252/258 Gearing System not viable for Casual/PvP players

[Lhancelot]

I honestly am at a loss for any supporting logic -- really trying to restrain myself from thinking this is intentional attempt to sabotage the game (this of course makes no logical sense, but when totally illogical decisions are made continuously, it's hard to think otherwise).

 

I said this and think it to. Frankly it's just hard to find any logical explanation behind some of the changes they are planning to make. But we seen this movie before, too.

 

BTW nice to see you back Joonbeams, I haven't seen you on the forums in a long time! Where have you been?!

[kukumburr]

I share some of Phalczen's concerns about the goal of the system. Personally, I was an advocate of Bolster being 252.

 

If it does stay at 248 with Augments at 236 I think a reasonable compromise then would be to loosen the UC requirement a bit and increase the drop rate.

 

As others have pointed out, though, I don't see the complaint of PvPers for several inter-related reasons:

 

1) There is not a flood of BiS gear now in Warzones and there will be even less in 5.10 given the eye popping crafting requirements. I have yet to hear one counter-argument from the so-called and self-appointed Ambassadors of the PvP community who presume (incorrectly) to speak for everyone (note: ghost posting on alts on Reddit doesn't count).

 

2) The issue is one of parity. Right now it is reasonable to pretty EQUALLY (note: I did not say easily) get MWS regardless of casual PvE or PvP . In the case you have the event weekly of your preference, it would be higher: Again, for the record -- I said EQUALLY not EASILY.

 

a) for Pve-ers, you can complete the heroic weekly now in under an hour which is one MWS. Throw in UC's at just 1 purchse (per character) at 500, plus crate drops, plus alts and you'll be getting probably 4 to 5 MWS / week.

 

b) for PvP-ers, let's assume you don't do the PvE weekly and just PvP. The UCs are intentionally designed to drop more frequently given this route. Frankly, it will take someone like Way of the Warrior, who only plays one character last I heard to gear up because of increasing costs and weekly cap (still unknown). For someone like you know who, who has dozens of alts, it will be much faster and synergistic (I assume I don't have to do the math, but briefly, 4 characters at 500 UCs a week vs. 1 character at 3000 or so -- pretty straightforward).

 

To the extent PvPers (ooh, am I an 'actual PvPer yet, where is my decoder ring! ) care about parity then this should alleviate some, but not all of their concerns.

 

Hence, I think the reasonable compromise is that if Bolster remains as stated, they should loosen the UC requirement / cost / drop rate or some combo. This does not address Tux's legit concern about how the current system does little to help the segment of players struggling in heroic Ops. I think they could loosen the overall MWS req a bit there too, but I'm still thinking on that one.

 

But bottom line: As of the current PTS, the crafting system is basically as horrific as being locked in a container and being forced to listen to the Kashyyk National Opera endlessly.

 

Dasty

 

1) First of all, at least personally I don't care that much about BiS in unranked. But it is very much needed in ranked and I feel like people keep ignoring this when they're telling PvPers to calm down. It's a completely different beast from 8v8 and burst damage and survivability are the most important things, and having a slight advantage in health and/or damage actually does pretty regularly make a difference.

 

Secondly, you're right that there are plenty of people who are not in BiS currently in unranked. But now with bolster being a larger gap from BiS and it taking even longer than currently to get BiS, the gear gap will be even worse than now. There will be lots of people in 230 with a scattering of 236-248 pieces, and there will be people in 258 (after the patch has been out for awhile anyways). There will be no incentive to waste UCs and shards on gear less than 258 anymore because of the steep prices for 258. And even if bolster was higher, it still doesn't bolster everything. Usually it's enough to do solid damage, but your survivability isn't as good.

 

2) I don't really disagree with this, I just argue for PvP because that's what I personally care about. Although I will say we don't know what all of the rotational weekly missions will be yet. I worry they'll be more heavily weighed towards PvE (similar to the daily activity for GC).

 

a) and b) MWS are per character, NOT per legacy (as of current PTS). If you have alts you can theoretically gear them all up at the same time if you want to. You cannot gear any single character up faster. Unless you only do the UC route, but you will have to pay the steeper cost to buy more than one a week. You cannot spend 500 on each character and then 'send' the MWS to one character. They are bound to that character when you purchase it.

[Sareeph]

And when it "used to be" this way, they had completely seperate pvp gear, with its own (much faster) grind from 204 to 208 (granted this wasnt really much of a grind).

 

I'm fine if they want the best gear to he dropped in NiM though I'd prefer it to be all NiM (but thats purely hypothetical as I don't have 8 people with the time to commit to NiM prog). We just (at this point philosophically) do not like the concept of PvEers jumping into PvP with an innate advantage (however small and insignificant it may seem).

 

I should think loyalty counts for something. I've been a paying subscriber in this gsme (with the exception of a couple days lapse between game time cards. Shouldn't my loyalty count for something? They have your unfortunate attitude of "well they're here spending money, thus they will continue to do so indefinitely."

