why gods of the machine rarely form in fleet?

[Slowpokeking]

Untill you ran the nerfed content even more times and it gets even more borring again.

Why i dont get it? Because there is no logic in your point at all.

It's boring either way, but quicker, easier content would get more ppl to do it for the reward.

 

 

So now we are talking. Dont know why you came up with this "story is for everyone" -bs first.

All you want is easier CXP cause you are too lazy and to borred to grind it. I got bad news for you: Thats the whole point of an MMO after you cleared all content: grind.

 

And if you are tired of it, which is totaly understandable without new content, you should take a brake or move on to another game, simple as that.

But you dont make content even more borring because some peolple are tired of doing it. That way is a downward spiral you'll never get out of and lose even more players in the process.

 

That is true as well, Story Mode is meant to let everyone be able to finish it, so it shouldn't be too hard.

 

I don't even do ops much anymore, I'm just telling you the reason. It's boring anyway when you do it 20-30+ times. At least easy ones are much less annoying with pugs and could get quicker reward.

[Slowpokeking]

Been in this game for years and from what I can tell you people never got tired of running the stuff, no matter how old! There are always new people joining the guild wanting to do stuff for the first time and what do you tell them? Nah, I did that too many times, im not doing that with you! No, you help out, doesnt matter how many times you ran it, its an MMO and its about grouping up with the people and having fun.[.QUOTE]

It doesn't matter, most of the ppl do. And we are obviously losing players.

 

No, most of the ppl get bored with old content and they leave without new ones, this is WHY MMO spent so much money to keep update new stuff. Especially as daily reward, nobody wants to have fun on these, they just want reward.

 

 

Modern players?? Where did you get term from?

The content in the game is as quick as it gets! Even the new Nathema, when Im doing it on MM i use my Shadow/Assasin and when we enter the FPS i say: wait here, stealthing to boss. Then when i arrive at boss the 3 ppl jump off cliff to spawn next to boss! We skip all the annoying adds saving tens of minutes that would be wasted as you get only little cxp and credits from them.

 

If it were up to you, you would finish and operation in 5 minutes killing all 4-6 bosses and what then? You get your reward and what then? Think about it a little!

That is true, that is why MMO are losing to MoB these years.

 

Yeah you need a stealth character, without that the FP is long and boring. I've farmed it for 50+ times.

 

I've done them for so many times, of course I want quick run and reward.

[Slowpokeking]

So it's old? So what? I mean I don't follow the logic here, yeah it sucks we don't have multiple raids a year but does that really mean we ought to nerf the older ones? Again if you want quick CXP just wait and hope for a last boss lockout group or do easy content if you don't want to be bothered with it.

 

So ppl got tired of it, the only reason they are doing them are the reward, if they are too long or hard for pugs compare to the reward, they don't do it. It's that simple.

 

I don't even do ops much these days.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I kind of managed to get guild members within my guild to actually like Karagga's Palace - especoially the Newbies to OPs !

 

The more expeienced ones ... Well, it's like running a longer FPs for them.

 

It's *always* Newbies vs. Experienced Ones. Like we had in that fail of Explosive Conflict, it was successfully run by the more experienced guild members. Seemingly that fail was because of the Newbies.

 

( Maybe this means that Newbies should be excluded from OPs in general, cynically put ? )

 

They also failed the Ravagers, I read. I participated there only once, with a PUG fail as well - and that made me hate this OP. I don't r8un it, and I really wonder whether our guild will ever suceed in run ning it - apart from the experienced players, of course.

 

Experienced players are *never* any problem.

 

But some of them in the outer rim might consider Newbies as a problem - which might lead to a closed circle of experienced raiders. And this, knowledge gets forgotten and lost, because it is not told / taught to Newbies anymore. It might even become "Secret Knowledge", without those owning it realising it to become such.

 

Newbies and Experienced Players - two sides of the same coin.

[CrazyScruffy]

I kind of managed to get guild members within my guild to actually like Karagga's Palace - especoially the Newbies to OPs !

 

The more expeienced ones ... Well, it's like running a longer FPs for them.

 

It's *always* Newbies vs. Experienced Ones. Like we had in that fail of Explosive Conflict, it was successfully run by the more experienced guild members. Seemingly that fail was because of the Newbies.

 

( Maybe this means that Newbies should be excluded from OPs in general, cynically put ? )

 

They also failed the Ravagers, I read. I participated there only once, with a PUG fail as well - and that made me hate this OP. I don't r8un it, and I really wonder whether our guild will ever suceed in run ning it - apart from the experienced players, of course.

 

Experienced players are *never* any problem.

 

But some of them in the outer rim might consider Newbies as a problem - which might lead to a closed circle of experienced raiders. And this, knowledge gets forgotten and lost, because it is not told / taught to Newbies anymore. It might even become "Secret Knowledge", without those owning it realising it to become such.

 

Newbies and Experienced Players - two sides of the same coin.

