Literally no reason to play anything but Deception Assassin

[supertimtaf]

Mercs, sorc, snipers and other classes forced to use all their defenses much faster against god-killing, mighty backstabs/mauls and the only really viable defense which can save from ANY BURST is vanish/camouflage ofcourse since it allows you to dissapear from enemy eyes/damage and fully stop incoming damage.

 

Talking only about what I put in bold, is it really a bad thing that merc cannot facetank a team for a minute now ? Or that a sniper cannot withstand an entire focus, roll away, cast shield then kill peoples before you could burst him down ? Or that a mara has to actually be a glass canon ?

 

The way I see it, the insane burst is slightly overtuned (because if you have to maul spam -> You don't play the class like it's intended, so it's indeed too much) but I don't think it's that far off when you compare it to the amazing dcds most class still have from 5.X

 

If mercs were more fragile than in 5.X I would have agreed, but currently they're as strong as before. So imo I don't think that saying "sins too strong, mercs have to actually play now" is a good mindset.

[TrixxieTriss]

There are people more versed in Deception than me, Devs certainly, to conclude HOW should be nerfed. Regarding WHAT should be nerfed, was rather coherent in the comments: "got 2 vanish and continue the OvP burst".

 

Then instead of calling for Nerfs, go and actually work out why you think they are OP. What is it that you personally find OP when you play against them.

Calling for Nerfs when you have nfi about the class (because you don’t play it) or what the actual problem is only leads to Bioware nerfing the wrong things or buffing the wrong things.

All they hear is QQ OP NERF!! And then do the wrong thing that ruins the classes they mess with. This is apparent with the Merc changes they tried last meta.

Nobody with any knowledge was complaining about Merc damage. Those in the know, knew it was about their DCDs and told Bioware in detail what the problems were. But all they heard were the loud people whining how OP they were and the QQers (with no idea) highjacked threads and all Bioware saw was QQ NERF MERCS so they nerfed DPS. Which did nothing to stop the Mercs being OP in pvp. All it did was make them worse in pve content because they did less damage against bosses.

So before you start shouting from the roof top that a class (any class) is OP and they need a nerf, maybe find out in detail what the issue is and confirm it yourself instead of parroting things you’ve heard and can’t explain because you lack the knowledge about the class.

Edited January 5, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

"Let's nerf sin"

"sure, how can we nerf them properly"

"I dunno, just nuke the class, I got ganked by two sins so they must die"

 

You hit the nail on the head with this. It encapsulates what happens every time people QQ and call for Nerfs.

Most have zero idea what is even happening to them when they get killed or the class they are calling to be nerfed.

 

From my perspective, there are 5 types of replies in QQ nerf threads.

 

1. Those that got “owned” bad and don’t know their own class well enough or the other class to understand what happened and how to mitigate it next time. It’s easier if they just come to the forums and QQ. (these are usually noobs or people learning to play)

 

2. Those that play the class accused of being OP, but don’t want to lose their advantage and tell everyone the class is fine. Even though they know it’s not.

 

3. Those that play the class or know the class and see the situation and debate it properly and offer suggestions or ideas on how to mitigate it or adjust it to make it work without destroying the class, (we might not all agree on the specific fixes or issues, but we are willing to discuss and see if we can zero in on the causes)

 

4. Those that have nfi at all and just parrot other people from 1, 2 and 3 because they know something is amiss, but not what and it’s easier to follow the crowd instead of finding out yourself.

 

5. People trolling (but that’s in every thread )

Edited January 5, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

You've correctly identified the only two things they need to do to sins. Disallow tactical swapping mid-round (which should never have been a thing, and really shouldn't be considered a sin nerf), and tone down maul spam (there are numerous ways they could do that, one of which is your suggestion). If they made those two changes, sins would still be very good, but it would bring them more in line with other classes.

 

 

So instead of picking one thing to Nerf to tone down sins, you want to nuke them into the ground?

 

Wow, why don’t you just remove all their damage and DCDs while your at it?

[Xertasian]

So instead of picking one thing to Nerf to tone down sins, you want to nuke them into the ground?

 

Wow, why don’t you just remove all their damage and DCDs while your at it?

 

sigh Trixxie..let me explain the point he trying to make..nobody asking to nerf there damage or dcd's..mainly take away duplicity which lower maul force cost like 75%..(correct me if i'm wrong)..that is where the excessive maul spam come from and making sins crank out alot of damage.

 

honestly you can call me a cheap and petty sin..i presonally spam maul when the 10% bonus is up..thats how they want you to play the class..

 

basically remove tactical swapping and duplicity..you fix sins without nerfing death knell set bonus or there skills..because the insane damage as people make it out to be..comes from the maul spam low force energy cost..they also have the tactical that regen force when you use reckless..but that situational..