 

This gear thing, provided its a pathetic an increase as I think, will not run me off by itself. Combine it with what I see potentially incoming with the guild v guild pvp and the potential for them to wreck conquest more, however, and it just might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Grind? What grind? People used to be able to store enough pvp coms to fully outfit 8 separate toons in BiS gear as soon as the new gear came out. They made it too easy on our PvP population. The cost for gear was cheap and so large cache's of com's were acquired just by playing. The dev's took that away and people reminisce about the "good ol days". That was much worse for the casual gamer than what has been laid before us now. Now it is throttled so the casual can garner gear at a rate somewhat closer to the regular player. I say casual meaning those that play 1 or 2 hours a day not 1 or 2 a week. Those are not even casual by gaming standards. Of course those sitting on 50K+ UC will still have an "Unfair" advantage.

 

You don't like PvEers coming in with an advantage? They are gamers who are spending more time playing than many others and know the best way to utilize their toons abilities. They also get only 1 piece per week per boss (as a group) and only if they complete the fight. There aren't many, if any, who will walk through the whole Op in one week. The same could be said that PvPers spending more time playing will have an advantage over those that don't. Shards will have a growing price per toon per week so having alts can be a boon now. The distinction you make sounds like a bias against a particular playstyle.

 

The people who spend hours and hours grinding NiM GotM will not be flocking to pvp in droves. As has been stated by many people in many different threads, the size of the community who can do NiM content let alone NiM GotM (the hardest content ever produced to date), is very small. Most competition will be with those who can't so people will have mostly an equal chance. For the ones that do, life isn't totally equal. I have seen people on alts with gear two levels below BiS, come in and annihilate many of the self-proclaimed gods in BiS. There will always be someone better and will always be someone who will claim the problem is not in themselves but in the set-up.

 

They said in the stream that guild/group challenges will have zero impact on Conquest and Ratings. That it is something that can be tracked for guilds not pug's, but has zero rewards.

[Andryah]

a) and b) MWS are per character, NOT per legacy (as of current PTS). If you have alts you can theoretically gear them all up at the same time if you want to. You cannot gear any single character up faster. Unless you only do the UC route, but you will have to pay the steeper cost to buy more than one a week. You cannot spend 500 on each character and then 'send' the MWS to one character. They are bound to that character when you purchase it.

 

Correct... however you are conveniently forgetting one of the most common practices by players over the years ---> using alts to acquire gear and then pull the mods in said gear, put them in a BoL item and then shipping it across their legacy.

 

Players can and will use alts to accumulate MWS and then in turn buy a gear item and do the pull and plop of mods into legacy gear and ship it around their legacy. Whereas crafted gear appears to be BoE.. but currently prohibitively expensive to craft and if it stays the way it is.. there won't be a crafted gear economy on the GTN ... only select closed economy between friends and guild mates.

 

it's always interesting to see what a player with a negative perspective on something will simply conveniently overlook all the clever work arounds that players do when a studio puts up a barrier (in this case... MWS being currently BoP). I guess because it does not support the negative narrative. The gear purchased from the vendor appears to be BoP as well.. but again.. mod muling with legacy gear IS a thing and has been for years.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[kukumburr]

Correct... however you are conveniently forgetting one of the most common practices by players over the years ---> using alts to acquire gear and then pull the mods in said gear, put them in a BoL item and then shipping it across their legacy.

 

Players can and will use alts to accumulate MWS and then in turn buy a gear item and do the pull and plop of mods into legacy gear and ship it around their legacy. Whereas crafted gear appears to be BoE.. but currently prohibitively expensive to craft and if it stays the way it is.. there won't be a crafted gear economy on the GTN ... only select closed economy between friends and guild mates.

 

it's always interesting to see what a player with a negative perspective on something will simply conveniently overlook all the clever work arounds that players do when a studio puts up a barrier (in this case... MWS being currently BoP). I guess because it does not support the negative narrative. The gear purchased from the vendor appears to be BoP as well.. but again.. mod muling with legacy gear IS a thing and has been for years.

 

Uh, the claim was "For someone like you know who, who has dozens of alts, it will be much faster and synergistic (I assume I don't have to do the math, but briefly, 4 characters at 500 UCs a week vs. 1 character at 3000 or so -- pretty straightforward)."

 

That's wrong. You still have to get 4 shards on a single character before you can move the gear piece around. 4 characters at 500 UCs a week is not faster than 1 character at 3500. The 4 characters at 500 UCs a week will get 4 pieces four weeks later. The 1 character at 3500 will have a piece that day.

 

Assuming 14 slots to fill at 4 MWS each for simplification, 4 characters spending 500 UCs a week will be 16 weeks for full set vs. 14 weeks if you buy 4 shards every week for 3500 UCs. The alts make it cheaper, not faster.

 

I'm just saying that the claim that it's faster is wrong.

 

But you bring up a good point here: what is the reason for making MWS character-bound and the gear BoP if you can transfer the mods anyways? Why on earth wouldn't they just at least make the gear BoL?

[Jdast]

Uh, the claim was "For someone like you know who, who has dozens of alts, it will be much faster and synergistic (I assume I don't have to do the math, but briefly, 4 characters at 500 UCs a week vs. 1 character at 3000 or so -- pretty straightforward)."

 

That's wrong. You still have to get 4 shards on a single character before you can move the gear piece around. 4 characters at 500 UCs a week is not faster than 1 character at 3500. The 4 characters at 500 UCs a week will get 4 pieces four weeks later. The 1 character at 3500 will have a piece that day.

 

Assuming 14 slots to fill at 4 MWS each for simplification, 4 characters spending 500 UCs a week will be 16 weeks for full set vs. 14 weeks if you buy 4 shards every week for 3500 UCs. The alts make it cheaper, not faster.

