Guard needs to be on a CD

[DavidAtkinson]

It will never happen, anyway. I just give a possible suggestion if they really think guard is OP'd in the only place I see it could be, which is in regs due to how the meta is played, not just due to pathetic players.

 

It's rare when a tank, healer, and dps all need to work as a 4v4 team in regs, if they are then it's DMing at mid in huttball. Objective play almost always dictates the players move so honestly I don't think guard on a cooldown in regs or a slight nerf would crush gameplay for tanks.

 

That said, I don't view it as big enough of a deal to even touch it.

 

Instead, I'd suggest adding incentives in the WZs so people actualy try to win objectively again. Right now, there seems to be very little reason to even try to win so what you get are guarded healers sitting at mid trying to get as big of numbers as possible by the end of the match. This is another issue, though.

 

Guard seems broken because classes have god mode dcds now... Killing something can take forever and in PVP we are just parsing nowdays. I heard in the past you could get killed very fast ? Maybe back in those times guard wasn't that much of a deal. But today ? Oh well...

 

These classes and mechanics are designed for PVE anyway and that's why we have many issues in PVP... Leave it as it is I say.

[KendraP]

It will never happen, anyway. I just give a possible suggestion if they really think guard is OP'd in the only place I see it could be, which is in regs due to how the meta is played, not just due to pathetic players.

 

It's rare when a tank, healer, and dps all need to work as a 4v4 team in regs, if they are then it's DMing at mid in huttball. Objective play almost always dictates the players move so honestly I don't think guard on a cooldown in regs or a slight nerf would crush gameplay for tanks.

 

That said, I don't view it as big enough of a deal to even touch it.

 

Instead, I'd suggest adding incentives in the WZs so people actualy try to win objectively again. Right now, there seems to be very little reason to even try to win so what you get are guarded healers sitting at mid trying to get as big of numbers as possible by the end of the match. This is another issue, though.

 

When I tank, it's for a healer that usually has 3 or 4 dps chasing him while having next to no friendly dps support because I have my guys off running objectives and the average player that gets matched with us is frankly pathetic. As I said, I find solo tanking in regs has become so pointless as to be a hindrance to the team, because often all you do is ensure the other team has a healer, so I tend to dps if I'm running solo (or occasionally heal (to OP on an operative if sage healing is considered laughably easy too).

 

Besides what, how do you nerf guard in a warzone and not affect it in arenas?

 

Also, what am I, as a tank geared tank since the crit changes, supposed to do when guard is on CD? Dps can taunt and do more damage too. Dps specs of tank capable classes are also significantly squishier than their tank counterparts, compensating for the fact that they can guard (though if you wanted to remove guard from dps specs of tank capable classes I wouldn't care). So while I can't guard, I'm doing nothing that wouldnt be better done by a dps. A tank is warzones, that queues without a healer, is already wasting a space by practically guaranteeing unbalanced healing, so let's make it worse.

Edited September 20, 2019 by KendraP

[Lhancelot]

 

Besides what, how do you nerf guard in a warzone and not affect it in arenas?

 

I am pretty sure the devs with their expert coding could manage this, don't tempt them lol.

 

Look, I don't even see guard as a real issue, even in regs where it can be. I believe that it's a change that simply isn't necessary. They ought to focus on bigger and better things to improve upon when it comes to gameplay issues.

[Stellarcrusade]

Wow, in a patch where two DPS classes are rediculously over powered and healing is pretty much nerfed, unskilled DPSers still have problems because Guard makes tank and dps-tank specs barely worth playing in PvP, albeit still quite hard to be adept. It boggles me quite a bit, bad DPSers called for nerfs in healing, then they still sucked and called for more nerfs, and still suck, and now they call for nerfs in the only other slightly viable spec. The whole time intelligent DPSers have been rocking the world, even before any of the nerfs to the other specs.

 

Do the bad DPSers realize the utopia they are asking for really isn't going to be you playing the OP DPS spec and the rest of the world will be content to play weak heals and weak tank while you pummel them without any skill required. Instead if they weaken the weaker specs even more everyone will simply play DPS.......and what you may not realize, is those smarter players will simply be better than you and you'll still be the worst at the game.

 

You've got it the best right now, it only gets worse for you if your whining is acted upon.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Stellarcrusade

[Raansu]

Guard seems broken because classes have god mode dcds now...

 

The uptick in utilities and DCD's have definitely not helped things. TTK was much shorter back in the day and a lot of utilities and DCD's were locked to specific trees. Hydraulic override for PT's for example was only available in AP spec originally.