 

if bioware can fix those only 2 problems..sins will fall in line with everything else..cause a sin job is to go in kill you and get away..rinse and repeat..it's all about the burst..substain was never a sin area of expertise..then if target has guard on it..then the burst become useless, so actually it all even out..

Edited January 5, 2020 by Xertasian

[supertimtaf]

sigh Trixxie..let me explain the point he trying to make..nobody asking to nerf there damage or dcd's..mainly take away duplicity which lower maul force cost like 75%..(correct me if i'm wrong)..that is where the excessive maul spam come from and making sins crank out alot of damage.

 

honestly you can call me a cheap and petty sin..i presonally spam maul when the 10% bonus is up..thats how they want you to play the class..

 

basically remove tactical swapping and duplicity..you fix sins without nerfing death knell set bonus or there skills..because the insane damage as people make it out to be..comes from the maul spam lost force energy cost..they also have the tactical that regen force when you use reckless..but that situational..

 

if bioware can fix those only 2 problems..sins will fall in line with everything else..cause a sin job is to go in kill you and get away..rinse and repeat..it's all about the burst..substain was never a sin area of expertise..then if target has guard on it..then the burst become useless, so actually it all even out..

 

You cannot remove Duplicity altogether, because then you kill the spec in PvE.

 

Duplicity isn't the issue. The issue is that you can get an autocrit when you don't have a duplicity proc. This doesn't seem like much, but it makes a huge difference in gameplay Having an autocrit every ten seconds is totally different than spamming autocrits and running out of Force, making you useless in long terms fights such as PvE content.

Edited January 5, 2020 by supertimtaf

[JediMasterAlex]

So instead of picking one thing to Nerf to tone down sins, you want to nuke them into the ground?

 

Wow, why don’t you just remove all their damage and DCDs while your at it?

 

How on earth is nerfing maul spam "nuke them into the ground"? That's literally the only nerf they need. Fixing tactical swapping is a bug fix.

 

sigh Trixxie..let me explain the point he trying to make..nobody asking to nerf there damage or dcd's..mainly take away duplicity which lower maul force cost like 75%..(correct me if i'm wrong)..that is where the excessive maul spam come from and making sins crank out alot of damage.

 

honestly you can call me a cheap and petty sin..i presonally spam maul when the 10% bonus is up..thats how they want you to play the class..

 

basically remove tactical swapping and duplicity..you fix sins without nerfing death knell set bonus or there skills..because the insane damage as people make it out to be..comes from the maul spam lost force energy cost..they also have the tactical that regen force when you use reckless..but that situational..

 

if bioware can fix those only 2 problems..sins will fall in line with everything else..cause a sin job is to go in kill you and get away..rinse and repeat..it's all about the burst..substain was never a sin area of expertise..then if target has guard on it..then the burst become useless, so actually it all even out..

 

Correct. There are a few other ways they could slightly nerf maul spam as well.

Edited January 5, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[supertimtaf]

How on earth is nerfing maul spam "nuke them into the ground"? That's literally the only nerf they need. Fixing tactical swapping is a bug fix.

 

The issue we have is that Sin is a class that only has its damage to bring to the table, at least in dps (in tank stance as well tho, at least in PvP). Guard on dps sin is often something that you can't claim as being "broken", because you end up losing too much health doing so. Tbh, I'd argue that sin is probably on par with PT when it comes to off-guard allies. It helps, but it's a free "melt me" ticket if you or your allies are not skilled enough.

 

What's good with the current burst is that it's an actual short damage burst. Which is precisely what we need. As Hatred shows us since it has been nuked, long PvP fights aren't what sins are made for because we cannot handle the damage received. Like, try challenging a sniper with a decep sin, and tell me how this would go without the tactical swapping or without the set bonuses. Tank sins suffers from the same issues too now that the set bonuses were changed, not having the reduced cooldown of deflexion feels really awfull, as well as making you a lot more squishy.

 

The current setup offers us two things : quick burst and a way to survive long enough to actually burn through the ridiculous defensive cooldown that most class have (and even with that, I'm not enough of a fool to try and challenge a lightning sorc in open spaces).

 

In order to keep sin somewhat relevant, which means being able to actually kills peoples other than PT and rage juggs, you cannot expect to remove both the insane burst as well as the survivability of the class granted by tactical swapping, because it would just makes us a bad mara at this point. Or a vengeance jugg. Not bad, but crushed again by the "new" top meta class.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that both of these things are issues that needs to be fixed . But you cannot fix just sin and call PvP balanced, in fact you'll just end up shifting the FOTM meta by putting the old ones on top. I dunno what you were playing in 5.X but I can clearly assure you that as a sin this was a really painfull experience. Even more now that we lost the damage reduction on force speed, which, while being too much for tank, was definitely what made us better than PT and juggs at the time.

[TrixxieTriss]

sigh Trixxie..let me explain the point he trying to make..nobody asking to nerf there damage or dcd's..mainly take away duplicity which lower maul force cost like 75%..(correct me if i'm wrong)..that is where the excessive maul spam come from and making sins crank out alot of damage.

