SWTOR finally going P2W

[Andryah]

I think a lot of confusion (obtuseness? ) stems from defining what the W means to any of us. In an MMO that could mean so many different things. To the people saying this move, specifically, is pay to WIN, then it must mean to them they win the game if they have BiS gear. However, since they can't actually pay for it off the CM directly, it isn't PAY to win even if that is the narrow definition of winning.

 

You are very much correct here.

 

I think like so many discussions around an MMO ... people can and will distort and conflate the meaning of a term to try to weaponize it in a discussion. This has been done periodically with the P2W term over the years here... and in most cases it really boils down to some variation of "new gear is expensive to buy or time consuming to earn, and I am poor or lack the time and focus, so it HAS to be P2W". Which is simply an opinion based on being poor in game, and any player is entitled to their opinion, but that does not make it fact. The broad pushback from forum members in this thread pretty well validates that this is yet another attempt to turn a term into a weapon to prosecute a personal frustration.

 

The generally accepted definition of P2W has been, and remains ---> buying the best gear directly from the studio for real life money AND that being the only way to get said best gear.. which for any PvPer would mean they too must pony up real life money to compete. SWTOR has been, and continues to be miles away from this.

 

I look at in game currency, which is generally the lubricant that makes in game player economies actually work well, as just another challenge in the game to be overcome. You assess your actual need, assess the challenge to realize your need, and then you make a plan to overcome the challenge. And just like some players will come to the forum and complain about getting rolled in an PvP mathc and that therefore the other party must have cheated, or exploited.. some players are simply poor at wealth management in a game and insist anyone wealthier then them obviously cheated or exploited.

 

From an economics perspective... this particular MMO is one of the friendliest in terms of allowing players multiple methods to accumulate wealth and have it to spend on anything their hearts desire. So... anything behind a credit wall in game is simply a cost well within reach of any enterprising player.

 

Oh.. and I guess because we need to keep saying it until it gets through the "rock pile": The new tier 5 gear is NOT P2W.. no matter how much someone insists otherwise. It's not even clear that the new gear will even be BiS... particularly since it is likely to be only a modest boost in stats and crafted gear does not typically carry any set bonus to it either. In reality... it is more then likely just another hamster wheel that the less discriminating hamsters of the world will jump on just because it is there.. without actually assessing if it is actually worth the time, effort, and resources to obtain. Just because the studio places an hamster wheel down.. does not mean the hamsters need to hop on it, nor that it is worth the hamsters time to do so.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Vhaegrant]

It really depends on your definition of Pay to Win.

 

Mine has always been "Buy highest level gear directly from (insert game company) using real world cash."

 

This isn't that.

 

There's a middleman in there, the player who crafts the items and decides what the price to list on the GTN is going to be.

 

Since it isn't direct, it isn't P2W.

Glad someone knows the definition of P2W, shame it wasn't the OP.

 

For the majority of players this isn't an issue. I can level up a character naked with just a main hand weapon thanks to bolster. For those that really need that high tier, isn't that what guild participation is for? Organising the crafters, sorting the runs for materials to craft, prioritising supply to guild members first and then open market.

 

It may not be the biggest boost for solo crafters and players, but given the incoming attention to guilds I think it may inject a bit of life back into guild activity.

[IanArgent]

Yeah and what are main sources of credits in this game after they nerfed heroics? Yep - 1)Selling things from CM;2) selling mats for augments or augments itself. Not directly but it is p2win. You buy from cm, sell it on gtn, then use credits to buy bis gear from players.

 

Oh and dont forget about credit sellers.. YOu buy credits from sellers and then buy bis gear from gtn.

 

Not direct p2win... + more inflation

 

Nerfed heroics? I took most of the summer off for one reason or another, came back, and It seems to me that heroic payouts have increased. I used to have a mental rule of thumb that running Coruscant and DK would net around 100K, and now it seems I'm netting close to 200k.

