Literally no reason to play anything but Deception Assassin

[septru]

It’s only a stealth meta because they can tactical swap. All Bioware needed to do is lock it so you can’t do that.

Then the Stealth meta problem is sort of fixed.

The issue is so many people have put so much work into those classes now, that even if they fix the tactical swapping, the Stealths will still be over represented in pvp and class stacking will still be a problem.

If Bioware had fixed this tactical swapping straight away, this would never have turned into a stealth meta in the first place.

 

You realize only assassins swap tacticals? No operatives swap tacticals because the operative tacticals give a significant damage boost.

 

In addition, I've seen a lot of non stealth classes get out of combat and swap to life warden. Sorcs, Maras, Snipers.

[Floplag]

It’s only a stealth meta because they can tactical swap. All Bioware needed to do is lock it so you can’t do that.

Then the Stealth meta problem is sort of fixed.

The issue is so many people have put so much work into those classes now, that even if they fix the tactical swapping, the Stealths will still be over represented in pvp and class stacking will still be a problem.

If Bioware had fixed this tactical swapping straight away, this would never have turned into a stealth meta in the first place.

 

Of course, but thats a pretty huge differential, dont you think? I agree its a simply fix, but until that fix is made, its a game changer.

[roupe]

Those biased sins...

"nothing changed except tactical swap" "other classes can do 50k damages"

 

Like this is the problem, lol. Death Knell gives Deception the damage they needed in 5.0. They can now get defensive utilities + two cloaks tactical because they don't sacrifice damage anymore and are much more resilient = they can now guard, peel, taunt much more efficiently.

 

Everything changed and the damage alone is not the problem. The problem is that sins are hard to kill with all the tools they have, and if you don't kill them, they add too much with guard, taunt, and damage.

Edited January 3, 2020 by roupe

[mrdert]

Those biased sins...

"nothing changed except tactical swap" "other classes can do 50k damages"

 

Like this is the problem, lol. Death Knell gives Deception the damage they needed in 5.0. They can now get defensive utilities + two cloaks tactical because they don't sacrifice damage anymore and are much more resilient = they can now guard, peel, taunt much more efficiently.

 

Everything changed and the damage alone is not the problem. The problem is that sins are hard to kill with all the tools they have, and if you don't kill them, they add too much with guard, taunt, and damage.

 

Please enlighten us all as to what new defensive abilities deception received in 6.0? I only know of the nerf to damage reduction during force speed. Also claiming deception, the class with the least damage reduction or self heals, is an un killable tank is pretty funny. Yes deception can taunt fairly effectively, but deception throwing guard on a focused ally will result in a melted assassin. Just the same as it’s always been.

 

Honestly this sounds like the logic of players who say focus the juggernaut before arena rounds begin.

[mrdert]

Those biased sins...

"nothing changed except tactical swap" "other classes can do 50k damages"

 

Like this is the problem, lol. Death Knell gives Deception the damage they needed in 5.0. They can now get defensive utilities + two cloaks tactical because they don't sacrifice damage anymore and are much more resilient = they can now guard, peel, taunt much more efficiently.

 

Everything changed and the damage alone is not the problem. The problem is that sins are hard to kill with all the tools they have, and if you don't kill them, they add too much with guard, taunt, and damage.

 

Please enlighten us all as to what new defensive abilities deception received in 6.0? I only know of the nerf to damage reduction during force speed. Also claiming deception, the class with the least damage reduction or self heals, is an un killable tank is pretty funny. Yes deception can taunt fairly effectively, but deception throwing guard on a focused ally will result in a melted assassin. Just the same as it’s always been.

 

Honestly this sounds like the logic of players who say focus the juggernaut before arena rounds begin.

[Lundorff]

It’s only a stealth meta because they can tactical swap. All Bioware needed to do is lock it so you can’t do that.

Then the Stealth meta problem is sort of fixed.

The issue is so many people have put so much work into those classes now, that even if they fix the tactical swapping, the Stealths will still be over represented in pvp and class stacking will still be a problem.

If Bioware had fixed this tactical swapping straight away, this would never have turned into a stealth meta in the first place.

