Some current information on 5.10 gearing from the PTS and why it’s unfair.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Sneaky and dumb because it will just make people stop playing.

 

It will have the same affect on pvpers as if you were made to play in a pvp instance to do your pve stuff. You would just leave the game.

 

Exactly. If I had to run that gauntlet to get gear I wouldn't bother, and I don't like the idea of having characters railroaded into a story segment I might not want to play.

[Totemdancer]

Something that some people are overlooking and being a little blasé about is the amount of time needed to play to stock pile Unassembled components.

 

I take my hate off to those who have a big stock pile because they’ve played a hell of a lot of pvp. But most people who are sitting on these big stock piles only have 1 or 2 characters they play or gear up.

 

A pvp match takes on average around 10mins. Now that doesn’t sound like a long time or that pvpers are putting in the hours the same as say a Raider grinding a MM OP. But all those 10mins add up.

 

Let’s consider a couple of things when discussing UCs as a reward in pvp and saying pvpers are casual and dont put the time in to gear.

A win = 20 UCs

A loss = 8 UCs

 

These are the amount of matches you would need to play and how many hours to get these amounts of UCs.

 

500 UCs

Win 25 = 250mins = 4.16 hours

Loss 62.5 = 620mins = 10.33 hours

 

1000 UCs

Win 50 = 500mins = 8.33 hours

Loss 125 = 1250mins = 20.83 hours

 

1500 UCs

Win 75 = 750mins = 12.5 hours

Loss 187.5 = 1875mins = 31.25 hours

 

2000 UCs

Win 100 = 1000mins = 16.66 hours

Loss 250 = 2500mins = 41.66 hours

 

3000 UCs

Win 150 = 1500mins = 25 hours

Loss 375 = 3750mins = 62.50 hours

 

5000 UCs

Win 250 = 2500mins = 41.66

Loss 625 = 6250mins = 104.16

 

40000 UCs

Win 2000 = 20000mins = 333.33 hours

Loss 5000 = 50000mins = 833.33 hours

 

50000 UCs

Win 2500 = 25000mins = 416.66 hours

Loss 6250 = 62500mins = 1041.66 hours

 

Now, not everyone wins every match and hopefully some people don’t lose every match. But I think you can see where I’m coming from.

 

I think anyone who has a stock pile of UCs has more than earnt them. They’ve probably invested more time playing their part of the game than the MM Raiders invest in Operations. They are anything but casual players. They are invested in pvp and that’s what they do.

 

You can also see how much time and effort is spent to get those UCs and why the crystal cost to UC ratio is too extreme. Especially with the ever increasing coast as you buy more crystals.

 

On average, it’s going to take 6-7 hours to get 500 UCs, 14-16 hours to get 1000 UCs, 20-22 hours to get 1500 UCs, 28-31 hours to get 2000 UCs, etc, etc.

Those times don’t include waiting for matches or doing other things in the game, like dailies. Which all pvpers will have to do to get the reputation to hero so they even have access to the vendor.

 

I dont think we know the exact rate of increase when you keep buying crystals with UCs, but let’s use a conservative approach to increase each buy, based on the 500. But it could just double each time too. ie, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000?

 

500 = 1 crystal

1000 = 2 crystals

1500 = 3 crystals

2000 = 4 crystals

 

Based on 500 UC increases, if you want to buy 4 crystals to get 1 piece, it will take 5000 UCs to buy them in one week and will take anywhere from 60-90 hours (depending on win/loss).

If the increase in cost is exponential, then those costs keep rising. Therefore, it will be impossible for someone to ledgitmately buy a full set if you have a 40-50k UCs in the first week or even the second because you need hero standing.

If those people are smart they may try buying with Alts and moving with legacy gear or they’ll have to wait if they only play a couple of Alts.

 

Either way, the best estimate for someone with 40k UCs is going to be 1-2 months to gear if just using UCs.

For the rest of us who have no UCs or very little, like me, it will take a hell of a lot longer to full gear ONE ALT. best guess for me will be 6-8 months because I no longer play 40 hours a week. What really stings is I don’t just play one ALT, I try to play one of every class and some double specs of the same class. For me to gear half of them will take 2 or more years, it’s why I’ve not even got one ALT fully geared under this current gearing.

 

One MM Op will net the ops guys a whole piece of armor and mats to craft armor or sell it.

How long does one OP take compared to farming enough UCs to get 4 crystal?

 

Farming UCs will be the slowest and most grindy way to get crystals to gear up. PvPers, who will arguably need access to the best gear if there are other people with it in pvp, will have the longest path to getting that gear.

PvPers are unfairly being alienated with this 5.10 gearing. It will stop many of us from playing if it goes ahead as it’s been announced.

This will kill pvp in the game or at least make it so pathetic that only noobs will consider playing because all the actual pvpers will have left. Pvp queues get longer and more people leave.

Any that remain will be pvp gods in BiS gear destroying noobs, which makes it unenjoyable for the noobs and they stop playing. And queues get long still till hardly anyone queues.

