Sometimes the light/dark choices don't make sense.

[IoNonSoEVero]

The Mother Machine in the SI vanilla story vs. Scorpio in ET I think is a case of different authors with different standards.

 

The Sith Inquisitor (and Warrior and Agent) vanilla story generally applied a “best interests of the Empire” or “best of bad options” as light choices where both choices would be darkside by Jedi, Trooper and probably Smuggler standards.

 

A prime example would be the mission with the escaped slaves where the lightside option is to kill them all with a poison that is painless while the dark option is to use the poison the Sith Lord wants which will cause immense pain before finally killing them.

 

At that point in the class stories (since planet = point in time in vanilla even if you come back and do it when your class story is over) you are either an apprentice, a lower tier intelligence agent or some no-name bounty hunter. You simply do not have the level of influence you’d need to be able to actually save the slaves at that point. The most merciful thing you can do for them is take the mission to ensure they die painlessly instead of having some psychopath inflict the painful death option on them.

 

Thus, for that mission, kill them painlessly is the light-side option even though it would be absolutely a dark option for any of the Pubside characters. The Impside setting is so messed up that ‘least bad’ is the most good that is possible.

 

Once we get to the “one story for all” point (i.e. Shadow of Revan on) though not only were the writers different, but the light/dark choices defaulted to more generic good/evil ones because they had to cover the range from Pubside light to Impside dark.

 

That said, in the case of the Mother Machine one thing to remember is that she didn’t just want to be free to create new life forms. She also intended to genocide the entire Rakata species, even though the vast majority of those still alive had nothing to do with imprisoning her. Heck, those on Rakata Prime were probably close to a thousand generations removed from anyone who actually made the decision to imprison her, but the Mother Machine wanted to wipe them out anyway. That could definitely be seen as a reason that releasing her is dark.

 

Scorpio by contrast wants to merge with Iokath and promises to never bother anyone else in the galaxy again. You choosing to trust Scorpio to keep her word might seem nieve in the moment, but is the lightside thing to do (and Scorpio does keep her word if you take that option).

 

That 'poison the slaves' quest is one I always refuse flat out, along with the one that infects the Republic hospital with rakghouls.

 

I didn't take it as the Mother Machine wanting to commit genocide; I took it as her wanting to destroy those specifically enslaving her- which was reasonable in my mind.

 

And as for SCORPIO, yes, she says she will never bother anyone again, but knowing how many times she lied and manipulated everyone, and what Iokath could do, IMHO it was still completely foolish and naive to take her at her word and let her go.

[Nefla]

That said, in the case of the Mother Machine one thing to remember is that she didn’t just want to be free to create new life forms. She also intended to genocide the entire Rakata species, even though the vast majority of those still alive had nothing to do with imprisoning her. Heck, those on Rakata Prime were probably close to a thousand generations removed from anyone who actually made the decision to imprison her, but the Mother Machine wanted to wipe them out anyway. That could definitely be seen as a reason that releasing her is dark.

 

Scorpio by contrast wants to merge with Iokath and promises to never bother anyone else in the galaxy again. You choosing to trust Scorpio to keep her word might seem nieve in the moment, but is the lightside thing to do (and Scorpio does keep her word if you take that option).

Again, your character does not know about the mother machine's intentions when you are given the choice to free her or keep her and any innocent beings she produces enslaved and experimented on in hopes of one day becoming strong enough to conquer and enslave the galaxy again. I hold that freeing her should not be a darkside option and keeping her enslaved should not be a light side option. It's about your character's intention and purity when they make their decisions, not about the eventual often unforseen consequences. If we're going strictly by eventual consequences and greater good then it should be LS to kill almost every sith, high ranking imperial officer, gangster, or pirate you encounter since they're capable of doing a lot of damage and imprisoning them still leaves the door open for them to escape.

[Gokkus]

Dark side and Light side are not the same as right and wrong. They are different philosophy's.

It is the same with moral philosophy, who is to say what is right and wrong? The reason so many people have studied the subject is because there is no clear cut answer.

 

As I understand it, Light side is live and let live, no matter the context, no matter the price. Killing someone cannot be a Light side action.

 

If I am wrong and there is a Light side way to kill someone in game, let me know.