 

Ah no. Tactical swapping is at most a minor issue here. The real culprit is indeed the constant burst / stealth / heal up meme. The double (or triple) stealth for sins and the endless stealth for maras combined with the ungodly burst, is the root cause of all my woes. It does not matter how much damage I inflict, if that person simply stealth-run to heal up, and that leaves mercs, pts, snipers and juggs somewhat pointless in this meta.

 

I have tried numerous gear combination for my jugg: the normal full dps gear, the weird one with nimble master to flee and even going 100% tank gear. None of it matter at all. Even when I sit in spawn and wait to engage, I am still exploding the moment I enter the fray, and 9 out of 10 times I am being murdered by sins and maras, which mean the damage I am inflicting is almost completely pointless.

 

Some people hold out hope for the infamous jugg tactical, Embrace the Pain, and I am sure it is going to make jugg-tanks the only viable tank class, but I highly doubt it will change anything for dps. Life Warden will still take priority in pure dps matches, unless of course they make it completely broken and allows juggs to heal all the time.

 

(Sorry for jugg rant.)

[JediMasterAlex]

Please enlighten us all as to what new defensive abilities deception received in 6.0? I only know of the nerf to damage reduction during force speed. Also claiming deception, the class with the least damage reduction or self heals, is an un killable tank is pretty funny. Yes deception can taunt fairly effectively, but deception throwing guard on a focused ally will result in a melted assassin. Just the same as it’s always been.

 

Honestly this sounds like the logic of players who say focus the juggernaut before arena rounds begin.

 

Do you play solo ranked? Everything Roupe said is completely accurate. And juggs are almost always the best targets to focus in arenas unless there are pts. If you think otherwise, you're simply wrong I'm afraid.

[Lundorff]

Do you play solo ranked? Everything Roupe said is completely accurate. And juggs are almost always the best targets to focus in arenas unless there are pts. If you think otherwise, you're simply wrong I'm afraid.

 

Sad jugg trombone

[JediMasterAlex]

Ah no. Tactical swapping is at most a minor issue here. The real culprit is indeed the constant burst / stealth / heal up meme. The double (or triple) stealth for sins and the endless stealth for maras combined with the ungodly burst, is the root cause of all my woes. It does not matter how much damage I inflict, if that person simply stealth-run to heal up, and that leaves mercs, pts, snipers and juggs somewhat pointless in this meta.

 

Sometimes it feels like playing whack-a-mole. I actually won a game against 3 sins and an op the other day (all good players) by staying up top, using knockbacks, and just bursting down the sins one by one, and as they came back from stealth, just burst them again. Luckily we had a few offhealers on our team that could offheal our jugg that was getting focused, and we kept forcing them to stealth out so much that they couldn't secure a kill on any of us. But really that was the exception. Most of the time the stealth team will get a kill long before any of them die if they're smart about their stealth outs.

Edited January 3, 2020 by JediMasterAlex

[roupe]

Please enlighten us all as to what new defensive abilities deception received in 6.0? I only know of the nerf to damage reduction during force speed. Also claiming deception, the class with the least damage reduction or self heals, is an un killable tank is pretty funny. Yes deception can taunt fairly effectively, but deception throwing guard on a focused ally will result in a melted assassin. Just the same as it’s always been.

 

Honestly this sounds like the logic of players who say focus the juggernaut before arena rounds begin.

 

Another cloak which gives you another force shroud.

And you can now take most defensive utilities while keeping competitive damage : Avoidance, Formless Fantom, Fade, Dark Stability, Shroud of madness, Disjunction, Phasing Phantasm.

[DavidAtkinson]

Ah no. Tactical swapping is at most a minor issue here. The real culprit is indeed the constant burst / stealth / heal up meme. The double (or triple) stealth for sins and the endless stealth for maras combined with the ungodly burst, is the root cause of all my woes. It does not matter how much damage I inflict, if that person simply stealth-run to heal up, and that leaves mercs, pts, snipers and juggs somewhat pointless in this meta.

 

I have tried numerous gear combination for my jugg: the normal full dps gear, the weird one with nimble master to flee and even going 100% tank gear. None of it matter at all. Even when I sit in spawn and wait to engage, I am still exploding the moment I enter the fray, and 9 out of 10 times I am being murdered by sins and maras, which mean the damage I am inflicting is almost completely pointless.

