How are people able to remove from guild bank without triggering the log?

[LasagnaSurfer]

So I have a liberal guild bank policy in my guild, and I let people take things out at their discretion as long as I don't see them just taking things out and selling them. And sometimes we will get people who quit the guild and take as much out as they can before and these people show up on the log even after quitting the guild.

 

But lately, I've noticed a lot of items going out of the bank but not showing up on the log. I know this because I keep one tab stacked to the brim with 228 augments that members can pull out. But since they take my time and money to make I generally like to monitor it to be sure no one is abusing my generosity too too much.

 

The only possible thing I can think of, is that we have special characters messing up the log? I know there are some ways you can't even send tells to odd characters without jumping through hoops, so I wonder if that might be the case.

[LasagnaSurfer]

No one?

[QuinlanSaathis]

If this is happening it is a hack.

There is no legitimate way to do that.

[xordevoreaux]

Not sure what happens when a toon removes stuff from a bank, shifts the stuff to an alt, and then deletes the toon that did the thieving, whether a record remains behind in the bank log for deleted toons. Guess I could always create an alt and test it myself.

[QuinlanSaathis]

Not sure what happens when a toon removes stuff from a bank, shifts the stuff to an alt, and then deletes the toon that did the thieving, whether a record remains behind in the bank log for deleted toons. Guess I could always create an alt and test it myself.

 

It is just a text list there is no reason for it to delete the name if the character is deleted.

And once it writes to that list it no longer references the character database.

[JattaGin]

No one?

 

I honestly have no idea what it could be.

 

The only thing that comes to my mind is that if you have such things happening, maybe you should consider restricting access after all? I like your laid-back attitude, but if it doesn't work, then make some rules for your guild's togetherness. It's a pity that you have to state things like "Don't steal things from the guild bank. or "Don't be a douche." But unfortunately some people steal things from the guild bank and some people are douches.

[Tsillah]

It is just a text list there is no reason for it to delete the name if the character is deleted.

And once it writes to that list it no longer references the character database.

 

That's a big assumption, especially since your name does disappear on items you crafted when the character gets deleted. So I'm not so sure you have a point here.

[QuinlanSaathis]

That's a big assumption, especially since your name does disappear on items you crafted when the character gets deleted. So I'm not so sure you have a point here.

 

Possibly but I stand by my words

My experience tells me you do not reference a database for a text list any more than you have to, its a universal rule of thumb.

[Tsillah]

Possibly but I stand by my words

My experience tells me you do not reference a database for a text list any more than you have to, its a universal rule of thumb.

Except that if someone robs the guild bank and deletes the character and someone else in the guild then makes a character with that same name who can interact with the guild bank you have the name from two different characters in the log. It seems much more logical to me, also considering what happens with crafted items, that all references of that name are removed also from a GB log. If you're right then someone could in theory be blamed for something they didn't do. In the end MMOs are a bit trickier than a regular database.

[foxxycandy]

In past experience, if that person quits the guild, the log vanishes.

[Andryah]

Except that if someone robs the guild bank and deletes the character and someone else in the guild then makes a character with that same name who can interact with the guild bank you have the name from two different characters in the log. It seems much more logical to me, also considering what happens with crafted items, that all references of that name are removed also from a GB log. If you're right then someone could in theory be blamed for something they didn't do. In the end MMOs are a bit trickier than a regular database.

 

Tsillah is spot on about this aspect, so I would encourage the OP not to simply dismiss it because it does not fit their narrative.

 

Several things could very well trigger a fresh query of character data, and as such could over-write or purge a guild log entry. A deleted character would certainly be one of them, for the reasons Tsillah shared. Also, quitting a guild or transferring from the server would likely trigger a database refresh of the log.... to again... avoid confusion as to the actual character of record. Behind the scenes.. the servers keep track of a character by a code-string (to retain uniqueness even when renames are made or characters are deleted and a name reused)....NOT the actual character name, and then cross references the code string to an actual character name for rendering of display wherever name display is appropriate. A good log would take this into account and be able to retain log data, but the log code likely has not been revised over the years since character renames, transfers, etc. have been added to the game.

 

To the OP: Honestly.. run some experiments and settle your question for yourself. People have already given feedback on possible causes.. so test them and see.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Andryah

[xordevoreaux]

1. I created a new toon named Nibnub

2. Invited Nibnub into one of my side guilds and promoted him to a rank necessary to withdraw from the guild bank.

3. Nibnub then removed 5k credits and 2 (cheap) items from the guild bank. Ledger and log showed the transactions.

4. I deleted Nibnub after stashing what he took into my legacy bank.

5. Checking the log and ledger again on another toon in the guild, the history of both transactions persisted in the logs.

 

So we can safely say the log is never updated based on the existence or non-existence of toons interacting with the bank.

 

And that means, that yes, another toon, completely unrelated to the account that created the original Nibnub, could create a toon named Nibnub, join the guild, and subsequently be accused of thefts he didn't commit.

[SirBrastius]

I have a small guild of my own and I can verify that sometimes the logs don't show who takes things but interestingly enough for mine it only is a problem if the player has 2 names ex "Player Name" vs "Playername" (I tested with one of my alts) only my toon with a single name showed on logs

[xordevoreaux]

I have a small guild of my own and I can verify that sometimes the logs don't show who takes things but interestingly enough for mine it only is a problem if the player has 2 names ex "Player Name" vs "Playername" (I tested with one of my alts) only my toon with a single name showed on logs

 

So every bank thief from here on out knows exactly what to do. We should probably submit this as a bug as something for BW to address.