 

I'm just saying that the claim that it's faster is wrong.

 

But you bring up a good point here: what is the reason for making MWS character-bound and the gear BoP if you can transfer the mods anyways? Why on earth wouldn't they just at least make the gear BoL?

 

I guess I will have to do the math.

 

The throttling mechanism is Masterwork Shards (MWS). You are limited PER WEEK by how many MWS shard you can get PER CHARACTER. And, the costs per shard go up per UC and there is a cap per CHARACTER.

 

If Way of the Warrior, by way of example, is limited to get 4 MWS per week because he is capped no matter how many hours of PvP he plays...

 

Would you rather play one character and get 3 to four shards, assuming you spend the max. Or would you rather play 4 characters for the same amount of time and get 7 to eight. Over the period of a month, that means Way would have 16 shards roughly, whereas a player with 4 characters could feasibly get 28 to 32.

 

28 to 32 > 16. The next month it would 64 > 32. The next month 96 > 48 . The next month it would 124 > 64, etc.

 

For PvE, if I do the Ossus Weekly Mission on 4 separate characters. That 4 / week. And I purchase just 1 MWS at 500 each.

 

If I play 3 to four characters that is 7 to eight MWS per week (depending on crate drops.

 

28 to 32 > 8 (the 8 assuming one character play).

 

If you only play one character, no matter how you play it, you are throttled the same by MWS acquisition. If you spread the wealth a bit between characters, you will gear up much, much faster. It will be your call whether you gear up one main right away, or wait to get fancy weapons and spread it around.

 

Over time, and not really that much time, the throttling mechanism strongly favors alt play. So, no, my math is not wrong because Way of the Warrior will always be throttled the same way with one character. Hence, the term synergy.

 

Dasty

 

Edit: Corrected one minor math typo to make sure it was best possible scenario for non-alt play. Sorry, was in a rush since I got to head out!

Edited October 30, 2018 by Jdast

[Andryah]

I guess I will have to do the math.

 

The throttling mechanism is Masterwork Shards (MWS). You are limited PER WEEK by how many MWS shard you can get PER CHARACTER. And, the costs per shard go up per UC and there is a cap per CHARACTER.

 

If Way of the Warrior, by way of example, is limited to get 4 MWS per week because he is capped no matter how many hours of PvP he plays...

 

Would you rather play one character and get 3 to four shards, assuming you spend the max. Or would you rather play 4 characters for the same amount of time and get 7 to eight. Over the period of a month, that means Way would have 16 shards roughly, whereas a player with 4 characters could feasibly get 28 to 32.

 

28 to 32 > 16. The next month it would 62 > 32. The next month it would 124 > 64, etc.

 

For PvE, if I do the Ossus Weekly Mission on 4 separate characters. That 4 / week. And I purchase just 1 MWS at 500 each.

 

If I play 3 to four characters that is 7 to eight MWS per week (depending on crate drops.

 

28 to 32 > 8

 

If you only play one character, no matter how you play it, you are throttled the same by MWS acquisition. If you spread the wealth a bit between characters, you will gear up much, much faster. It will be your call whether you gear up one main right away, or wait to get fancy weapons and spread it around.

 

Over time, and not really that much time, the throttling mechanism strongly favors alt play. So, no, my math is not wrong because Way of the Warrior will always be throttled the same way with one character. Hence, the term synergy.

 

Dasty

 

Edit: Corrected one minor math typo to make sure it was best possible scenario for non-alt play. Sorry, was in a rush since I got to head out!

 

Accurate assessment and analysis. kukumburr is playing a narrative here.. and to assume players would do the obvious thing of using alts to accelerate the accumulation of MWS-2-gear-2-mods and then move the mods around with legacy gear simply does not fit his narrative. So he pretends it won't happen or if it does.. nobody can do it in week one. Well.. duh! It will take some time to even get the faction to gain access to the gear vendor... so this is a multi-week effort by a player (like every other BiS gear in one way or another).

 

I bet once this all goes live, kukumburr will be gaming accumulation MWS with alts too.. and will be feeding gear to his main initially through the same mechanics both you and I have already illustrated. But I honestly don't expect him to admit that.. because it kind of smashes his narrative flat like a pancake.

 

You know what else most players will do? ---> work multiple pathways to MWS with multiple alts as well.. NOT just one. In fact.. I bet even the PvPers who claim they only PvP and don't and won't do other content for additional pathways to MWS... will in fact do them anyway. They will keep it up for whatever number of weeks they need to in order to gear the characters they want to gear with the new BiS.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

But you bring up a good point here: what is the reason for making MWS character-bound and the gear BoP if you can transfer the mods anyways? Why on earth wouldn't they just at least make the gear BoL?

 

Why they make the gear BoP is obvious.. so that players cannot sell vendor purchased gear to other players. This is to limit the use of token currencies for profit. Token currencies are meant to provide a pathway to gear other then credits. The same applies for not making the gear BoL... they want to limit proliferation across a legacy... NOT prevent it.. just limit it to some degree... just like every other throttling mechanic in the game today.

 

Why MWS to begin with.. and have it as an intermediate step? Obviously because they have multiple different pathways to earn toward the gear... and a token currency is actually the best method to allow this and yet avoid direct profiteering by players in the player economy.