This is a BIG NAIL in the pvp coffin and it’s effects will be felt through the whole game because if we leave at this late stage of the game, the game closes quicker for everyone. We don’t have enough of a population to absorb another gear mistake like 5.0. If abioware don’t see that, then this game will die before 6.0 is even released.

 

Some of you might say I’m over reacting, but you said the same thing about the predictions some of us made about 5.0 gearing, slow server mergers, conquest, class balance, matchmaking and I dare say desync for the 100th time.

All have or are becoming true. My logic has been sound with my predictions, maybe not 100% on the time frames, but pretty close,

If I’m trying to scare you into action, it’s because it’s needed before it’s too late. If the cold hard facts can’t get the population to care enough, then there is nothing else I can do. I’ve done my part.

 

I’m passionate about this game and it’s players, It’s for that reason I’m even posting about all of this. I don’t want the game to end, I dont want Bioware to make another monumental mistake and drive players away. I don’t want to be right.

 

I am hoping they will see the player concerns and feed back and change the system for the better.

If they release this as is and I’m wrong about the vast majority of actual pvpers leaving and the ultimate affects they have to the whole game, I will post a public apology.

[Jdast]

Either way, the best estimate for someone with 40k UCs is going to be 1-2 months to gear if just using UCs.

 

This is the only quote of yours that matters.

 

1) THIS ASSUMES NO ALTS. Let me put on my megaphone again... PER CHARACTER NOT PER LEGACY! Really, can you not grasp that?

 

2) Who cares? Yes, gearing will be slow until 6.0 is released. You, and I, and others have established that fact. For PvP purposes, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS OF NOW BECAUSE GEARING VIA CRAFTING IS HELLACIOUS.

 

You care only about PvP. Right now, as of the PTS, you will gear faster given the number of alts you have.

 

Math is hard.

 

I'm guessing Totem has me on block because I am pointing out simple math she refuses to acknowledge.

 

Dasty

Edited October 20, 2018 by Jdast

[Totemdancer]

Let me add something to my last post.

 

The more Alts you have, the more you have to spread your UCs around to gear them all.

That is, unless you only care about gearing one.

Which isn’t my idea of fun and is what happened in 5.0 to make people leave.

 

The only way to get more UCs is to play a lot of hours. 40 hours a week to buy 1 piece is a lot of grind for little reward.

I think some people aren’t taking into account just how many hours it takes to get those UCs to start with,

[Jdast]

Let me add something to my last post.

 

The more Alts you have, the more you have to spread your UCs around to gear them all.

That is, unless you only care about gearing one.

Which isn’t my idea of fun and is what happened in 5.0 to make people leave.

 

The only way to get more UCs is to play a lot of hours. 40 hours a week to buy 1 piece is a lot of grind for little reward.

I think some people aren’t taking into account just how many hours it takes to get those UCs to start with,

 

And the more synergistic it is. Honestly, do you realize how often you contradict the point you are trying to make?

 

Dasty

Edited October 20, 2018 by Jdast

[mrphstar]

This is the only quote of yours that matters.

 

1) THIS ASSUMES NO ALTS. Let me put on my megaphone again... PER CHARACTER NOT PER LEGACY! Really, can you not grasp that?

 

2) Who cares? Yes, gearing will be slow until 6.0 is released. You, and I, and others have established that fact. For PvP purposes, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS OF NOW BECAUSE GEARING VIA CRAFTING IS HELLACIOUS.

 

You care only about PvP. Right now, as of the PTS, you will gear faster given the number of alts you have.

 

Math is hard.

 

I'm guessing Totem has me on block because I am pointing out simple math she refuses to acknowledge.

 

Dasty

 

probably blocked.

 

or they just dont want to hear about facts and continue their rant, cuz its fun.

its getting to a point where i'm not sure if they are trolling, or just are that ignorant.

[kukumburr]

This is the only quote of yours that matters.

 

1) THIS ASSUMES NO ALTS. Let me put on my megaphone again... PER CHARACTER NOT PER LEGACY! Really, can you not grasp that?

 

2) Who cares? Yes, gearing will be slow until 6.0 is released. You, and I, and others have established that fact. For PvP purposes, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS OF NOW BECAUSE GEARING VIA CRAFTING IS HELLACIOUS.

 

You care only about PvP. Right now, as of the PTS, you will gear faster given the number of alts you have.

 

Math is hard.

 

I'm guessing Totem has me on block because I am pointing out simple math she refuses to acknowledge.

 

Dasty

 

Even if you only ever spend the 500 UCs to get the shards, 2000 UCs per piece is a LOT even for gearing up one character, let alone alts. I mean yeah people who have stockpiled UCs have an advantage for gearing one character but it does hurt people who play several characters. Which just seems like bad design to me since this has always been an alt-friendly game.

 

For comparison right now if you had to buy Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4's most expensive piece (weapon/offhand) it would cost 1935 UCs. So the most expensive piece that had to be upgraded the whole way (which you usually don't have to do because you get some pieces in GC crates) still costs less than any single piece of the new gear assuming you always make the 500 UC to 1 crystal exchange. And there's no chance of getting 258 gear from crates, although you can rarely get a crystal. And yes you can get crystals from dailies and weeklies too but I'm talking pure PvP.