[SirBrastius]

Sorry was just trying to help

Edited July 5, 2018 by SirBrastius

[xordevoreaux]

Sorry was just trying to help

 

I PM'd Eric Musco with it. Thanks for letting us know.

[SirBrastius]

What is really odd is that people with 2 names are fine on the roster and stuff

[Andryah]

I have a small guild of my own and I can verify that sometimes the logs don't show who takes things but interestingly enough for mine it only is a problem if the player has 2 names ex "Player Name" vs "Playername" (I tested with one of my alts) only my toon with a single name showed on logs

 

Interesting. I can see how this might have happened when they introduced the new naming convention with a space as valid.

 

Definitely need to bug report that.. because this will cause grief to guild owners if unscrupulous players make use of it. Thing is though.... guild owners really should not allow unrestricted access if they are concerned about abuse (which honestly is always a possibility and a risk).

[Storm-Cutter]

I don't have any technical expertise, but closer management of guild assets is a wise precaution.

 

• I would advise that any significant money is entrusted to the guild master or trusted officers. -Same with any valuable gear / equipment / materials.
   
  
• I would also restrict lower ranks to small withdrawals or limit the credits per week.
   
  
• Keep a slush fund for guild repair bills, occasional expenses.
   
  
• Manage the tabs of the guild bank to free issue / use but donate / restricted.
  

 

- But most importantly keep tabs on who can invite who to a guild. - Keeping it to a select few will narrow down any suspects if something goes wrong. - Letting everyone invite anyone is asking for trouble.

 

OTOH as a guild you should be able to replace any losses quite quickly if you all address the problem and all contribute some personal wealth to the guild.

 

GL. I hope you find out what has happened.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Storm-Cutter

[Khaleg]

That is not possible afaik. Only the guild leader himself can hide certain log entries from other ranks.

[Tsillah]

So we can safely say the log is never updated based on the existence or non-existence of toons interacting with the bank.

 

Well no, we can't say that just yet. We can safely state that it doesn't happen right away. I'm not sure if there is a delay in that sort of thing or requires a server maintenance to get rid of all traces of a character for example. Not saying you're wrong but not enough scenarios have been tested to be sure that it doesn't happen. Perhaps checking an hour later and a day later would already tell us more.

 

When you delete a character from your account, that character may not be gone from the server yet the same instant is what I'm saying. I have no idea what happens in the background you see, but it'd be interesting to see if the log is there a day later still for example.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised either if it was a bug but what I am saying is that we can't jump to conclusions too quickly. There are still various scenarios possible in spite of your test.

[Andryah]

Well no, we can't say that just yet. We can safely state that it doesn't happen right away. I'm not sure if there is a delay in that sort of thing or requires a server maintenance to get rid of all traces of a character for example. Not saying you're wrong but not enough scenarios have been tested to be sure that it doesn't happen. Perhaps checking an hour later and a day later would already tell us more.

 

When you delete a character from your account, that character may not be gone from the server yet the same instant is what I'm saying. I have no idea what happens in the background you see, but it'd be interesting to see if the log is there a day later still for example.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised either if it was a bug but what I am saying is that we can't jump to conclusions too quickly. There are still various scenarios possible in spite of your test.

 

Server restarts flush a number of types of data that we as players have become accustomed to seeing.

 

I would bet a server restart initiates a bunch of refresh routines that flush deleted character from various tables, logs, etc. So yeah.... it would not surprise me if something lingers in the guild log until a restart when it applies to deleted characters or characters that transfer off server.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Andryah

[xordevoreaux]

Well no, we can't say that just yet. We can safely state that it doesn't happen right away. I'm not sure if there is a delay in that sort of thing or requires a server maintenance to get rid of all traces of a character for example. Not saying you're wrong but not enough scenarios have been tested to be sure that it doesn't happen. Perhaps checking an hour later and a day later would already tell us more.

 

When you delete a character from your account, that character may not be gone from the server yet the same instant is what I'm saying. I have no idea what happens in the background you see, but it'd be interesting to see if the log is there a day later still for example.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised either if it was a bug but what I am saying is that we can't jump to conclusions too quickly. There are still various scenarios possible in spite of your test.

 

It's been two days now since the dearly departed Nibnub went on to better things in pixel Heaven (or to keep open the possibility, pixel Hell), and ... the bank log information about his activities are intact.

 

I'd need the presence of mind to perform the test again near to the time of an announced server bounce/maintenance since this the bank logs only last 2 weeks anyway (or the OP since I'm sort of doing that person's homework for him).

[LasagnaSurfer]

In past experience, if that person quits the guild, the log vanishes.

 

That certainly isn't true in some of the cases.

[LasagnaSurfer]

I have a small guild of my own and I can verify that sometimes the logs don't show who takes things but interestingly enough for mine it only is a problem if the player has 2 names ex "Player Name" vs "Playername" (I tested with one of my alts) only my toon with a single name showed on logs

 

I tested one of my alts named Kamate Kamate and he showed up on the logs. So it can't be for all of the two names characters.