 

You can disagree with throttles, gates and other restrictions.. but they happen to be there for a purpose ---> to make earning the BiS gear for a character to actually be an effort... not a welfare program. This is pretty normal for all MMOs... and if anything... once again... this studio is providing more flexibility in earning BiS gear then most other MMOs. Games like WoW would force you to grind Raids endlessly for a chance to get a gear drop... and they have a similar grind mechanic for PvP as well. The common denominator in MMOs with BiS gear is .... it is intended to be a serious grind. In SWTOR though.. the focused player will have one or more characters fully geared in 258s within 4 weeks if they set their mind to it... and this does NOT include any crafted pieces.

 

The only true controversy here about this new gear set.. is WHY at this late stage in the life cycle of 5.x are they pushing out a new tier which frankly is a big effort for the actual improvement in terms of the power curve of the gear. A lot of players simply won't even see the need to chase the ~5% bump in stats the gear offers.. because they see a bad ROI.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[Khevar]

You can disagree with throttles, gates and other restrictions.. but they happen to be there for a purpose ---> to make earning the BiS gear for a character to actually be an effort... not a welfare program.

One comment on this point.

 

Gating gear behind difficulty results in effort.

Gating gear behind a lengthy list of activities results in effort.

But gating gear behind a throttle results in waiting, not effort.

 

Your comparison to a welfare program is inaccurate. Were the throttling eliminated, it would still require effort on the part of a player to earn the gear.

[KendraP]

Grind? What grind? People used to be able to store enough pvp coms to fully outfit 8 separate toons in BiS gear as soon as the new gear came out. They made it too easy on our PvP population. The cost for gear was cheap and so large cache's of com's were acquired just by playing. The dev's took that away and people reminisce about the "good ol days". That was much worse for the casual gamer than what has been laid before us now. Now it is throttled so the casual can garner gear at a rate somewhat closer to the regular player. I say casual meaning those that play 1 or 2 hours a day not 1 or 2 a week. Those are not even casual by gaming standards. Of course those sitting on 50K+ UC will still have an "Unfair" advantage.

 

First, I would be complaining no matter what because I think adding gear at thus point is a stupid and pointless waste of energy they could be better exerting elsewhere. They're supposedly soooo shorthanded... why waste those supposedly limited resources on futless gear grinds hardly anyone cares about?

 

I don't have 50k UC but they took the time to earn them, so how is that an unfair advantage? PvPers mostly don't care about gear provided its a level playing field. Gear is a customization amd optimization tool, not a progression like it is in PvE.

 

You don't like PvEers coming in with an advantage? They are gamers who are spending more time playing than many others and know the best way to utilize their toons abilities. They also get only 1 piece per week per boss (as a group) and only if they complete the fight. There aren't many, if any, who will walk through the whole Op in one week. The same could be said that PvPers spending more time playing will have an advantage over those that don't. Shards will have a growing price per toon per week so having alts can be a boon now. The distinction you make sounds like a bias against a particular playstyle.

 

With all due respect to the 1% overlords who still bother with NiM - my not doing NiM has nothing to do with how good or bad I am at my class or mechanics. Further, the PvP and PvE playstyles are fundamentally different - what about PvE tanking makes me a better PvP tank?

 

There was a time (before they pissed me off) where I was spending 4 hours a day practically every weekday and often more on the weekend devoted to running my guild and running stuff with my guild. There was a time when we could claim a raid team. That time has passed thanks to the abysmal decisions they have made. I spend time in swtor because its like an irritating itch you can't scratch with anything else.

 

I feel like as a PvPer, yes I should have easier access to the best PvP gear easier than a PvEer. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept. Other than the fact, of course, that they made the gear the same DESPITE the innante philosophical differences in the communities.

 

The people who spend hours and hours grinding NiM GotM will not be flocking to pvp in droves. As has been stated by many people in many different threads, the size of the community who can do NiM content let alone NiM GotM (the hardest content ever produced to date), is very small. Most competition will be with those who can't so people will have mostly an equal chance. For the ones that do, life isn't totally equal. I have seen people on alts with gear two levels below BiS, come in and annihilate many of the self-proclaimed gods in BiS. There will always be someone better and will always be someone who will claim the problem is not in themselves but in the set-up.

I was just doing this myself yesterday - destroyed many people on my 230 left side geared hideaway alt. Doesn't change the underlying philosophical concept.

 

They said in the stream that guild/group challenges will have zero impact on Conquest and Ratings. That it is something that can be tracked for guilds not pug's, but has zero rewards.

 

Yes - zero impact on conquest and ratings and no reward. My concerns are with the future inplications. I have seen plenty of people whining about prenades in regs. My inner cynic sees this as a method to give guilds an avenue for group non-arena pvp that they can then use to eliminate groups queuing in regs.

 

This would be the end for me. It's a stretch of logic and gross extrapolation but if anything even slightly resembling this idea goes through my money is gone. I already have to deal with the worst idiots in the queue being on my team (like the 215 geared PT dps with a tank stim that did nothing except spam his flame aoe at mid the whole match or the sorc healer who stood in a corner doing nothing but casting DoTs or the other tank who kept running to the off node futlessly in hypergates. All 3 of these idiots were on a team with my 4 yesterday evening- we never got an 8th- and somehow I'm supposed to carry them).

