If not RNG ... then what are the options?

[Lhancelot]

Spuds.... Love ya... but I need to correct one thing here..................

 

EA has managed to destroy 90% of the development companies they have acquired. The Start Wars title just allowed this one to hang on a little longer.

 

From the outside looking in, it seems EA has been fairly patient and given BW freedom to do what they will with their resources. Anthem would indicate this.

 

BW chose to not develop or work on SWTOR, they also chose to create a new title game called Anthem, and they have chosen the game design/development themselves for both games.

 

I seriously doubt EA forced BW to run heavy RNG gearing, they also did not instruct BW on how to write or create their stories later on in KOTFE etc. These game changes are all being done by BW and their brain trust.

 

I just think it's too convenient to blame EA for the state of this game when BW is mostly responsible.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Lhancelot

[olagatonjedi]

Ive said it before and will restate it. There are inherent non-negotiable rules that are the constants of the MMO genre. You must first accept these before you can have a meaningful discussion on what loot system proposals to submit.

 

1) the company will always have a preset timetable established for when they are comfortable with players acquiring BIS gear; usually based on projected due date of the next full expansion (exceptions may include end-game raid content)

2) no matter what system is implemented (rng or not, grind or not), it will be tweaked to allow for #1

3) they will not entirely scrap the planned loot system no matter how much feedback is given by "the majority" (lol)

4) (more often than not) - expect the loot system, or stat distribution/efficacy to be adjusted every full expansion

 

If you provide feedback without accounting for these realities, you will likely walk away thinking they ignored your "great idea" that "everyone agrees" about.

Edited September 11, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[OlBuzzard]

Looks like we've managed to wander OT a bit... Regardless of blame … the question is if NOT RNG … then what are the options. Below are just a couple of good examples of good direct answers.

 

Of course it can be answered, it WAS answered in the other big thread about 6.0 RNG Gearing.

 

Tokens: different difficulty content rewards more or less Tokens.

 

Trade In: Trade Tokens directly for the GEAR YOU WANT.

 

Simples.

 

 

All The Best

 

AND

 

I've often said that there should be one standard currency, call it whatever you want, that drops from EVERYTHING you do.

Do cz-198 weeklies....get 100 units

Do SM EV...get 100 units per boss

DO HM EV...get 300 units per boss

Do MM EV...get 600 units per boss

 

Go to whichever vendor you want and buy whatever gear you need.

 

Couple that with the gear trade in system for upgrades that we have...

 

That system would work. Trade in + standard currency. Buy whatever you want from the vendor.

 

It should be noted that this really is not a debate on RNG (yes or no ) or the validity of RNG or who is responsible tor things happening in the games current condition. My motive is simple: If RNG is not the answer .. then what is?

 

I would like to reiterate or reinforce the topic question with a previous post / quote.

There have been a couple of really good threads trying to insure that BW knows that RNG at the current planned scale is totally unacceptable. Bringing several form that same group to state at point blank what should be considered is what this is all about.

 

I doubt very seriously that BW would ever take my advise … (it really is just that way).

 

BUT ! What has been posted this time ( in ALL of the threads ) … Well... IMO … there's just no excuse for not taking some steps to make some changes.

 

There's a good way to handle this. There is little question in my mind whatsoever. Even if it took hand picking a few people that BW felt that they could trust for a few days in private discussion or testing … IMO .. I want that 3rd option!

 

Many players in this game really want 6.0 to succeed !

 

I would personally prefer at the end of the day to be able to still shake hands with many that I see here daily.. INCLUDING the dev team. I really mean that !

 

IF not RNG … what are the options? I submit to those who might be reading this … There have been some good ideas presented here AGAIN ! Some of those truly have been around for a while now !

 

Best Regards

 

Note: not a rant.. just going back to a more specific direction ! No offense to anyone intended !

[Lhancelot]

Ive said it before and will restate it.

 

If you had to find another way of gearing besides RNG, what would you do? Or do you like heavy RNG-based gearing?

[olagatonjedi]

If you had to find another way of gearing besides RNG, what would you do? Or do you like heavy RNG-based gearing?

