Too many Jugg/Guardian

[Mournblood]

It literally takes twice the amount of damage to kill a Jugg now compared to pre-5.9.

 

Mercs/Mandos have at least as much if not more survivability, long before they fixed ED/FD for Juggs/Guardians. Are you one of those players that beats mindlessly on a Merc/Mando when their Reflect is up? If not, and you're smart enough to avoid hitting them or you CC them instead, just apply the same practice to Juggs/Guardians when ED/FD is up.

 

I'm seeing a lot of vigi/veng in regs lately. Most of them are well-geared and knowledgeable, which makes them murderous against the ungeared, ignorant masses.

 

Nearly any DPS class that is geared and in the hands of someone knowledgeable is murderous against the ungeared and ignorant.

 

Everyone better be prepared for an influx of dps Juggs and Sins.

 

Fixed that for you. PTs will be just as easy to kill and focus post 5.9.2 as they have been for the last year and a half. Anyone still playing a DPS PT is either a masochist, or obstinate to a fault.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Mournblood

[TrixxieTriss]

Fixed that for you. PTs will be just as easy to kill and focus post 5.9.2 as they have been for the last year and a half. Anyone still playing a DPS PT is either a masochist, or obstinate to a fault.

 

Or exceptional talented that they can make a mouse seem OP

These are the PTs I’m referring to.

Edited June 12, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

What a load of rubbish. Maybe try not hitting them through ED

Great idea! I'll just... stand there for the 12(?) seconds that ED takes to go away. DPS classes simply shouldn't have defenses like this. Merc reflect is OP and so is ED. Edited June 12, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[KendraP]

Great idea! I'll just... stand there for the 12(?) seconds that ED takes to go away. DPS classes simply shouldn't have defenses like this. Merc reflect is OP and so is ED.

 

A major difference between merc reflect and FD:

Merc reflect effectively works as an antifocus. It becomes MORE effective the more people insist on wailing into it.

 

FD is the opposite: if you have multiple people focusing said juggie (as few as 2 good dps) you can totally ignore FD and tunnel through it for dps anyway. My tank is different, ive popped it at 15% and gotten a full life before on my tank. In vig, i pop it sub 40-50% because otherwise i will die to the focus before it does any net healing.

 

FD is not nearly as op as a merc reflect which is a self heal and antifocus rolled into one. I will grant FD is far better than say, an PTs kolto overload, which heals only to 40% which ia about thr time i use FD under focus as a dps.

[krosswong]

Great idea! I'll just... stand there for the 12(?) seconds that ED takes to go away. DPS classes simply shouldn't have defenses like this. Merc reflect is OP and so is ED.

 

It is totally possible to preemptively decide who you're going to swap to when the merc you're on pops reflect. Situational awareness is still a thing right?

[DavidAtkinson]

A major difference between merc reflect and FD:

Merc reflect effectively works as an antifocus. It becomes MORE effective the more people insist on wailing into it.

 

FD is the opposite: if you have multiple people focusing said juggie (as few as 2 good dps) you can totally ignore FD and tunnel through it for dps anyway. My tank is different, ive popped it at 15% and gotten a full life before on my tank. In vig, i pop it sub 40-50% because otherwise i will die to the focus before it does any net healing.

 

FD is not nearly as op as a merc reflect which is a self heal and antifocus rolled into one. I will grant FD is far better than say, an PTs kolto overload, which heals only to 40% which ia about thr time i use FD under focus as a dps.

 

You really like beating around the bush don't you ?

 

What most people have a hard time getting is that ANOTHER LIFE SELF HEAL is OP in PVP and that is why Merc is so broken, it has MULTIPLE ANOTHER LIFE"s at his disposal. Merc reflect shield does nothing and most ppl stun them or AOE them during, but what makes them broken is ANOTHER LIFE vs trash DPS classes like sin that has none of those.

 

Also Jugg DPS is getting there too because 1v1 they are hard now because they can heal to full and ED isn't really as visible as reflect shield merc eh ?

 

 

If more people wine about Jugg it will be FOTM in no time. taunts, self heals, guards ? Sounds good candidate for the next broken class fotm fanboys will roll in season 10.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

is not nearly as op as a merc reflect which is a self heal and antifocus rolled into one..

 

That's like saying the south pole is colder than the north . They're both still OP and should not be available to DPS classes, at least after they were buffed in 5.9 (no clue how FD/ED was earlier).

 

I'd argue that even tanks should not have access to a potential heal-to-full, especially now since only 1 of the three tanks have this.

