Vodalus Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 just wondering what makes people think they are not working on adding more customization? That they've actually gone backward from where it was in beta 6 months out from launch, for starters. What can they do to improve their current system? Seriously, what could they even do with it? At this point, all they could do is add an Atab. Now, I'm all for that, but they actually could have had something decent with their mod system. Instead we end up with this dual-system gearing (modable and non-modable) where half of the items are totally worthless and the customization is buried under multiple layers of random. You know what, I'm going to paste in my suggestion from beta. It shows what kind of potential the system had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 just wondering what makes people think they are not working on adding more customization? The sheer amount of work the developers have to do plus the constant upkeep just to make the orange modification system on par with an appearance tab tells us all we need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) This was the post I made with my suggestion from beta. There was some good discussion in the thread with some good suggestions. Some I wasn't a fan of, others I was. All of the suggestions better than what we got. (Keep in mind that this was the whole post and, as such, includes some points that don't quite apply to what we have now; orange gear didn't even exist at this point. Green was non-modable, blue partially, purple fully.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The item mod system, in its current iteration or any other hybrid version, seems to be attempting to be all things to all people. But, as is usually the case when one attempts this, it ends up being very little for anyone. At best, I'd call the hybrid system (fully modable/partially modable/non-modable) a novelty and a way to claim being "different" or "unique" with the gear system. But really, this system essentially herds everyone into the select-handful of fully modable items, creating just another version of the gear progression clone system and ultimately rendering the majority of the gear mostly useless; if it has less than the full contingent of mod slots, it is basically just filler gear. The following is my suggestion for making the mod system useful and meaningful: -Give all items of a better-than-white quality mod slots. The number of mod slots would be determined by the item quality, with each step down from the top tier having 1 less slot than the next-highest tier. -Allow slots to be added to gear. -Use the item enhancement stations to add slots -Adding slots requires resources -Each additional tier-equivalent upgrade requires a higher tier of resource. (ie: Going from green to blue requires tier 1 resources, while going from blue or upgraded green to purple requires tier 2 resources, etc. . . Thus, going from green to purple level would require tier 1 and tier 2 resources. The exact number, type, and tier of resources needed would be determined by those with more complete info (devs) and then tested, of course.) -Crafted items follow the same rules for slots. -All non-crafted items (including white items) are eligible for reverse engineering by the appropriate crafting profession, but require <yet-to-be-determined additional component of mild to moderate value> to do so. The item would then have a chance to produce a schematic for crafting. If the process fails, the additional component is consumed, but the original item is not destroyed. Additional attempts would require more of the additional component. If the process succeeds, a schematic for an identical item is produced. This item can then be made and RE'd as a normal crafted item with the chance to produce a schematic for the next quality tier. (Successful RE of the crafted item produces a green schematic with the appropriate contingency of limited slots, etc. . .) (Possibility that rare quest/fp/opp rewards/drops and social/commendation items would be ineligible for RE to help maintain their value.) -All non-social gear comes with any pre-installed mods needed to bring the item up to the appropriate usefulness for its level and quality. These would not be top-tier mods. -Mod would be available via drops, quest rewards, vendors, and crafting. -All alignment and armor type or other requirements would still apply. *All resources, costs, and itemizations would, of course, be subject to balancing. Any specifics above are for the purpose of example. This system would allow for full appearance customization for those who choose to use it while also allowing for those uninterested in customization to simply use and toss gear as they go (by use of the pre-installed mods), only requiring involvement in the mod system for top-tier end game min/maxing. Gathering skills come into play for producing the resources needed to add slots, while the crafting professions come into play for their exclusive gear designs, their crafted mods, and the ability to produce upgraded versions of items (by RE-ing non-crafted gear and improving it) for those who want to buy their way to the upgraded version without working to add slots to the gear themselves. Over-all, this would stimulate the economy since modable gear is normalized rather than rare (where the rare modable items were prompting some to hold on to a piece forever and not participate in the greater economy, simply because they finally have a piece that can be modded and didn't know when they would get another), leaving