 

It's really not fast, and it's really not alt-friendly. It's a massive grind. And yeah crafting route seems extremely expensive, but it looks like unassembled pieces will also drop so raiders can just turn those in. The only people this gearing system is beneficial to is extremely rich people who can buy the gear directly from crafters, and NiM raiders who can get the dropped pieces and also become extremely rich from selling the mat. Everyone else has a major grind ahead of them, particularly if they want to gear more than one character.

[Totemdancer]

Even if you only ever spend the 500 UCs to get the shards, 2000 UCs per piece is a LOT even for gearing up one character, let alone alts. I mean yeah people who have stockpiled UCs have an advantage for gearing one character but it does hurt people who play several characters. Which just seems like bad design to me since this has always been an alt-friendly game.

 

For comparison right now if you had to buy Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4's most expensive piece (weapon/offhand) it would cost 1935 UCs. So the most expensive piece that had to be upgraded the whole way (which you usually don't have to do because you get some pieces in GC crates) still costs less than any single piece of the new gear assuming you always make the 500 UC to 1 crystal exchange. And there's no chance of getting 258 gear from crates, although you can rarely get a crystal. And yes you can get crystals from dailies and weeklies too but I'm talking pure PvP.

 

It's really not fast, and it's really not alt-friendly. It's a massive grind. And yeah crafting route seems extremely expensive, but it looks like unassembled pieces will also drop so raiders can just turn those in. The only people this gearing system is beneficial to is extremely rich people who can buy the gear directly from crafters, and NiM raiders who can get the dropped pieces and also become extremely rich from selling the mat. Everyone else has a major grind ahead of them, particularly if they want to gear more than one character.

 

Yay, someone who gets it.

[Jdast]

Even if you only ever spend the 500 UCs to get the shards, 2000 UCs per piece is a LOT even for gearing up one character, let alone alts. I mean yeah people who have stockpiled UCs have an advantage for gearing one character but it does hurt people who play several characters. Which just seems like bad design to me since this has always been an alt-friendly game.

 

For comparison right now if you had to buy Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4's most expensive piece (weapon/offhand) it would cost 1935 UCs. So the most expensive piece that had to be upgraded the whole way (which you usually don't have to do because you get some pieces in GC crates) still costs less than any single piece of the new gear assuming you always make the 500 UC to 1 crystal exchange. And there's no chance of getting 258 gear from crates, although you can rarely get a crystal. And yes you can get crystals from dailies and weeklies too but I'm talking pure PvP.

 

It's really not fast, and it's really not alt-friendly. It's a massive grind. And yeah crafting route seems extremely expensive, but it looks like unassembled pieces will also drop so raiders can just turn those in. The only people this gearing system is beneficial to is extremely rich people who can buy the gear directly from crafters, and NiM raiders who can get the dropped pieces and also become extremely rich from selling the mat. Everyone else has a major grind ahead of them, particularly if they want to gear more than one character.

 

But for so-called "pure PvP-ers" the fact that it is slow does not and should not matter. Why? Because it is equally slow for everyone. And if the crafting system is hellacious, as you admit, it does not benefit those with credits on the GTN until very late in the cycle. If you don't understand why, I just don't know what to say.

 

Moreover, as of the current PTS, it is simply fallacious to say that gearing up a few alts is slower than gearing up a main for a very, very simple factual reason: As of now on the PTS (subject to change), the throttling mechanism is Masterwork Shards (MWS) acquisition and reputation. Reputation applies to all and will almost certainly be insignificant (two weeks + 1 day by current standards). To the extent it matters -- it only reinforces the argument about alts.

 

So, would you rather play your main for a month and gain 8 MWS (2 per week assuming 1 weekly and 1 purchase at 500 UC) or play 4 characters and get 32 MWS and legacy the items over? (Yes, I'm aware of what I hope is the bug about switching over mods / enh, which shockingly Totem said if not fixed will cause the majority of players to leave the game).

 

Reality check. Do you think the planetary weekly will take more than an hour or so? And, yes, I hope the PvP weekly also grants a MWS (duh) so hopefully folks like Totem, Trixie, Lhance, et al, never have to touch PvE outside of the rep gain.

 

As of now, absent changes on the PTS, PvP is the second fastest way to gear up. The faster way is you do a bit of both, preferably across a couple characters. How do I know this? Math. Obviously, the fastest is NiM Ops, the weeklies, and PvP spread out across a few characters. So, yes, someone who engages in all three activities will gear up faster. #shocker

 

Do I think the prices are too high? Yes, but ... wait for it... if they are equally high across the spectrum the PvPers are not hurt. Why do you think every thread, including on Reddit, about the crafting route has people registering sticker shock?

 

Totem started posting about UC's going up per item, despite us telling her repeatedly that it is character and not legacy-based and resets weekly. I have no problem with her constant doom and gloom, but when she flat out misrepresents what is on the PTS, yeah, I'll call it out.