 

Guard was still a problem back then though. The uptick in DCD's and utilities has jsut made it worse. 8v8 ranked unless it was kickball or you were just outright extremely better than the other team. it was almost always a stalemate with everyone running 2 tanks and 2 healers. Nothing ever died and that didn't change when they added 4v4.

 

Season 1 tank tunnel was extremely popular with the armor pen specs like pyro PT (before specs were switched) and carnage marauder. Then that strat became "taboo" for whatever reason and everyone switched to hard swaps which only worked if the other team messed up hard and even in many 3v4's, game would still go into acid. Its one of the reasons I stopped doing granked. 3 dps 1 healer is way more fun than tank/healer and 2 dps. Guard just turns everything into a crawl with ridiculous TTK times.

 

Wow, in a patch where two DPS classes are rediculously over powered and healing is pretty much nerfed

 

LOL what? Healing isn't nerfed. What drugs are you on? Healing has been overtuned for years. I can literally run around on my healing Op and never die even with multiple dps jumping on me. Put guard on me and you'll be lucky to get me below 80% hp.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Raansu

[Lhancelot]

LOL what? Healing isn't nerfed. What drugs are you on? Healing has been overtuned for years. I can literally run around on my healing Op and never die even with multiple dps jumping on me. Put guard on me and you'll be lucky to get me below 80% hp.

 

If you said "my healing merc" then I'd be surprised but when you say "healing Ops" it's hard to agree that healing in general is overtuned. Also, is this in ranked or regs?

 

There's a big difference between derping around in regs with guard on a healer versus in ranked with a guard on a healer.

 

Also as I just mentioned, it depends on the healing class, too. It depends on the DPS faced, I mean saying in all circumstances healing is overtuned is false, at least for me it's false.

 

In 4v4s with competent players I find healing and staying alive challenging as a healer. If they nerfed guard or healing it would definitely change how 4v4s were played and might even change how teams form up.

 

I mean say if guard ended up not worth the drop-off in DPS, teams might prefer 3 dps and a healer versus 2 dps, tank and a healer. If heals were nerfed, well then teams would probably prefer 3 dps and tank over 2 dps, 1 tank and healer.

 

I just don't see them ever changing up this meta tbh. It seems that 2 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer is the format BW wants for the game for a 4 man team in PVP.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Lhancelot

[Raansu]

If you said "my healing merc" then I'd be surprised but when you say "healing Ops" it's hard to agree that healing in general is overtuned. Also, is this in ranked or regs?

 

There's a big difference between derping around in regs with guard on a healer versus in ranked with a guard on a healer.

 

Also as I just mentioned, it depends on the healing class, too. It depends on the DPS faced, I mean saying in all circumstances healing is overtuned is false, at least for me it's false.

 

In 4v4s with competent players I find healing and staying alive challenging as a healer. If they nerfed guard or healing it would definitely change how 4v4s were played and might even change how teams form up.

 

I mean say if guard ended up not worth the drop-off in DPS, teams might prefer 3 dps and a healer versus 2 dps, tank and a healer. If heals were nerfed, well then teams would probably prefer 3 dps and tank over 2 dps, 1 tank and healer.

 

I just don't see them ever changing up this meta tbh. It seems that 2 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer is the format BW wants for the game for a 4 man team in PVP.

 

-I don't want healers nerfed, just overall in general survivability to go down. A lot of utilities and DCD's need to be trimmed/removed. Half the time pvp regardless of ranked or regs it feels like I'm just parsing cuz people just don't die unless there's no healer or tank on either team....and even then it can feel like a parsing at times with how many damn self heal abilities are going on out there.

 

-If you find staying alive as a healer is challenging I dunno what to tell you. I used to run heals in solo ranked simply because it was stupid easy to carry as a healer.

 

-Changing guard to actually require a thought process and some skill isn't going to make tanks unwanted. I'm not saying nerf how much guard protects, but I am saying it should be limited in some capacity. Also, take taunts away from dps and you still have value for tanks since taunts should be exclusive to tank spec in pvp just like guard should be exclusive to tank spec.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Raansu

[KendraP]

Sure guard is brainless for a tank that doesn't bother guard swapping and tries to be a sad dps. I mean, without guard swapping all a tank does is sad dps.

 

Even when I was running dps gear on my tank, i can easily out damage and certainly outkill things as a dps guardian. The tanks advantage is staying alive longer and taking damage for the team. That's kind of the entire point.