rarity and value for actual items, not just because something has slots. Gear, mods, and resources would all be important factors in the economy. A quick bullet-list of the effects of this idea: -Enormous appearance opportunity so everyone can meet their own aesthetic values -Maintained ability for devs to keep looks within certain bounds by way of specific restrictions and rarity -"Clone" effect practically eliminated (unless some choose to look alike) -Value and weight in item progression maintained through required "effort", even though things can be upgraded beyond their original status -Crafter involvement without having to rely on crafters for every piece you want to upgrade -Added value for gathering -Freedom to simply follow the gear progression all the way through leveling. Thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion. I am looking forward to feedback and open to updating my idea if I overlooked anything. I hope that the devs take the time to at least consider the general idea and purpose of this suggestion. *Format edited for ease of reading since it was copy/paste from word. Edited February 17, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whillwynn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I still think the optimal solution to this is incredibly complex, because there's lots of issues that are just barely disguised by the system as it is now. But at a glance: Make all armor fully moddable. The armor itself (called 'shell' from here on out) is obtainable from specific missions, crafting, PvP, raiding. Spread the looks so that each activity at each level range rewards at least one set of shells. The only items with stats and without mods should be non-cosmetic pieces such as earpieces, implants, etc.Make missions rewards and Flashpoint/Op drops be Commendations and mods (and maybe rare shells). No green items; they're useless beyond level 10 anyway, since you start picking up moddable gear and rarely look back. In this scheme, the mods are the stat progression.Standardize mod availability. Commendation Mod Vendors should have blue mods for all roles (at a higher price, since shells would be common). Cybertech should get green versions of all mod types from their trainer, but the RE blue versions of those mods should be marginally better than the Commendation mods, and the epics should be the best outside of endgame and world drops.Tie Augment slots to the armoring. High-quality armorings (blue and epic) should have augment slots based on their relative power, with endgame armorings having the highest amounts. This would allow people to look as they please without sacrificing stat progression, and would keep rewards coming steadily without wasted options (seriously, I can't recall the last time I chose a green item over a Commendation that wasn't for a companion). Edited February 17, 2012 by Whillwynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fomby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I really want my consular to wear pants. And there isn't any endgame pants for consulars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just to be on par with an appearance tab, the orange mod system requires a lot of work and up keep. Every variation of every weapon and armor piece in game has to now have an orange recipe to compliment it. That means a lot of time going back and creating orange recipes for every white, green, blue, and purple item in game. Then updating their system every time a new batch of white, green, blue, and purple items are introduced for expansions. Lets say Bioware does make an orange recipe for every item and every color variation in game. Do we honestly expect a crafter to bloat their crafting list with that many orange recipes? Just add an appearance tab. The orange mod system is great for modifying my gear, but it SUCKS for an appearance system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just played DCUO for a bit there, and it's remarkable how much better their appearance system is. Basically, if you've ever equipped something, it becomes an option forever after in your appearance tab, and you can mix and match. The eystem is pretty well thought out. Granted there's only one appearance "slot" atm, but they're going to introduce more. Frankly, I wouldn't mind paying in-game resources for more. *sigh*, well I'm holding on to a few items I've liked the look of in SWTOR over the course of the game, in the vain hope that one day they'll introduce something similar here - maybe an advanced crafting ability to "covert" any item into an Orange item? It seems to me that Orange gear was chosen over appearance tabs because of the inclusion of crafting (mods, enhs). I'd love to know if my surmise is correct, but that's how it seems to me, otherwise there's no rationale for Orange gear over appearance tab, unless it's sheerly technical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It seems to me that Orange gear was chosen over appearance tabs because of the inclusion of crafting (mods, enhs). I'd love to know if my surmise is correct, but that's how it seems to me, otherwise there's no rationale for Orange gear over appearance tab, unless it's sheerly technical. In beta Bioware went from a complex system where each item type had its own armor mod and every item was modable to locking mods in armor and only having one type (orange gear) modable. They did this at the end of beta against the warnings of their testers that such a system was extremely limiting and would only cause them more work. Bioware does not want to implement an appearance