 

I mean, maybe I'm misremembering, but I put almost 2 mil into my legacy bank this week, and I wasn't really doing much of what felt like work to me, and I certainly wasn't hitting the "efficient" heroics like Imp Voss or Pub Corellia.

[Andryah]

Yeah and what are main sources of credits in this game after they nerfed heroics? Yep - 1)Selling things from CM;2) selling mats for augments or augments itself. Not directly but it is p2win. You buy from cm, sell it on gtn, then use credits to buy bis gear from players.

 

Oh and dont forget about credit sellers.. YOu buy credits from sellers and then buy bis gear from gtn.

 

Not direct p2win... + more inflation

 

^^ This is ridiculous.

 

You basically accused him of buying credits from RMTs (that is why you capitalized YOU.. right.. to make it personal?). I'm no fan of TUXs, nor is he a fan of me here in the forum... but I know complete BS when I see it and you should apologize to TUXs and stop the nonsense.

 

Besides.. it's nobodys fault but your own if you are credit poor in this MMO. This particular MMO basically throws credits at players... with almost no credit sinks at all upon the player.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

One of these days I should chronicle an attempt to get up to Cr25 mil or so,; as a 10-hour-or-so a week player doing my usual play style, which is a bit of story, a bit of heroic grind, the odd group-up for FPs and WZ queues.

 

Probably take a month or two, I would guess. Maybe less because I'd have the intention in mind, so I'd probably do a couple of planetary heroic series every couple of nights.

[kodrac]

Yeah and what are main sources of credits in this game after they nerfed heroics? Yep - 1)Selling things from CM;2) selling mats for augments or augments itself. Not directly but it is p2win. You buy from cm, sell it on gtn, then use credits to buy bis gear from players.

 

Oh and dont forget about credit sellers.. YOu buy credits from sellers and then buy bis gear from gtn.

 

Not direct p2win... + more inflation

 

Where to begin... Selling things from the CM is not a primary source of gaining credits. You can do it, but it's neither guaranteed nor efficient. Augment crafting, mat farming and H2s are. None are P2W.

 

If you want to take the lazy approach and blow your CCs on something and hope it sells at bloated prices be my guest, but while you attempt the quick and easy, the rest of us will make guaranteed credits running content and selling things that are guaranteed to sell at near bloated prices in volume. And just like you're welcome to take the view that's P2W, it's also lazy.

Edited September 6, 2018 by kodrac

[Savej]

The argument seems to be: if a player can buy/sell a BIS item from/to another player then the game is p2w because cartel market items can also be bought/sold from/to another player. Nonsense - if that's it then the OP is just looking for an excuse to vent. Edited September 6, 2018 by Savej

[xordevoreaux]

The argument seems to be: if a player can buy/sell a BIS item from/to another player then the game is p2w because cartel market items can also be bought/sold from/to another player. Nonsense - if that's it then the OP is just looking for an excuse to vent.

 

We can all find excuses to vent. The push-back the OP is getting for doing so by citing a falsehood and indiscriminately tossing a term around in the process.

Edited September 6, 2018 by xordevoreaux

[mhobin]

We can all find excuses to vent. The push-back the OP is getting for doing so by citing a falsehood and indiscriminately tossing a term around in the process.

 

OP here

 

You are all looking at this from the perspective of a hardcore player who has put years into the game. You have lots of credits. Crafted top end gear is a pure cash grab for Bioware. If a new player asks on fleet chat, what is the fastest way to get gear?

 

The answer is to buy items on the CM, sell them and then buy gear. I guarantee this descion was made by the devs after they saw an increase in CM sales when they made augment mats much more rare.

 

You can use the most strict definition of P2W if you want, but it does not change the fact that the easiest way to skip all the work you have done for years is to pay real money and skip any type of grind.

Edited September 6, 2018 by mhobin

[IanArgent]

OP here

 

You are all looking at this from the perspective of a hardcore player who has put years into the game. You have lots of credits. Crafted top end gear is a pure cash grab for Bioware. If a new player asks on fleet chat, what is the fastest way to get gear?