Ive played games with worse loot systems and better loot systems. All 4 of the constants listed above happened in each of them (with and without my feedback). Ive learned that no loot system will ever be agreeable to everyone playing the game, and the pros for 50% of the population will be the cons for the other 50% - no matter what. My experience has taught me to control what i can control, and that the thing i can control is my reaction and adaptability. I dont care what loot system they implement, personally. I will use my brain and instincts to adapt to it and profit the way i enjoy playing the game, and understand the limitations I place on myself and my goals for the game. Seriously, the sooner people come to grips with the realities of MMOs, the more enjoyable and less stressed they will be.

 

Additionally, for all the effort people put in with their feedback, they seem to forget that it will be shortlived and be changed at the next gear update anyways. So honestly whats the point of fighting about it in the first place? You will wither stay or leave at some point.

Edited September 11, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[Lhancelot]

Ive played games with worse loot systems and better loot systems. All 4 of the constants listed above happened in each of them (with and without my feedback). Ive learned that no loot system will ever be agreeable to everyone playing the game, and the pros for 50% of the population will be the cons for the other 50% - no matter what. My experience has taught me to control what i can control, and that the thing i can control is my reaction and adaptability. I dont care what loot system they implement, personally. I will use my brain and instincts to adapt to it and profit the way i enjoy playing the game, and understand the limitations I place on myself and my goals for the game. Seriously, the sooner people come to grips with the realities of MMOs, the more enjoyable and less stressed they will be.

 

Additionally, for all the effort people put in with their feedback, they seem to forget that it will be shortlived and be changed at the next gear update anyways. So honestly whats the point of fighting about it in the first place? You will wither stay or leave at some point.

 

What keeps you playing if you have absolutely no standards that the game has to meet?

 

I agree it's better to not fret about things outside of our control. But when it comes to games I have less tolerance for what I consider a substandard experience. I have some pretty basic standards that have to be met.

 

If this were a free endeavor, then sure I would be much more apt to go with the flow of things, but seeing it's a paid for product I do have some higher standards in place.

[olagatonjedi]

What keeps you playing if you have absolutely no standards that the game has to meet?

 

I agree it's better to not fret about things outside of our control. But when it comes to games I have less tolerance for what I consider a substandard experience. I have some pretty basic standards that have to be met.

 

If this were a free endeavor, then sure I would be much more apt to go with the flow of things, but seeing it's a paid for product I do have some higher standards in place.

I never said that i dont have standards for the game. They are just realistic and partially controllable from my side, especially when im investing so much time and money into it.

 

Furthermore, i am invested in the game, but i also control my own choice to stay or leave. The moment it doesnt give me what i want, i am comfortable and adaptable enough to walk away

Edited September 11, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[Ellisande]

I hear that some games have these things called quests and you get gear from completing these quests.

 

RNG loot makes sense in games like Diablo but wouldn't really make sense in a tight story focused game like Baldur's Gate 2.

 

But to be honest SWTOR from day one has never had a good system. In fact they've all been downright terrible. The point in my life when I was interested in a gear chase ended before SWTOR even began.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ellisande

[ZionHalcyon]

I hear that some games have these things called quests and you get gear from completing these quests.

 

RNG loot makes sense in games like Diablo but wouldn't really make sense in a tight story focused game like Baldur's Gate 2.

 

But to be honest SWTOR from day one has never had a good system. In fact they've all been downright terrible. The point in my life when I was interested in a gear chase ended before SWTOR even began.

 

Here's the thing.

 

All other MMOs have a degree of RNG to their loot. Its why I don't get the whole "NO RNG!!!" crowd when it comes to loot. Every other MMO has it - TO A DEGREE.

 

Now, if you want to have a debate on just how much RNG was acceptable, and what is too much, now THAT to me is a RATIONAL debate.

 

But to demand its removal? Seems overkill based on an emotional response.