 

Your average pugs inability to kill anything isnt my tanks problem; nor is the fact they decided to give dps classes extra survivability. If the issue is dps with too many DCDs maybe address that problem with dps specs.

 

Oh wait, less survivability would hurt your dps numbers and we couldnt have that!

[Raansu]

Sure guard is brainless for a tank that doesn't bother guard swapping and tries to be a sad dps. I mean, without guard swapping all a tank does is sad dps.

 

Ya because guard swapping takes so much effort....Whoopie all you gotta worry about is the GCD The skill has no CD, and it lasts until you remove it. Its a braindead ability.

 

Oh wait, less survivability would hurt your dps numbers and we couldnt have that!

 

I'm sure I'll be just fine.

[KendraP]

Ya because guard swapping takes so much effort....Whoopie all you gotta worry about is the GCD The skill has no CD, and it lasts until you remove it. Its a braindead ability.

.

 

The point isn't that guard swapping is overly difficult. The point is that guard swapping is something a tank has to do in ADDITION to what dps has to worry about.

 

Me personally, I don't think any role in swtor is overly hard, so complaining about whose job is hardest is just stupid.

Edited September 20, 2019 by KendraP

[Raansu]

The point isn't that guard swapping is overly difficult. The point is that guard swapping is something a tank has to do in ADDITION to what dps has to worry about.

 

And? That doesn't change the fact that guard is a mindless skill that's always been way too strong. They either need to reduce the percentage of damage it reduces to the guarded player or it needs to be on some kind of CD. Or better yet, give guard health and allow it to be broken down over time.

[KendraP]

And? That doesn't change the fact that guard is a mindless skill that's always been way too strong. They either need to reduce the percentage of damage it reduces to the guarded player or it needs to be on some kind of CD. Or better yet, give guard health and allow it to be broken down over time.

 

maybe they should nerf all dps then too, since it's arguably even more mindless. That's the point right?

 

or name one thing a dps has to worry about that a tank does NOT have to worry about.

[Raansu]

maybe they should nerf all dps then too, since it's arguably even more mindless. That's the point right?

 

or name one thing a dps has to worry about that a tank does NOT have to worry about.

 

Nothing? They have to pay attention to their DCD's just like a tank does. Some of their DCD's are broken and need to be changed, but we're not talking about dps, we're talking about guard and how since launch its been the sole cause of stalemates in ranked and reg matches.

 

Anyways, you have no argument so I'm done with you. BWA, fix guard already, its been ignored for far too long and its time for that skill to be completely redesigned.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Raansu

[Zurules]

we're talking about guard and how since launch its been the sole cause of stalemates in ranked and reg matches.

 

Anyways, you have no argument so I'm done with you. BWA, fix guard already, its been ignored for far too long and its time for that skill to be completely redesigned.

 

The whole point of guard is to allow people to stabilize situations. That's one of guard's main purposes and it is what tanks are supposed to do.

 

I am glad they have not touched guard over the years, it shows that they understand the game they designed vs what you like or do not like because of l2p issues players have with playing the game.

 

In 8v8 ranked, the BEST games were stalemates and they did not happen very often. Playing the game properly and having a stalemate is a huge success in my eyes. It shows that the balance is correct. But if you play the game incorrectly/poorly, then you cannot accurately determine what balance should look like. As i said in a earlier post, because the quality of pvpers is so bad these days, things seem op when they are not.

 

As an example: If 3k dps is the balanced target for x dps spec to reach the targeted ttk for the average player. The player playing that dps spec can only do 1.8k max and has a hard time killing stuff, then the ttk will be higher because his dps is lower than the expected average player should be doing. Right now, the majority of players do way bellow what is expected of an average pvper should be doing, so ofcourse the ttk is higher than targeted. THIS IS A L2P ISSUE. Not to mention the amount of pvpers who do not use all the tools available to them. An extreme example would be a healer who never uses a healing ability. Is the game not balanced because the healer did not use any healing abilities and people died too fast?

 

You do not balance a game around people who do not know how to play it, you balance it around people who understand how to play it.

 

Do not get me wrong, finding the right balance in a game this complex is extremely difficult. One thing they definitely have right is how guard works.

[KendraP]

Nothing? They have to pay attention to their DCD's just like a tank does. Some of their DCD's are broken and need to be changed, but we're not talking about dps, we're talking about guard and how since launch its been the sole cause of stalemates in ranked and reg matches.

 

Anyways, you have no argument so I'm done with you. BWA, fix guard already, its been ignored for far too long and its time for that skill to be completely redesigned.