 

The answer is to buy items on the CM, sell them and then buy gear. I guarantee this descion was made by the devs after they saw an increase in CM sales when they made augment mats much more rare.

 

You can use the most strict definition of P2W if you want, but it does not change the fact that the easiest way to skip all the work you have done for years is to pay real money and skip any type of grind.

 

I'm fricking broke! My entire legacy cash on hand right now doesn't exceed 2 mil, and most of THAT I pulled up in the past week or so by doing heroics. My cash goes to buying unlocks and outfit designer slots; and companion gifts. I haven't got a single CL300 character, and most of my character companions cap out at like 10 or 12 influence (but for one or two at 30-50 - which is why I buy all those comp gifts)

 

If someone asked me "what's the fastest way to get credits" I'd say "get yourself to the planetary heroics terminal." I fsomeone asked me "how do I get BiS gear" I'd ask them why they needed it.

[mhobin]

I'm fricking broke! My entire legacy cash on hand right now doesn't exceed 2 mil, and most of THAT I pulled up in the past week or so by doing heroics. My cash goes to buying unlocks and outfit designer slots; and companion gifts. I haven't got a single CL300 character, and most of my character companions cap out at like 10 or 12 influence (but for one or two at 30-50 - which is why I buy all those comp gifts)

 

If someone asked me "what's the fastest way to get credits" I'd say "get yourself to the planetary heroics terminal." I fsomeone asked me "how do I get BiS gear" I'd ask them why they needed it.

 

If they hav set bonuses, I need it for ranked PvP.

 

Running heroics is faster then buying a hypercrate and selling it for 75m? I need to start doing heroics.

[Savej]

So your answer to prove it is not P2W is that I should cheat and pay real money?

 

No, my answer is that you're a fanatic and you're never going to be happy. You should have left a long time ago. Stick to single player games.

[IanArgent]

If they hav set bonuses, I need it for ranked PvP.

 

Running heroics is faster then buying a hypercrate and selling it for 75m? I need to start doing heroics.

 

Note carefully the questions I answered; and way to move the goalposts from "how to get BiS gear" to "how to get ANY set bonus gear."

 

If you want set bonus gear, play the game, get command crates and disintegrate non-set-bonus gear for UCs. Probably play PvP for more UCs (I only PvP rarely). I just blew about 300 command tokens on a set of gear for a character I rarely play, aand another couple have hand-me-down gear from their mirror classes or different-spec alts that I play more frequently.

 

Why you're jumping from "just hit level cap so I have no UCs and no command points" straight into Ranked PvP, I don't know. Maybe you should play some unranked to get command ranks, command token, and UCs first?

[mhobin]

No, my answer is that you're a fanatic and you're never going to be happy. You should have left a long time ago. Stick to single player games.

 

Maybe I am a fanatic. I really hate how game business has become predetory. Look at games like NBA 2k, or battlefront where you have to pay an large amounts of additional money after buying the game just to be competitive.

 

Here I pay a subscription, this practice encourages subs to pay real money in the CM to keep up with others who will do the same (or have grinder more in the past then I have). If you have grinded more your advantage is well earned, but if I can wipe out that advantage with $50 then your getting into a shady territory.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Maybe I am a fanatic. I really hate how game business has become predetory. Look at games like NBA 2k, or battlefront where you have to pay an large amounts of additional money after buying the game just to be competitive.

 

Here I pay a subscription, this practice encourages subs to pay real money in the CM to keep up with others who will do the same (or have grinder more in the past then I have). If you have grinded more your advantage is well earned, but if I can wipe out that advantage with $50 then your getting into a shady territory.

 

CM is NOTHING but cosmetic. Nothing in there to make you more competitive, just prettier.

[Andryah]

Here I pay a subscription, this practice encourages subs to pay real money in the CM to keep up with others who will do the same (or have grinder more in the past then I have). If you have grinded more your advantage is well earned, but if I can wipe out that advantage with $50 then your getting into a shady territory.