 

As a healer I know that if I have a Commando on my team they get the lowest priority even if their HP drops really low, since they can handle themselves for a long time. Same goes for Guardians now - they pop FD, get a H2F, and I always feel like I wasted a bunch of force and DCDs when I could be healing a Shadow or Sentinel or Vanguard or Scoundrel or Gunslinger instead...

 

Anything that is even a potential H2F is overpowered. Healing should be left to healers. These OP DCDs are what is supposedly ruining PvP.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[TrixxieTriss]

Great idea! I'll just... stand there for the 12(?) seconds that ED takes to go away. DPS classes simply shouldn't have defenses like this. Merc reflect is OP and so is ED.

 

Ever heard of stuns, interrupts, mez, kiting or the DCDs on your own class?

 

If you are dumb enough to hit a Jugg through ED... well...

[TrixxieTriss]

They're both still OP and should not be available to DPS classes, at least after they were buffed in 5.9 (no clue how FD/ED was earlier).

 

As a healer I know that if I have a Commando on my team they get the lowest priority even if their HP drops really low, since they can handle themselves for a long time. Same goes for Guardians now - they pop FD, get a H2F, and I always feel like I wasted a bunch of force and DCDs when I could be healing a Shadow or Sentinel or Vanguard or Scoundrel or Gunslinger instead...

 

So what you’re saying is DPS classes shouldn’t have DCDs and only healers should have them?

Let me guess, you’re a Sage healer with a tonne of DCDs that include self healing and antifocus abilities like phasewalk and Bubble.

 

And if you’re a healer, why are you even attacking Juggs?

Why are you even posting about it unless you are trolling for nerfs because the big bad Juggs are killing you.

 

If you didn’t know how ED was before 5.9, then my guess is you’re new to pvp or the game. Get some play time under your belt before you start saying something is OP when it’s obviously not even close to being OP as many here can tell you,

 

I hate saying this to people, but L2P before you start calling for nerfs or saying something is OP. If you did, you would realise just how misinformed you are.

 

Edit: I checked your posting history and it’s not even 2 months since your first post. How long have you even been playing this game?

Edited June 12, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

So what you’re saying is DPS classes shouldn’t have DCDs and only healers should have them?

Let me guess, you’re a Sage healer with a tonne of DCDs that include self healing and antifocus abilities like phasewalk and Bubble.

 

And if you’re a healer, why are you even attacking Juggs?

Why are you even posting about it unless you are trolling for nerfs because the big bad Juggs are killing you.

 

If you didn’t know how ED was before 5.9, then my guess is you’re new to pvp or the game. Get some play time under your belt before you start saying something is OP when it’s obviously not even close to being OP as many here can tell you,

 

I hate saying this to people, but L2P before you start calling for nerfs or saying something is OP. If you did, you would realise just how misinformed you are.

 

Edit: I checked your posting history and it’s not even 2 months since your first post. How long have you even been playing this game?

 

Started SWTOR just a few months ago, but I'm already at Valor 100 on a few characters so I think I know what I'm talking about. I'll duel you if you're on Satele Shan

 

I don't care about the "history" of the class, all I can say is right now ED is overpowered. Are there more overpowered DCDs available to other classes? Yes, doesn't change the fact that ED is too.

 

Why does my spec matter? I play Sage and Commando heals and every DPS class apart from Knight. Still doesn't change the fact that ED is overpowered and should not be available to A DPS class.

 

I never said DPS classes shouldn't have DCDs. ED is a potential H2F, which is much more than a DCD. DPS class can have DCDs and Guardians even more so since they're supposed to be bulky, but they should not have heals. 12 stacks of immunity is better than 12 stacks of heals.

 

Do you have anything to add to the discussion apart from nitpicking about my playtime and choice of class?

Edited June 12, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

Ever heard of stuns, interrupts, mez, kiting or the DCDs on your own class?

 

If you are dumb enough to hit a Jugg through ED... well...

 

Ever heard of resolve and stun breakers? I can stun for 4 seconds at best. I don't have DCDs on my Shadow or Vanguard unfortunately... unless you mean stealth out in which case he heals to full regardless. Or you mean my small Vanguard heal which everyone knows is a joke (that's another DPS heal that should go).

Edited June 12, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Elusive_Thing]

Ever heard of resolve and stun breakers? I can stun for 4 seconds at best. I don't have DCDs on my Shadow or Vanguard unfortunately... unless you mean stealth out in which case he heals to full regardless. Or you mean my small Vanguard heal which everyone knows is a joke (that's another DPS heal that should go).