 

Some people hold out hope for the infamous jugg tactical, Embrace the Pain, and I am sure it is going to make jugg-tanks the only viable tank class, but I highly doubt it will change anything for dps. Life Warden will still take priority in pure dps matches, unless of course they make it completely broken and allows juggs to heal all the time.

 

(Sorry for jugg rant.)

 

On DM we have mostly maras and sins and snipers in que now in prime time . The population is so low that I cannot dodge to get a second game. Class stacking is a result of many things one of which is that some classes are just garbage in arenas and are played by less % of pepole, while other classes like marauder and the current FOTM reroller club special's, sins and opers are played by a lot more people for obvious reasons. This leaves the que with more sins , opers and maras , and this increases the chances of class stacking. The game makes teams with what it has in que...

[TrixxieTriss]

You realize only assassins swap tacticals? No operatives swap tacticals because the operative tacticals give a significant damage boost.

 

In addition, I've seen a lot of non stealth classes get out of combat and swap to life warden. Sorcs, Maras, Snipers.

 

I don’t disagree, but Sins are using the tactical swap like its an ability/DCD. The only other class capable of doing that is an Operative.

That’s where the whole problem of Sins being OP has spawned from. If they didn’t have that tactical swap as part of their “rotation” then there would be a lot less QQ about them.

 

The simplest answer is Bioware remove the ability to swap tactical’s once a match starts or once a round starts.

[TrixxieTriss]

Ah no. Tactical swapping is at most a minor issue here. The real culprit is indeed the constant burst / stealth / heal up meme. The double (or triple) stealth for sins and the endless stealth for maras combined with the ungodly burst, is the root cause of all my woes. It does not matter how much damage I inflict, if that person simply stealth-run to heal up, and that leaves mercs, pts, snipers and juggs somewhat pointless in this meta.

 

I have tried numerous gear combination for my jugg: the normal full dps gear, the weird one with nimble master to flee and even going 100% tank gear. None of it matter at all. Even when I sit in spawn and wait to engage, I am still exploding the moment I enter the fray, and 9 out of 10 times I am being murdered by sins and maras, which mean the damage I am inflicting is almost completely pointless.

 

Some people hold out hope for the infamous jugg tactical, Embrace the Pain, and I am sure it is going to make jugg-tanks the only viable tank class, but I highly doubt it will change anything for dps. Life Warden will still take priority in pure dps matches, unless of course they make it completely broken and allows juggs to heal all the time.

 

(Sorry for jugg rant.)

 

Sins only have so many stealth outs because of the tactical and swapping it around? If they could not do that, sins would have exactly the same setup as 5.0.

 

Also, I’m mainly a Rage Jugg player myself, so I do feel your pain. The reason I’m defending Sins is because their FOTM moniker is undeserved. But because of it, we now have excessive class stacking which only exasperates the situation

 

I’m using this setup on my Jugg and having ok success in 1v1 situations. Of course Maras, Operatives and Sins stealthing up to me in a group don’t help.

 

You can use this setup for a rage Jugg or Fury Mara, depending on your goal. Ie, ranked, regs, flash points, etc.

 

Rage Jugg/fury mara - Descent of the Fearless set bonus + enrage crush tactical

 

(Raging Burst and Smash detonate Force Crush, dealing Force Crush's remaining damage to up to 8 enemies in an area around the primary target)

 

It’s not just good for spreading the damage in an AOE (you have to use smash to detonate for AOE).

For single target : Detonating it with raging burst literally bursts all of force crush + raging bursts damage in one hit.

Theoretically, force crush 3546 x 3 (seconds) + 10875 = 21531, plus, raging burst’s 17324-17822 = between 38837-39335 hit. It essentially becomes the biggest kinetic burst a rage or furry warrior can do. And that’s before adding any Crit multiplier to it.

(Sorry if my maths is wrong, I’m not a theory crafter)

Edit: had to change numbers because I accidentally looked when my gear was not equiped )

 

For maximum single target damage in the smallest window.

Rotation - Force crush, raging burst, (4stacks) Furious Power + Furious Strike

I’ve personally found this is a pretty good combo in regs and PvE because you are bursting with kinetic damage, followed by large weapon damage.

 

I can’t speak for ranked. It may or not be good. But for casual play or when you need some good AOE damage against groups of mobs, this set up is really fun.

