Tactician operative stealth nerf yet no compensation

[themagickoala]

For my style, I'm talking about Tactician using Critical Surgery (ST) or Regenerating Waves (AoE). Kolto Pack is a much more efficient refresh than Emergency Medpac.

Agree that Kolto Pack is more of a streamlined refresh then EP, but you mentioned *You will never have to hardcast Underworld Medicine again (hopefully you weren't anyway) * wich implied Diagnostics, so.

 

Why would you keep 2 stacks running on 8 raid members all the time? Sounds like a waste of time in most circumstances.

 

Precasting probes is the only way to setup a counterheal to spike damage before it happens, it takes 8-16 GCDs, so can't be done during spike damage, correct? Assuming 20s spike loops, its the only way to go.

Edited March 9, 2020 by themagickoala

[Rion_Starkiller]

Precasting probes is the only way to setup a counterheal to spike damage before it happens, it takes 8 GCDs, so can't be done during spike damage, correct? Assuming 20s spike loops, its the only way to go.

 

Eh I run them on 5-6 people. I guess a lot depends on knowing and predicting your co-healer. If there's a lot of heavy raid wide dmg going out, I pull out the trusty EM+KoltoCloud+Regenerating Waves combo

 

I'm not saying I won't notice the 18s/10% Tactician crit nerf, but I think my brain is focused more on the KP refresh.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Eh I run them on 5-6 people. I guess a lot depends on knowing and predicting your co-healer. If there's a lot of heavy raid wide dmg going out, I pull out the trusty EM+KoltoCloud+Regenerating Waves combo

 

I'm not saying I won't notice the 18s/10% Tactician crit nerf, but I think my brain is focused more on the KP refresh.

 

I think a lot depends on what tacticals you've gotten used to running with. I've been mainly running with diagnostics probe, so hardly ever use kolto infusion anymore, what with injection getting the lower (or instant) cast time.

 

There is the one crafted tactical that makes infusion castable while moving. I might give that one a try on the more mobile type fights after the changes go through. The KP refresh with infustion could make up for the loss in crits.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I agree it's personal preference. I legitimately tried them all.

 

In early 6.0, I ran Diagnostic Probe for Dxun HM prog. After we beat that and went back into NiM, I swapped to Critical Surgery and never looked back. I just don't like healing with Diagnostic Probe. If you're not careful, you will run yourself out of energy using Underworld Medicine + Kolto Waves. Also, I'm under the opinion that Underworld Medicine is garbage without the 5.x autocrit. I only hardcast UM when my alacrity buffs are on... if at all.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[AllisonLightning]

I agree it's personal preference. I legitimately tried them all.

 

In early 6.0, I ran Diagnostic Probe for Dxun HM prog. After we beat that and went back into NiM, I swapped to Critical Surgery and never looked back. I just don't like healing with Diagnostic Probe. If you're not careful, you will run yourself out of energy using Underworld Medicine + Kolto Waves. Also, I'm under the opinion that Underworld Medicine is garbage without the 5.x autocrit. I only hardcast UM when my alacrity buffs are on... if at all.

 

My sentiments exactly. Without the autocrit, it's an energy intensive gamble I can use to proc a TA, usually at the start of a stim boost cycle. Critical Surgery has just been perfect but Underworld Medicine/Kolto Injection is an expensive heal where the guiding knowledge has always been only cast when it's worth it. I heal in a very sustain/sustain single target fashion so the waves tactical just isn't worth it to give Kolto Waves back the kick it had in 5.10.

 

I've always specced into the HoT and periodic restoration so for me, Infusion is an essential cast- one of my favourite moments when I was rewatching a Brontes team kill was the tank going far getting ticks from probes/nanotech/infusion and their health up and up- full. I heavily use Infusion so I know the probe refresh won't make up for the crit loss which affects so much. I'm downloading PTS tomorrow while I'm at work but the loss of crit, theorycrafting should even have a knock on effect on TA generation as well.

I mean if they'd just unhook the utility and give us the burst and HoT automatically as Medicine/Sawbones (still worth taking for double probes and DCD heal), I feel like it would go a long ways to accommodate nerfing the set for the sake of Concealment.