 

The game frankly doesn't have the population left to support their good intentions. The obvious system of "match both teams so that they have the same average score" does not deal with outliers well - the best player(s) will always be matched with the worst is a moronic attempt to create an "average" team. The bottom 2% or whatever that actively screw other players through their stupidity or trolling should he equally likely on any team - not have me expected to carry them constantly.

[Andryah]

One comment on this point.

 

Gating gear behind difficulty results in effort.

Gating gear behind a lengthy list of activities results in effort.

But gating gear behind a throttle results in waiting, not effort.

 

Your comparison to a welfare program is inaccurate. Were the throttling eliminated, it would still require effort on the part of a player to earn the gear.

 

NOT waiting.. at all.. which is what some players want.. is also a form of MMO welfare system in MMOs. Only the realized return is different... time on the clock rather then effort.

 

Throttles are put in place in MMOs to do two primary things:

1) temper the rate at which players gobble content for tokens to buy gear. They do actually want players to pace themselves in game you know... AND move around and do more then just the specific content needed to get to the BiS gear. And in fact.. playing multiple pathways for the gear is likely the best route and a route a lot of players will actually take IF they choose to even chase this gear.

 

2) more importantly.. to give players with less time per day to actually play... a fair chance to keep up with the players that spend many hours per day playing the game. In other words.. a fairness scheme so that the player who plays content many hours per day cannot simply leap frog the more average player in terms of gear acquisition. This is particularly true in the PvP facet of the game where any possible gear advantage is taken to extremes by some players. The players with many hours per day to play of course will disagree with this throttle approach.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[Sareeph]

First, I would be complaining no matter what because I think adding gear at thus point is a stupid and pointless waste of energy they could be better exerting elsewhere. They're supposedly soooo shorthanded... why waste those supposedly limited resources on futless gear grinds hardly anyone cares about?

 

I don't have 50k UC but they took the time to earn them, so how is that an unfair advantage? PvPers mostly don't care about gear provided its a level playing field. Gear is a customization amd optimization tool, not a progression like it is in PvE.[/Quote]

 

Gear has always been a progression system in all aspects of the game. From leveling in vanilla (not this boosted xp stuff) to Fp's to Op's to yes, PvP. Even GSF has it. People started going on about taking gear out of the equation when 5.0 dropped. The 50k UC's was about how unfair people like to conflate things as being. Tying in with my statement about having massive amounts of old pvp coms.

 

With all due respect to the 1% overlords who still bother with NiM - my not doing NiM has nothing to do with how good or bad I am at my class or mechanics. Further, the PvP and PvE playstyles are fundamentally different - what about PvE tanking makes me a better PvP tank?

 

There was a time (before they pissed me off) where I was spending 4 hours a day practically every weekday and often more on the weekend devoted to running my guild and running stuff with my guild. There was a time when we could claim a raid team. That time has passed thanks to the abysmal decisions they have made. I spend time in swtor because its like an irritating itch you can't scratch with anything else. [/Quote]

 

The part about the NiM was the fact that they are so good and know their class through and through like a lot of PvP gods claim. It was not about you personally but that they are some of the best players in the game and likely to beat most people no matter what gear they are in.

 

I feel like as a PvPer, yes I should have easier access to the best PvP gear easier than a PvEer. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept. Other than the fact, of course, that they made the gear the same DESPITE the innante philosophical differences in the communities.[/Quote]

 

And I as both a PvP and PvE person, don't feel that a PvE person needs to have a harder time than a PvP. There is no PvP gear. They aren't likely to put it back in as many of the people who are not solely PvPers will quit pvp if they have to spend double the time just to multiple types. Why do you feel that a certain subsect of the game deserves things easier?

 

 

I was just doing this myself yesterday - destroyed many people on my 230 left side geared hideaway alt. Doesn't change the underlying philosophical concept.[/Quote]

 

What philosophy is that? That we need to segregate the game and drive it further down the hole? I've heard many say there are elitist NiM raiders and many say there are elitist PvPers. I am neither.

 

They said in the stream that guild/group challenges will have zero impact on Conquest and Ratings. That it is something that can be tracked for guilds not pug's, but has zero rewards.

 

Yes - zero impact on conquest and ratings and no reward. My concerns are with the future inplications. I have seen plenty of people whining about prenades in regs. My inner cynic sees this as a method to give guilds an avenue for group non-arena pvp that they can then use to eliminate groups queuing in regs.[/Quote]

 

To what end? They get friendly competition. People can already do something similar with the new SH on Rishi. I doubt that it will cause Regs to go extinct.

 

This would be the end for me. It's a stretch of logic and gross extrapolation but if anything even slightly resembling this idea goes through my money is gone. I already have to deal with the worst idiots in the queue being on my team (like the 215 geared PT dps with a tank stim that did nothing except spam his flame aoe at mid the whole match or the sorc healer who stood in a corner doing nothing but casting DoTs or the other tank who kept running to the off node futlessly in hypergates. All 3 of these idiots were on a team with my 4 yesterday evening- we never got an 8th- and somehow I'm supposed to carry them).

 

The game frankly doesn't have the population left to support their good intentions. The obvious system of "match both teams so that they have the same average score" does not deal with outliers well - the best player(s) will always be matched with the worst is a moronic attempt to create an "average" team. The bottom 2% or whatever that actively screw other players through their stupidity or trolling should he equally likely on any team - not have me expected to carry them constantly.