 

FYI, I got the tactical from a flash point drop and so did my wife. I don’t think you can get it from the vendor

Edited January 3, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[Xertasian]

reading all this GARBAGE..this is gonna leave a bad taste in my mouth..for once on forums i agree with Trixxie (YUCK)..sins are finally back at where they was at 1.0..remember those days..everybody crying nerf but state a legit reason..so far is just been personal rants..

 

i been playing this game from day 1..i stuck with my sin through the good and bad..mostly bad and i happy to rip through classes like tofu..other classes can do the same thing..it never is the class but the person playing the class..bioware can magically balance every class..people will still come on this forum and cry for nerfs..

 

good example of this..operatives crying for sins to be nerf..cause they no longer are the king of 1 vs 1 and stealth..honestly a good sin and ops fight..nobody will die..they will just stealth out..the tactical swapping need to go..i agree on that point..sins are working as design..they are a jack of all trades, but a master of none..

 

now to the meat of this thread..i gonna pull out my crystal ball and make a prediction..when they drop the patch and juggs get the tactical that will reduce enrage defense cd time..this is where you gonna have a cancer worser than any other class..

juggs go down fast in rank..cause they get focus..with life warden and that new tactical..good luck on killing a jugg..from my understanding you know how to manage your dcd's properly..you would pretty much have ED to pull out of your butt..4 juggs that are unstoppable stacking for rank..that is a nightmare i dont want to be in..

 

if yall thinking to yourselves im just talking out of my arse..here is the cherry on top..that force bound set on a jugg is brutal..i use it on mines..it basically give a accuracy debuff to people after the aoe cc wear off..imagine 4 unkillable juggs with force bound sets on..they take turns cc'ing team and reducing your accuracy in the process..

 

you think that accuracy debuff no big factor..let say a sin going to use assassinate to kill a jugg at 6% hp...he get cc and break it..the accuracy debuff kick in..his assassinate misses..giving the jugg a chance to rush away and pop a dcd if he have one..

 

now this gonna lead to another problem..in order to combat this somewhat..you gonna see mezz comps coming back..cause if jugg leap to group and hit intimidating roar..even if you break it you get debuff..then another jugg come in and use his cc..think you get the picture..

 

saying sins is the problem in pvp..they is not even a big factor..wait until that tactical drop and juggs get that force bound set..you will see a true FOTM..i said enough if i made some mistake do tell..only way to solve problems you must find them..

Edited January 3, 2020 by Xertasian

[Lundorff]

Sins only have so many stealth outs because of the tactical and swapping it around? If they could not do that, sins would have exactly the same setup as 5.0.

 

Also, I’m mainly a Rage Jugg player myself, so I do feel your pain. The reason I’m defending Sins is because their FOTM moniker is undeserved. But because of it, we now have excessive class stacking which only exasperates the situation

 

I’m using this setup on my Jugg and having ok success in 1v1 situations. Of course Maras, Operatives and Sins stealthing up to me in a group don’t help.

 

Yes sins would only get 2 stealth-outs without tactical swapping, but with their burst being what it is, that is still mildly inane. It forces your team to spend time focusing the sin, and if your side have a jugg/pt/sniper well rip. It is hard to say if this would really change anything. I doubt every sins is tactical swapping.

 

And yes 1 v 1 is not a problem on my jugg, but that has so far never happened in 6.0. Literally. If I run a jugg I get focused by at least 2 burst classes - I seems to attract lightning - and I have to use my dcds sooo fast. That is not to say I can't win a match with a jugg, I am 50/50 so far, but that is more about random teams and being lucky rather than carrying my own weight. I might try that tactical for s***s and giggles

 

Edit: Are you talking about regs with your rage jugg or ranked?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Lundorff

[TrixxieTriss]

Yes sins would only get 2 stealth-outs without tactical swapping, but with their burst being what it is, that is still mildly inane. It forces your team to spend time focusing the sin, and if your side have a jugg/pt/sniper well rip. It is hard to say if this would really change anything. I doubt every sins is tactical swapping.