 

And this is coming from someone who felt that the original PTS iteration of loot was WAY too much RNG. But I have been providing CONSTRUCTIVE feedback in the PTS, and have been chilling until the changes they talked about are made before I test again, so that I am not driving myself nuts playing a system with too much RNG that I know is going to change soon anyway.

 

See, I also manage my OWN expectations too - what good would it do me other than to frustrate me to the point of irrationality by playing PTS right now when I know changes are coming next week that could improve my experience?

[Lhancelot]

I hear that some games have these things called quests and you get gear from completing these quests.

 

RNG loot makes sense in games like Diablo but wouldn't really make sense in a tight story focused game like Baldur's Gate 2.

 

But to be honest SWTOR from day one has never had a good system. In fact they've all been downright terrible. The point in my life when I was interested in a gear chase ended before SWTOR even began.

 

I sort of concur, 90% of the time the gearing systems have been abysmal for me. Around 3.0-4.0 it improved for PVPers so I viewed it favorably during this time.

 

It was short-lived though, as the game then took a new game design route turning from an alt-drvien game to a one toon focused game shortly after they seemed to have made the gearing system quite nice especially for PVPers.

 

They (BW) seem confused. On one hand they indicate with words they want to make it so we can play our way, yet by having a heavy grind for gears and very little flexibility in gearing alts this flies in the face of that narrative.

 

I guess technically a heavy gear grind and making it harder to gear alts doesn't force you to not "play your way" but they will have to improve gearing so it's more flexible for alts if they want people to feel like they truly can play their way and not be punished on their alts when it comes to gearing them.

 

Well, in time we will see how 6.0 goes. I hope it's a success, I really do.

[olagatonjedi]

I sort of concur, 90% of the time the gearing systems have been abysmal for me. Around 3.0-4.0 it improved for PVPers so I viewed it favorably during this time.

 

It was short-lived though, as the game then took a new game design route turning from an alt-drvien game to a one toon focused game shortly after they seemed to have made the gearing system quite nice especially for PVPers.

 

They (BW) seem confused. On one hand they indicate with words they want to make it so we can play our way, yet by having a heavy grind for gears and very little flexibility in gearing alts this flies in the face of that narrative.

 

I guess technically a heavy gear grind and making it harder to gear alts doesn't force you to not "play your way" but they will have to improve gearing so it's more flexible for alts if they want people to feel like they truly can play their way and not be punished on their alts when it comes to gearing them.

 

Well, in time we will see how 6.0 goes. I hope it's a success, I really do.

"Play your way" refers to playing whatever content you want to acquire loot, not specifically customizing your loot the way you want. Its more intuitive and should create more activity in all areas of the game. Thats assuming people are playing for the content in the first place, and not just for gear acquisition.

 

The players need to tread lightly with what they want. If the feedback indicates they primarily care about content, regardless of how the loot system works, future resources will be allocated to content. If the feedback indicates they primarily care about how loot is acquired, then the future content will suffer because its deemed not as important. Every action, or reaction has an unintended effect. I hope enough players understand this. The players will truly make or break this game.

[kodrac]

The players need to tread lightly with what they want. If the feedback indicates they primarily care about content, regardless of how the loot system works, future resources will be allocated to content.

 

You have entirely too much blind faith in them if you actually believe that. It's a nice sentiment and theory but that's all it is. Practice has shown otherwise. They've had literal years of feedback stating new content is wanted, even needed, and we keep getting new grinds instead. Maybe you can blame Anthem development for that but it's just another excuse. Conquest changes, class nerfs, new gear tiers and new ways to acquire it. None of that is new content. The tidbits of story and daily areas is just the vehicle used to add the latest gear grind. It's a big leap to even suggest resources are allocated by player feedback. Especially from you since you're always harping on player feedback being a tiny minority or misguided and/or wrong.

Edited September 13, 2019 by kodrac

[olagatonjedi]

You have entirely too much blind faith in them if you actually believe that. It's a nice sentiment and theory but that's all it is. Practice has shown otherwise. They've had literal years of feedback stating new content is wanted, even needed, and we keep getting new grinds instead. Maybe you can blame Anthem development for that but it's just another excuse. Conquest changes, class nerfs, new gear tiers and new ways to acquire it. None of that is new content. The tidbits of story and daily areas is just the vehicle used to add the latest gear grind. It's a big leap to even suggest resources are allocated by player feedback. Especially from you since you're always harping on player feedback being a tiny minority or misguided and/or wrong.