 

honestly you can call me a cheap and petty sin..i presonally spam maul when the 10% bonus is up..thats how they want you to play the class..

 

basically remove tactical swapping and duplicity..you fix sins without nerfing death knell set bonus or there skills..because the insane damage as people make it out to be..comes from the maul spam low force energy cost..they also have the tactical that regen force when you use reckless..but that situational..

 

if bioware can fix those only 2 problems..sins will fall in line with everything else..cause a sin job is to go in kill you and get away..rinse and repeat..it's all about the burst..substain was never a sin area of expertise..then if target has guard on it..then the burst become useless, so actually it all even out..

 

Man, this discussion is going no where. We’ve all been discussing this in multiple threads since a few days after the expansion.

Maul spam is a misnomer. If you get maul spammed by a sin, you are doing something wrong. Also, spamming maul is a great way to use all your force energy.

Lastly, mauling someone more than twice after the opener isn’t how the class is played.

 

All of this has been explained many times in the last 8-9 weeks and it’s obvious the people who keep referring to maul spam, do not play the class or understand the tactics or mini rotations enough.

If you “let a Sin” maul spam you, then it’s what you are doing that let’s them.

I don’t even bother trying to do more than 2 mauls because it’s easy to counter on any class. It’s also a drain on your force. But if I knew someone was going to stand there like a “target dummy” and let me hit them, I will definitely go for the 3rd maul.

I can tell you that pve players don’t use a third maul.

 

Everyone is welcome to an opinion, but some should go play the class first before calling for Nerfs of the wrong things.

It’s one of the reasons I’m always so nervous when people start calling for Nerfs. The Bioware combat team themselves don’t play the classes against other players to see what the problems are (they’ve admitted as much). They do dummy parsing to get their numbers. Which is why I feel we should all take a step back and approach this softly or Bioware will NUKE sins into the ground because they listen to bad advice and don’t know how to test properly to see if it’s right.

 

I think if Bioware remove the ability to swap tactical’s in matches, most of this misconception about sins will disappear.

I’m open minded enough that is they are still considered OP after that, I’m willing to keep debating things and discussing how not to let a Sin maul you three times in a row.

Let’s get them to fix the tactical situation first and then go from there. If they start mucking around with abilities, DCDs or gear, it will cause more problems than fixes,

[TrixxieTriss]

How on earth is nerfing maul spam "nuke them into the ground"? That's literally the only nerf they need. Fixing tactical swapping is a bug fix.

 

Correct. There are a few other ways they could slightly nerf maul spam as well.

 

You do realise that it’s on the opener that a Sin can “sometimes” maul spam on, if the other players doesn’t understand and the opener also won’t kill you.

 

After the opener, there is no such thing as “maul spam”. Every other class can reuse their great burst every 10-15 secs through the fight. A sin cannot.

 

I do not understand why someone of your supposed calibre even has a problem countering “maul spam”. And why you can’t see that once they’ve done the opener, they do mediocre damage compared to all other burst classes. Even my Sorc burst more often then a Sin.

 

My Mara and Jugg burst as much or higher than the Sin opener in every rotation. Why aren’t you asking for them to be nerfed?

I think everyone calling for Nerfs should actually go play a Sin for a month and get a better feel of what the problems are. And also don’t use the tactical swapping loop hole and then see how OP sins aren’t.

[omaan]

Talking only about what I put in bold, is it really a bad thing that merc cannot facetank a team for a minute now ? Or that a sniper cannot withstand an entire focus, roll away, cast shield then kill peoples before you could burst him down ? Or that a mara has to actually be a glass canon ?

 

The way I see it, the insane burst is slightly overtuned (because if you have to maul spam -> You don't play the class like it's intended, so it's indeed too much) but I don't think it's that far off when you compare it to the amazing dcds most class still have from 5.X

 

If mercs were more fragile than in 5.X I would have agreed, but currently they're as strong as before. So imo I don't think that saying "sins too strong, mercs have to actually play now" is a good mindset.

 

Mhm...do you play ranked? Merc's maximum hits with best stats and low alacrity is like 40-41 k maximum from demolition round and around 50-55 k from vortex bolt which, strangely often misses on targets for no reason even with 5%+ of accuracy. Both of these abilties have cd like 11 and 14 seconds. Sin can do 75k mauls in a row while maul has no cd, oper can do 30-40k veilded strike and 65-70 k backstab while cd on these two abilities are less compared to cd on merc burst (+ reset of opers burst with new cd) merc needs to cast heatseeker missles and boltstrom all the time which allows oper and sin easy time stunning and interrupting all these casts.