 

I don't think they can balance properly if they don't understand our HPS generation after designing our class around HoTs, sustain and positional punishment after all these years. I mean I'm not sitting here and insisting we should be the most powerful because we're the most difficult/ high APM ceiling healing class. But our class should be able to handle or compensate for our lack of burst and a huge part of that is our HPS generation which has the most stringent requirements for a corresponding EHPS- including things going very wrong with heals that can't keep up.

 

It's also how you keep endgame PvE content balanced and not have, one healer class whose OP skillset overpowers the content. Sorc being too strong- they can bubble and mitigate damage and heal to the point it becomes worth it to run two of them, mercs- this current expansion and simply outbursting/DCD avoiding mechanics, so you run two of them. No one runs dual operative and we're considered the worst class in the game to double stack (outside of Gods, then sorcs are as well- except for one of the fights).

Ranked brings a whole other level of criteria where you don't want a situation where 'you don't run this healer against this team's healer who is the best class for it and your group is screwed'.

 

I really think they need to make two versions of all the sets and tacticals, a PvE version and one that only works in PvP. It's worsening the friction between PvE and PvP players and making both groups frustrated.

Edited March 10, 2020 by AllisonLightning

[JediMasterAlex]

Stop writing in this thread if you refuse to see the sirc/sin argument. IT IS SIN, SORC AND OPER who needed nerf not only oper. Yet both sin and sorc get some compensation buff while oper gets only nerf. Until you explain why only oper gets nothing while sin was much stronger class for sr as oper and sorc wasn't far from both oper and sin there is no sense to listen to you

 

Because ops don't need the compensation, plus they might still get it. They haven't released the additional agent/bounty hunter changes yet.

 

Ranked PvP's imbalances to him outweigh anything else which is wrong when it causes the same negative effects to be passed along to PvE. I'm sick as hell of even in a state of where operative healers are currently tuned (where double merc is even better than merc/op) because it's still a struggle for new operative healers to stay on their classes during progression and not get switched. I tried to help an operative healer in that position learn but he ended up just running merc.

 

This is a fair criticism. I'm absolutely biased in this matter. Even still, I believe balance for ranked pvp does matter more than it does for pve. It's not that I'm totally insensitive to the needs of pvers, but I really don't want Bioware reverting these nerfs and going for some weaker nerf for conc ops. I still believe the solution is simply to buff the dedicated healer sets or make new ones.

[omaan]

Because ops don't need the compensation, plus they might still get it. They haven't released the additional agent/bounty hunter changes yet.

 

 

 

.

 

And on what your statement is actually based on? I play operative and i can confirm that its sustained damage is pretty garbage. Lacerete/punches barely doing any serious damage while the only hope for operative is burst tactical and set bonus. With set bonus nerf opers burst won't be any viable while sustained damage will remain garbage

[Anyaka_Jedi]

My sentiments exactly. Without the autocrit, it's an energy intensive gamble I can use to proc a TA, usually at the start of a stim boost cycle. Critical Surgery has just been perfect but Underworld Medicine/Kolto Injection is an expensive heal where the guiding knowledge has always been only cast when it's worth it. I heal in a very sustain/sustain single target fashion so the waves tactical just isn't worth it to give Kolto Waves back the kick it had in 5.10.

 

I've always specced into the HoT and periodic restoration so for me, Infusion is an essential cast- one of my favourite moments when I was rewatching a Brontes team kill was the tank going far getting ticks from probes/nanotech/infusion and their health up and up- full. I heavily use Infusion so I know the probe refresh won't make up for the crit loss which affects so much. I'm downloading PTS tomorrow while I'm at work but the loss of crit, theorycrafting should even have a knock on effect on TA generation as well.

I mean if they'd just unhook the utility and give us the burst and HoT automatically as Medicine/Sawbones (still worth taking for double probes and DCD heal), I feel like it would go a long ways to accommodate nerfing the set for the sake of Concealment.