 

I have never used real money to get me some credits.. either directly or indirectly via CM buying and reselling in game. In fact.. the first approach can get you a game ban, and the second approach is absurdly inefficient compared to actual in game ways to build and accumulate wealth.

 

But if you want to ignore all in game pathways to credit wealth by applying the inefficient approach of buying CM content and selling it for credits in game.. that is YOUR choice to do so.. but it demonstrates a lack of planning and focus on your part. There are some "referral farmers" who go that route.. but it's because they have chosen referral farming for CCs as their path to in game wealth. You will not wipe out my credit advantage (or many other players) over you.. because it would literally cost you thousands of dollars.

 

There is simply no need to go either of these routes though, unless you think and approach the game in only two dimensions. Many thousands of players have figured out that it is their best interests to figure out their spending needs in game, and develop and adhere to a personal plan for meeting or exceeding those needs. It's not rocket science to do in any MMO.. and most especially this one.

 

Keep digging in here.. but you will just keep getting valid pushback.. because as you say.. you are being fanatical about this and deliberately misusing P2W as a term to cover up the fact that you personally either can't be bothered, or refuse to learn how, to be credit self-sufficient in this MMO.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Rion_Starkiller]

L2P and stop calling everyone a white knight for disagreeing with your noobery.

QFE and saving this for possible signature.

7 pages and my 1 sentence still sums up this thread

Edited September 6, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Andryah]

If they hav set bonuses, I need it for ranked PvP.

 

Running heroics is faster then buying a hypercrate and selling it for 75m? I need to start doing heroics.

 

Here's a thought... maybe wait and see before going full tilt here. Why? Because to date.. in this almost 7 year old game.... crafted gear simply has never had set bonus on it.

 

As for your insistence that your only way to 75M credits it to buy a hypercrate and sell it in game... all I can say is that may work on a one-off basis as an expedient to not actually having a plan for creating ongoing wealth in game to meet your personal spending needs ... but you are failing at playing the game in my view. Player economy is as much a part of MMOs today as every other aspect of content... so ignore it at your own peril.. and by all means then complain that you "have to spend real money" to get faux in game money. Poor planning in my view.. but it's up to you.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

7 pages and my 1 sentence still sums up this thread

 

LOL... you are not wrong.

 

But it does seem to be some "forum right of passage" to have to deal with this sort of silly thread topic every so often.

[RikuvonDrake]

No, my answer is that you're a fanatic and you're never going to be happy. You should have left a long time ago. Stick to single player games.

 

most reasonable post in this thread

[Andryah]

Maybe I am a fanatic. I really hate how game business has become predetory. Look at games like NBA 2k, or battlefront where you have to pay an large amounts of additional money after buying the game just to be competitive.

 

Um.... you are confusing "want to" or "choose to" with "have to" here. You do not have to do this... period... full stop... unless you simply do not realize the value of a personal in game wealth plan when playing an MMO.

 

You cannot directly by BiS gear from the studio here. You can choose to go the inefficient route of buying CCs an then buying CM items and reselling them in game for credits. However.. you do not have to.. as thousands of players know and understand.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Just imagine if you could "borrow" credits in game, from the studio, or guilds, or individuals. Players who don't have a wealth plan would be perpetually in debt beyond their ability to pay back what they borrowed.

 

Happily... that is not the way MMOs work.. though in fairness private corps tried this back in the day in EVE.. and it blew up big time because there is simply no workable remedy for defaulting.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

I have never used real money to get me some credits.. either directly or indirectly via CM buying and reselling in game. In fact.. the first approach can get you a game ban, and the second approach is absurdly inefficient compared to actual in game ways to build and accumulate wealth.

 

But if you want to ignore all in game pathways to credit wealth by applying the inefficient approach of buying CM content and selling it for credits in game.. that is YOUR choice to do so.. but it demonstrates a lack of planning and focus on your part. There are some "referral farmers" who go that route.. but it's because they have chosen referral farming for CCs as their path to in game wealth. You will not wipe out my credit advantage (or many other players) over you.. because it would literally cost you thousands of dollars.