From defenses side - merc defenses currently doesn't give any chance for merc to dps at all. Either merc just runs from sins and opers while winning time for his team mates and doing zero dps or merc dies. Merc can't facetank dps now but merc can't do dps or anything else either. Playing ranked i stopped seeing mercs there..and even when i see gold or top 3 mercs who are playing good they barely can pull any serious dps under pressure

[Aetideus]

Then instead of calling for Nerfs, go and actually work out why you think they are OP. What is it that you personally find OP when you play against them.

Calling for Nerfs when you have nfi about the class (because you don’t play it) or what the actual problem is only leads to Bioware nerfing the wrong things or buffing the wrong things.

All they hear is QQ OP NERF!! And then do the wrong thing that ruins the classes they mess with. This is apparent with the Merc changes they tried last meta.

Nobody with any knowledge was complaining about Merc damage. Those in the know, knew it was about their DCDs and told Bioware in detail what the problems were. But all they heard were the loud people whining how OP they were and the QQers (with no idea) highjacked threads and all Bioware saw was QQ NERF MERCS so they nerfed DPS. Which did nothing to stop the Mercs being OP in pvp. All it did was make them worse in pve content because they did less damage against bosses.

So before you start shouting from the roof top that a class (any class) is OP and they need a nerf, maybe find out in detail what the issue is and confirm it yourself instead of parroting things you’ve heard and can’t explain because you lack the knowledge about the class.

 

Apparently you don't want to accept the problem and took my reluctance to provide a hasty solution for non-existence of the problem.

 

The problem as stated in a lot of comments is the REPEATED, UNCONTROLLABLE OVERPOWERDED BURST.

 

This could be addressed in various ways for the Devs to elaborate and conclude. Stacking of a class cannot be avoided ofc.

- Longer CD of vanish. The Charges system cannot be changed since it is global.

- Reduce the base DPS of the abilities. Maul, Ball and Breach for Deception. It is the base DPS of Deception abilities that should be addressed, because they get Crit and maximized by Sets, Tacticals, as well as Deception Procs; and changing all those would affect the other specs. For example, changing the Melee Crit bonus after a Force Crit would affect all Assin specs.

- Other combination.

 

If I had to chose I would prefer a combination of both, since the 2 vanishes is the only think that keeps Assins alive and away from the pathetic performance they had before 6.0. A reduction of the base DPS + a shorter Fade

ability would be equalizing.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Aetideus

[supertimtaf]

Mhm...do you play ranked? Merc's maximum hits with best stats and low alacrity is like 40-41 k maximum from demolition round and around 50-55 k from vortex bolt which, strangely often misses on targets for no reason even with 5%+ of accuracy. Both of these abilties have cd like 11 and 14 seconds. Sin can do 75k mauls in a row while maul has no cd, oper can do 30-40k veilded strike and 65-70 k backstab while cd on these two abilities are less compared to cd on merc burst (+ reset of opers burst with new cd) merc needs to cast heatseeker missles and boltstrom all the time which allows oper and sin easy time stunning and interrupting all these casts.

From defenses side - merc defenses currently doesn't give any chance for merc to dps at all. Either merc just runs from sins and opers while winning time for his team mates and doing zero dps or merc dies. Merc can't facetank dps now but merc can't do dps or anything else either. Playing ranked i stopped seeing mercs there..and even when i see gold or top 3 mercs who are playing good they barely can pull any serious dps under pressure

 

The reason that vortex bolt misses is because merc have an off-hand weapon, which have lower accuracy than your mainhand weapon (it's 70% accuracy instead of the base 100% iirc but I could be wrong). This is a thing that's around since the beginning of the game, although I'm not sure that devs know about it nor want to fix it.

 

As for ranked, sadly I'm stuck on two sides here, one being unsubbed so apart from TR I cannot enter ranked, and the second being that I play on Leviathan, dead servers where no ranked pops at all, apart from the eventual wintraders. So I'm just using my memory from the last week of last season.

 

Although we have a lot less sin on Leviathan, as well as a lot less oper, peoples are still playing mara/merc/snipers here so the issue you're probably experiencing due to class stacking aren't the same on this server.

 

as for defensive cooldowns for merc alone, put a single net on a sin and you'll force him to use a cc-breaker and a vanish. I don't know how things have changed since S8, but at the time peoples were good enough that you died to a hardswap as soon as you used your breaker. Put a reflect on, and the sin swaps target or takes serious damage by trying to maul spam you. Or again, the kolto surcharge still prevents you from dropping too far on health, except if of course you're focused by two or three sins/oper at the same time, in which case I don't think the issues come from sins and oper but from class stacking, which should be resolved imo but can kill ranked procs if it's badly implemented.

 

From what you're saying, mercs are dying because they get ganked by two or more stealth at the time. But I seriously doubt that a good merc will easily loose against a sin from the same level in a fair 1v1. But yeah, ranked is unfair : matchmaking is borked, class stacking shouldn't be a thing... I'd like to transfer to DM just once to see what has become of the current ranked scene tho, just to have a fair idea of what it's like on other servers, but on Levi', apart from ranked being dead, there's a lot of mercs as usual. And from the few arenas that I got in regs, they're not something to underestimate.