Sin has Whirlwind and, depending on spec, Low Slash. And no, he won't heal to full if you stealth out, because you can sap him afterwards. Whirlwind is a better option though. On VG you can slow and kite or alternatively use Carb. Honestly though, VG has a rather hard time neutralising ED, that's true.

 

Btw, if the Juggernaut breaks WW there, that's his mistake and a plus for you.

[TrixxieTriss]

Started SWTOR just a few months ago, but I'm already at Valor 100 on a few characters so I think I know what I'm talking about. I don't care about the "history" of the class, all I can say is right now ED is overpowered. Are there more overpowered DCDs available to other classes? Yes, doesn't change the fact that ED is too.

 

Why does my spec matter? I play Sage and Commando heals and every DPS class apart from Knight. Still doesn't change the fact that ED is overpowered and should not be available to A DPS class.

 

I never said DPS classes shouldn't have DCDs. ED is a potential H2F, which is much more than a DCD. DPS class can have DCDs and Guardians even more so since they're supposed to be bulky, but they should not have heals. 12 stacks of immunity is better than 12 stacks of heals.

 

Do you have anything to add to the discussion apart from nitpicking about my playtime and choice of class?

 

I did add something to the discussion. I told you, as did others, that ED isn’t OP.

 

I also call bull crap on you having a few characters on Valor 100 after 2 months. I don’t even believe you have 1 character at Valor 100 because it takes more than 2 months to get one toon to Valor 100. Please post some pics or it didn’t happen

 

Jugg ED is not over powered. You just have zero experience in the game to understand how to play against it. You’ve no understanding of classes in this game or the meta in which we play. Maybe if you did you would not be throwing around such statements in other threads like Shadows have no survivability

 

ED isn’t a heal to full. It doesn’t kick in till it’s below 70% and most Juggs know not to panick and activate it then. At best it’s a heal to 3/4 if used correctly. Even then, anyone stupid enough to stand there and hit a Jugg after they pop ED is just dumb,. It’s no different to people bashing on Sorc bubble and blowing all their major Crits or abilities while they are immune.

 

This is why I’m telling you it’s a L2P problem because if you were experienced enough, you would know that and use stuns, interrupts, mez, LoS or your own DCDs. ED has a 2 min CD and if you know what you are doing, it is easy to mitigate. If you don’t know what you are doing, you will make the situation worse for yourself.

 

Experience and practice will help you learn how to do this. QQ on the forums and arguing with experienced pvpers who’ve been playing this game for 6 years won’t help you. All it will do is make you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.

 

Seeing as you don’t play a guardian or a Jugg, why don’t you go roll one and play it for a few months, then come and tell us how OP ED is.

 

I can’t quiet decide if you are just trolling. If you are, well done, you got me.

Edited June 12, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

I did add something to the discussion. I told you, as did others, that ED isn’t OP.

 

I also call bull crap on you having a few characters on Valor 100 after 2 months. I don’t even believe you have 1 character at Valor 100 because it takes more than 2 months to get one toon to Valor 100. Please post some pics or it didn’t happen

 

Jugg ED is not over powered. You just have zero experience in the game to understand how to play against it. You’ve no understanding of classes in this game or the meta in which we play. Maybe if you did you would not be throwing around such statements in other threads like Shadows have no survivability

 

ED isn’t a heal to full. It doesn’t kick in till it’s below 70% and most Juggs know not to panick and activate it then. At best it’s a heal to 3/4 if used correctly. Even then, anyone stupid enough to stand there and hit a Jugg after they pop ED is just dumb,. It’s no different to people bashing on Sorc bubble and blowing all their major Crits or abilities while they are immune.

 

This is why I’m telling you it’s a L2P problem because if you were experienced enough, you would know that and use stuns, interrupts, mez, LoS or your own DCDs. ED has a 2 min CD and if you know what you are doing, it is easy to mitigate. If you don’t know what you are doing, you will make the situation worse for yourself.

 

Experience and practice will help you learn how to do this. QQ on the forums and arguing with experienced pvpers who’ve been playing this game for 6 years won’t help you. All it will do is make you look like you don’t know what you are talking about.

 

Seeing as you don’t play a guardian or a Jugg, why don’t you go roll one and play it for a few months, then come and tell us how OP ED is.

 

I can’t quiet decide if you are just trolling. If you are, well done, you got me.

