I can't be the only person wanting Operatives/Scoundrels NERFED HARD.....

[TrixxieTriss]

A lot of utilities in this game could be nerfed/removed without even hurting pve. Much of the problem child utilities were created for pvp to begin with.

 

I’ve never understood why Bioware didn’t just introduce a pvp only utility tree. How many times have we suggested it? Even going back before the utility tree introduction.

[Lupolus]

No, you only need to learn-to-play

[TrixxieTriss]

No, you only need to learn-to-play

 

And there is that too. Most nerf calls are because people don’t want to relearn after a meta change. But it doesn’t help when people make the class FOTM by calling for Nerfs. All it does is make more people play it and then you have class stacking problems. Which are magnified worse than normal when it’s operatives or Sins or a mix. Both of which are now over represented.

[DavidAtkinson]

And there is that too. Most nerf calls are because people don’t want to relearn after a meta change. But it doesn’t help when people make the class FOTM by calling for Nerfs. All it does is make more people play it and then you have class stacking problems. Which are magnified worse than normal when it’s operatives or Sins or a mix. Both of which are now over represented.

 

Do you even play this game ?

 

By the way.. before we end up actually nerfing/buffing anything, we have take a look at other things that are more game breaking: double vanish , dps that have guard , and marauder tactical that basically made them a semi stealth... whatever class.

 

These shouldn't be in PVP , but hey.. what do I know ?

 

Also, don't get your hopes up. Like with 5.0 class balance, it's not very likely that the tons of threads and feedback given over these 4 months will be ever taken into consideration. So whatever you complain about here will most likely last another.. 2 years . Whatever you think is OP is just subjective. It's working as intended for the devs .

 

It took them 4 months to come up with the class balance changes we get tomorrow.

 

Enjoy the game guys .

[merovejec]

Its not really a nerf that they need, its more a rework of this class. This class simply has it all. They have high burst dps (in Concealment spec), selfheals, cc/sap/stun options, stealth, tricky immunity/defense stuff. For example a sniper is similar, has the same cc/stuns and burst damage, yet it lacks the stealth, rolls are different and no selfheals (unless speced).

 

I can go over other classes but overall the operative always has something more than the other classes. So maybe a tweak in how the class works could be in place.

[TrixxieTriss]

The thing is at what point do we draw the line of where a class that is somewhat hard to play can get rewarded for it vs the somewhat more difficult class just always wins. plus concealment is not even That hard to play there are a bunch of other specs that are harder to play for less reward think of stuff like carnage. i know you dont mean it like this but if we take your logic to the extreme you can have a class that is literly a 100% win if you are a god altho not a single human will be able to play it is just a godmode if you could again in theory. For me the power of a more dificult class should be in its flexibility not its in its output directly this is wy stuff like the roll is so uterly insane since its a what 12 second DCD with almost 0 counterplay yes you need to be decent at timing it especialy with the delay and latency ect but even with that most average operatives can do this with almost 90% succes rate making it rather easy to do. and there are more things operative has like there burst for example is one. it is from what i have played of operative not that hard to pull of i would even say that TK/Lings opener/burst is more complex and harder to exectute since it one requires more apm and the chance that you will be under preshure in a pvp scenario is also allot higer so again bye your logic TK/Ling's burst should be higer then that of concealment and carnage should be higer then that ect ect.....so that whould still put operative in the catogory of over preforming since well if i remeber correctly.

 

melee DoT - 105% target dps

melee burst - 100% target dps

ranged DoT - 100% target dps

ranged burst - 95% target dps

 

Is what Bioware sees as balanced so we can asume the burst output of classes should folow that same logic

and then again there are classes that dont folow this pattern.Its not that i think this logic of BW if it actuly is there's. It has been a while and i cant find a link to the place i read this but i swear it was a BW post somewhere.

I think its horrebly flawed since you dont look at for example the DCDs Damadge reductions kiting tools healing ect. so bye any form of logic i try and find operative is always the one that brakes it so either every other class does not fit any logical plan or its operative that is the outlier

(sorry if this is a bit messy writing this way to late in the night/morning ?)