 

TLDR : Mercs are strong, but sin-stacking is stronger. Fix class stacking and mercs will be good again.

[supertimtaf]

Apparently you don't want to accept the problem and took my reluctance to provide a haste solution as non-existence of the problem.

 

The problem as stated in a lot of comments, is the REPEATED, UNCONTROLLABLE OVERPOWERDED BURST.

 

This could be addressed in various ways, for the Devs to elaborate and conclude. Stacking of the class cannot be avoided ofc.

- Longer CD of vanish. The charges system instead cannot be changed since it is global.

- Reduce the base DPS of the abilities. Maul, Ball Lighting and Breach for Deception. It is the base DPS of Deception abilities that should be addressed, because they get Crit by Sets, Tactical, gear and Deception Procs and changing all those would affect the other specs. For example, changing the Melee Crit bonus after a Force Crit would affect all Assin specs.

- Other combination.

 

If I had to chose I would prefer a combination of both, since the 2 vanishes is the only think that keeps Assins alive and away from the pathetic performance they had before 6.0. A reduction of the base DPS + a shorter Fade

ability would be equalizing.

 

Reducing sins dps shouldn't happen, because you'll just nerf PvE for PvP matters. We have to be smarter than that if you want balance to be achieved.

 

Again, remember in 5.X when peoples where saying that mercenary was too strong in PvP. From the start we all said that it was the defensive cooldowns that needed a nerf.

 

Devs only listened to players who've never played merc. As a result, the DcDs got unchanged (so merc were still OP in PvP) and they got their damage nerfed, which nuked them in PvE.

 

At the time we asked for one thing we got the complete opposite because peoples weren't able to see what was balanced and what wasn't. I don't want that to happen again, because that would just punish PvE players for a matter that was only PvP. And wouldn't solve the issue of sins being played incorrectly atm.

 

Just so we're all clear, every ten seconds you get a proc named "Duplicity", which makes Maul cost almost no Force and deal a bit more damage. Sin, if played properly, should only use Maul when it is procced with Duplicity. Before nobody in their right mind would have used an unprocced Maul, because the benefits you'd get from it were non-existant. Currently the issue is that the new set bonuses allows you to crit on an unprocced Maul. Basically, you're playing the class incorrectly because it is more "optimal". This is what needs to be fixed. Prevent autocrit if Duplicity isn't enabled. There you have it. You can only deal 70k+ hits once every ten seconds and not three times in 4 seconds. Sins are fixed, and you don't nerf PvE on the side.

 

 

You all have to remember that PvP balance should never hurt PvE balance in order to be decent. I agree, there's not much high-end PvE players around. But there's not much high-end PvP players around too, so nobody will get a "balance priority", don't forget that

[Aetideus]

Reducing sins dps shouldn't happen, because you'll just nerf PvE for PvP matters. We have to be smarter than that if you want balance to be achieved.

 

Again, remember in 5.X when peoples where saying that mercenary was too strong in PvP. From the start we all said that it was the defensive cooldowns that needed a nerf.

 

Devs only listened to players who've never played merc. As a result, the DcDs got unchanged (so merc were still OP in PvP) and they got their damage nerfed, which nuked them in PvE.

 

At the time we asked for one thing we got the complete opposite because peoples weren't able to see what was balanced and what wasn't. I don't want that to happen again, because that would just punish PvE players for a matter that was only PvP. And wouldn't solve the issue of sins being played incorrectly atm.

 

Just so we're all clear, every ten seconds you get a proc named "Duplicity", which makes Maul cost almost no Force and deal a bit more damage. Sin, if played properly, should only use Maul when it is procced with Duplicity. Before nobody in their right mind would have used an unprocced Maul, because the benefits you'd get from it were non-existant. Currently the issue is that the new set bonuses allows you to crit on an unprocced Maul. Basically, you're playing the class incorrectly because it is more "optimal". This is what needs to be fixed. Prevent autocrit if Duplicity isn't enabled. There you have it. You can only deal 70k+ hits once every ten seconds and not three times in 4 seconds. Sins are fixed, and you don't nerf PvE on the side.

 

 

You all have to remember that PvP balance should never hurt PvE balance in order to be decent. I agree, there's not much high-end PvE players around. But there's not much high-end PvP players around too, so nobody will get a "balance priority", don't forget that

 

Agreed that changing the base DPS substantially is out of the question due to PvE. A moderate/small reduction though, combined with other mediocre PvP targeted nerfs would be feasible. Deception is not favored by the PvErs.

The change of the autocrit that you propose + a slightly higher cost of the abilities worth trying. At least there would be a 7s window to prepare one's defense.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Aetideus

[Werronious]

Well I play both Infiltration(deception) and Serenity(hatred). Thos 2 are totally different.