 

lol secret knowledge??? there are so many websites that walks you through the ops, step by step, and teaches you the differences of difficulty setting. no such thing as secret knowledge at this point. and while it is true some pug groups, fail and immediately leave. that doesn't teach them either. Newer players do need perseverance to actually learn. but sadly this day and age is all about immediate gratification, (I'm guessing that's is what Slow is referring to as "modern gamers" more like spoiled brats)

[viernedeuxieme]

Story Mode is meant to let everyone be able to finish it, so it shouldn't be too hard.

 

I don't even do ops much anymore, I'm just telling you the reason. It's boring anyway when you do it 20-30+ times. At least easy ones are much less annoying with pugs and could get quicker reward.

 

Where does it say in 'complex. challenging' and 'requires greater player skill and coordination' that SM is for everyone?

 

Gods as evidenced by its 242 loot drops and mechanics checks was created to form a bridge from SM to HM (barring EV/KP). If you want to pug and run it as fast as an EV/KP SM then you'd better look elsewhere.

 

It's entirely possible that with time more and more casual raiders (eg conquest) will grasp the mechanics and be able to pass them, and establish a sort of 'pug approach' that everyone follows as evidenced by how there are 'pug approaches' to the older SM raids, e.g. the kill order of Garr, Horic, Sunder, Tu'chuk or some variant thereof in Warlords, or bringing unit 1 to 10%, killing unit 2 and then finishing unit 1 on TOS walkers.

 

Of course the fact that SM ops have been nerfed into oblivion has caused a decline in the capability of the average pug and the general public aversion to Gods will probably mean that there will never be an established, homogenised way to complete the op, especially with the IZAX fight.

[Slowpokeking]

lol secret knowledge??? there are so many websites that walks you through the ops, step by step, and teaches you the differences of difficulty setting. no such thing as secret knowledge at this point. and while it is true some pug groups, fail and immediately leave. that doesn't teach them either. Newer players do need perseverance to actually learn. but sadly this day and age is all about immediate gratification, (I'm guessing that's is what Slow is referring to as "modern gamers" more like spoiled brats)

 

Not really, even Dulfy doesn't have the mech for the later GotM bosses, I had to search a while to see where they are, and even after you read the mechanic, you would need some tries to really know about the boss. If the entire team is new, there will be many wipes.

[CrazyScruffy]

Not really, even Dulfy doesn't have the mech for the later GotM bosses, I had to search a while to see where they are, and even after you read the mechanic, you would need some tries to really know about the boss. If the entire team is new, there will be many wipes.

 

you should check the forums, many guides in this form alone (video and written). and yes you will wipe, but that's how you learn. You can't expect going into an op you've never done and not wipe. If that were the case, GOTM would not have been beaten, or any op for that matter (even some FPs)

[Slowpokeking]

Where does it say in 'complex. challenging' and 'requires greater player skill and coordination' that SM is for everyone?

Story mode is not meant to be challenging, there are different modes targeting different people.

 

And in this stage, players with greater skills either have left or didn't want to waste their effort on these old contents, they just want quick run and reward.

 

Gods as evidenced by its 242 loot drops and mechanics checks was created to form a bridge from SM to HM (barring EV/KP). If you want to pug and run it as fast as an EV/KP SM then you'd better look elsewhere.

It's much longer and more difficult than EV/KP HM actually.

 

It's entirely possible that with time more and more casual raiders (eg conquest) will grasp the mechanics and be able to pass them, and establish a sort of 'pug approach' that everyone follows as evidenced by how there are 'pug approaches' to the older SM raids, e.g. the kill order of Garr, Horic, Sunder, Tu'chuk or some variant thereof in Warlords, or bringing unit 1 to 10%, killing unit 2 and then finishing unit 1 on TOS walkers.

Again let me break your bubble, we are NOT getting casual raiders, we are LOSING players, keep losing players that's why we got the server merge and we are still losing players.

 

There are new raiders, but far from enough to carry on. This game took more than 1 year to deliver one complete ops, what kind of raiders would come for this game? I didn't come for raid at all, I came for the story and IP from the beginning.

 

And another thing is that such long hard group content with strict trinity roles are no longer popular, ppl don't want to spend that much time find a group to run it for so long, not anymore, even when SWTOR had firstly come out in 2011, such content had started to go downhill.

 

Of course the fact that SM ops have been nerfed into oblivion has caused a decline in the capability of the average pug and the general public aversion to Gods will probably mean that there will never be an established, homogenised way to complete the op, especially with the IZAX fight.

 

Again, that's not the case, SM has been nerfed because ppl don't want to waste effort on these very old content. If you don't nerf it they are gonna get bored and stop doing them because it's not worth the time and effort. And before the mega nerf we actually have the level advantage to crush most of them, that was a better era. Now it's losing players from both end due to the level boost/no new content.

[Slowpokeking]

you should check the forums, many guides in this form alone (video and written). and yes you will wipe, but that's how you learn. You can't expect going into an op you've never done and not wipe. If that were the case, GOTM would not have been beaten, or any op for that matter (even some FPs)

That's a very bad way to find a guide.