 

<<takes sip from fabulous martini and tosses another hapless Gamorrean into the beast pit>>

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Eric or Keith, on the slim chance you are reading this, increase bolster to 252. Duh...

Edited October 20, 2018 by Jdast

[Fallensouls]

The more I consider all the secondary affects this will have on the game, the more I think this will hurt the whole game.

 

You know they have done this since the first year of this game and every time they do it they lose subs. They make the gear you busted your butt for no good only to grind for more. People get tired of grinding for gear all the time. All the new gear system will do is add to the problems of the GTN which is ridiculous as it is now.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Fallensouls

[Lhancelot]

But for so-called "pure PvP-ers" the fact that it is slow does not and should not matter. Why? Because it is equally slow for everyone.

 

Let's just agree with this statement. Let me ask you this Dasty, is this going to improve the player's experience on SWTOR? Will this endear players to the game? Be honest.

 

I assume you are trying to be reasonable and trying to quell the mob mentality of so many players who are seemingly jumping to conclusions and criticizing a new gear grind that is going to be added to the game. I like to view situations from all different angles myself before coming to a conclusion.

 

That being said, no one wants more gear grind, or a "slow" gear grind as you called it. No one. The fact is PVP focused players also are at a disadvantage to gear up, and in reality they are the one group of players who probably need the gear most seeing it has a direct impact on the outcome in WZs. For competition to be fair in PVP, the gear gap should be minimal and this new "slow" grind as you called it will make gearing alts even worse and create tons of gear gaps across all our toons when we want to PVP them.

 

You can paint the picture the way you see it, but the fact is gearing alts sucks now and will suck even more once they implement this new gear system.

 

History has shown BW has taken parts of SWTOR due to shortsightedness or ignorance and stripped parts of the game that were good, that were fun.

 

 

SWTOR History Lesson 1.0 (Fixing things that were never broken in the first place!)

 

1. They did such a fine job of ruining the gearing system with 5.0 that they ended up having to walk back the gear grind and make alterations to it, and guess what? That entire gearing change was unneeded! No one complained they could gear alts and had a highly customizable gearing system... No "fix" was needed!

 

2. Conquest was totally wrecked, they destroyed it and made it WORSE pushing more people off the game, again. Punishing alts, again.

 

3. And now, they are talking about adding a slower gear grind, that also benefits only those who run NiM OPs, a facet of the game that is recognized as very small... When did anyone think to themselves, "Hey, I think the gear grind is too fast now, I sure hope they make it more challenging! And make it so it takes even longer for me to gear alts seeing the gear grind will be slower! YES! That's what I need! Oh, and put the gear behind NiM OPs too! I never did one NiM OPs or whatever it is called, but it sure sounds like fun doing PVE to get BiS even though in the past I always could do other PVE activities or PVP to gear up!"

 

 

Does this sound sensible to you?

 

They FIX things that are not broken, they add patches that destroy fun facets of the game, and are oblivious to critical feedback which means they put blinders on and push changes through even when it's clear to many people the changes will be bad.

 

I have not logged in for 5 days now. If their desired affect was to push people who enjoy alts and PVP away from the game, I'd say this design they have decided for SWTOR is becoming a BIG success.

 

Not to sound egotistical, but every time I have stepped away from the game due to massive design changes, the game has lost tons of subs and when I returned, it had a far less prolific population. Fact is, this change is going to hurt the game. I aint alone in viewing these changes as unnecessary and detrimental to SWTOR.

 

You can defend their reasons for doing what they plan to do, but the bottom line is the changes with only hurt the game. I aint a doom and gloom type of person either. You ought to know that by my past posts.

[kukumburr]

But for so-called "pure PvP-ers" the fact that it is slow does not and should not matter. Why? Because it is equally slow for everyone. And if the crafting system is hellacious, as you admit, it does not benefit those with credits on the GTN until very late in the cycle. If you don't understand why, I just don't know what to say.

 

Moreover, as of the current PTS, it is simply fallacious to say that gearing up a few alts is slower than gearing up a main for a very, very simple factual reason: As of now on the PTS (subject to change), the throttling mechanism is Masterwork Shards (MWS) acquisition and reputation. Reputation applies to all and will almost certainly be insignificant (two weeks + 1 day by current standards). To the extent it matters -- it only reinforces the argument about alts.

 

So, would you rather play your main for a month and gain 8 MWS (2 per week assuming 1 weekly and 1 purchase at 500 UC) or play 4 characters and get 32 MWS and legacy the items over? (Yes, I'm aware of what I hope is the bug about switching over mods / enh, which shockingly Totem said if not fixed will cause the majority of players to leave the game).

 

Reality check. Do you think the planetary weekly will take more than an hour or so? And, yes, I hope the PvP weekly also grants a MWS (duh) so hopefully folks like Totem, Trixie, Lhance, et al, never have to touch PvE outside of the rep gain.

 

As of now, absent changes on the PTS, PvP is the second fastest way to gear up. The faster way is you do a bit of both, preferably across a couple characters. How do I know this? Math. Obviously, the fastest is NiM Ops, the weeklies, and PvP spread out across a few characters. So, yes, someone who engages in all three activities will gear up faster. #shocker

 

Do I think the prices are too high? Yes, but ... wait for it... if they are equally high across the spectrum the PvPers are not hurt. Why do you think every thread, including on Reddit, about the crafting route has people registering sticker shock?

