Very critical, but I think ultimately fair "pre-mortem" on SWTOR

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

These kinds of articles hurt this game a lot because a player willing to try TOR out might get the wrong impression that his game a ghost town waiting to be shut down....

 

While Star Forge still have 3 instances on fleet almost all the time no less heh.

 

If Star Forge stayed the way it is from now on, population wise, with how the queces pop, I'd be thrilled.

 

I'm not saying by that I think the other servers are subpar by that, I just don't play on them so I can't speak to their state first hand is all.

[Lhancelot]

These kinds of articles hurt this game a lot because a player willing to try TOR out might get the wrong impression that his game a ghost town waiting to be shut down....

 

This might be true, but I blame ignorant people for this, not an article that expresses one person's opinion.

 

The problem with people is we tend to read sources that already keep our own personal biases in mind. This is problematic obviously, as it only serves to boost our ego by confirming what we already "know" to be true.

 

I try hard to read different sources of information to try to avoid this, whether I personally agree or disagree with the author's opinion. Then I try to come to a conclusion based on the different materials I read or heard.

 

Anyway, I don't have a personal bias for or against that author or whatever company he writes for. I do agree with a few points of his though, one being that SWTOR seems to create "content" that most do not ask for and instead of create content most do not want.

 

 

Examples:

 

 

• -Totally dismantling conquest when the problems people had with it only required a few tweaks to improve it. No one ever asked for an entire reworking of conquest.
   
   
  
• -Gutting and destroying gearing system after gearing system making them worse after every drastic gearing system change. No one asked for a new gearing system, yet here we have 5.10, introducing yet another layer of gearing.
   
   
  
• -Gear grinds. Yes, we all understand MMOs have grinds, and grinds are not bad. However, no one asked for a confusing added grind that has restrictions on all different facets of said gear grind making it awful tedious and really harsh on gearing alts.
   
   
  
• -Locked in mods, to further remove the ability to min/max stats. Did anyone complain that the option to change out all mods on gears enabling them to tweak their stats was bad? I don't recall anyone ever saying "BW needs to lock in mods, all this customization allowed with mods is too complicated!" No. Majority of people like to move mods around.
  

 

 

 

These are mostly things centered around gearing and conquest, but these are fairly substantial facets of the game and all of these changes were made when I never noticed anyone complaining about these things needing to be changed.

 

So whether or not I liked everything that author wrote about SWTOR, I do believe there were valid critical points made. It's up to the reader to decide if they see anything worthwhile, and whether or not the site this article came from is rubbish or not doesn't take away that one point he made in my opinion.

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

If someone reads one article on something and concludes it must be 100% true and doesn't cross-reference it with other information then they are ignorant either by choice, laziness, or stupidity.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Lhancelot

[SaveTheMonkeys]

/thread, seriously though very well spoken. This article is just another doom-and-gloom one, and I thought the forums would be support of it we things here are usually pretty grim... great to see people calling this, excuse the term, BS out on its logic. And as Dasty mentioned let's not even entertain his idea of flashpoint/story progression.

 

Exactly my thoughts. I sometimes get morbid enjoyment out of reading the hyperbole and doom on these forums (hey, I'm not proud of it ), so that's what I expected when I clicked on the thread - I am pleasantly surprised!

[Lhancelot]

From the article:

 

"So what’s the matter? Why is the game struggling? If it’s got so much to recommend it, why is it still flailing in hopes of a resuscitation?"

 

Isn't this pretty much why a petition was created? To revitalize, resuscitate the game?

 

I think sometimes you guys get blinded by your own passion and only read or see what you want from critical material about your favorite game.

 

 

Also from the article:

 

"The game isn’t dead. I think it has some chance to recoup some players and at least bring its storytelling to a satisfying conclusion. But it’s never captured that flare that it had in the beginning, and the whole thing goes down as a missed opportunity. Not just because of where it took inspiration, but because it never seemed to know what it actually had."

 

He never says the game is dead. I agree wholeheartedly with this guy, the game stands on what was developed at launch, and nothing followed after that had near the magic or quality it began with and the whole thing will go down as a gigantic missed opportunity.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

From the article:

 

"So what’s the matter? Why is the game struggling? If it’s got so much to recommend it, why is it still flailing in hopes of a resuscitation?"

 

Isn't this pretty much why a petition was created? To revitalize, resuscitate the game?

 

I think sometimes you guys get blinded by your own passion and only read or see what you want from critical material about your favorite game.