 

Infiltration has op burst that you cant ignore, its 4 button rotation (comparable with merc 3 button last expansion). Its easy to play and killing someone is not a problem. Maybe the problem is with Death knell set which is really awesome.

They need to balance **** out, seriously. I play it and I feel bored how easy and broken this **** is. Maybe to put cd on backstab for like 5-6 sec.

 

Serenity(hatred) on the other hand needs serious buffs if they wont nerf infiltration, cause nobody would play **** spec if one is brokenly op. Serenity needs buff to direct dmg abilities at least by 25% - 35% (like squelch and force in balance - biggest crit is like 30k LOL) plus they need to maybe delete CD from serenity strike so we at least can spam low dmg attack that heals us (Quick escalation tactical should be baseline - critical attacks with serenity strike clears cd from it), they need to increase dps to heal ratio by a lot so survivability wont be the issue. But for balance purpose they need to decrase dot dmg to other targets except to your target that you currently attack. Plus they need to increase 3rd set bonus of Murderous Revelation from 6 sec to 9-10 sec.

 

My 2 cents.

 

edit: Serenity(Hatred) also have problems with force starving.

Serenity(hatred) win rate to infiltration(deception) is 0% atm. Really sad.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Werronious

[Ksiphon]

As long as tactical swapping doesn't get fixed, Ranked is dead as a competitive game mode including multiple classes. Also, ranked season 12 gold badges on sins will be near worthless, as they will only indicate that this particular player did a lot of ranked games, nothing more. Getting gold on sins does not include any kind of skill anymore.

Which is a shame for the old sin players, who actually achieved high rating on sins before they were buffed.

[JediMasterAlex]

The issue we have is that Sin is a class that only has its damage to bring to the table, at least in dps (in tank stance as well tho, at least in PvP). Guard on dps sin is often something that you can't claim as being "broken", because you end up losing too much health doing so. Tbh, I'd argue that sin is probably on par with PT when it comes to off-guard allies. It helps, but it's a free "melt me" ticket if you or your allies are not skilled enough.

 

This is underestimating sins in my opinion. The ability to choose when to engage from stealth, combined with 2 cloak out and heal to fulls, is incredibly powerful. Offguarding is tougher than in 5.x because of the increased damage, but it's still used by good sins all the time to great effect. I have virtually never seen a pt offguard, because a pt is always being tunneled and dying itself.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that both of these things are issues that needs to be fixed . But you cannot fix just sin and call PvP balanced, in fact you'll just end up shifting the FOTM meta by putting the old ones on top. I dunno what you were playing in 5.X but I can clearly assure you that as a sin this was a really painfull experience. Even more now that we lost the damage reduction on force speed, which, while being too much for tank, was definitely what made us better than PT and juggs at the time.

 

Merely nerfing maul spam slightly will not change the meta. Sins will still be extremely good, probably still the best class. It would simply reduce the gap between sins and the rest of the field. The next class to look at would be dps ops and their incredible burst and healing, but one thing at a time.

 

I played madness sorc the past two seasons, which was essentially on par with deception sin. Madness sorc is now arguably the worst spec in the whole game for solo ranked, so I had to switch to lightning.

[JediMasterAlex]

Man, this discussion is going no where. We’ve all been discussing this in multiple threads since a few days after the expansion.

Maul spam is a misnomer. If you get maul spammed by a sin, you are doing something wrong. Also, spamming maul is a great way to use all your force energy.

Lastly, mauling someone more than twice after the opener isn’t how the class is played.

 

A single sin can take a sorc from 100% to 40% in one hardstun with maul spam. That is simply absurd. Sure, I can avoid all that damage by using phasewalk as soon as I'm stunned. But guess what, now I've had to use one of my two defensive cooldowns instantly with one person on me. Nothing like that existed in 5.x (except multiple nets, which was also a problem, but at least net is on a long cooldown). I shouldn't have to burn my phasewalk or barrier less than 2 seconds into the start of the round. And the sin can stealth out, heal to full and do the same **** over and over. To pretend like that's well-balanced is to have your head buried in the sand.

 

There is no huge nerf needed here. Either each individual maul has to hit for less, or they have to cost more force, or there just have to be less of them.

Edited January 5, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[TrixxieTriss]

Apparently you don't want to accept the problem and took my reluctance to provide a hasty solution for non-existence of the problem.

 

The problem as stated in a lot of comments is the REPEATED, UNCONTROLLABLE OVERPOWERDED BURST.

 

This could be addressed in various ways for the Devs to elaborate and conclude. Stacking of a class cannot be avoided ofc.

- Longer CD of vanish. The Charges system cannot be changed since it is global.

- Reduce the base DPS of the abilities. Maul, Ball and Breach for Deception. It is the base DPS of Deception abilities that should be addressed, because they get Crit and maximized by Sets, Tacticals, as well as Deception Procs; and changing all those would affect the other specs. For example, changing the Melee Crit bonus after a Force Crit would affect all Assin specs.