Current ED is not even a month old so I think playing for 6 years is irrelevant here. But you know, you're 100% right and I'm convinced. I was wrong and I'm sorry for posting here. I'll go and learn to play. Have a nice day Edited June 12, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[TrixxieTriss]

Ever heard of resolve and stun breakers? I can stun for 4 seconds at best. I don't have DCDs on my Shadow or Vanguard unfortunately... unless you mean stealth out in which case he heals to full regardless. Or you mean my small Vanguard heal which everyone knows is a joke (that's another DPS heal that should go).

 

Wow, you really are inexperienced if you think Shadows don’t have DCDs or some of the best survivability in the game. You also have 3 stuns/CC on your shadow. Whirlwind and stun while in combat and a mez while stealthed.

If you havent already white bared the Jugg to full resolve, you can stealth out and mez the Jugg. If he breaks it, mez him again and come out of stealth and heal to full right in his face.

 

Yes VGs are in a bit of a bad place, but that’s the class and not because everyone else is OP. The class’s is just in a bad spot at the moment and you picked a really bad time / meta to learn it in.

 

Your Shadow shouldn’t be going head to head with a Jugg. You should be using tactics and strategy to get the Jugg to use up his DCDs and then take him down after he’s blown them all. If you can’t get him, stealth escape, heal to full and try again.

[TrixxieTriss]

Current ED is not even a month old so I think playing for 6 years is irrelevant here. But you know, you're 100% right and I'm convinced. I was wrong and I'm sorry for posting here. I'll go and learn to play. Have a nice day

 

LoL. The change to ED was minor and the tactics and use of it are exactly the same as before. The same as the way to mitigate it is. So yeah, I think my 6 years experience (12000+ hours) playing every class and spec have taught me enough to know what I’m talking about.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

Wow, you really are inexperienced if you think Shadows don’t have DCDs or some of the best survivability in the game. You also have 3 stuns/CC on your shadow. Whirlwind and stun while in combat and a mez while stealthed.

If you havent already white bared the Jugg to full resolve, you can stealth out and mez the Jugg. If he breaks it, mez him again and come out of stealth and heal to full right in his face.

 

Yes VGs are in a bit of a bad place, but that’s the class and not because everyone else is OP. The class’s is just in a bad spot at the moment and you picked a really bad time / meta to learn it in.

 

Your Shadow shouldn’t be going head to head with a Jugg. You should be using tactics and strategy to get the Jugg to use up his DCDs and then take him down after he’s blown them all. If you can’t get him, stealth escape, heal to full and try again.

Thanks. I'll do that from next time.

[Elusive_Thing]

Wow, you really are inexperienced if you think Shadows don’t have DCDs or some of the best survivability in the game. You also have 3 stuns/CC on your shadow. Whirlwind and stun while in combat and a mez while stealthed.

If you havent already white bared the Jugg to full resolve, you can stealth out and mez the Jugg. If he breaks it, mez him again and come out of stealth and heal to full right in his face.

Spike is a stun too, so four. Deception has Low slash too for a total of five. A well timed Overload with roots is excellent for kiting as well. However, if you try to facetank as a DPS Sin, you are going to have a bad time.

 

Mycroft: ED was like this before. In 3.xx or 4.xx, can't recall which.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Elusive_Thing

[TrixxieTriss]

Spike is a stun too, so four. Deception has Low slash too for a total of five. A well timed Overload with roots is excellent for kiting as well. However, if you try to facetank as a DPS Sin, you are going to have a bad time.

 

Mycroft: ED was like this before. In 3.xx or 4.xx, can't recall which.

 

Yep, true, I wasn’t sure what spec he was playing or utility choices he’d made, so I was keeping it simple.

 

If memory serves (and dementia has kicked in... yet) ED worked like this in 3.x or earlier.

Edited June 12, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Elusive_Thing]

Yep, true, I wasn’t sure what spec he was playing or utility choices he’d made, so I was keeping it simple.

 

If memory serves (and dementia has kicked in... yet) ED worked like this in 3.x or earlier.

Yeah, that's the patch I would guesstimate.

 

Grenades warrant a mention in general, though they are not class specific and the immunity lasts way longer than regular resolve.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah, that's the patch I would guesstimate.

 

Grenades warrant a mention in general, though they are not class specific and the immunity lasts way longer than regular resolve.