 

And yes 1 v 1 is not a problem on my jugg, but that has so far never happened in 6.0. Literally. If I run a jugg I get focused by at least 2 burst classes - I seems to attract lightning - and I have to use my dcds sooo fast. That is not to say I can't win a match with a jugg, I am 50/50 so far, but that is more about random teams and being lucky rather than carrying my own weight. I might try that tactical for s***s and giggles

 

Edit: Are you talking about regs with your rage jugg or ranked?

 

Sadly, with my lag from Australia since they moved the servers, I can’t play ranked anymore. I can’t stay alive long enough in ranked to even get DCDs to activate. Or I have to guess what’s about to happen and I end up blowing them 50% of the time for no reason. Which just makes everyone on my team mad (and rightly so).

 

So all of my experience is in regs these days. But I do see the same type of things happen in regs. Stealths (even operatives) see me or another Jugg and just focus as a group. I find I have to kite on my Jugg more than I’ve ever needed too in the past. There is no more standing your ground and fighting these guys. Jugg DCDs are good, but they can’t keep up with a stealth group onslaught for every long.

It’s especially bad when you die and a bunch of them stay stealthed at your respawn and it’s nearly instant death as you leave. Of course you can then try the other exit. But you can never really know which one they are camping before you exit.

 

Sins have good burst, but so they should. (Rage Juggs and Maras do too). That’s how the class is built and they have been a bit weak for awhile compared to other melee burst. The one thing they’ve always had going for them is their DCDs, which is why they’ve been able to get away with lower burst in the past.

The one thing that non Sin players seem to forgetting is all that “great Sin burst” is only in the opener. Nothing else has changed for them. The window for that burst is also small and can be negated in a 1v1 and mostly in a 1v2 unless the Sins are totally in sync with each other.

 

I’m sure you are aware that I play most classes in the game and I can see this discussion from both sides of the fence. But I will always prefer to use my Jugg instead of a Sin in pvp if given a choice. So I’m more sympathetic towards Juggs .

 

IMO (which is all this is), the burst and the opener is fine. That’s not the major problem here. It’s using the tac swapping like they are extra abilities or DCDs. That’s what’s breaking this meta and making Sins seem OP. If they couldn’t do that, the most they could hope for is using the opener burst window twice (depending on equiped tac) against good teams per round. That’s not game breaking when you consider all the other burst classes out there that can replicate their burst window ever 10 secs or so.

 

On a sort of a side note. If you are in regs and you get hold of that tactical I mentioned, definitely give it a go. The burst from it is pretty good and you dont even need to change you rotation (unless you are going for the AOE burst).

Edited January 3, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[orillah]

Juggernaut need some passive dr or damage immunity cd.

 

Rage just absolutely worst spec, little to no reason playing it atm. Vengeance have pretty much same st damage with better set synergy and slightly more defences.

 

Warmonger bugging 50% time doesn't help, as well as not having access to embrace the pain. I do doubt like others, that it will change anything for dps jugs.

 

Mercs atm feet "juggernaut" name ways better.

 

Assassin's are indeed very strong, mainly because of high burst + 2 vanishes. Still less cancerous than opers with constant dsync.

Edited January 3, 2020 by orillah

[TrixxieTriss]

Still less cancerous than opers with constant dsync.

 

I’m glad someone else feels that way. Maybe it’s just because of my extra lag that it seems worse. I don’t know.

 

How much lag do you play with?

 

On a good day with no packet loss and no spikes, mine is around 216ms (Im used to this, but operative Dysnc is still really bad for me. Even sin Dysnc is a pain, even when I’m playing a sin)

 

On an average day its 225ms, with 0.1-0.8 packet loss and spikes to 235ms every other 50 secs (this causes frustration)

 

On a bad day it’s 240ms, with 4+% packet loss and lag spikes to 280+ms every other 5-10 secs (pvp is unplayable). This is usually local or on the server side.

 

Add let’s not forget all of Biowares own lag from poor optimisation.

 

While other classes also dysnc, when operative’s roll it seems to be the worst (maybe twice as bad as any other class).

 

Ive also been “forced” to use WTFast VPN since they moved the servers.

Without it, my ping is always above 230ms and completely unsteady. Lag spikes all over the place and packet loss is above average.

Even playing pve under those circumstances is hard, but trying to play pvp is a joke.

[Aetideus]

You embarrass yourself by not recognising the match was class stacked and glossing over that when asking for Nerfs. You don’t even seem to understand what the problem is that’s cause people to switch to Stealths.