 

Totem started posting about UC's going up per item, despite us telling her repeatedly that it is character and not legacy-based and resets weekly. I have no problem with her constant doom and gloom, but when she flat out misrepresents what is on the PTS, yeah, I'll call it out.

 

<<takes sip from fabulous martini and tosses another hapless Gamorrean into the beast pit>>

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Eric or Keith, on the slim chance you are reading this, increase bolster to 252. Duh...

 

I agree the crafting way is expensive, but I don't agree that it's going to be that long before they're for sale (assuming PTS numbers are the same). Ancient tomes are bought with 65 things you get from doing Ossus dailies/weeklies. Dailies seem to give 12 each, weeklies 30 to 40. However they can be put on the GTN. Everyone doing the dailies and weeklies who doesn't care about crafting their own gear will sell these, especially early on since they can probably charge a decent amount. Superior Resource Matrices are easy. CMTs might end up being a limiter but obviously you can just buy them off GTN, and the more in demand they are the more mat farmers you're going to get in grouped ranked so that'll sort itself out. The yellow Forgotten pieces drop from the NiM bosses, but a screenshot from Tyth drops showed him dropping at least 2 of different types and these are apparently also sellable. Then the Ossan Assembly Components which Dulfy has as being RE'd from 252 but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way I'm assuming those are also sellable, so I guess it depends how hard getting 252 is.

 

I don't see any of that taking long to show up on GTN, unless people can't kill anything in NiM GotM.

 

But regardless of who gets gear faster, the amount of grind is just terrible design to me. It's not fun and there's no real reason for a new tier of gear that is randomly completely different from the other tiers this expansion. Also while current players keeping up with this information can game the system so they can gear faster on release, I feel like this whole design would be a major put off to newer players. "Ignore all those NPCs you see selling 236-248 gear for UCs on the fleet, you need to hoard them all so you can skip some of the massive grind to get 258 later on from a NPC in the latest story area. BTW despite hitting max level before even getting to KOTFE you can't actually get BiS gear until you do that latest story area, which makes you skip any intermediate story you haven't done yet. Unless you have a ton of credits, then you can just go to the GTN. Good luck getting into ranked pvp!" How does that sound good to anyone?

[Andryah]

That’s not exactly correct. You got part of it right.

 

It will cost 500 for the first and 1000 for the second.

But they continue to increase in price the more you buy.

Best guess is it will be 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000.

There may even be a cap on how many you can buy.

 

^^ this only applies within a given week, between weekly server soft resets on lockouts.

 

It clearly is being done to discourage the player sitting on 50K+ UCs from cashing them all in on day one after the patch and being fully geared and in PvP. If you cannot see how this is to create some balance in gear acquisition between the PvP player who has very little UCs and the player that is over flowing with them.. then I it is probably pointless to continue to discuss this with you.

 

Same goes for Ossus faction.. you can't get to Hero in one week, so you can't get to the gear vendors immediately even if you spend UCs at a horrible penalty ramp. It will likely not be until week three.. because of throttle limits on faction gains in this MMO.

 

The point of all the studio settings and throttles here is not some grand conspiracy against PvP players. If it was.. then they simply would have never put the UC + Vendor pathway in to begin with. They clearly have in mind that it take 3-4 weeks for the bulk of the players to be obtaining a meaningful number of pieces of the new gear.

 

I get that some players want their gear on day one and all.. but in my view they have done a reasonable job here in providing multiple pathways to the gear, as well as trying to keep fairness to some degree between players: UCs for PvPers, and perhaps some PvEers, MM OPs for the traditional BiS gear pathway, and crafting to fill in gaps in equipment or to permit some form of gearing acceleration once crafting ramps up in the player economies some weeks after patch (when crafting is ramped up... because it will take some time).

Edited October 20, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I agree the crafting way is expensive, but I don't agree that it's going to be that long before they're for sale (assuming PTS numbers are the same). Ancient tomes are bought with 65 things you get from doing Ossus dailies/weeklies. Dailies seem to give 12 each, weeklies 30 to 40. However they can be put on the GTN. Everyone doing the dailies and weeklies who doesn't care about crafting their own gear will sell these, especially early on since they can probably charge a decent amount. Superior Resource Matrices are easy. CMTs might end up being a limiter but obviously you can just buy them off GTN, and the more in demand they are the more mat farmers you're going to get in grouped ranked so that'll sort itself out. The yellow Forgotten pieces drop from the NiM bosses, but a screenshot from Tyth drops showed him dropping at least 2 of different types and these are apparently also sellable. Then the Ossan Assembly Components which Dulfy has as being RE'd from 252 but I'm not sure if that's right. Either way I'm assuming those are also sellable, so I guess it depends how hard getting 252 is.

 

I don't see any of that taking long to show up on GTN, unless people can't kill anything in NiM GotM.