 

Yep, I read the same Bioware post years ago. It’s completely flawed and the fact they only balance around dps on a static parsing dummy is so ridiculous.

 

They don’t take DCDs into account when they balance the dps output. And that’s one of the biggest reasons we have imbalance.

 

Add to the fact that many classes require being attacked to actually build procs or do a proper rotation and you can start to see how absolutely ridiculous their methodology is balancing on a parsing dummy which doesn’t hit back.

 

You also have the problem of how the class plays in actual combat. You could have the biggest dps output on a dummy, but if you can’t optimise it in actual game play, it’s absolutely useless.

 

Just on your god mode point. Anyone who is that good can make the absolute worse classes in the game seem OP as hell.

Edited February 10, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[Raansu]

Its not really a nerf that they need, its more a rework of this class. This class simply has it all. They have high burst dps (in Concealment spec), selfheals, cc/sap/stun options, stealth, tricky immunity/defense stuff. For example a sniper is similar, has the same cc/stuns and burst damage, yet it lacks the stealth, rolls are different and no selfheals (unless speced).

 

I can go over other classes but overall the operative always has something more than the other classes. So maybe a tweak in how the class works could be in place.

 

Honestly, every class needs a rework right now. The DCD creep over the years has simply gotten out of hand.

[merovejec]

Honestly, every class needs a rework right now. The DCD creep over the years has simply gotten out of hand.

 

There are definitely classes that have been fine for some time. An idea case is the sent/mara. The Merc/Mando nerf was also well. Sage/Sorc are also in a good place atm. Classes that do need fixing is (if i go by imp terminology) sniper, operative, jugg, PT, sin

[Lhancelot]

Honestly, every class needs a rework right now. The DCD creep over the years has simply gotten out of hand.

 

Exactly. I mean, they revamped gearing systems so many times I have lost count. They have redone conquest (made it worse but I digress,) and have even "updated" crafting (making it complete garbage but I digress!)

 

Why can they not "revamp" or "update" class abilities?

 

They have amped up movement boosts, DCDs, gap closers, basically every class has been given extraordinary gimmick-abilities which not only have proven impossible to balance but have ruined the PVP WZs by minimizing the maps natural obstacles that make for more compelling strategic battles.

 

When everyone is porting, leaping, rolling all over the effing map, the map no longer serves it's purpose. When classes all have DCDs that heal to full, or when classes can stealth out of combat essentially resetting the fight, it's just too much.

 

They have destroyed PVP on this game with their constant stacking of class abilities that never were properly implemented with balance initially. Lots of imbalanced, overpowered abilities stacked on top of more the same.

[Raansu]

Exactly. I mean, they revamped gearing systems so many times I have lost count. They have redone conquest (made it worse but I digress,) and have even "updated" crafting (making it complete garbage but I digress!)

 

Why can they not "revamp" or "update" class abilities?

 

They have amped up movement boosts, DCDs, gap closers, basically every class has been given extraordinary gimmick-abilities which not only have proven impossible to balance but have ruined the PVP WZs by minimizing the maps natural obstacles that make for more compelling strategic battles.

 

When everyone is porting, leaping, rolling all over the effing map, the map no longer serves it's purpose. When classes all have DCDs that heal to full, or when classes can stealth out of combat essentially resetting the fight, it's just too much.

 

They have destroyed PVP on this game with their constant stacking of class abilities that never were properly implemented with balance initially. Lots of imbalanced, overpowered abilities stacked on top of more the same.

 

Yep, and add on to the fact that many CD's were spec specific and then changed to base class along with a lot of utilities that used to be way up in the skill trees basically making them spec specific utilities are now across the board which breaks a lot of things. To add on the movement stuff, I remember being vehemently being against the ability to cast channeled abilities on the move. One of the drawbacks of being a ranged class was supposed to be that certain skills root you in place to benefit from the big damage they were supposed to give.