Let me give you a hint, it’s the tactical swapping

 

I swap Tacticals both with Assin and Oper. Yet the complain is about Assin + stacking. Why? Obviously, despite your inconvenience in admitting the problem, because Assin got 2 vanish and continues the OvP burst. As mentioned the rest is a hideous and unintelligent rhetoric. The spec should be nerfed somehow to get in line. No one needs another Merc Arsenal stacking.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Aetideus

[Aetideus]

Do you play solo ranked? Everything Roupe said is completely accurate. And juggs are almost always the best targets to focus in arenas unless there are pts. If you think otherwise, you're simply wrong I'm afraid.

 

At least you can appear with your Jugg in SR and hope for the best. There is usually no way for a PT without q-sync. So much about the meta and who needs an actual DCD.

[TrixxieTriss]

I swap Tacticals both with Assin and Oper. Yet the complain is about Assin + stacking. Why? Obviously, despite your inconvenience in admitting the problem, because Assin got 2 vanish and continues the OvP burst. As mentioned the rest is a hideous and unintelligent rhetoric. The spec should be nerfed somehow to get in line. No one needs another Merc Arsenal stacking.

 

Please be more coherent and explain what actually needs to be nerfed and how much. Saying something needs to be nerfed means nothing if you can’t back up your claim

[Aetideus]

Please be more coherent and explain what actually needs to be nerfed and how much. Saying something needs to be nerfed means nothing if you can’t back up your claim

 

There are people more versed in Deception than me, Devs certainly, to conclude HOW should be nerfed. Regarding WHAT should be nerfed, was rather coherent in the comments: "got 2 vanish and continue the OvP burst".

Edited January 4, 2020 by Aetideus

[supertimtaf]

"Let's nerf sin"

"sure, how can we nerf them properly"

"I dunno, just nuke the class, I got ganked by two sins so they must die"

"Er..."

"I preferred the merc meta anyway"

This whole thread in a nutshell.

 

Prevent class stacking is nice, but lmao this will never happen because it will just add another layer of matchmaking, this game cannot afford that because there's already too few peoples playing right now.

 

Just prevent the autocrit if Maul isn't duplicity procced, there you go, you fixed Sin, making the class actually interesting to play while still retaining enough burst to hope to compete against a merc.

 

Maybe remove the tactical swapping too. Or don't. I think that without it, sins aren't that great and don't really need the damage nerf. But doesn't this will affect PvE too ? I dunno if tactical swapping is a thing in high level PvE sin gameplay.

 

I love thread like these, because you see that most players don't really have a clue as to what class can powercreep if sins/oper get nerfed to the ground. Surprise, there's actually three.

[JediMasterAlex]

Just prevent the autocrit if Maul isn't duplicity procced, there you go, you fixed Sin, making the class actually interesting to play while still retaining enough burst to hope to compete against a merc.

 

Maybe remove the tactical swapping too. Or don't. I think that without it, sins aren't that great and don't really need the damage nerf. But doesn't this will affect PvE too ? I dunno if tactical swapping is a thing in high level PvE sin gameplay.

 

You've correctly identified the only two things they need to do to sins. Disallow tactical swapping mid-round (which should never have been a thing, and really shouldn't be considered a sin nerf), and tone down maul spam (there are numerous ways they could do that, one of which is your suggestion). If they made those two changes, sins would still be very good, but it would bring them more in line with other classes.

[bladech]

Op is right because of huge dps from some classes (75k mauls, backstabs, 12k + dps per second from LT sorc, dot pt) all defenses are almost useless. Mercs, sorc, snipers and other classes forced to use all their defenses much faster against god-killing, mighty backstabs/mauls and the only really viable defense which can save from ANY BURST is vanish/camouflage ofcourse since it allows you to dissapear from enemy eyes/damage and fully stop incoming damage. Anything apart from stealth/camouflage is pretty USELESS now. Phase walk is still ok but if your enemies are marauder/oper they will easily chase you.

 

The current problem of this patch is that sins/oper/marauder can reck everyone very fast while other classes doesn't have any huge dps to counter or defenses to survive (both). So now we have stealth/camouflage era....TEAM with more opers/sins wins automatically...

Edited January 4, 2020 by bladech