 

 

Realistically, based on what we know about materials requirements currently... it will be at least 2 weeks before the pieces show up on the GTNs.. and as in the past.. these will be priced at scalper premiums initially because of scarcity. Oh sure.. there might be a few different pieces available a bit sooner.. but nothing even remotely close to "full sets". Another 4-6 weeks will be needed before volumes are sufficient and competitive pricing sets in before this gear is actually readily available in the player economy. So as has been true with past crafted tiers... it will be a couple months before the crafted variety of this gear is really available at stable prices and in quantities to allow most player to fully gear. This of course assumes that the studio also renormalizes material costs and drop rates/sources such that the new top tier is roughly at parity with the prior Gemini gear in terms of cost to acquire. I do expect Gemini gear prices will fall, and the tier 5 prices will be carry the "new gear" surcharge that is common for rare crafted gear.

 

Some guilds will in fact have an assembly line running for their members, so some guilded players may in fact have some leverage here in time and costs... but then again.. isn't that suppose to be one of the benefits of a guild.....players pulling together to overcome challenges inside an MMO??

 

But regardless of who gets gear faster, the amount of grind is just terrible design to me. It's not fun and there's no real reason for a new tier of gear that is randomly completely different from the other tiers this expansion. Also while current players keeping up with this information can game the system so they can gear faster on release, I feel like this whole design would be a major put off to newer players. "Ignore all those NPCs you see selling 236-248 gear for UCs on the fleet, you need to hoard them all so you can skip some of the massive grind to get 258 later on from a NPC in the latest story area. BTW despite hitting max level before even getting to KOTFE you can't actually get BiS gear until you do that latest story area, which makes you skip any intermediate story you haven't done yet. Unless you have a ton of credits, then you can just go to the GTN. Good luck getting into ranked pvp!" How does that sound good to anyone?

 

No disagreement... which is why many players will look at the gear, measure the small incremental gain in power and stats from it, and conclude it is simply not worth the effort for most players VS what is gained in return. This gear is not required.. just desired. Even for PvPers.... from listening to the PvP players... not that many PvPers are even in full 248s today... after almost two years of 5.0.... so I don't buy the complaints about "unfairness".

 

All of this is in fact rather normal for BiS gear in MMOs historically. BiS pathways are always a difficult thing for a studio to implement and balance simply because players want it NOW, they want it cheaply, etc. etc... whereas the studio will be looking to slow players down such that the new gear does not become "been there done that.. NEXT!" from the locusts. If anything.. the studio has been too generous with dispensing of BiS in some past expacs.. and once you give players generosity (even over generosity), they balk at any sort of renormalization of BiS gear progression.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Andryah

[DzastinBiberi]

This is the only quote of yours that matters.

 

1) THIS ASSUMES NO ALTS. Let me put on my megaphone again... PER CHARACTER NOT PER LEGACY! Really, can you not grasp that?

 

2) Who cares? Yes, gearing will be slow until 6.0 is released. You, and I, and others have established that fact. For PvP purposes, IT DOES NOT MATTER AS OF NOW BECAUSE GEARING VIA CRAFTING IS HELLACIOUS.

 

You care only about PvP. Right now, as of the PTS, you will gear faster given the number of alts you have.

 

Math is hard.

 

I'm guessing Totem has me on block because I am pointing out simple math she refuses to acknowledge.

 

Dasty

 

I have a question tho. You keep saying

 

"UC increase is per char, not legacy, its weekly resetted etc"

 

I knew all that before you posted it, but you're missing one big fact and that is, mods and armorings cant be removed from those gear pieces, thats what ppl wrote since I'm not on PTS myself.

 

I'm guessing that you are so I gotta ask, are Mastergrind shards legacy wide then?

 

If they arent, all this "use your alts" strategy is false then.

[Andryah]

I have a question tho. You keep saying

 

"UC increase is per char, not legacy, its weekly resetted etc"

 

I knew all that before you posted it, but you're missing one big fact and that is, mods and armorings cant be removed from those gear pieces, thats what ppl wrote since I'm not on PTS myself.

 

I'm guessing that you are so I gotta ask, are Mastergrind shards legacy wide then?

 

If they arent, all this "use your alts" strategy is false then.

 

The crystals are BoP, but UCs are not.. so this is really not a problem BECAUSE........

 

For the gear that is sold by the vendors.....stats ARE in mods.. which you can pull and put in a BoL piece of gear and then move that to another character, pull the mods and use them at the destination charcter... just like players have been doing for years. Source: http://dulfy.net/2018/10/13/swtor-masterwork-armor-crafting-acquisition-in-patch-5-10/

 

We don't know about the crafted gear yet I don't think.. as I am not sure that the recipes are up on PTS yet. Not that it much matters... seeing as the crafted gear will be BoE apparently.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Andryah

[Jdast]

I have a question tho. You keep saying

 

"UC increase is per char, not legacy, its weekly resetted etc"

 

I knew all that before you posted it, but you're missing one big fact and that is, mods and armorings cant be removed from those gear pieces, thats what ppl wrote since I'm not on PTS myself.