 

 

Also from the article:

 

"The game isn’t dead. I think it has some chance to recoup some players and at least bring its storytelling to a satisfying conclusion. But it’s never captured that flare that it had in the beginning, and the whole thing goes down as a missed opportunity. Not just because of where it took inspiration, but because it never seemed to know what it actually had."

 

He never says the game is dead. I agree wholeheartedly with this guy, the game stands on what was developed at launch, and nothing followed after that had near the magic or quality it began with and the whole thing will go down as a gigantic missed opportunity.

 

The game is struggling because it doesn't have the development resources that it needs - its as simple as that. It had a troubled development and so got off on the wrong foot. Most of the article is a list of "they should have..." or "they shouldn't have..." and while I may agree with some of those points, it omits the fact that a) development post-launch was done on a limited budget, and b) game development is hard - compelling game mechanics, story and design don't just happen. Its a valid point that swtor combat mechanics (and other things) were lifted from WoW, but maybe that was because they worked, and the alternatives didn't. Every game is built on a graveyard of ideas - bad ones, but also good ones that didn't work in practice.

[Lhancelot]

The game is struggling because it doesn't have the development resources that it needs - its as simple as that. It had a troubled development and so got off on the wrong foot. Most of the article is a list of "they should have..." or "they shouldn't have..." and while I may agree with some of those points, it omits the fact that a) development post-launch was done on a limited budget, and b) game development is hard - compelling game mechanics, story and design don't just happen. Its a valid point that swtor combat mechanics (and other things) were lifted from WoW, but maybe that was because they worked, and the alternatives didn't. Every game is built on a graveyard of ideas - bad ones, but also good ones that didn't work in practice.

 

The game didn't just start to struggle, it's been struggling since launch and only gotten worse over time. I also believe it to be a bit more complicated than SWTOR has struggled only because of a lack of funding.

 

BW made the decisions to use the limited resources as they seen fit, and this is something I brought up earlier. They fix things that aren't broken. They redo gearing systems. They recreate conquest from the ground up. They do all kinds of things that quite frankly make no sense, particularly if they are running on a limited amount of resources.

 

Anyway, my point of this article is there are sensible points made and instead of admitting that, people just chalk the entire article up as garbage. Which is fine, but I can see where I agree with some of the points the author made.

 

The fact that none of us are behind the scenes (including the author of the article) means much of what we discuss is theorycraft. I only put stock into one poster when it comes to explanations behind many of the shortcomings of SWTOR and that's Jeff Nyman who works in the field of testing games.

 

Mr. Nyman has shared his perspective on the dynamic relationship between EA and BW, and what I get from that is EA isn't nearly as to blame for the woes of SWTOR as BW fans want to believe.

 

I personally feel BW has squandered resources by not listening to feedback from the players, by not developing content that has gameplay longevity, and by not listening to feedback from the players. Oh, did I already say that?

 

Communication has almost always been a big problem with BW on this game. Imo had they understood what really needed improved upon in the game which could be gathered by feedback from their players much of their limited resources and funding could have been used much more wisely than it has been.

[SaveTheMonkeys]

The game didn't just start to struggle, it's been struggling since launch and only gotten worse over time. I also believe it to be a bit more complicated than SWTOR has struggled only because of a lack of funding.

 

BW made the decisions to use the limited resources as they seen fit, and this is something I brought up earlier. They fix things that aren't broken. They redo gearing systems. They recreate conquest from the ground up. They do all kinds of things that quite frankly make no sense, particularly if they are running on a limited amount of resources.

...

I personally feel BW has squandered resources by not listening to feedback from the players, by not developing content that has gameplay longevity, and by not listening to feedback from the players. Oh, did I already say that?

 

Communication has almost always been a big problem with BW on this game. Imo had they understood what really needed improved upon in the game which could be gathered by feedback from their players much of their limited resources and funding could have been used much more wisely than it has been.

 

I really like the new conquest system.

But I get your point, and I always support the addition of nuance to any debate. While I agree that they could communicate more, player feedback can be troublesome. I believe that they listen but don't necessarily act, perhaps because it would push them in a dozen different directions.

[Ylliarus]

These kinds of articles hurt this game a lot because a player willing to try TOR out might get the wrong impression that his game a ghost town waiting to be shut down....

 

Exactly the same goes for the doomsayers or those who are insistent on spreading why they quit SWTOR or cancelled their subscription. Their messages won't change anything and scare away potential new players who might have otherwise been interested in trying the game out. The doomsayers/quitters/unsubbers are for some reason compelled to share their opinion - even though it's not asked for - but don't realise the damage their statements do to the game. If someone says "SWTOR is dead/dying" they're in fact one of its killers.

