ROGUE PLAYERS WON'T PLAY HEALER SPEC or Dirty Combat spec, I'm not saying there shouldn't be nerf, but Bioware must be extra careful, there is ONLY 1 ROGUE spec, and please don't kill Rogue lovers joy in Swtor.

 

I think, this subject deserve a topic, because very important but have no time to open it right now, hope a Rogue lover open it or i will open it when i have time.

[Smellyzarg]

As a Level 50 Sith Marauder my self, I have to say you must be terrible at playing your marauder.. We have a LOTS of survivability: Obfuscate, Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Undying Ragea and Force Camuflage, you can even Frenzy and pop Predation which gives 50% movement increasement, and 10% defense rating in melee and ranged.. If you choose to use the Annihilation tree, you will find your self able to self heal through your bleeds as well, So saying we dont have enough survivability is BS.

 

Speaking of Damage.. Annihilation does a good amount of damage, and for PvP specifically the Rage tree can do ALOT by utilizing Shockwave and the 100% Crit Chance smash, which can grant you VERY HIGH crits with smash, the dps is very good on marauders.

 

And regarding other people having knockbacks.. We have Force Charge Which can be ALOT more useful than any other knock back.. Seeing as you can leap from the big areas that are sinked down up to the enemy team's score field.

[Aetla]

Agreed with the OP!

 

First of all, open world PvP is a MUST.

 

I play in PvP server, i paid the game for competitive PvP, i put my whole effort to develop my skills, crafting and et cetera to become a better player when i engage with the Republic.

 

Relying on Warzones is a fail for Bioware. This game needs to be re-oriented to make open world encouraging and rewarding for any PvP gamer.

 

PvE content, story and the lore is totally amazing beyond any imagination but without proper PvP content and challenging game dynamics this wont offer anything and dry out quickly for any PvP oriented MMO gamer. Results shall be increasing amount of quits after consuming story content where the area of Bioware put nigh all their efforts.

 

Beware Bioware, if you ignore the PvP playerbase i think you'll face with some unpleasant quit wave in couple of months.

[Ahlin]

It's obvious that your experience in PVP, as well as the mechanics of balancing PVP is lacking.

 

The PVP is of course not very balanced at the moment, that's how new games are. However it's not because of the things you listed.

 

I'll continue to enjoy kiting Warrior types from full to dead though

[sjwho]

This is why i gave up maurauder. I LOVED the class, but its not worth it to play a cannon foddder pvp class and a pve class that almost dies after every pull later.

[SexOnIce]

I play on a PvE server, so my comment is just based off Warzone PvP.

 

Sith warriors always piss me off in hutball because of their ability to jump up to an enemy on the catwalks. But does it need to be removed from the game? No. I have my own abilities(sorcerer) that have their own advantages. Each class can dominate in Warzones, you just need to learn how to use your class effectively. It just depends on how you use your abilities and attacks.

 

This jump ability alone, if used correctly, is enough to make the Warrior class a very good PvP class for hutball.

[Jarlhen]

Point 1 and 2, fair enough, agreed with you there.

 

The other points? Not impressed. Most are L2P issues and accepting that your class is good at some things, not so good at others. Marauders have the capability to wreck in PvP, I think you just need to change your mindset a little bit. Not saying they might not need some tweaking, but generally speaking they can do real well. I don't very much enjoy fighting them at least. I prefer sages/sorcerors, free kills if you have a smidge of a clue on how to use interrupt and stun.

[MorluCa]

You have no idea what you are talking about without ripping apart your whole post. Void star(Not spaceship) takes 8 seconds to plant the bomb, and 3 seconds to defuse it. If you let an Assassin/Shadow or Operative/Scoundrel cap it (Sith Inquisitors don't have stealth) then you are bad. There's issues with stuns/ insane burst, etc... But most of the stuff in your post is 100% garbage from someone who thinks he's all that in PvP but we both know... You're just bad

[sjwho]

This jump ability alone, if used correctly, is enough to make the Warrior class a very good PvP class for hutball.

 

Lol, you must be new to pvp.

 

Try versing a ranged class on the 2nd or 3rd tear catwalk and see how "good" you are because of it.

 

 

Yeah, i can jump to them! oh 1 knockback and they win any fight 1v1.

---------------------

Thats how bad it is, 1 knockback and you have no chance of winning at all.

[SexOnIce]

Lol, you must be new to pvp.

 

Try versing a ranged class on the 2nd or 3rd tear catwalk and see how "good" you are because of it.

 

 

Yeah, i can jump to them! oh 1 knockback and they win any fight 1v1.

---------------------

Thats how bad it is, 1 knockback and you have no chance of winning at all.

 

Then that warrior can just run under the catwalk, making the ranged classes unable to hit him until they jump down. Which then the warrior can have a chance at winning. I've seen that done many times.

[Ceraz]

Lol, you must be new to pvp.

 

Try versing a ranged class on the 2nd or 3rd tear catwalk and see how "good" you are because of it.

 

 

Yeah, i can jump to them! oh 1 knockback and they win any fight 1v1.

---------------------

Thats how bad it is, 1 knockback and you have no chance of winning at all.

 

This. Every time I force jump to a target on a catwalk I typically have one of two options:

1) Attack as normal and hope that I don't get knocked off (which I normally will instantly from a crazy area of effect knockback ability.

2) Position myself quickly along the catwalk so i get knocked along the catwalk so that I will often be knocked into a hazard such as a fire pit.

 

They simply need to tone down how far knockback sends your character in PvP so that we aren't all being knocked all over the place.

[Ceraz]

So you can jump over the fire in hut ball is that ok? No other class can do that. So if you take our stealh away then lets take your jump and leep to a secound floor away.

 

The Bounty Hunter/Mercenary (Not sure what the Jedi equivalent is) can.

[Ceraz]

...respawn door is not random, placing bomb is 8sec, defusing 3sec, bombtimer 20sec, you are SUPPOSED to defend as DEFENDER, speed burst does NOT give you an 8sec advantage

 

I have died on a phase just as the bomb blew up, gotten unlucky by how long the respawn door was up and couldn't get out to the next bomb before that one blew up. Yes, the speed burst if used correctly can give that big of an advantage.