[Katpoohtoo]

Dark side and Light side are not the same as right and wrong. They are different philosophy's.

It is the same with moral philosophy, who is to say what is right and wrong? The reason so many people have studied the subject is because there is no clear cut answer.

 

As I understand it, Light side is live and let live, no matter the context, no matter the price. Killing someone cannot be a Light side action.

 

If I am wrong and there is a Light side way to kill someone in game, let me know.

 

Assuming you're speaking beyond the game, God is to say what's right and wrong. Also, when you let an unrepentant murderer go free, you are killing whomever the murderer kills. You're complicit. The killer sure as heck isn't "live and let live".

[Nefla]

Dark side and Light side are not the same as right and wrong. They are different philosophy's.

It is the same with moral philosophy, who is to say what is right and wrong? The reason so many people have studied the subject is because there is no clear cut answer.

 

As I understand it, Light side is live and let live, no matter the context, no matter the price. Killing someone cannot be a Light side action.

 

If I am wrong and there is a Light side way to kill someone in game, let me know.

In-game killing Paladius on Nar Shaddaa is the light side choice.

[KoranGarmonk]

I'm with you on this. The responses that claim that morality is dictated by social forces don't make a lot of sense to me. (Whether or not a killing is moral depends on whether or not it's government sanctioned? I don't think that's a position most people would consistently apply to history.)

 

On the other hand, there's the brutalization effect to consider, the psychological results of killing another human being aren't generally positive.

 

Our morality is rooted in our intuitions, and at the end of the day the writers are human beings whose decisions about which choices are considered light or dark are going to be inevitably rooted in their own subjective views. Sometimes those views are going to clash with others, including yours and mine. It can't be avoided.

 

I think the point about Col. Thorus is that you should be able to choose to put him in jail, that would be the best option here! And this one is the light one! You will not kill him, but also not leave him to kill more people! I don't know why don't put this option! Let him go is no light option!

[RameiArashi]

Dark side and Light side are not the same as right and wrong. They are different philosophy's.

It is the same with moral philosophy, who is to say what is right and wrong? The reason so many people have studied the subject is because there is no clear cut answer.

 

As I understand it, Light side is live and let live, no matter the context, no matter the price. Killing someone cannot be a Light side action.

 

If I am wrong and there is a Light side way to kill someone in game, let me know.

 

On the contrary there is a clear cut answer. but posting it would get me an angry email from moderator. We are not the source of morality. Morality is not an opinion.

[xordevoreaux]

Many times, the dark choice isn't evil as we understand it. It's just a juvenile jerk response.

 

Some times, the light choice isn't good as we understand it. It's just equivocation or relativism, or Machiavellian thinking, and no one knowing the man's history or philosophy would claim that to be good.

Edited August 23, 2020 by xordevoreaux

[Ardrossan]

A lot of the morality questions mentioned in the beginning of this thread, like shooting Thorus, are only confusing if you're a sociopath.

 

Yeah some of the DS/LS choices don't make a lot of sense to me. For example as a sith inquisitor on Belsavis, the mother machine tells you she was enslaved and her children taken away and used for slaves and asks you to free her. Your character knows how it feels to be enslaved and the mother machine has been nothing but kind and helpful to you.

 

It's a killer AI with weakly godlike powers, basically the nicer version of the World Razer. Freeing it seems like a bad idea. Admittedly, BW could have made it a bit more obvious, it's not like the DS NPCs in this game are all that subtle.

 

This isn't quite as complicated in the way it's being made out. Star Wars is a universe with moral objectivity. It "has an opinion" on right and wrong through the context of the Force. The Force in Legends generally cares very little for motive or excuses versus actions and consequences and judges actions on the personal instead of the global scale. Life, harmony, and temperance are affiliated with the Light and death, passion, and impulse with the Dark. Whether or not you personally agree with it, certain actions demonstrably and physically make the Dark Side of the Force stronger. Even if you aren't sensitive to the Force, it flows through and suffuses your being nonetheless and your actions have repercussions throughout it.

 

You should be prepared that from time to time what you are very convinced based on your real life upbringing, cultural influence, and free agency of thought as "good" will be "bad" to the Force. Considering how often the worst things in Star Wars often start with people utterly convinced they are doing the right thing, it actually gels quite well with the franchise's traditional storytelling. The most dangerous Sith are less often wallowing in depravity than they are operating on an internally consistent system of personal oughts (morals) that are twisted into something alien to most sane people.