 

But apparently their compulsive need to share their opinion of why SWTOR is dead/dying outweighs the game's need of attracting new players

Edited February 10, 2019 by Ylliarus

[Lhancelot]

Exactly the same goes for the doomsayers or those who are insistent on spreading why they quit SWTOR or cancelled their subscription. Their messages won't change anything and scare away potential new players who might have otherwise been interested in trying the game out. The doomsayers/quitters/unsubbers are for some reason compelled to share their opinion - even though it's not asked for - but don't realise the damage their statements do to the game. If someone says "SWTOR is dead/dying" they're in fact one of its killers.

 

But apparently their compulsive need to share their opinion of why SWTOR is dead/dying outweighs the game's need of attracting new players

 

Most people can differentiate honest opinions or reviews of a game versus an angry rant of "THE GAME IS DYING IT SUCKS" kind of posts. People ought to do some research on the game before letting a ranting post they read decide for them if the game is worth playing or not.

 

Also, I just want to point out that many people that are considered "doomsayers" are some of the most passionate players, and many of them didn't start out as malcontents bent on hating the game. In fact, most people that are critical of SWTOR don't hate the game at all, they just are angry and expect better.

 

Imo, unfortunately a lot of the resentment by the playerbase on this game is quite understandable under the circumstances.

 

Considering how many choices BW has made which have made so many people disappointed, it's no wonder so many are quite critical of how the game has been managed and the state the game is in now.

 

Critical feedback is quite important as it sets goals to achieve, it empowers change for the better. That's all I am trying to say. Feedback is necessary, even when it's not complimentary.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Lhancelot

[ALaggyGrunt]

I understand being a huge Star Wars fan, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you would play an online multiplayer game if you're super shy about grouping.

 

And it's not just you, by the way. There's a lot of folks that play SWTOR that really seem to have an aversion towards grouping.

 

The last single-player Star Wars game for PC came out in 2010 (The Force Unleashed II). In that year (and a couple of years after that), that answer to that question would have been "because they got lost and confused." Now, it's the result of a complete lack of even slightly recent alternatives.

[Noerra]

Critical feedback is quite important as it sets goals to achieve, it empowers change for the better. That's all I am trying to say. Feedback is necessary, even when it's not complimentary.

 

Critical feedback is fine and games need that to thrive and develope. My problem with this article was that it was not written in the way that would say "hey imporve this and this" but more in the attitude of "you failed because you didn't do this and this". Even naming it "pre-mortem" tells it has no interest of making the game better.

 

Granny is walking slower and stopped going to bowling but it is still not good idea to write pre-mortem for granny telling that while granny is not quite dead, this is only matter of time. It is just plain rude and serves no other purpose than writer being able to tell "ahh i predicted this here" when it actually happens. Which is something that happens sooner or later to every granny and is no news to anyone.

[Ardrossan]

Most people can differentiate honest opinions or reviews of a game versus an angry rant of "THE GAME IS DYING IT SUCKS" kind of posts. People ought to do some research on the game before letting a ranting post they read decide for them if the game is worth playing or not.

 

Also, I just want to point out that many people that are considered "doomsayers" are some of the most passionate players, and many of them didn't start out as malcontents bent on hating the game. In fact, most people that are critical of SWTOR don't hate the game at all, they just are angry and expect better.

 

I agree with the latter paragraph; however, I have also seen many supposedly reasonable critics on this forum heap praise onto the 'THE GAME IS DYING IT SUCKS' folks, which to me, undermines the former's credibility as reasonable voices. I don't think most people CAN actually differentiate between the two. The game's ardent defenders will attack anyone speaking out against it [and there's a sub-category that are not so much defending as conservatively denouncing any suggestions on how BW can do better], and the critics, otoh, will trip over themselves rushing to congratulate every illiterate SWG fanboy bemoaning how this game killed their obsession.

[Pallais]

For an opinion piece, this one certainly did its editorial job in getting people talking about it and the game. ^_^

 

While I have been very critical about BW's choices in the past, I've come to realize that taking these chances and making changes is good for the long term health of the game. Yes, it is painful when the change flops, but without those attempts the game would be stale and static. People really would have a reason to say the game was dying. It is simply the nature of an MMO to change over time if it wants to grow and evolve.