I see lots of resources being dedicated to fine tuning the loot system. Thats hours of manpower dedicated to something that will be eventually be changed to something 50% of the population will hate again vs dedicating it to more actual content that can feed that hunger.

 

Its like hiring a plumber to fix 2 leak. He finishes leak 1 and is about to head to leak 2, and you ask him to re-route the piping of leak 1. When hes done, again before moving on to leak 2, you start asking him to clean up the water from the leak 1. Meanwhile leak 2 never gets the attention it needs.

 

And btw, the feedback indicates that the overall playerbase is ok with grinds.

Edited September 13, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[DarthSpuds]

Here's the thing.

 

All other MMOs have a degree of RNG to their loot. Its why I don't get the whole "NO RNG!!!" crowd when it comes to loot. Every other MMO has it - TO A DEGREE.

 

Wrong.

 

LOTRO - Quests award Tokens.

Trade Tokens for EXACTLY what you want.

No RNG at all.

 

All The Best

[ZionHalcyon]

Wrong.

 

LOTRO - Quests award Tokens.

Trade Tokens for EXACTLY what you want.

No RNG at all.

 

All The Best

 

Ok, then.

 

MOST other MMOs use RNG.

 

Now please show me which MMOs don't use RNG compared to which one's do, since you like to do work apparently.

 

Or you know, you could stop being deliberately obtuse because you know exactly what I meant...

[ZionHalcyon]

I see lots of resources being dedicated to fine tuning the loot system. Thats hours of manpower dedicated to something that will be eventually be changed to something 50% of the population will hate again vs dedicating it to more actual content that can feed that hunger.

 

Its like hiring a plumber to fix 2 leak. He finishes leak 1 and is about to head to leak 2, and you ask him to re-route the piping of leak 1. When hes done, again before moving on to leak 2, you start asking him to clean up the water from the leak 1. Meanwhile leak 2 never gets the attention it needs.

 

And btw, the feedback indicates that the overall playerbase is ok with grinds.

 

 

I agree with you here.

 

I also understand Krodac's position because frankly, long time players have been snakebit so bad by this game's dev team so often, I don't blame them if they don't want to believe it, or if it interferes with their objectivity - in fact I'd say that's only natural.

 

However, it's actually precisely that I know BioWare's past that I have some hope.

 

Because ever since Keith got here, I've noticed a lot of little differences that are easy to overlook, but if you add them up, point to some bigger positive changes that have occurred that could give some hope.

 

However, precisely because it IS BioWare, I'm comfortable in saying I am very cautiously optimistic.

 

I'm not predicting they will pull it off, but I am somewhat hopeful that we will have the best expansion we've had in a while.

[Lhancelot]

Ok, then.

 

MOST other MMOs use RNG.

 

Now please show me which MMOs don't use RNG compared to which one's do, since you like to do work apparently.

 

EQ1 did not use RNG, neither did EQ2.

 

WAR had some RNG early on but iirc, they ended up "correcting" it and made gearing far better later on in the game's development. Sadly for WAR the changes came too late and the game died anyway.

 

I honestly never experienced RNG on this level till SWTOR, but I have not played many newer MMOs, so maybe this is the new thing I don't know. I just know older games did not use this lazy tactic to cover up a lack of actual content, which is all it really is.

 

Anyway, like we came to conclude, RNG is like salt. In small amounts it's not a bad thing, but when used as the staple of gearing as it is right now on SWTOR it's bad. You can't eat salt as the main meal just like you shouldn't create a gearing system that predominantly features RNG as the basis to it's gearing.

[kodrac]

And btw, the feedback indicates that the overall playerbase is ok with grinds.

 

I wouldn't say the feedback indicates it, maybe what they've put into practice might suggest the appearance. That's how metrics get skewed.