 

So, because someone isn't the best they should be excluded from playing the game? Trolling is one thing but to exclude someone because they don't meet someone's standards is a bit unrealistic. That would be almost the entire world as not everyone has the same idea of what is acceptable as others. Just remember, the opposing team has just as much chance to get the "Bottom 2%" and give you an easier time of it.

[kukumburr]

I guess I will have to do the math.

 

The throttling mechanism is Masterwork Shards (MWS). You are limited PER WEEK by how many MWS shard you can get PER CHARACTER. And, the costs per shard go up per UC and there is a cap per CHARACTER.

 

If Way of the Warrior, by way of example, is limited to get 4 MWS per week because he is capped no matter how many hours of PvP he plays...

 

Would you rather play one character and get 3 to four shards, assuming you spend the max. Or would you rather play 4 characters for the same amount of time and get 7 to eight. Over the period of a month, that means Way would have 16 shards roughly, whereas a player with 4 characters could feasibly get 28 to 32.

 

28 to 32 > 16. The next month it would 64 > 32. The next month it would 124 > 64, etc.

 

For PvE, if I do the Ossus Weekly Mission on 4 separate characters. That 4 / week. And I purchase just 1 MWS at 500 each.

 

If I play 3 to four characters that is 7 to eight MWS per week (depending on crate drops.

 

28 to 32 > 8 (the 8 assuming one character play).

 

If you only play one character, no matter how you play it, you are throttled the same by MWS acquisition. If you spread the wealth a bit between characters, you will gear up much, much faster. It will be your call whether you gear up one main right away, or wait to get fancy weapons and spread it around.

 

Over time, and not really that much time, the throttling mechanism strongly favors alt play. So, no, my math is not wrong because Way of the Warrior will always be throttled the same way with one character. Hence, the term synergy.

 

Dasty

 

Edit: Corrected one minor math typo to make sure it was best possible scenario for non-alt play. Sorry, was in a rush since I got to head out!

 

Maybe I don't understand something, because I'm not sure where you're getting 7 to 8 shards a week for 4 alts but only 3 to 4 for a single character. I was going off PvP only and was assuming you were only ever spending the 500UC on alts, but if you're saying for the same amount played, do you mean you're assuming they're spending the same UC budget each week? Because 4 alts only spending 500UC a week is 4 shards a week total. If you assume an equal budget (say 3500 since that's what it currently costs to outright buy 4 shards), then you get at least 5 shards a week (6 every other week) where as the single character just gets the 4. But then you are still limited by how often you can buy a piece on those characters.

 

In which case it would be 12 weeks to gear one character for the alts (maybe 11 if I didn't do it optimally, or if you just did one PvE weekly), vs 14 weeks for a single character. So yeah in that case it's faster. If you insisted on only ever spending 500UC it'd be 16 weeks.

 

But like I said maybe I'm misunderstanding because I don't know where you're getting 7-8 from if the single character is only getting 3-4 assuming we're talking about PvP only. If you're doing both PvE and 3500 UC budget then it'd be 9-10 shards a week for alts but 5 a week for single character but the time played wouldn't be the same (since for alts you have to run the weekly on each of them, single just once) but I thought you were talking about a PvP-only route.

 

Although I don't have any complaint about gearing being faster with alts, in fact I think that should be the case. I just don't understand why they don't simplify it and make the shards BoL.

[Khevar]

NOT waiting.. at all.. which is what some players want.. is also a form of MMO welfare system in MMOs. Only the realized return is different... time on the clock rather then effort.

So we're clear, my disagreement was with your comparison to "welfare". This is an inaccurate argument as it implies the player wants something for nothing.

 

For example, I could argue against operations lockouts. Once you defeat the last boss in an operation, all lockouts could be reset and you could run the operation again. This would allow me to gear faster, but I'd STILL have to do the "work".

 

Nothing is being handed out for free in this example.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Khevar

[phalczen]

[ QUOTE ]

They said in the stream that guild/group challenges will have zero impact on Conquest and Ratings. That it is something that can be tracked for guilds not pug's, but has zero rewards.[ /QUOTE ]

 

Yes - zero impact on conquest and ratings and no reward. My concerns are with the future inplications. I have seen plenty of people whining about prenades in regs. My inner cynic sees this as a method to give guilds an avenue for group non-arena pvp that they can then use to eliminate groups queuing in regs.

 

Well, I'm not sure that's completely correct. PvP Challenges will not reward UC, CXP, credits, Requisition, comms, whatever. But, they will impact the Guild Heraldry system which will tie into Flagship perks, all of which comes after 5.10. So, the existing rewards won't be attached to the challenges, for obvious exploitative reasons, but the challenges will not remain reward-less.

[Lhancelot]

They're supposedly soooo shorthanded... why waste those supposedly limited resources on futless gear grinds hardly anyone cares about?

 

It's the same pattern of past mistakes they have made... They spend time, energy, money on adding/removing things they should just leave alone. Don't fix **** if it aint broken.

 

 

PvPers mostly don't care about gear provided its a level playing field. Gear is a customization amd optimization tool, not a progression like it is in PvE.

 

It's just a really dumb idea. They are going to further marginalize the already shrinking population. Punishing alts, adding a heavier gear grind will serve no other purpose but to push more players off the game just as 5.0 did. I mean they just did this what, 2 years ago?

 

Even more so, they altered the conquest system to punish alts even more recently and I think we can all agree the change was viewed as subpar compared to the conquest system that was replaced by way more people than those that liked the change.