 

I don't think they can balance properly if they don't understand our HPS generation after designing our class around HoTs, sustain and positional punishment after all these years. I mean I'm not sitting here and insisting we should be the most powerful because we're the most difficult/ high APM ceiling healing class. But our class should be able to handle or compensate for our lack of burst and a huge part of that is our HPS generation which has the most stringent requirements for a corresponding EHPS- including things going very wrong with heals that can't keep up.

 

It's also how you keep endgame PvE content balanced and not have, one healer class whose OP skillset overpowers the content. Sorc being too strong- they can bubble and mitigate damage and heal to the point it becomes worth it to run two of them, mercs- this current expansion and simply outbursting/DCD avoiding mechanics, so you run two of them. No one runs dual operative and we're considered the worst class in the game to double stack (outside of Gods, then sorcs are as well- except for one of the fights).

Ranked brings a whole other level of criteria where you don't want a situation where 'you don't run this healer against this team's healer who is the best class for it and your group is screwed'.

 

I really think they need to make two versions of all the sets and tacticals, a PvE version and one that only works in PvP. It's worsening the friction between PvE and PvP players and making both groups frustrated.

 

I actually find your comments in this thread disingenious. SO its ok for operatives to have their shinies, but not sin tanks....

Edited March 10, 2020 by Anyaka_Jedi

[AllisonLightning]

I actually find your comments in this thread disingenious. SO its ok for operatives to have their shinies, but not sin tanks....

 

I have no problem with sin tanks being able to have their unconventional set bonus that some of you run and don't think much of Bioware's approach to balancing via set armor. I wasn't going after the current live incarnation of sins. I was addressing the criticisms brought against a person highlighting an ability from last expansion which hurt non sin tanks immensely as someone who wasn't out of touch. Assassin tanks still have a majority in this expansion and most NiM teams either run one or both- it's just not as prevalent for a dual sin tank combo. They're still decent tanks with amazing utility and aren't considered less viable than the other two tanks the way operatives do as healers every time they affect the mediocre burst we do have, at the same time as everything else.

 

What we do have keeps the class, the least played healing class from being relegated by the other two when the primary weakness is a key requirement for healers on the NiM/MM level. It's not about shinies and it's rather disingenuous of you to compare this to a comment about the force speed cheese and defending the tank who pointed it out to this, especially since I didn't cite an opinion about your current set bonuses or tacticals or the state of the class.

[themagickoala]

Eh I run them on 5-6 people. I guess a lot depends on knowing and predicting your co-healer. If there's a lot of heavy raid wide dmg going out, I pull out the trusty EM+KoltoCloud+Regenerating Waves combo

 

Thats an interesting approach, i may give a go with Critical Surgery Diag Probe may not the worth the energy tradeoff (Usually going for UM is only reliable when you stimboost it for those windows, so)

 

Also, there's a interesting post about how BW is approaching class changes since 5x:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043

 

The deeper reason for a “buff” or a “nerf” lies in a Discipline’s ability to perform at their target DPS (for damage dealers), HPS (for healers), or DTPS (for tanks). The target DPS, HPS, and DTPS values determine which content (Veteran Operations, Master Uprisings, etc.) players can successfully complete in a given set of gear. And in PvP situations, they determine the speed of player kill times and the ability for healers and tanks to extend the life of an ally under attack.

 

As the OP and other pointed, i don't think taking HPS (not even EHPS!) raw numbers into account makes for a justified nerf. Also, balancing pvp towards pure TTK/TTH is very unreliable, since stunlocks, interrupts and LoS pay a great deal to those numbers.

Edited March 10, 2020 by themagickoala

[Anyaka_Jedi]

They're still decent tanks with amazing utility and aren't considered less viable than the other two tanks the way operatives do as healers every time they affect the mediocre burst we do have, at the same time as everything else.

 

What we do have keeps the class, the least played healing class from being relegated by the other two when the primary weakness is a key requirement for healers on the NiM/MM level.'