tab because they are too in love with their orange mod system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdots Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Um, you can. Check your GTM (Auction House) under light armour. Click the level tab until all the orange gear appears and search there, you should find both the chest and skirt to be moddable. I'm on a heavy populated server and there isn't a single piece of orange light armor gear on the GTM from 1-50. Not a single piece, let alone one of the pieces I like. As such, your suggestion seems less than helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakua Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Magnuskn, OP. good stuff! I agree with all ur points /Support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Check the latest q&a. Endgame usable orange gear and togglable hoods are in the offing. Edited February 17, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Check the latest q&a. Endgame usable orange gear and togglable hoods are in the offing. The hood toggle is good news, and one of the few "new" bits of features info in the Q&A. The endgame orange gear is not new info, though I think it's the first time they have clearly stated that the set bonus would be on the armor mods. The sad thing is that so much of this would be wholly unnecessary if they had actually done things right the first time. For all of the talk about wanting to do things right, they sure did a poor job of it. Even the V/O, which I have always been a fan of, was not done right in many ways; overly repeated player character phrases, companion comment triggers that happen every single time (even when the comments are about this being the "first time" they see something), ship droids (I don't think I need to provide more details on that one. . .). The rest of the Q&A is the typical vague marketing speak when it comes to features. They did go into some philosophy detail that was nice to see, however irrelevant it might be to me specifically. I'm glad those who are interested those aspects got some decent info. Anyway, I may return eventually, but I don't guarantee it. I think I have about a week left on my sub, so I'll be around the forums until that is expired (since this has been one of my primary "homes" on the internet for the past 3 1/2 years). It's pretty obvious that it's time for me to move on when I opt to be on the forums and search for info on other things to do rather than log in, even when RL allows for me to log in. Disappointed and disillusioned. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagessel Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 OK this is getting tiresome. The only times I've seen any developer comment on appearance customization it's about armor/clothing, hoods up/down. Has anyone found any mention of character appearance re-customization? As in a barbershop? Changing complexion, tattoos, facial hair, etc? It's just a matter of reopening the last page of character creation screen. And how about companions? The vast majority of Makos are Mako #2. We need to be able to recustomize our companions the same way. I have not found a single word about it, such a simple thing that would do wonders for player retention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 OK this is getting tiresome. The only times I've seen any developer comment on appearance customization it's about armor/clothing, hoods up/down. Has anyone found any mention of character appearance re-customization? As in a barbershop? Changing complexion, tattoos, facial hair, etc? It's just a matter of reopening the last page of character creation screen. And how about companions? The vast majority of Makos are Mako #2. We need to be able to recustomize our companions the same way. I have not found a single word about it, such a simple thing that would do wonders for player retention.It is clear for more than one year now, that Bioware is firmly opposed to any appearance system at this point. Will they cede year later, like Blizzard did with its transmosomethingion? Probably. So far the message sent is: deal with it, there is no appearance system in this game, just content yourself with the custom gear+ mods leftovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Keep up the customization fight, everyone. The past few years have been fun. Keep a light on for me and I may be back one day. /bow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candamorg Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Well the human hair choices were the first disappointment in this game. Like we were in some Korean MMO made back in 2005 for the age group 11-16. Inexplicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) The announced upcoming additions in 1.2 should go a long way in shoring up the armor options. I am hoping for a few more body types and an ability to re-enter the avatar customization process as the next step. Edited February 20, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RepublicDiplomat Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think LOTRO hit the nail on the head with the wardrobe slots,Would like to see something like that implemented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Wan_Jaynobi Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I saw that someone mentioned the dev who was responsible for the appearance tab in SWG? I'm kind of confused as to why the game didn't come with an appearance tab at launch if that's the case. We have an option to show head pieces or not and a vendor who sells 6 different variations of half the