- Other combination.

 

If I had to chose I would prefer a combination of both, since the 2 vanishes is the only think that keeps Assins alive and away from the pathetic performance they had before 6.0. A reduction of the base DPS + a shorter Fade

ability would be equalizing.

 

Yep, ok, keep doubling down on how much more too Nerf Sins. Would you like a buff to your class while they are at it so that you don’t have to worry about learning to play or any other class that’s not your own being a threat to you? And you had the audacity to derided my earlier post and accuse me of looking foolish :rolleyes:

Edited January 5, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[bladech]

The reason that vortex bolt misses is because merc have an off-hand weapon, which have lower accuracy than your mainhand weapon (it's 70% accuracy instead of the base 100% iirc but I could be wrong). This is a thing that's around since the beginning of the game, although I'm not sure that devs know about it nor want to fix it.

 

As for ranked, sadly I'm stuck on two sides here, one being unsubbed so apart from TR I cannot enter ranked, and the second being that I play on Leviathan, dead servers where no ranked pops at all, apart from the eventual wintraders. So I'm just using my memory from the last week of last season.

 

Although we have a lot less sin on Leviathan, as well as a lot less oper, peoples are still playing mara/merc/snipers here so the issue you're probably experiencing due to class stacking aren't the same on this server.

 

as for defensive cooldowns for merc alone, put a single net on a sin and you'll force him to use a cc-breaker and a vanish. I don't know how things have changed since S8, but at the time peoples were good enough that you died to a hardswap as soon as you used your breaker. Put a reflect on, and the sin swaps target or takes serious damage by trying to maul spam you. Or again, the kolto surcharge still prevents you from dropping too far on health, except if of course you're focused by two or three sins/oper at the same time, in which case I don't think the issues come from sins and oper but from class stacking, which should be resolved imo but can kill ranked procs if it's badly implemented.

 

From what you're saying, mercs are dying because they get ganked by two or more stealth at the time. But I seriously doubt that a good merc will easily loose against a sin from the same level in a fair 1v1. But yeah, ranked is unfair : matchmaking is borked, class stacking shouldn't be a thing... I'd like to transfer to DM just once to see what has become of the current ranked scene tho, just to have a fair idea of what it's like on other servers, but on Levi', apart from ranked being dead, there's a lot of mercs as usual. And from the few arenas that I got in regs, they're not something to underestimate.

 

TLDR : Mercs are strong, but sin-stacking is stronger. Fix class stacking and mercs will be good again.

 

they can't fix class stacking and even if they will it still will be class stacking because queue looks like this - 20 sins, 15 opers, 9 marauders, 3 sorcs in queue and maybe 1 merc, sniper, pt and other useless classes. How do you avoid stacking with this? 2 sins on merc - merc is useless, oper + sin on merc - merc is useless. ONE skilled sin on SKILLED MERC - merc can do good but still he is forced to use shield, run, kite while maintaining the damage (yet i rarely see only 1 guy sitting on skilled merc, in most cases its 2-3 on merc). Sin can facetunnel all dps, then vanish and regen to full hp, then face tunnel full dps AGAIN, vanish second time and regen TO FULL AGAIN. merc can't facetunnel at all and merc needs to cast to dps. Same with other classes. This leads to oper/sin being kings while other classes are damn garbage compared to sin/oper

[TrixxieTriss]

A single sin can take a sorc from 100% to 40% in one hardstun with maul spam. That is simply absurd. Sure, I can avoid all that damage by using phasewalk as soon as I'm stunned. But guess what, now I've had to use one of my two defensive cooldowns instantly with one person on me. Nothing like that existed in 5.x (except multiple nets, which was also a problem, but at least net is on a long cooldown). I shouldn't have to burn my phasewalk or barrier less than 2 seconds into the start of the round. And the sin can stealth out, heal to full and do the same **** over and over. To pretend like that's well-balanced is to have your head buried in the sand.

 

There is no huge nerf needed here. Either each individual maul has to hit for less, or they have to cost more force, or there just have to be less of them.

 

We need to agree to disagree. It’s obvious you and I aren’t going to see eye to eye on this. I play every class but PTs and I only toy with operatives. So as a longer term player of Sorcs, I can see your point, but you are refusing to look at it from a Sins perspective,

Sorcs are pretty damn hard to kill. We have more than just phase walk or bubble. We can self heal and kite just as well as a Sin. We can also keep the sin at range and stop them from stealthing out to heal to full.

Once the Sin uses his opener to get you to 40%, whats he got left in the tank that’s going to kill you fast or stop you from also healing to full if he does stealth out?

And I’m not talking about ranked or Regs. In a 1v1, you shouldn’t die to a Sin on a Sorc. At worst it’s a stale mate.