 

I am happy to see folks here be vocal about the fact MMOs are a collection of minority gaming areas. It takes time for BW to work around to giving each minority some new content. Yes, even leveling and story is a minority. This isn't bad, it just requires us to be patient while new content is delivered. If you don't want to play a specific piece of content, cool. Just remember to celebrate others playing the content you don't because that benefits the game as a whole and lets BW get to your slice of content a bit sooner.

[FlameYOL]

Critical feedback is fine and games need that to thrive and develope. My problem with this article was that it was not written in the way that would say "hey imporve this and this" but more in the attitude of "you failed because you didn't do this and this". Even naming it "pre-mortem" tells it has no interest of making the game better.

 

Granny is walking slower and stopped going to bowling but it is still not good idea to write pre-mortem for granny telling that while granny is not quite dead, this is only matter of time. It is just plain rude and serves no other purpose than writer being able to tell "ahh i predicted this here" when it actually happens. Which is something that happens sooner or later to every granny and is no news to anyone.

 

Exactly, I have no problem with critical feedback. Lord knows Bioware needs it sometimes, but this is just the typical clickbait article, and I absolutely hate clickbait.

[TheAresian]

I don't see why everybody is so undone about this article. It's an editorial. An opinion piece. People are acting like it's the Warren Commission Report. Here's my theory on what happened:

 

BioWare spent hundreds of millions of dollars (estimated cost of production 200-300 Million + 100M advertising) making an awesome BioWare game that wanted to be the new champ of MMOs. Way back when, back on launch day, it was an awesome BioWare game. But it wasn't a good MMO. The content locusts descended upon it, feasted and when they got to end game, they didn't find nearly enough to keep them full. So they left. They left and took their money and EA/BioWare dreams of killing WoW went with them. Since then, the game has gradually gotten smaller with less and less invested in it to make it as profitable as possible before EA has to either renegotiate rights with Disney or pull the plug. How much smaller has the game gotten? Well, here's a link to the server list from way back when:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=254

 

Maybe pre-mortem is premature, but BioWare switching so many of the SWTOR development team over to Anthem has shown this game is no longer a priority. Keep your expectations low to avoid disappointment and enjoy what's available.

[DavidAtkinson]

I don't see why everybody is so undone about this article. It's an editorial. An opinion piece. People are acting like it's the Warren Commission Report. Here's my theory on what happened:

 

BioWare spent hundreds of millions of dollars (estimated cost of production 200-300 Million + 100M advertising) making an awesome BioWare game that wanted to be the new champ of MMOs. Way back when, back on launch day, it was an awesome BioWare game. But it wasn't a good MMO. The content locusts descended upon it, feasted and when they got to end game, they didn't find nearly enough to keep them full. So they left. They left and took their money and EA/BioWare dreams of killing WoW went with them. Since then, the game has gradually gotten smaller with less and less invested in it to make it as profitable as possible before EA has to either renegotiate rights with Disney or pull the plug. How much smaller has the game gotten? Well, here's a link to the server list from way back when:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=254

 

Maybe pre-mortem is premature, but BioWare switching so many of the SWTOR development team over to Anthem has shown this game is no longer a priority. Keep your expectations low to avoid disappointment and enjoy what's available.

 

holy... :eek:

 

All of those were full ? I seriously doubt it.. man that's way too many servers I think not even half otf those had any healthy population.

[Jozandra]

I understand being a huge Star Wars fan, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you would play an online multiplayer game if you're super shy about grouping.

 

And it's not just you, by the way. There's a lot of folks that play SWTOR that really seem to have an aversion towards grouping.

 

Story content. And from time to time my niece has also played this game, so nice bonding moments.

[Jozandra]

There is more than enough single player content to keep some solo players occupied, and to be fair SWTOR actively leaned into that with KOTFE / KOTET which were almost exclusively single-player experiences (much to the dismay of players looking for more group-oriented content).

 

Right? I may be in the minority (I really don't care if I am) but I love being able to replay those chapters on the same character.

 

To those of you who don't understand the draw, please remember that SWtOR was based on KotOR 1 & 2, which are single player games. Nice having some continuity from that.

[Jozandra]

Well, I'm that way too, and only one thing will happen if it goes that way. I leave for good. I won't group to experience story...because you can't experience the story that way. There will always be some tud that screams "SPACEBAR!!!!@!

 

Oh, I hate that even in flashpoints that I have fully been through and watched every cutscene. I'm not against using SB, but demanding it without asking if everyone has been through it is just rude.

[Jozandra]

These kinds of articles hurt this game a lot because a player willing to try TOR out might get the wrong impression that his game a ghost town waiting to be shut down....