 

Now please dont exagerate, the only healer class that is allowed to be crying in 6.0 are sorcs. DO you see 2 sorcs being chosen in NiM content? Not preferably, 2 operatives yes. Operatives have always been AOE sustained healers with HOTS. Burst has always been the merc specialty. SO i dont see operatives being relagated even with this change, given the sorc healer changes and the merc healer nerf that is bound to come.

[JediMasterAlex]

And on what your statement is actually based on? I play operative and i can confirm that its sustained damage is pretty garbage. Lacerete/punches barely doing any serious damage while the only hope for operative is burst tactical and set bonus. With set bonus nerf opers burst won't be any viable while sustained damage will remain garbage

 

In the new pts patch, ops are getting the same kind of compensation as sorcs and sins, so you can stop complaining now.

[AllisonLightning]

Now please dont exagerate, the only healer class that is allowed to be crying in 6.0 are sorcs. DO you see 2 sorcs being chosen in NiM content? Not preferably, 2 operatives yes. Operatives have always been AOE sustained healers with HOTS. Burst has always been the merc specialty. SO i dont see operatives being relagated even with this change, given the sorc healer changes and the merc healer nerf that is bound to come.

 

Two operatives in zero VE stacks are not optimal. There's barely a handful of fights where you could get away with it and you wouldn't want to try it. All healers can single target heal. All NiM/MM healers are expected to be able to handle spikes, the issue has been across several expansions and easily repeated where operatives have been tuned to put out the numbers but can't because of class design as yes, our burst is barebones- but is meant to be there, just punishing if we haven't set up our sustain.

 

Operatives have AoE potential. But between our set bonus changes among other things- we are sustain primarily with mid range AoE to back it up. A bunch of those things act together that to someone who can't see beyond kolto wave spam, thinks that is what gives us our kick- an energy intensive situational heal.

We are not AoE healers, we have things in out toolkit and the best way to tell this is the healing challenge on Raptus, a good operative definitely punches up there with a merc and sorc because we're designed to have the strongest single target sustain.

 

No, we should never have a merc or sorc's burst (in a brief window from near zero, even a sorc can outburst an operative now) but we need to have an acceptable for NiM/MM capacity for the barebones burst, supported by our sustain. It's critical surgery and forcing HoT ticks as healed.

 

Sorc healers spent so long as the meta they don't understand what it truly means to be sidelined as a healing class. Most sorcs weren't forced or asked by anyone to play something else- they simply didn't want to work hard the way operatives have had to work hard always to meet checks. My sympathies go to sorc healers who have been still playing their class and need a buff (sorc healers are still able to do NiM) but seriously, the only double healer comp people generally run is merc. And ironically- often the double healer comp in a NiM Gods fight is two mercs.

 

I don't want my co healers to be nerfed into the ground. I want all of us to be able to do our jobs well enough and viably enough in MM/NiM to be worthy of an equal inclusion.

 

I posted that earlier but then it's not nearly as exciting as trying to get an argument or not understanding how class balance affects things in PvE and PvP, as well as other specs in an Advanced Class when targeting one branch which was what this thread was about.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

If Tactician no longer resets Backblast with TO, that’s quite a huge nerf to both Scrapper, and Viral Elements in Ruffian.

 

TO resets ruffian's version of backblast baseline though.

[Rion_Starkiller]

 

I've always specced into the HoT and periodic restoration so for me, Infusion is an essential cast- one of my favourite moments when I was rewatching a Brontes team kill was the tank going far getting ticks from probes/nanotech/infusion and their health up and up- full. I heavily use Infusion so I know the probe refresh won't make up for the crit loss which affects so much. I'm downloading PTS tomorrow while I'm at work but the loss of crit, theorycrafting should even have a knock on effect on TA generation as well.

I mean if they'd just unhook the utility and give us the burst and HoT automatically as Medicine/Sawbones (still worth taking for double probes and DCD heal), I feel like it would go a long ways to accommodate nerfing the set for the sake of Concealment.