 

I'm guessing that you are so I gotta ask, are Mastergrind shards legacy wide then?

 

If they arent, all this "use your alts" strategy is false then.

 

You are 90% correct. In a different post, I acknowledged this point, but I'm not trying to score debating points.

 

It will be up to individuals how they game the system, and some may feel the bonus of non-optimal stats is still worth it...

 

But, yes, my "use your alts" strategy -- while not false -- is minimized if it remains the case that you can't swap mods and enh slots. The reason I say 90% is you can buy the right item -- if you're stupid you will fail. For tanking slots, yes, I acknowledge it's an issue. For all other classes -- no. Hence the 90 percent.

 

But as Andryah correctly notes, you can still buy right mods / enh (not tanking ones -- I get the B slot issue).

 

That's why I give you a 90% correct rating, and all should acknowledge your correct point.

 

Dasty

 

P.S it's nice to engage with someone who engages in the micro and actually looks at the data. That's not sarcasm. This is what we can hopefully use to help BW (assuming they will listen).

Edited October 21, 2018 by Jdast

[alexsamma]

The people who claim that the UC route is advantageous to pvpers simply do not understand how efficient the UC grind is for MM(NIM) raiders.

 

According to my friend (Hoppin on Star Forge) who runs MM operations he can generally grind ~2000 UCs per an hour... pvpers can grind ~100-150 UCs per hour (factoring in queue pop times for solo/group ranked and the extra rewards for completing dailies/weeklies).

 

To give an "apples to apples" comparison I have to acknowledge the following:

 

PVP does not have lockouts and PVE does (this can be over-come with alts)

PVP always gives UCs, PVE only awards UCs for success

There are not many established groups that are capable of farming MM/NIM operations

 

The new gearing system is extremely lopsided in how it rewards progression PVE players over every other sub-group in the game.

 

On another note:

 

Honestly the worst part of releasing new gear with 5.10 is that otherwise the patch looks extremely promising, so much so that I would say it has the chance of being the best patch we receive in 5.x (and this is coming from someone who primary pvps); I've actually un-subbed to show my disdain for this decision but will continue to monitor the forums to see how BW responds to player concerns

 

P.S.

 

I personally have zero issues with grinding gear in pve and I think it's awesome that they are rewarding players for putting in the effort required to engage in progression raiding, but I have a strong disdain for gear advantages in PVP; if BW had not coupled PVE and PVP gearing in 5.0 I would have zero issues with this new gearing system.

Edited October 20, 2018 by alexsamma

[Andryah]

P.S it's nice to engage with someone who engages in the micro and actually looks at the data. That's not sarcasm. This is what we can hopefully use to help BW (assuming they will listen).

 

^^ I very much agree with this comment.

 

Much much better then some of the hyperbolic drive-bys, which do nothing except give the studio an valid excuse to just ignore the rhetoric even if it has some underlying justifiable basis. Feedback to MMO studios works best when conducted as a reasoned, logical, coherent influence effort, rather then the ever popular gamer approach of vitriol, hyperbole, and just plain ranting.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Andryah

[asiasusanna]

Something that some people are overlooking and being a little blasé about is the amount of time needed to play to stock pile Unassembled components.

 

Before you start citing your numbers as complete and absolute truth, let's discuss dailies and weeklies that give a hefty amount of UCs as well. Let's assume that you wanna do easy mode farming and you go for TR. Let's assume that you'll pick up the daily (4 matches, gives 75 UCs, wins count as 2 played matches) and you pick up the weekly (20 matches, same rules apply). 4 matches can be easily done in 20 minutes if you do it during prime time. 5 days in a row = 375 UCs, plus the 250 from the weekly, plus however much you got from the actual matches. This (at worst) is gonna take you 1,5-2h for the entire week, on one toon. Now do it on 4 toons per week, and watch your UCs grow in no time- also don't forget that you get UCs from all the crates that you'll end up dissolving. Don't skewer the math in your favor to make a point, it just makes you sound ignorant.

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

[alexsamma]

Before you start citing your numbers as complete and absolute truth, let's discuss dailies and weeklies that give a hefty amount of UCs as well. Let's assume that you wanna do easy mode farming and you go for TR. Let's assume that you'll pick up the daily (4 matches, gives 75 UCs, wins count as 2 played matches) and you pick up the weekly (20 matches, same rules apply). 4 matches can be easily done in 20 minutes if you do it during prime time. 5 days in a row = 375 UCs, plus the 250 from the weekly, plus however much you got from the actual matches. This (at worst) is gonna take you 1,5-2h for the entire week, on one toon. Now do it on 4 toons per week, and watch your UCs grow in no time- also don't forget that you get UCs from all the crates that you'll end up dissolving. Don't skewer the math in your favor to make a point, it just makes you sound ignorant.

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

Four team ranked matches in 20 minutes.... where, which server, and who are you feeding?

[tummiswtor]

To be honest I don't care how many UC we need or luck we need. I care only about end-game fun, For me 258 gear could be even instant or from quests.