 

That's the point, eh.

 

guard is mindless and should be nerfed --> tanks have to worry about something a dps does NOT --> dps is even MORE mindless --> dps should be nered too, right?????

 

find the blatant logical pitfall, because all I did was turn your logic back on you.

[Raansu]

The whole point of guard is to allow people to stabilize situations. That's one of guard's main purposes and it is what tanks are supposed to do.

 

And that's fine, but that doesn't mean it should last basically indefinitely.

 

I am glad they have not touched guard over the years, it shows that they understand the game they designed vs what you like or do not like because of l2p issues players have with playing the game.

 

That's a joke right? PvP hasn't been balanced since 2.x era, and even then it was sketchy with the bubble stun drama, but overall class balance was the closest to being balanced in pvp throughout swtors life. We're talking about a team that gave mercs 3 heal to full skills with one of them being a reflect. Or how about snipers who used to be glass cannons that were supposed to be immobile and now have DCD's up the wazoo and are super mobile. Or how about the fact that they let ranged classes cast on the move? Bubble stun? like that list goes on.

 

BW has no clue what they are doing. Ever since 4v4 came out all they have done is added more and more self sustainability turning pvp into a parsing match as they tried to balance solo's which is an impossible endeavor (lets be real, solo ranked should have never been a thing.)

 

In 8v8 ranked, the BEST games were stalemates and they did not happen very often.

LOL do what? Stalemates in 8v8 ranked were super common. The only time my team in 8v8 ranked did not have a stalemate is when we came across kickball groups and most of them just tried to cheese out with bubble stun back when the bubble stun popped applied on teammates as well.

 

As an example: If 3k dps is the balanced target for x dps spec to reach the targeted ttk for the average player. The player playing that dps spec can only do 1.8k max and has a hard time killing stuff, then the ttk will be higher because his dps is lower than the expected average player should be doing. Right now, the majority of players do way bellow what is expected of an average pvper should be doing, so ofcourse the ttk is higher than targeted. THIS IS A L2P ISSUE. Not to mention the amount of pvpers who do not use all the tools available to them. An extreme example would be a healer who never uses a healing ability. Is the game not balanced because the healer did not use any healing abilities and people died too fast?

 

TTK has gone up because partly of the percentage between burst and health pools, but mostly because there are too many DCD's and utlitlies now. Most classes didn't even have half the self sustainability they have now a days.

 

Do not get me wrong, finding the right balance in a game this complex is extremely difficult. One thing they definitely have right is how guard works.

 

Negative. Guard has always been a poorly implemented mechanic. It should be a CD like any other defensive skill.

 

That's the point, eh.

 

guard is mindless and should be nerfed --> tanks have to worry about something a dps does NOT --> dps is even MORE mindless --> dps should be nered too, right?????

 

find the blatant logical pitfall, because all I did was turn your logic back on you.

 

Last I checked, DCD's last for a short amount of time and require the player to make a decision on whether they want to burn a long CD within that situation. Guard has no CD and lasts basically indefinitely, there's not much drawback to using and there's no consequences for bad timing or placing it on the wrong player. So no, you did not turn anything back on me. You actually have no argument.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Raansu

[KendraP]

t I checked, DCD's last for a short amount of time and require the player to make a decision on whether they want to burn a long CD within that situation. Guard has no CD and lasts basically indefinitely, there's not much drawback to using and there's no consequences for bad timing or placing it on the wrong player. So no, you did not turn anything back on me. You actually have no argument.

 

Both dps and tanks have DCDs to use, so that is rather pointless as to tanking being more mindless.

 

Name one thing a dps has to do that a tank does not. Because however difficult or easy it may be to use and swap around, guard swapping is a thing tanks have to worry about that dps by definition do NOT, ergo I argue tanking is (however minutely) less mindless than dpsing.

 

Your inability to refute your own logical flaw is not my doing.

[Zurules]

That's a joke right? PvP hasn't been balanced since 2.x era, and even then it was sketchy with the bubble stun drama, but overall class balance was the closest to being balanced in pvp throughout swtors life. We're talking about a team that gave mercs 3 heal to full skills with one of them being a reflect. Or how about snipers who used to be glass cannons that were supposed to be immobile and now have DCD's up the wazoo and are super mobile. Or how about the fact that they let ranged classes cast on the move? Bubble stun? like that list goes on.

 

there's no consequences for bad timing or placing it on the wrong player. .

 

Remember we are talking about guard and its role in the balance of the game. We are not talking about class balance.