 

I don't think they can balance properly if they don't understand our HPS generation after designing our class around HoTs, sustain and positional punishment after all these years. I mean I'm not sitting here and insisting we should be the most powerful because we're the most difficult/ high APM ceiling healing class. But our class should be able to handle or compensate for our lack of burst and a huge part of that is our HPS generation which has the most stringent requirements for a corresponding EHPS- including things going very wrong with heals that can't keep up.

 

It's also how you keep endgame PvE content balanced and not have, one healer class whose OP skillset overpowers the content. Sorc being too strong- they can bubble and mitigate damage and heal to the point it becomes worth it to run two of them, mercs- this current expansion and simply outbursting/DCD avoiding mechanics, so you run two of them. No one runs dual operative and we're considered the worst class in the game to double stack (outside of Gods, then sorcs are as well- except for one of the fights).

Ranked brings a whole other level of criteria where you don't want a situation where 'you don't run this healer against this team's healer who is the best class for it and your group is screwed'.

 

I really think they need to make two versions of all the sets and tacticals, a PvE version and one that only works in PvP. It's worsening the friction between PvE and PvP players and making both groups frustrated.

 

Yeah, I run the PR amps too. I'm curious how the Tactician set's crit loss will affect us as healers. I'd be fine with it dropping to 10%, but that 8 second gap leaves me a bit skeptical.

 

I plan to hop on the PTS later this week to check out dxun, but unfortunately, it will only be as concealment/ruffian. So i'm interested to know how your healing experience goes once you have a chance to test on PTS.

 

TO resets ruffian's version of backblast baseline though.

 

Yeah, I'm guessing the screenshot I saw was from healer POV -- which doesn't reset backblast -- brief moment of panic

Edited March 11, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[Rion_Starkiller]

Thats an interesting approach, i may give a go with Critical Surgery Diag Probe may not the worth the energy tradeoff (Usually going for UM is only reliable when you stimboost it for those windows, so)

 

Also, there's a interesting post about how BW is approaching class changes since 5x:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043

 

As the OP and other pointed, i don't think taking HPS (not even EHPS!) raw numbers into account makes for a justified nerf. Also, balancing pvp towards pure TTK/TTH is very unreliable, since stunlocks, interrupts and LoS pay a great deal to those numbers.

 

Play what you like, imo. But if you do try critical surgery, I think you will find that you can cast Kolto Waves a lot more, if needed, because energy management is far easier. And if you have an "Oh shizz!" moment, your Emergency Medpac can get a double autocrit from Kolto Pack/Infusion and sub 50% health.

 

As for class balance, it's funny how strong burst specs are right now if the devs are going by those targets still, haha

Edited March 10, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[TrixxieTriss]

This unfairness for class balance is outrageous when assassin and sorcerer main set bonuses are nerfed yet they get some compensation with other damage passive abilities buff,however you also make stealth nerf to operative tactician set bonus without mentioning it on forum AND not buffing anything instead like you did with sorcs and sins.

 

How about fairness and equity??

 

Dude, you have the best 1v1 class in the game. Why are you whining about Sorc’s in another thread. You are totally blowing every change up cause it doesn’t suit your class and you. L2P

[Anyaka_Jedi]

Dude, you have the best 1v1 class in the game. Why are you whining about Sorc’s in another thread. You are totally blowing every change up cause it doesn’t suit your class and you. L2P

 

O, there's been a definite trend of ppl going to threads that is outside their garden just to tread on somebody elses geraniums...

[omaan]

Dude, you have the best 1v1 class in the game. Why are you whining about Sorc’s in another thread. You are totally blowing every change up cause it doesn’t suit your class and you. L2P

 

SHOULD i remind you again i have four top 3 characters and 6 gold classes while you play regs? L2p issue is YOUR ISSUE, those who aren't ranked players can't talk about skill issues.

 

Iam saying what IS FAIR considering that fotm spots look like this: sin>oper>sorc/mara there is NO REASON TO COMPENSATE NERFS ONLY TO SORC AND Sin while oper gets only NERF. I know it is difficult to understand this for a player who is more busy with carrying balls to enemy base or capturing turrets on alderaan instead of fighting skilled players on the edge of maximum power so keep your comments back pls. You should comment on how unbalanced sin double sap is when they capture grass while two enemies guarding it

Edited March 11, 2020 by omaan

[omaan]

In the new pts patch, ops are getting the same kind of compensation as sorcs and sins, so you can stop complaining now.