 

Grenades are friends, not food

[TrixxieTriss]

Snip

 

Have a look at this guide one of our community members put together. It’s very helpful for newer people and some older ones

https://swtor-tryhard.github.io/pvpguide/

[Kurj]

snip

 

Nearly any DPS class that is geared and in the hands of someone knowledgeable is murderous against the ungeared and ignorant.

 

snip

 

No doubt, but stacked AOE classes seem to be particularly disruptive. Jugg/guardian seems to be the most popular class in game anyways, and it's interesting to see the usual flood of juggs change from skanks to vigi/veng. I just wonder if we'll continue to see this after the update drops. The matchmaking changes won't reduce pops for DPS juggs the way they will for skanks, so I think there is a chance the new regs meta will include a lot of vigi/veng.

[KendraP]

No doubt, but stacked AOE classes seem to be particularly disruptive. Jugg/guardian seems to be the most popular class in game anyways, and it's interesting to see the usual flood of juggs change from skanks to vigi/veng. I just wonder if we'll continue to see this after the update drops. The matchmaking changes won't reduce pops for DPS juggs the way they will for skanks, so I think there is a chance the new regs meta will include a lot of vigi/veng.

 

If the matchmaking means i can no longer tank i will be going vigi because i am a guardian main and always have been, always will be.

 

What you should be afraid of are the crew that skank because of its "incredible damage" (hint: its not). I could see many of these guys rerolling maras because of the better damage and better toolkit for damage dealing. And, since healers should be evenly distributed between teams, there should be less issue with the healing factor.

 

Vigi is not a bad dps spec for pvp by any means; compared to particularly a concentration sent however, it suffers from a lack of antifocus or disengage tools coupled with low mobility. While any PT spec is strictly worse than vigi (in everything except maybe burst), even PT has better mobility. Both suffer the antifocus/disengage and PT has horrible defensive options too. Shadow and operative have more toys in terms of CC and stealth (and in opers case self heals as well).

 

I guess im not sure what the masses will decide. It depends om whether they are like me and dedicated guardian mains who run skank because either the dps specs are squishy (and in the case of focus, strictly worse than concentration) or (as in my case) because they finally got sick of running suboptimal gear for philosophical reasons (i.e. i don't particularly loke skanking). If they are indeed guardian mains who went skank out of sheer frustration, then yes, expect an influx of vigi guardians, because there is simply no point running focus over simply rolling concentration.

 

Now if, as i suspect from what I have seen of most skanks, they are people who have been deluded by the promise of top dps and kills every match and can't be bothered to use their superior survivability for anything that actually helps the team, expect an influx of concentration sents. Its probably the best melee dps class for pvp currently, assuming the team has a healer. At least for actual dps purposes anyway, sins and opers have their niche, vigi guardians aren't terrible right now, and PTs are frankly sad.

[Kurj]

If the matchmaking means i can no longer tank i will be going vigi because i am a guardian main and always have been, always will be.

 

What you should be afraid of are the crew that skank because of its "incredible damage" (hint: its not). I could see many of these guys rerolling maras because of the better damage and better toolkit for damage dealing. And, since healers should be evenly distributed between teams, there should be less issue with the healing factor.

 

Vigi is not a bad dps spec for pvp by any means; compared to particularly a concentration sent however, it suffers from a lack of antifocus or disengage tools coupled with low mobility. While any PT spec is strictly worse than vigi (in everything except maybe burst), even PT has better mobility. Both suffer the antifocus/disengage and PT has horrible defensive options too. Shadow and operative have more toys in terms of CC and stealth (and in opers case self heals as well).

 

I guess im not sure what the masses will decide. It depends om whether they are like me and dedicated guardian mains who run skank because either the dps specs are squishy (and in the case of focus, strictly worse than concentration) or (as in my case) because they finally got sick of running suboptimal gear for philosophical reasons (i.e. i don't particularly loke skanking). If they are indeed guardian mains who went skank out of sheer frustration, then yes, expect an influx of vigi guardians, because there is simply no point running focus over simply rolling concentration.

 

Now if, as i suspect from what I have seen of most skanks, they are people who have been deluded by the promise of top dps and kills every match and can't be bothered to use their superior survivability for anything that actually helps the team, expect an influx of concentration sents. Its probably the best melee dps class for pvp currently, assuming the team has a healer. At least for actual dps purposes anyway, sins and opers have their niche, vigi guardians aren't terrible right now, and PTs are frankly sad.

 

I'm not sure what I'll do. I've been focusing on my scrapper and sage lately, but I always go back to my guardian. I might play around with vigi or focus, but I'll probably just play the other 2 if I can't get pops on my tank.