[mrphstar]

I have a question tho. You keep saying

 

"UC increase is per char, not legacy, its weekly resetted etc"

 

I knew all that before you posted it, but you're missing one big fact and that is, mods and armorings cant be removed from those gear pieces, thats what ppl wrote since I'm not on PTS myself.

 

I'm guessing that you are so I gotta ask, are Mastergrind shards legacy wide then?

 

If they arent, all this "use your alts" strategy is false then.

 

they never stated the mods cant be removed, they just said you cant swap their slots.

you cant put an OH armor into a helmet. what you can do is, buy the offhand with one of your toons, put its mods into a legacy bound OH and give it to the character you wanna gear first.

 

the slot binding for all mods is a totaly different problem which should be removed anyway, but that doesnt affect the multi-toon system.

 

According to my friend (Hoppin on Star Forge) who runs MM operations he can generally grind ~2000 UCs per an hour... pvpers can grind ~100-150 UCs per hour (factoring in queue pop times for solo/group ranked and the extra rewards for completing dailies/weeklies).

 

your friend is lieing, or you just misunderstood what he said.

 

2000 UCs/hour would be round about 20 boss kills per hour.

even if we assume they grind one specific boss with 20 different toons, i.e. nefra, it would take them about 10mins from grouping up, getting into the OP, clearing trash and killing the boss.

 

so its more like 600-700/hour, if you like nefra alot(or dont, depending on the point of view).

and thats best case scenario, if you got 10 NiM ready toons and know 7 other people who do have 10 toons as well, and like to see that ugly face 6 times per hour as well.

 

realisticly if you wanna farm a whole NiM OP, it would be 400-500/hour.

 

but since that reward is still more than pvp rewards (in case you missed the important point here): you can´t stand in a corner, waiting for a match to be over, which you could actualy do in pvp. you gotta activily join the fight and kill the boss. and even if its nefra, 70% of the players can´t even kill her once, because they dont know their rotations etc.

Edited October 21, 2018 by mrphstar

[Rion_Starkiller]

I have a question tho. You keep saying

 

"UC increase is per char, not legacy, its weekly resetted etc"

 

I knew all that before you posted it, but you're missing one big fact and that is, mods and armorings cant be removed from those gear pieces, thats what ppl wrote since I'm not on PTS myself.

 

I'm guessing that you are so I gotta ask, are Mastergrind shards legacy wide then?

 

If they arent, all this "use your alts" strategy is false then.

 

?

 

Buy chestpiece on any toon. Pull mods and put in legacy chestpiece. Mail to alt. Profit.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[alexsamma]

they never stated the mods cant be removed, they just said you cant swap their slots.

you cant put an OH armor into a helmet. what you can do is, buy the offhand with one of your toons, put its mods into a legacy bound OH and give it to the character you wanna gear first.

 

the slot binding for all mods is a totaly different problem which should be removed anyway, but that doesnt affect the multi-toon system.

 

 

 

your friend is lieing, or you just misunderstood what he said.

 

2000 UCs/hour would be round about 20 boss kills per hour.

even if we assume they grind one specific boss with 20 different toons, i.e. nefra, it would take them about 10mins from grouping up, getting into the OP, clearing trash and killing the boss.

 

so its more like 600-700/hour, if you like nefra alot(or dont, depending on the point of view).

and thats best case scenario, if you got 10 NiM ready toons and know 7 other people who do have 10 toons as well, and like to see that ugly face 6 times per hour as well.

 

realisticly if you wanna farm a whole NiM OP, it would be 400-500/hour.

 

but since that reward is still more than pvp rewards (in case you missed the important point here): you can´t stand in a corner, waiting for a match to be over, which you could actualy do in pvp. you gotta activily join the fight and kill the boss. and even if its nefra, 70% of the players can´t even kill her once, because they dont know their rotations etc.

 

I don't run MM ops so this is all second information, and from my understanding this is completing both Scum and Villainy and Dread Palace.

 

SnV has 7 bosses (100 * 6 + 250 *1) = 850

Dread Palace has 5 bosses ( 100 * 4 + 250 * 1) = 650

Total: 1500

 

Then you add in the UCs form breaking down gear drops from Tier 4 crates (at least 1 per boss, and each weekly)

 

Perhaps he meant to say in two hours, I can ask him the next time I talk with him, regardless the amount the UCs they are able to farm is far greater than what a pvper can farm in a similar time frame.

 

I acknowledged that you have to complete the operations to gain the rewards, but this whole line concerning sitting in a corner doing nothing to get rewards from pvp is asinine, a typical match lasts ~15 minutes and a loss only rewards 8 UCs... if you simply sat in a corner and did nothing and lost every match you would average ~32 UCs per hour, not including the rewards from completing the daily/weekly (of course you might win occasionally doing this and that amount would increase).

 

Gearing in PVP and PVE is functionally different and Bioware should have never coupled the two together; since gear is now shared between PVP and PVE Bioware needs to offer paths for both types of players to obtain the gear in a similar time frame.

 

Edit: I spoke with Hoppin and that figure was for two hours, and his average per an hour is 1k (and that is assuming solid drops from tier 4 crates).

Edited October 21, 2018 by alexsamma