 

True. Maybe I'm wrong, but every time I see someone posting doom & gloom "the game is dead" comments, I cannot help but think the person is probably employed by a gaming competitor.

 

There is a lot of content that I have not even gotten to yet. Been actively playing since I bought this laptop for the last two years, and am only now one character away from becoming a Legendary player. Okay, so I am easily distracted and am most definitely an alt'aholic, but it lets me play this game the way I want to without feeling like I have to group with others all the time.

 

As far as I am concerned the game is not dead.

[TheAresian]

holy... :eek:

 

All of those were full ? I seriously doubt it.. man that's way too many servers I think not even half otf those had any healthy population.

 

When the game launched, it was packed. Queues were common. It didn't last long though. The game launched Dec 2011 and had gone free to play in less than a year. Hence, the Legend of the TORtanic.

Edited February 11, 2019 by TheAresian

[DavidAtkinson]

When the game launched, it was packed. Queues were common. It didn't last long though. The game launched Dec 2011 and had gone free to play in less than a year. Hence, the Legend of the TORtanic.

 

That was a massive collapse then....

 

EA was too overconfident with this IP... exactly like Disney is. Both of them have a similar mindset. For them Star Wars is just $$$ from the fans. They don't give a **** about LORE... tradition.. fans etc.

 

If this game had any other company than EA behind it it might have had a better fate. I'm sure of it.

 

Also, at launch this game was massive and continuing to be massive after launch to keep the population on those dozens of servers would have required a considerable financial effort for further development. Something that EA... was totally unwilling to do. NO way in hell... and this practice is so much like them. We might see the same thing happen with Anthem too.

[TheAresian]

That was a massive collapse then....

 

EA was too overconfident with this IP... exactly like Disney is. Both of them have a similar mindset. For them Star Wars is just $$$ from the fans. They don't give a **** about LORE... tradition.. fans etc.

 

If this game had any other company than EA behind it it might have had a better fate. I'm sure of it.

 

Also, at launch this game was massive and continuing to be massive after launch to keep the population on those dozens of servers would have required a considerable financial effort for further development. Something that EA... was totally unwilling to do. NO way in hell... and this practice is so much like them. We might see the same thing happen with Anthem too.

 

Lack of significant end game at launch hurt this game tremendously. Even at the height of its power, the all time MMO Heavyweight Champ couldn't keep up with the demands of players asking for more new end game content. Lore and tradition have a tough time overcoming that. It's amazing to think that at one point SWTOR had 200 developers working on the game and now players get a new flashpoint and a few cuts scenes every few months.

 

As for blaming EA, they spent between $200 and $300 million total so it's not as though they made the game on a shoestring budget. Whatever numbers they were seeing convinced them it wasn't worth massive long term investment. A shame because the original is so good. 7 years later and the first three chapters still hold up.

[DavidAtkinson]

Lack of significant end game at launch hurt this game tremendously. Even at the height of its power, the all time MMO Heavyweight Champ couldn't keep up with the demands of players asking for more new end game content. Lore and tradition have a tough time overcoming that. It's amazing to think that at one point SWTOR had 200 developers working on the game and now players get a new flashpoint and a few cuts scenes every few months.

 

As for blaming EA, they spent between $200 and $300 million total so it's not as though they made the game on a shoestring budget. Whatever numbers they were seeing convinced them it wasn't worth massive long term investment. A shame because the original is so good. 7 years later and the first three chapters still hold up.

 

We will never know. I wasn't around then....

 

There was a massive demand for endgame content and they were simply unwilling to invest more after that initial 200 million dollar boom. I still remember those articles wotj "ea louse" that was sayin' that EA/Bioware are crazy... they are making a game with 8 class individual class stories and every single dialogue line is voiced and so on... and that the costs are up to a few hundred millions.

 

Back in the day I was hating this game because KOTOR 3 was killed off.. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that I will play TOR, but In the end I gave in because there was no other star wars game available and there isn't any now.

 

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=296186

 

Something like this.

 

Despite it all. I love the game... and It's likely I will be here till the end.

Edited February 11, 2019 by DavidAtkinson

[TheAresian]

I come and go as the mood strikes me. My love for the beginning of the game makes my.... irritation...... with the newer content a bit more than it perhaps should be. So I take breaks and then I come back and do it all over again.

 

Look at the numbers mentioned in thread link . 1.7 million in Feb 2012. F2P in Nov 2012. One word: Oof.