[Lhancelot]

However, precisely because it IS BioWare, I'm comfortable in saying I am very cautiously optimistic. I am somewhat hopeful that we will have the best expansion we've had in a while.

 

I actually tried hard to force myself into being positive quite a few months ago, I can't even remember what update was looming then, but I too like Keith and I think he comes off as genuine, not deceptive at all.

 

But I can't help but consider since he has been here we are still facing RNG and watching another gear system getting gutted only to be replaced by a gearing system that honestly looks worse than the one it will be replacing.

 

Like you said, we been snake bit too many times, and I view our criticism as being fairly objective with that in mind than being optimistic and putting blind faith into Keith and 6.0.

 

Criticism and distrust can be formed from completely objective viewpoints imo, and just because optimism is being exercised that doesn't automatically make it objective.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Lhancelot

[kodrac]

I'm not predicting they will pull it off, but I am somewhat hopeful that we will have the best expansion we've had in a while.

 

I wish I could share your optimism. Like you say, I'm snake bit. I'm usually not pessimistic, maybe cynical if only for humor's sake, but I'm always encouraging the people around me and finding silver linings. But this game and it's development cycle... ugh, it's just.... toxic.

[Lhancelot]

I wish I could share your optimism. Like you say, I'm snake bit. I'm usually not pessimistic, maybe cynical if only for humor's sake, but I'm always encouraging the people around me and finding silver linings. But this game and it's development cycle... ugh, it's just.... toxic.

 

This is my sentiment, too. Pretty much 100%. I find it hard to find anything positive in what appears to be coming down the pipeline.

[Rion_Starkiller]

*Some* RNG is fine, the problem is that GC RNG is pure random gearing. It is not focused at all. Then we moved on to Ossus where you roll for a type of token, then the token rolls for the actual piece of gear. That's like double RNG.

 

It's one thing when an ops boss has a chance to drop something (Corruptor Blade from Corruptor Zero), and quite another for that same boss to have a chance to drop an item that let's you roll for another item.

 

Can we stop stacking RNG? It's incredibly frustrating.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[olagatonjedi]

EQ1 did not use RNG

Lol, you're right about that. For better or worse, though. Once upon a time they didnt mind making a player camp a spot for 24 hours to get the item they wanted. And the players ate it up and , dare i say, found it worth it. Hell, i camped a spawn for 16 hours until i had to go to work and hired my sister to play in my stead just to stay in fabled camp line. Set up alarms to go off every 4 hours to check for rare spawns. Good times then, but i dont think THAT type of grind would go over well for the specific loot being sought.

[ZionHalcyon]

EQ1 did not use RNG, neither did EQ2.

 

WAR had some RNG early on but iirc, they ended up "correcting" it and made gearing far better later on in the game's development. Sadly for WAR the changes came too late and the game died anyway.

 

I honestly never experienced RNG on this level till SWTOR, but I have not played many newer MMOs, so maybe this is the new thing I don't know. I just know older games did not use this lazy tactic to cover up a lack of actual content, which is all it really is.

 

Anyway, like we came to conclude, RNG is like salt. In small amounts it's not a bad thing, but when used as the staple of gearing as it is right now on SWTOR it's bad. You can't eat salt as the main meal just like you shouldn't create a gearing system that predominantly features RNG as the basis to it's gearing.

 

I find that assessment of RNG perfectly fair. And I also agree with it.

 

But the issue is, because people have over-reacted, they can't even have a civil conversation about a little bit of RNG.

[ZionHalcyon]

Lol, you're right about that. For better or worse, though. Once upon a time they didnt mind making a player camp a spot for 24 hours to get the item they wanted. And the players ate it up and , dare i say, found it worth it. Hell, i camped a spawn for 16 hours until i had to go to work and hired my sister to play in my stead just to stay in fabled camp line. Set up alarms to go off every 4 hours to check for rare spawns. Good times then, but i dont think THAT type of grind would go over well for the specific loot being sought.

 

Question on that. Did the item drop 100% of the time from the spawn, and the spawn timer was the constricting factor?