 

I get it when a company decides to not try to please everyone, but the problem here is many of their changes are met with a resounding displeasure or downright rage.

 

It's not just half or less than half who go bonkers though, and there lies the problem. When you piss off 60-70% or more of the players on a fairly pedestrian sized MMO it's crushing to the game.

[Sareeph]

Well, I'm not sure that's completely correct. PvP Challenges will not reward UC, CXP, credits, Requisition, comms, whatever. But, they will impact the Guild Heraldry system which will tie into Flagship perks, all of which comes after 5.10. So, the existing rewards won't be attached to the challenges, for obvious exploitative reasons, but the challenges will not remain reward-less.

 

They haven't really said much about Heraldry other than it won't be in 5.10 (38:30 mark of the stream). I would imagine it's some form of artwork (heraldry) that can be associated with your guild name much like what they have in WoW. The only thing they said about the challenges was that you could track them as a guild and place the results on your Landing Page. The Landing page is an "about your guild" message board similar to your guild message board but people outside your guild will be able to see it. It will have no game-play benefit. The perks are gained by meeting guild conquest targets. Challenging a guild to a pvp match won't affect conquest in any way. At least that is what they said. If you have seen anything that states challenges will have some type of heraldry reward, I would love to see it.

[Totemdancer]

thats the same logic as asking for a solo-OP mode.

lets just give all players 7 god-droids to run OPs by themselfs, and while we are at it, remove all mechanics, why bother with them.

 

a f*** it, remove the bosses as well. since you already managed to enter the area: here's your loot crate with full BiS gear!

 

its literaly discriminating against solo players that they have to slowly grind CXP instead of running OPs to get the 236/242 shells.

 

is this the matrix? am i missing something? whats up with some peoples attitude nowadays to demand everything for free instead of actualy playing the game and taking the challenges??!

 

if you dont wanna play the game anymore, just stop it. move on, try to find a better game that fits your expectations, thats fine.

 

but no, you stay here, keep playing, cry for changes everytime a patch is released, saying thats it now, you would leave, and than go on and still play to repeat the process all along. allthough you spend more time complaining about how bad every dicision of BW was, than actualy playing the game, ruining the game for other people.

 

someone mentioned addiction.....now THATS what I call addiction.

 

I was suggesting it for ops. Honestly, I don’t really care. I wouldn’t do them even if they were solo.

My point was, how does this affect the group players if they were to make it solo for people who want that?

Does it really matter so much at this point in the games life?

[Totemdancer]

Just to be clear, the above isn’t an accurate analysis of the gripe, though I concede I’m not qualified to speak for every single player who’s griping (neither of us is). The problem with THIS tier as compared to even the last one is that PvP isn’t a viable means to obtain the gear — its expressly not for PvP (yes this may change) and PvP will be a totally inefficient way to obtain it. Had PvP been made a viable option for attaining this gear, I assure you that at least I (and I venture to say many others) would not be complaining about it.

 

I have never had full 248s. I have never had BiS gear other than during the 4.x comms system. However because my playstyle (90% PvP) was always s viable means to getting BiS gear in PVP (and, at various points in time, something to strive for), I never demanded complete BiS bolster. This case is totally different.

 

Lastly, that said, i do want to point out that I and NUMEROUS others have complained repeatedly about the problem with the current system as a means for gearing in PvP. It has already created a disparity for more casual players and many much stronger players have pointed this out, and even left as a result. So this creates a FURTHER gap and that’s a legit gripe...

 

Well said and this is how I feel as well. And it’s been mine all along. The gear discrepancy in pvp is a thing and its too much for most casuals to over come. Its also extremely frustrating when you face someone of equal skill and they only win because of gear or lag. I can’t do anything about the lag, but Bioware could do something about the gearing,

 

The gripe for us and many others who predominantly pvp is the gear, not actually the Bolster and Bioware don’t seem to be listening to any of the feed back regarding the gearing for pvpers. So when people started making suggestions of having Bolster at 258 or even 252, it was because of this poorly designed gearing system.

 

Honestly, if they were to relax the gearing system and make it properly viable for pvp gearing, I wouldn’t care so much about the Bolster. I still think it’s too low as they have announced it, but it wouldn’t be quite as bad.

 

From experience when Bolster was 236 vs 248, I can say it was terrible before they increased it, even then it’s never been high enough and probably should have been 244 or 246.

236 Bolster to 248 is 12 lvls

242 Bolster to 248 is 6 lvls (and isn’t enough IMO)

248 Bolster to 258 is 10 lvls (and will be worse than the current Bolster lvls).

 

Either they make the gearing irrelevant in pvp or they make gearing viable for pvp. If they do neither it will destroy pvp.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Totemdancer

[phalczen]

They haven't really said much about Heraldry other than it won't be in 5.10 (38:30 mark of the stream). I would imagine it's some form of artwork (heraldry) that can be associated with your guild name much like what they have in WoW. The only thing they said about the challenges was that you could track them as a guild and place the results on your Landing Page. The Landing page is an "about your guild" message board similar to your guild message board but people outside your guild will be able to see it. It will have no game-play benefit. The perks are gained by meeting guild conquest targets. Challenging a guild to a pvp match won't affect conquest in any way. At least that is what they said. If you have seen anything that states challenges will have some type of heraldry reward, I would love to see it.