companions in the game, but we all have to be clones of one another?? I regret making a shadow at this point, because he wears a dress - and not even a cool dress. I've considered making a Guardian just to get the heavy armor option and then picking up some smuggler jackets just to look a little fricking different from the other 500 shadows I see run by in their dresses. And then I get to thinking, SWG was WAY ahead of this game in this area, and it launched almost a DECADE ago! Even before the appearance tab (which came shortly before it finally died), we had so many more options. People could run around in a full pink hotpants outfit as a commando if they wanted to, and the jedi weren't stuck in frigging dresses! We actually had an entire profession dedicated to ascetics there - tailors. (Not saying that we need a custom class, but come on, a few more options would be nice) I've seen some people here looking for physical characteristic modification as well (we called those "Image designers" in the old game), and I think we need that as well. What's ironic is that I left the old SWG game because they'd bastardized it and ruined our choices as players (condensing 32 classes into 8, making the game level-based instead of skill-based, ruining the player economy and making crafters useless) and I said I would never go back to that garbage, but here I am playing almost the exact same game with FEWER choice options years later. My Ranger/Rifleman/Medic was forced into the SWG re-education program and became an "officer", but at least he could go shopping for a new wardrobe and forget about his depression for a while. Not here. Here we get the cookie-cutter program, and I feel like we're playing the "communist Russia 1982 MMO experience" where being different is...scary and not encouraged. Come on guys, you can do better than this! Please fix this. Thanks for your cooperation and attention in this matter. Disgruntled player #145 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burcol Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Completely support this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Ney Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue_Leader Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I've been in support of this from the get-go. It's unfortunate that Bioware seems to continually ignore this topic, even during the beta. They don't even bother to comment at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ha Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Tricky's journal.... I spent today not playing TOR trying to get Erickson or any other Dev for that matter to speak to me on these forums about next month's Legacy system, no Dev answered. On the bright side a forum mod, Ms Allison did reply to me, so now I'm quoted in the Dev tracker asking why BioWare Devs never talk to us on the forums any more & getting answered by a very active forum moderator that a Dev did just talk on the forums, but she didn't understand my question & was confused. I wanted to know why the Dev's don't use the General Discussion forums to discuss SWTOR with us, the game's playerbase? Sure, they tell us things on the forums, sometimes if they are going to say anything at all, but when was the last time you have seen a conversation with a Dev in the Dev Tracker? Y'know, a real back & forth multi-part discussion between a BioWare Dev like Georg Zoeller & some forum member? Discussion & debate. There's a difference between getting talked to & having a talk with somebody. BioWare Devs don't talk with anyone here on the forums. They used to. Also, tangenically since Appearance Customization can involve playerships, then it seems like we got some bad news today & have been lied to by other Devs for far too long. Belthazaar: I like my ships but, I was wondering if or when we will be able to purchase, make, or steal a new and different ship beyond the one that we currently get from our class quest? Damion Schubert: Unfortunately, the nature of our ships as central story areas for all of our class content, and all of the associated triggers and cinematics that must therefore be done on the ships, means that giving players new ship models, particularly interiors, is very, very hard for us. We will probably look at addressing this instead by providing a greater sense of ship customization at some point well in the future. But it’s someplace we definitely want to go! Yep, that sucked BioWare. That sucked hard. How about giving us Guild Capital Ship player apartments that we can decorate, but make sure no story cutscenes happen anywhere near the Guild Capital Ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I've been in support of this from the get-go. It's unfortunate that Bioware seems to continually ignore this topic, even during the beta. They don't even bother to comment at all... For the record, this thread goes back like 2 years and 25+k posts and originally spawned from a comment where a dev basically said they did not think appearance tabs would be needed. Since then, their inclusion of different system says all that needs to be said. Maybe you want to argue their points with them but, I'd rather they be developing rather than debating game design options they passed on with forum posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deyjarl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Support it. Players become more attached to characters and want to play them more when they look like they want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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