 

This ^ is a perfect explanation for the morality system in the game [mostly]. For the most part, killing = bad, no matter who or what you're killing. Also greed = bad. Actions matter, not how you feel about said action.

 

not always, killing someone who is suffering a slow lingering death and can not be saved anyway, it would be a mercy to end their suffering with a quick death.

 

 

irl, maybe. In-game, killing someone to spare them suffering ALSO = DS, as we saw with Master Surro on Ziost.

 

 

/thread

[phalczen]

This ^ is a perfect explanation for the morality system in the game [mostly]. For the most part, killing = bad, no matter who or what you're killing. Also greed = bad. Actions matter, not how you feel about said action.

 

But that's not exactly true. You don't have to go deep into the new Disney canon Lore either. The Force is more about balance, in some cases, the right kind of death. Yoda says that all life makes the Force grow, and specifically invokes plant life. Even in our game the planets teeming with the Force are vibrant plant filled ones, and the ones devoid of the Force, or overwhelmed by the Dark like Korriban, are not. No one would consider consumption (killing) of plant life by animals or sentients to be the Dark Side, yet the organism is killed. People killing bacteria making them sick isn't bad or against the Force. Death of individuals in natural disasters isn't against the Force either. Deaths that sustain the circle of life and the ecosystem are part of the balance that is sought by the Force. I think your explanation for the Force as a morality systems ignores those nuances.

[Ardrossan]

But that's not exactly true. You don't have to go deep into the new Disney canon Lore either. The Force is more about balance, in some cases, the right kind of death. Yoda says that all life makes the Force grow, and specifically invokes plant life. Even in our game the planets teeming with the Force are vibrant plant filled ones, and the ones devoid of the Force, or overwhelmed by the Dark like Korriban, are not. No one would consider consumption (killing) of plant life by animals or sentients to be the Dark Side, yet the organism is killed. People killing bacteria making them sick isn't bad or against the Force. Death of individuals in natural disasters isn't against the Force either. Deaths that sustain the circle of life and the ecosystem are part of the balance that is sought by the Force. I think your explanation for the Force as a morality systems ignores those nuances.

 

Umm...morality is dependent on consciousness. A landslide isn't DS. Gut bacteria isn't LS. Voreclaws aren't DS unless they've been manipulated by something like sith alchemy. [which requires consciousness]. I don't think that's particularly controversial or lacks nuance lol.

 

The "balance" argument never made any sense to me, and arguably is not SUPPOSED to make sense in-game. It certainly isn't how the Jedi view things, except insofar that they equate balance = LS. To move it into game logic, balance in this game means neutrality, and you basically only ever get called on it in three places: JC Act 3 Finale, SI Act 3 Finale and SW Act 1 Finale. It's worth noting that while Satele [in JC finale] thinks balance is a good thing, even though it means the char isn't LS, the other two (Marr and Jaesa) comment on it because they literally don't understand the PC's motivations.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Ardrossan

[phalczen]

Umm...morality is dependent on consciousness. A landslide isn't DS. Gut bacteria isn't LS. Voreclaws aren't DS unless they've been manipulated by something like sith alchemy. [which requires consciousness]. I don't think that's particularly controversial or lacks nuance lol.

You wrote:

For the most part, killing = bad, no matter who or what you're killing.

Whether I use antibiotics to kill bacteria giving me pneumonia, or an Ewok or Wookiee or Trandoshan hunting game, it is killing, but it isn't "bad", and it isn't Dark Sided.

Anyway, maybe what you meant to say was murder, which I think we can all agree is dark sided.

[Ardrossan]

You wrote:

 

Whether I use antibiotics to kill bacteria giving me pneumonia, or an Ewok or Wookiee or Trandoshan hunting game, it is killing, but it isn't "bad", and it isn't Dark Sided.

Anyway, maybe what you meant to say was murder, which I think we can all agree is dark sided.

 

Oh I see, you were being pedantic, not obtuse. Unsurprising, this is a star wars forum after all. Enjoy playing with yourself.