 

Can you write more specifics?

Edited March 11, 2020 by omaan

[UltraFlashStar]

I’m fine with the nerfs to my main (Scoundrel) and I’m actually looking forward to it. To many people playing it nowadays. Like it back in 5.0 where there was a decently small/medium number of Scoundrel/Operatives.

 

Yesterday I had a normal reg match, where 10/16 of the match was all Operatives/Scoundrels.

Edited March 11, 2020 by UltraFlashStar

[JediMasterAlex]

Can you write more specifics?

 

From the theorycrafting discord:

 

Concealment

Prey on the Weak

Old: Laceration deals 5% more damage to targets affected by your Acid Blade.

New: Laceration deals 10% more damage to targets affected by your Acid Blade.

 

Calculated Frenzy

Old: Backstab grants Calculated Frenzy, which increases ranged and tech critical chance by 5% for 15 seconds. In addition, damage dealt by Veiled Strike causes the target to become susceptible for 45 seconds. Susceptible targets take 5% more damage from tech attacks."

New: Backstab grants Calculated Frenzy, which increases ranged and tech critical chance by 10% for 15 seconds. In addition, damage dealt by Veiled Strike causes the target to become susceptible for 45 seconds. Susceptible targets take 5% more damage from tech attacks.

 

Lethality

Cut Down

Old: Increases the damage dealt by Lethal Strike, Overload Shot, and Noxious Knives by 5%.

New: Increases the damage dealt by Lethal Strike, Overload Shot, and Noxious Knives by 15%.

 

Acidic Compounds

Old: Toxic Blast deals 5% more damage and Corrosive Grenade has a 10% chance to deal its damage twice whenever it harms a target.

New: Toxic Blast deals 10% more damage and Corrosive Grenade has a 10% chance to deal its damage twice whenever it harms a target.

Edited March 11, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[TrixxieTriss]

SHOULD i remind you again i have four top 3 characters and 6 gold classes while you play regs? L2p issue is YOUR ISSUE, those who aren't ranked players can't talk about skill issues.

 

Iam saying what IS FAIR considering that fotm spots look like this: sin>oper>sorc/mara there is NO REASON TO COMPENSATE NERFS ONLY TO SORC AND Sin while oper gets only NERF. I know it is difficult to understand this for a player who is more busy with carrying balls to enemy base or capturing turrets on alderaan instead of fighting skilled players on the edge of maximum power so keep your comments back pls. You should comment on how unbalanced sin double sap is when they capture grass while two enemies guarding it

 

If your class wasn’t also at the top of the meta, I wouldn’t have said L2P. I also wouldn’t have said it if you weren’t on the best 1v1 class in the game.

 

And I think you know why I can’t play ranked, but let me explain it before you go throwing the old “you’re a reg player and don’t count” argument back in my face.

It’s not because I don’t want to, it’s because my ping is so F’ing high that it’s impossible. Half the time I’m dead before my DCD even activates or I have to guess what’s about to happen, which leads to mistakes. Even if I don’t get globaled because of the lag, my Dps suffers because of the lag. ie, I will never, ever get the leap in first on my Jugg or Mara vs another Warrior (unless their lag is even worse than mine). That example goes for many situations.

So instead of me getting raged at in ranked for lower than expected dps or making mistakes (due to guessing), I stick to a format that doesn’t affect people’s ratings in ranked, which I’m sure you would be grateful for if I was on your team.

But none of that means I can’t play or don’t know anything.

 

The only reason I’ve even commented in this thread is because of that silly thread you made about Sorcs needing more of a nerf. Because you then come here and demand a buff for yourself.

It sounds to me like sins and Sorcs give you problems and if you are on an operative, then it is a L2P issue. Which I didn’t necessarily mean you need to L2P, and I probably should have said, learn to get better against better players. Because if those classes are constantly beating you, then it’s the players being better or the better players are mainly playing those classes.