 

There is simply no need to go either of these routes though, unless you think and approach the game in only two dimensions. Many thousands of players have figured out that it is their best interests to figure out their spending needs in game, and develop and adhere to a personal plan for meeting or exceeding those needs. It's not rocket science to do in any MMO.. and most especially this one.

 

Keep digging in here.. but you will just keep getting valid pushback.. because as you say.. you are being fanatical about this and deliberately misusing P2W as a term to cover up the fact that you personally either can't be bothered, or refuse to learn how, to be credit self-sufficient in this MMO.

 

I’m dug in. I am not using P2W wrong. There will now be an avenue to pay real money to achieve BiS gear. That is P2W. In a sub based game (which endgame is), there should be no way to pay real money and have an advantage over any other player.

 

Your only argument is that I will not have an advantage over you, because you have lots of credits. Now, I agree it is not hard making credits in this game. But it still takes x amount of hours. By paying real money I can wipe out all that time. I can make every hour you spent making your fortune obsolete by spending real money.

 

Btw there is no way you can say using the CM is inefficient. I forgot my sub was running while I was away and had a ton of CCs, bought a hypercrate, sold it on the GTN and made a ton of credits.

[Andryah]

I’m dug in. I am not using P2W wrong. There will now be an avenue to pay real money to achieve BiS gear. That is P2W. In a sub based game (which endgame is), there should be no way to pay real money and have an advantage over any other player.

 

And this has been my point and the point of others in this discussion.... you cannot get an advantage over other players by buying this crafted gear (directly or indirectly). EVERY player has equal access to this gear.. by crafting it themselves, or buying it from a crafter... period and none of them has to use CCs to buy CM content to sell to other players to do so.

 

YOU can choose to do that if you wish.. and that is your choice.. but other players can and will acquire this gear without paying any real money in the process. Your choice does not make it P2W... for you it would be more along the lines of "I'm poor in game so I have to pay to catch-up" with every other player who can directly buy with credits they already have.

 

Poor logistics management by you does not make something P2W... no matter how "dug in" you are on the discussion.

 

Your only argument is that I will not have an advantage over you, because you have lots of credits. Now, I agree it is not hard making credits in this game. But it still takes x amount of hours. By paying real money I can wipe out all that time. I can make every hour you spent making your fortune obsolete by spending real money.

 

Btw there is no way you can say using the CM is inefficient. I forgot my sub was running while I was away and had a ton of CCs, bought a hypercrate, sold it on the GTN and made a ton of credits.

So.. you admit to using available horded CCs from your ongoing monthly sub.. and hence spend no real money... yet insist this new tier of gear is forced P2W? Cute switch up there.

 

Now.. I can understand your misperception here.. being credit poor and having no consistent plan for accumulating in game wealth. But the fact is.. players like myself simply devote a few minutes each day to their wealth plan and reap the results each morning when they log in. Other players spend time differently.... but it is their time to spend and they go that route instead of your route. Regardless.. they are not spending real money to get the gear in question.

 

Spending CCs to get credits IS inefficient.. even though it works and is allowed by the studio. I spend no CCs or real money to have items to sell on the GTN.. yet I routinely log in and collect 10-20 M in profits every morning... and have billions on hand from simply following my daily plan. You on the other hand spend CCs to convert to credits via GTN... which is fine... but it's not an efficient use of CCs. CCs are most efficiently used for things you simply cannot purchase from another player off the GTN. You are certainly free to use your CCs inefficiently... but eventually you will tap out and then be forced to spend real money for more of them under your method.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Sith-Viscera]

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

 

U do know the gear on the CM has no stats to them, they are just the shell? You still have to get the in game mods through CXP tokens to get that good gear then you can tear the mods out of them and put them in the gear you bought on CM. You do know that, right? If you do, Then how is that P2W?