[Lhancelot]

To add on the movement stuff, I remember being vehemently being against the ability to cast channeled abilities on the move. One of the drawbacks of being a ranged class was supposed to be that certain skills root you in place to benefit from the big damage they were supposed to give.

 

That's a good point about channeled abilities on the move. I'd like to add not only does it add too much mobility as a ranged but it looks dumb as fekk, amirite?

 

***Sorc healer channeling Innervate on the move looks like you are chasing someone trying to tickle them my god it looks so dumb!*** (Could they not have changed the animation if they going to add mobility to the channeled ability?)

Edited February 10, 2020 by Lhancelot

[Darkchip]

Honestly all the classes need a rework at this points.

 

They have just been adding more and more to each class be it defencives or attack based cooldowns that nearly all the classes are just weird.

 

Look at mercs they got given not only a reflect but a massive heal on top of having a backpeddel, kolto overload which is better then powertechs, energy shield, consusive shot and more yet look at powertech what do they have oh kolto overload and energy shield..... why does the dps based advance class have better defences then the tanking advance class.

 

They seriously need to sit down and look at these classes because alot of the changes they have done just feel not only weird but tips the balance of power to much, we have already talked about Operatives alot in this chat and yes they have alot of good powerful cooldowns with a few requireing good timing to use in the rolls but alot of classes need a rework.

[DzastinBiberi]

Funny thing is, I can pull 60k backstabs with my op easy and they are strong due to rolls, perfect timed rolls are OP, add healing and autocrits, no sin can beat an op.

[TrixxieTriss]

That's a good point about channeled abilities on the move. I'd like to add not only does it add too much mobility as a ranged but it looks dumb as fekk, amirite?

 

***Sorc healer channeling Innervate on the move looks like you are chasing someone trying to tickle them my god it looks so dumb!*** (Could they not have changed the animation if they going to add mobility to the channeled ability?)

 

Just thought of a good name for a healer. “Tickle Monster”

[mothbanquet]

That's a good point about channeled abilities on the move. I'd like to add not only does it add too much mobility as a ranged but it looks dumb as fekk, amirite?

 

***Sorc healer channeling Innervate on the move looks like you are chasing someone trying to tickle them my god it looks so dumb!*** (Could they not have changed the animation if they going to add mobility to the channeled ability?)

 

It looks like they're trying to do something that would get them sued for sexual harrassment.

[Lhancelot]

Just thought of a good name for a healer. “Tickle Monster”

 

I actually never noticed, till someone mentioned it in a WZ and I was like, damn they right...

[KendraP]

If they remove the ability to cast healing trance while moving, anyone playing a sage healer may as well reroll merc, if they havent already.

[timovdt]

 

Just on your god mode point. Anyone who is that good can make the absolute worse classes in the game seem OP as hell.

 

Well yes the thing is it is beyond any human to do this its more of a thinking exerscice.

The point i was trying to prove is that any form balance should not be made around Numbers VS Skill expression

OR numbers And skill expresion as both have negative effects. a part of the balance should also include the actuall feel of the the class of playing it and against it.As we will never have a class of sutch complexity as i mentioned the requirement to take something to its end or a a verry high level is not even unlikely its actuly relatively common with practice so you will always run into trouble when people get there. this is often wy mmo pvp is so fun for everyone at the start of one but is one of the most frustrating and hard things to get into the later you join as verry often you have certain classes balanced around numbers vs skill while others will get the reverse .

 

so lets say if we take a new player put them on a lower skilled class they will quite often still be unable to win vs a not so new player that is playing worse on a more advanced class as the numbers on simpler classes are verry often tuned down vs the more complex classes. and if this is not the case then most of the player base will play the less complex class this is wy sorcs often spike in popularity as there step in level is quite low vs something like a marauder or an operative. so once sorcs get numbers they can compete people swap over add on top the visuals ect and you get a massive popularity spike same with juggs and especialy vengance and it always seems to turn out quite horrebly causing massive hate towards classes and players especialy from if its the other way around and stuff like jugg and sorc are in a horrible spot while lets take operative is extremly powerfull since a class that already has more outplay tools and is just bye that already extremly powerfull gets numbers that completly overshadow the less complex/flexible classes you get what we have now where a good operative atm is as close to a godmode as you are going to get outside of a few instances in other games. im not saying btw that there should be no room for out play skills or operatives and the likes should have lower numbers then the easyer classes but we need to hit a sweetspot where both kinds of classes can have there moments and make you feel good witch atm is just not the case in swtor's pvp atm if you actuly want to have fun you are playing sin or operative.

other classes just feel as if they are takin part in some one else there game instead of having there own plan they can execute and there own will they can try and impose on the game.