If you are talking about ranked, then you need to look at what else is happening too, which I think is the problem here. You guys are looking at this from a solo reg perspective where teams are unbalanced and there is Sin/Operative class stacking happening.

Edited January 5, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[JediMasterAlex]

Sorcs are pretty damn hard to kill. We have more than just phase walk or bubble. We can self heal and kite just as well as a Sin. We can also keep the sin at range and stop them from stealthing out to heal to full.

 

How are you stopping them from stealthing out and healing to full? A lucky force storm? That's obviously not reliable.

 

Once the Sin uses his opener to get you to 40%, whats he got left in the tank that’s going to kill you fast or stop you from also healing to full if he does stealth out?

 

You act like a sin can't do damage after the opener. Let's say I don't break or phase, so I'm at 40% and the sin is at 100%. Then the sin pops shroud so I can't even damage the sin and it keeps attacking me. I'm dead, or now I have to phase. O wow, the sin force speeds to my phasewalk spot and starts *********** me up again. If the sins feels like it, it can even stealth out and open on me all over again, and still have a stealth out left in the tank. I can grenade, I can run away, I can self heal a bit, but it will chase me down. Meanwhile, I haven't even done any damage yet in the round. Or, alternatively, someone else on their team, or multiple people on their team, start attacking me, either killing me or again, forcing me to use phasewalk or barrier. I could go on and on with scenarios like this. Of course if the sin isn't very good, and doesn't relentlessly pursue me, then I can heal up and have all kinds of flexibility, but that's irrelevant.

 

No offense, Trixxie, but I'm not sure you fully appreciate the kind of pressure that good sins can apply in ranked. Even if you've played ranked in the past, 6.0 is much different. Everything is doing more burst, but sins are doing way more than any other class. It is nothing like what happens in regs.

 

In a 1v1, you shouldn’t die to a Sin on a Sorc. At worst it’s a stale mate.

 

This is laughably wrong. Nothing can stand against sins in a 1v1 except ops (assuming everyone has all their dcds. If a sin has no more stealth outs and the sorc still has everything it can win, but otherwise it stands no chance against an equally skilled sin). And honestly, I'm not so sure ops will win those all the time anymore.

Edited January 5, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[Xertasian]

Yep, ok, keep doubling down on how much more too Nerf Sins. Would you like a buff to your class while they are at it so that you don’t have to worry about learning to play or any other class that’s not your own being a threat to you? And you had the audacity to derided my earlier post and accuse me of looking foolish :rolleyes:

 

Trixxie..leave the damage increase on maul alone..that not the problem with duplicity proc..the problem is 75% force reduction on maul..i had got chant of regeneration in a flash point drop..it basically give you hella force regen after you pop reckless..i went into warzone to try out a lil experiment..

 

when i pop reckless and chant of regeneration activated..i spam close to 10 mauls back to back..the sorc i stun was dead..all i seen was 45k+ crits..had one crit hit 81k..when the sorc died i still had force left to do maybe 2 or 3 more maul spams..the problem is that 75% energy reduction..that just need to do away with it or reduce it to 25%..

 

guess alot of people just haven't caught on to the idea..that chant of regeneration is beast..i thinking about taking it over blade of elements as main damage tactical ..after i switch out 2 cloaks..the synergy with duplicity procs is enough to make me do some things i can't type on here..cranking out close to 10 maul attacks in 1 go..that's hella insane..

 

lastly to the crowd of people that will read this..mainly this is the crux of the problem..don't need to nerf death knell or there base damage..fix duplicity to make it a even trade off..while you trying to fix sins,,NERF OPERATIVES..just had to throw that in..see what i did there..

Edited January 6, 2020 by Xertasian

[bladech]

Trixxie..leave the damage increase on maul alone..that not the problem with duplicity proc..the problem is 75% force reduction on maul..i had got chant of resonance in a flash point drop..it basically give you hella force regen after you pop reckless..i went into warzone to try out a lil experiment..

 

when i pop reckless and chant of resonance activated..i spam close to 10 mauls back to back..the sorc i stun was dead..all i seen was 45k+ crits..had one crit hit 81k..when the sorc died i still had force left to do maybe 2 or 3 more maul spams..the problem is that 75% energy reduction..that just need to do away with it or reduce it to 25%..

 

guess alot of people just haven't caught on to the idea..that chant of resonance is beast..i thinking about taking it over blade of elements as main damage tactical ..after i switch out 2 cloaks..the synergy with duplicity procs is enough to make me do some things i can't type on here..cranking out close to 10 maul attacks in 1 go..that's hella insane..

 

lastly to the crowd of people that will read this..mainly this is the crux of the problem..don't need to nerf death knell or there base damage..fix duplicity to make it a even trade off..while you trying to fix sins,,NERF OPERATIVES..just had to throw that in..see what i did there..

 

45k mauls are weak omg...skilled sins in ranked do 60-75 k mauls, 3 times in a row