 

You need to decide wether you should ask for a buff for operatives or demand Sorcs get nerfed more. Because when you come to the forums and make two threads that demand both, it really does look like you want your own class to be the FOTM class so you can dominate everyone else.

[TrixxieTriss]

For better or worse, balance in this game affects both pvp and pve. But ranked pvp is the only place it actually matters, because the different classes directly compete against each other. As long as every class can make the necessary dps/heal checks and clear all the content, the dps hierarchy for pve really doesn't matter except to people that only play "meta" classes all the time.

 

I disagree and you know I’m a keen pvp. Every class needs to be balanced for pve and pvp to full fill the “role” they are supposed to represent. ie all healing classes should be able to do the same HPS or they aren’t viable in pve content and will be left out of raids if the other classes perform better.

 

The problem as I see it is Bioware don’t have the correct methodology of balancing classes. It’s totally flawed for both pve and pvp because it’s all done on training dummies and not actual combat that shows how good or bad the class is when good players use them. They also don’t do the DPS/HPS balancing in conjunction with Survivability or special talents at the same time.

 

This is where the problems begin and are then Amplified when they try and balance across pve and pvp. Which can also be broken down into ranked pvp vs objective pvp vs story pve vs veteran pve vs master mode pve.

Different parts of the game require different tactics and some classes perform better or worse than others when those different play styles are used.

 

Bioware have the means to fix it and could change this by splitting the utilities and adding a second skill tree that is seperate for pvp.

They could also make gear sets that work better in pvp and others that work better in pve. People could still wear either, but BiS would be to use the ones designed for the content.

It’s not like they didn’t have time to do this when you consider how many worthless generic sets they actually made for 6.0. They could have removed half those sets and spent the time making specific content sets. Then they could have used them to better balance the classes around the different content.

 

I really do not think pvp (ranked or otherwise) is more important with balancing. And I don’t agree with your assessment that it matters more in pvp.

 

Except sorc is not nearly on the same level as deception sin and concealment op lol. This isn't up for debate, you're just posting nonsense.

 

On this we agree. sins and Ops are higher in the hierarchy.

And Sorcs aren’t a push over and free kill anymore. They finally have teeth after 3-4 years of being right at the bottom of the meta. But as history has shown, when ever Sorcs become viable, people scream for Nerfs instead of learning to adapt to the new meta.

Are they over tuned? I don’t think the class abilities or utilities are. If anything the gearing is the issue and not the class. I don’t even like the set bonuses because they make the class feel off. One makes the rotation super easy and the other makes it feel super clunky.

 

IMO, they should balance all classes without any set bonus gear and then consider how to add set bonuses. It would have to make balancing easier because if a set makes the class too strong or too weak, they can tweak it and not have to play around with any class abilities.

The whole method is completely backwards, but most of the things Bioware do is the opposite of logic.

Edited March 13, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[AllisonLightning]

I disagree and you know I’m a keen pvp. Every class needs to be balanced for pve and pvp to full fill the “role” they are supposed to represent. ie all healing classes should be able to do the same HPS or they aren’t viable in pve content and will be left out of raids if the other classes perform better.

 

The problem as I see it is Bioware don’t have the correct methodology of balancing classes. It’s totally flawed for both pve and pvp because it’s all done on training dummies and not actual combat that shows how good or bad the class is when good players use them. They also don’t do the DPS/HPS balancing in conjunction with Survivability or special talents at the same time.

 

This is where the problems begin and are then Amplified when they try and balance across pve and pvp. Which can also be broken down into ranked pvp vs objective pvp vs story pve vs veteran pve vs master mode pve.

Different parts of the game require different tactics and some classes perform better or worse than others when those different play styles are used.

 

 

It comes down to EHPS and how well it can go where it needs to which is why raw HPS numbers are the wrong metric to go by or even a sustained damage enviroment. How well can this healer triage based on their skill set, how well can they keep a tank up and so on as a more specific example but what you said was very right and why balancing in this game has gone to hell.

Edited March 12, 2020 by AllisonLightning