Im not 100% sure wy this is atleast for me i cant speak for everyone but i do think there is some truth to my words when i say pvp atm is not Fun for alot of classes .

 

So I Whould say instead of trying to ask for number changes and just going gun ho as BW tends to do is to have an actual conversation with people from all skill levels of all the specs and classes to figure out a way a feeling of influence to all players from diffrent skill levels in pvp, As the gun ho pure number based balancing BW has done in the last few years has IMO almost destroyed the pvp of this game and that is verry verry bad for the long term survival of the game.

[Raansu]

If they remove the ability to cast healing trance while moving, anyone playing a sage healer may as well reroll merc, if they havent already.

 

Then turn it into an instant cast HoT with weaker heals.

 

Abilities need to heave compromises. One of the problems with pvp now a days is BW keeps chipping away at those compromises because herp derp solo arenas are 4 dps vs 4 dps 99% of the time.

 

*You get a reflect, and you get a reflect! H2F!? You get that too!!!! Speed boosts and root breakers? Everyone gets one! Casting? Who needs that!? Cast on the mooooove!*

 

PvP has never been perfect, but it was 10x better before arenas came out. There's too much utility now to compensate for the unbalanced nature of 4v4 arenas.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Raansu

[Lhancelot]

Then turn it into an instant cast HoT with weaker heals.

 

Abilities need to heave compromises. One of the problems with pvp now a days is BW keeps chipping away at those compromises because herp derp solo arenas are 4 dps vs 4 dps 99% of the time.

 

*You get a reflect, and you get a reflect! H2F!? You get that too!!!! Speed boosts and root breakers? Everyone gets one! Casting? Who needs that!? Cast on the mooooove!*

 

PvP has never been perfect, but it was 10x better before arenas came out. There's too much utility now to compensate for the unbalanced nature of 4v4 arenas.

 

And worse of all, they just keep piling crap on top of crap making it more and more imbalanced, and HARDER to balance if they ever cared to try, that is.

 

They haven't done a complete balance update in years though. One can hope that the newly revamped Anthem will bring in money that it's sucking from everything else so that once it's a raving success, it's money will trickle back to SWTOR offering them resources to refine and fine tune class balance and other much needed features.

 

I know it doesn't work like this, but can we just pretend it does? I mean we make lots of other BS claims about why the game is a disaster let's just pretend Anthem can bring in money that can then be used to improve SWTOR while we playing make believe.

[KendraP]

sages already have a weak instant cast hot, and mercs can cast progressive scan on the move and are pretty easily the best healer in 6.0 due to DCDs combined with the set bonus and tactical synergy. Sage healer set and tacticals are all very... meh in comparison.

 

And no, I don't main a sage. I main a guardian tank, and when I heal, it's on my scoundrel (who's castable on the move healing abilities consist of probes, diagnostic scan, and emergency medpack).

[Raansu]

sages already have a weak instant cast hot, and mercs can cast progressive scan on the move and are pretty easily the best healer in 6.0 due to DCDs combined with the set bonus and tactical synergy. Sage healer set and tacticals are all very... meh in comparison.

 

And no, I don't main a sage. I main a guardian tank, and when I heal, it's on my scoundrel (who's castable on the move healing abilities consist of probes, diagnostic scan, and emergency medpack).

 

Have you read anything I've said. Naturally I'd want mercs to lose their casting on the move as well. Mercs in general though need to lose most of the buffs they got for DCD's.