 

"there is no consequence for bad timing or playing it on the wrong player" This is a crucial mistake that can cause your team to lose off just that 1 mistake. Who in the world do you play with and against that made you believe this???

[DzastinBiberi]

Good tanks can outdps most dpsers while at the same time, guard swapping. Braindead tanks cant do much in both area's.

[Raansu]

Both dps and tanks have DCDs to use, so that is rather pointless as to tanking being more mindless.

 

Name one thing a dps has to do that a tank does not. Because however difficult or easy it may be to use and swap around, guard swapping is a thing tanks have to worry about that dps by definition do NOT, ergo I argue tanking is (however minutely) less mindless than dpsing.

 

Your inability to refute your own logical flaw is not my doing.

 

There is no logical flaw. You're literally just projecting nonsense to avoid an actual conversation. Guard is a broken mechanic. It needs to function like every other DCD in the game where it only lasts a certain amount of time and it goes on CD.

[KendraP]

There is no logical flaw. You're literally just projecting nonsense to avoid an actual conversation. Guard is a broken mechanic. It needs to function like every other DCD in the game where it only lasts a certain amount of time and it goes on CD.

 

you started the brainless nonsense, I was just pointing out that dpsing is equally brainless. Still waiting for one thing a dps has to worry about that a tank doesnt.

Edited September 21, 2019 by KendraP

[Raansu]

you started the brainless nonsense, I was just pointing out that dpsing is equally brainless. Still waiting for one thing a dps has to worry about that a tank doesnt.

 

Still waiting for that good argument that guard is balanced. I've yet to see one.

[Lhancelot]

you started the brainless nonsense, I was just pointing out that dpsing is equally brainless. Still waiting for one thing a dps has to worry about that a tank doesnt.

 

Tanks do everything DPS do, and more. Tanks have to target teammates and use taunts. That right there adds complexity to their gameplay that most DPS do not have to worry about, unless they happen to have taunts.

 

DPS still never have to worry about teammates, at least that's how most of them play anyway lol. Thing is, even a good DPS that peels still never has to swap friendly targets while tanks do that as well as swap on enemies.

 

DPS is by far the simplest class role to play.

[KendraP]

Still waiting for that good argument that guard is balanced. I've yet to see one.

 

Others have provided that for you in painful, if arrogant, detail. I dont feel like getting the lobotomy going into yet another guard is OP discussion with yet another dps that thinks things dont die fast enough but please dont make me squishier type would take. I've made my arguments for guard over probably several dozen pages of these forums over the last 3 or 4 years. Go read them for a rational discussion.

 

You said guard was brainless, I merely point out that dps is brainless and requested an example as to what a dps has to do that a tank doesnt.

[Raansu]

Tanks do everything DPS do, and more. Tanks have to target teammates and use taunts. That right there adds complexity to their gameplay that most DPS do not have to worry about, unless they happen to have taunts.

 

It really doesn't.

 

Others have provided that for you in painful, if arrogant, detail.

 

Not one has given a good reasoning for guard being the way it is. Anyone who thinks a 50% damage reduction ability that can be swapped between teammates with no drawback to it and it lasts basically indefinitely is straight up out of their minds. This mechanic has been broken since day one.

 

dont feel like getting the lobotomy going into yet another guard is OP discussion with yet another dps that thinks things dont die fast enough but please dont make me squishier type would take.

 

Unlike you, I want things to be balanced and wont pretend everything is fine when something is broken. Case in point, way back when guarded by the force could be brought down to a 45s CD between the reduction talent in focus spec plus the reduction from the gear set bonus I was one of the first on the forums to say that it was broken and something should be changed and I'm a sentinel main since day one. I was also one of the early players to swap from watchman to focus before anyone else realized how insane the spec was. Then when it got buffed I said it was going to be way overkill and sure enough it was.

 

I've made my arguments for guard over probably several dozen pages of these forums over the last 3 or 4 years. Go read them for a rational discussion.

 

I've seen them in the past and I recall they were all the same as here. No real argument, just dismissive nonsense of you basically saying "please don't nerf my broken mechanic herp derp something something dps."

 

You said guard was brainless, I merely point out that dps is brainless and requested an example as to what a dps has to do that a tank doesnt.

 

Case in point in how you love to bring up crap like this. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that guard requires no forethought to use. It has no CD management, no buff management to pay attention to, just toss it on someone who's taking damage and only worry about the GCD. You trying to change whatever nonsense onto dps is *********** idiotic because you have no real counter argument. Guard is broken, plain and simple.