 

I was lumping all that guild v guild tracking and challenging under the general category of Guild Heraldry since I didn’t know what else to name it. I thought flagship perks were going to tie into that system but I may have mis-heard when Musco and Charles were talking about it early in the stream, before the tier 5 gear stuff. I know one of them mentioned Rishi fights could play into the guild v guild stuff too. Maybe I am conflating my hopes about the systems potential with what little info we actually know. In any case, I wouldn’t expect the system to remain reward-less or incentive-less forever, just that it won’t take the form of major rewards, e.g. UCs.

[Andryah]

So we're clear, my disagreement was with your comparison to "welfare". This is an inaccurate argument as it implies the player wants something for nothing.

 

Some players actually do appear to want the gear for almost no time or effort. This cannot be denied... just reading the various blow back comments about the new tier of gear.

 

I am not in any way saying you are one of the players wanting the gear for effectively free.... but it is a commonly expressed theme in the discussions surrounding the gear. No.. not absolutely free.. but they want it in a few days, for little actual effort so they can get back to their PvP almost immediately. For BiS gear in an MMO.. that is effectively asking for free gear. Some PvPers are even arguing that this is needed for PvPers, but not for PvEers. It's mind boggling, in the context of BiS gear in an MMO, to be honest.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Andryah

[KendraP]

Some players actually do appear to want the gear for almost no time or effort. This cannot be denied... just reading the various blow back comments about the new tier of gear.

 

I am not in any way saying you are one of the players wanting the gear for effectively free.... but it is a commonly expressed theme in the discussions surrounding the gear. No.. not absolutely free.. but they want it in a few days, for little actual effort so they can get back to their PvP almost immediately. For BiS gear in an MMO.. that is effectively asking for free gear. Some PvPers are even arguing that this is needed for PvPers, but not for PvEers. It's mind boggling, in the context of BiS gear in an MMO, to be honest.

 

What's mind boggling is that they keep adding gear/augments without increasing the level cap. Naturally PvPers want to PvP above anything else.

[Lhancelot]

What's mind boggling is that they keep adding gear/augments without increasing the level cap. Naturally PvPers want to PvP above anything else.

 

This is right. ^

 

A few vocal supporters of the incoming added gear grind are missing the point of PVPers. Either this is purposeful to try to create a false narrative to undervalue what the PVPers are expressing, or out of ignorance/lack of comprehension when reading why PVPers don't want gear grinds that take a month to just gear one toon.

 

The point isn't that the PVPer wants gears easily, the point is PVPers want to PVP on equal footing with other PVPers and not be underperforming or smashing through weaker foes. Contrary to what some like to think, most PVPers enjoy competitive games and having significant gear gaps will reduce the competition in the WZs.

 

When I say I want to gear up my toons faster this isn't saying "I want free gears." It means for me to be able to play my toons in PVP against other players I need the gears to reach maximum potential and I don't want to postpone my PVP activities for months or be gimped for months due to a severe gear grind.

 

The gear grind inhibits my activity in the game to do what I like most; that being PVPing on equal footing with other players in a competitive environment with 6,8,10, 15 different characters.

 

Why is this so hard to understand for some people.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Lhancelot

[Jdast]

Why is this so hard to understand for some people.

 

We have repeatedly explained to you both philosophically and, more importantly, mathematically how the new gearing system is tedious across the board. Ergo, parity. To the extent there is a lack of parity it is because the system as it exists now on the PTS benefits people like me who have lots of alts. The new system may suck, but it sucks a lot less for altoholics. Why? Math.

 

It's pointless trying to have a serious discussion with you and Totem on this issue when you won't even address the math. At least Kukum, Phal and a few others engage on facts, as opposed to hyperbolic threats to quit. As opposed to constantly screaming atop the towers that bolster should be BiS -- something you KNOW will not happen as has been stated by the devs in this game repeatedly (and in most other MMORPGs), you can try to work the system numerically. Using and engaging on the numbers would be a positive step forward for all involved; e.g., recommendations on loosening UC costs, acquisition numbers, Bolster 252, etc.

 

Fortunately, I am highly confident that the devs are reading the more serious posts in this thread.

 

As such, a number of us are scratching our heads wondering why it is so hard for you to understand?

 

Math > hyperbolic threats to quit and self-defining actual PvPers as only people who agree with you. Sorry (not sorry).

 

Dasty

Edited October 31, 2018 by Jdast

[Lhancelot]

 

Math > hyperbolic threats to quit and self-defining actual PvPers as only people who agree with you. Sorry (not sorry).

 

Dasty

 

If the gear gap is really insignificant and will have zero impact on PVP or the game in general, what exactly is the point of adding a gear grind for in the first place? Does the gear grind add a fulfilling empty carrot to work for in the game? Sort of contradicts itself, right?

 

I'd like to also point out that the only time there is no gear gap is when people are equally geared, and with a hard gear grind this will create gear gaps for all. If people want to play alts, then the gear gap is present even more so seeing alts will not be fully geared as obviously the gear grind will prevent more toons to be geared.

 

You can condescend me all you want, and create this cute analogy of math somehow proving that the gear grind will have no impact on PVP but from past experience on this game (6+ years of experience) I know one thing, and that is gear does matter in PVP.

 

It's ok to be sorry (not sorry) and I have made no threats, not sure what you mean by that.

 

Lhance