 

Pug don't give you the chance to learn, some ppl even quit when they die.

[viernedeuxieme]

Story mode is not meant to be challenging, there are different modes targeting different people.

Well it says in the game description of story mode ops in group finder the word 'challenging' among other choice words. Or did they really intend ops to just *not* be challenging? Then why did they write that word in there? Are you saying they meant the opposite?

 

And in this stage, players with greater skills either have left or didn't want to waste their effort on these old contents, they just want quick run and reward.

Not necessarily. Sometimes I'm there just because I want to kill things. Or I want to try a new class/spec in a raid setting. Sometimes I co-op my friends into GF runs and we try something new - have a solo healer. No tanks! Leave Horic last. Push Calphayus first (we ended up having to get crystals or something). Beg raid members to stand in stupid so you can fluff EHPS. Or enter the healing challenge as a tank, slap a guard on the Dying Captive and /cheer at your solo healer.

 

It's much longer and more difficult than EV/KP HM actually.

EV/KP HM aren't real HMs - there are literally no additional mechanics apart from the KP puzzle. Any SM raider could run EV/KP HM as easily as they run it on SM. I'd say SM Rav, TOS and maybe even EC are harder as well.

 

Again let me break your bubble, we are NOT getting casual raiders, we are LOSING players, keep losing players that's why we got the server merge and we are still losing players.

There are new raiders, but far from enough to carry on. This game took more than 1 year to deliver one complete ops, what kind of raiders would come for this game? I didn't come for raid at all, I came for the story and IP from the beginning.

You sound like you're still not here for raiding. If that is the case, why are you posting on this thread?

 

I didn't come for raiding either. I came from KOTOR for story and after finishing the expansions, I got into group content. This was only summer last year. I sandbagged my first KP run. (And it was in HM, too.... what was I thinking? But even though my DPS was non-existent I learned how to do the puzzle. My group mates were probably ready to kill themselves by the end of it.)

 

And another thing is that such long hard group content with strict trinity roles are no longer popular, ppl don't want to spend that much time find a group to run it for so long, not anymore, even when SWTOR had firstly come out in 2011, such content had started to go downhill.

I won't deny that poor direction from the very outset has some part to play in all this, and maybe we could argue in favour of a nerf just for the sheer idiocy and ineptitude of the average fleet pug at following mechanics. As I said I was a story player, and I started out as a horrible DPS, any of the horrible DPS you'd see today who have no idea what a rotation is. Everybody and their dog you find in a pug is a poor to average DPS. Or in fact, everybody and their dog is a DPS. No one wants the larger responsibility of being a tank or a healer. Truth is, it's a different dimension - I rolled a tank because I thought they looked ****** sitting there, taking it from the boss. I rolled a healer because I watched one of Dulfy's videos and liked the whack-a-mole business going on. I think people who purely DPS have never considered how different it is to play a support role and how fun it might be even if it's not directly killing the boss. I am still a pretty bad DPS in comparison to the real deal (but I know my rotation at least) since I can't hold a rotation in an ops environment despite some decent parses; in fact I find it easier responding to mechanics and situations arising in raids as a healer or tank.

 

Again, that's not the case, SM has been nerfed because ppl don't want to waste effort on these very old content. If you don't nerf it they are gonna get bored and stop doing them because it's not worth the time and effort. And before the mega nerf we actually have the level advantage to crush most of them, that was a better era. Now it's losing players from both end due to the level boost/no new content.

 

You're missing the whole point of ops here. If you see SM ops as a means to getting credits and XP then you might as well go run heroics and other daily quests. You don't need to get a group for them, they run fast and easy. I have always been raiding because I found it fun to kill things, figure out mechanics, be a part of a team and get achievements and actual real rewards like WINGS. That's what raids are for. If every fight turns into a tank and spank I'm not going to be less bored, I'm going to be even more bored. Achievements are not achievements and rewards are not rewards if you don't earn them just because you solo'd an op synced to 10 levels below you.

 

That being said, I like the difficulty of Gods where it is right now. It feels satisfying bringing down Izax's shield in phase 2. It feels satisfying cleaving a blue orb with Radiance on Scyva. It doesn't feel bothersome just because it's delaying the completion of my weekly.

 

You can definitely argue that I fall in with the minority of players and therefore the minority of opinion. Gods is not too hard. It has mechanics. People need to have brains to clear it. You write an exam to assess a student's capability, not to make sure they score 100% by dumbing it down.

Edited June 19, 2018 by viernedeuxieme

[Toraak]

Hate to say this, however.

 

Even the Devs have said on the streams that SM is for people to see the story. This means SM isn't meant to be a huge challenging, even for those players that haven't mastered their class/spec/role, and that the challenge is supposed to be in HM/NiM Operations.

 

My personal Opinion on GoTM is to much trash, and nobody needs a puzzle between boss fights. Not worth the time for this operation after the 1st time through for SM.

[Slowpokeking]

Well it says in the game description of story mode ops in group finder the word 'challenging' among other choice words. Or did they really intend ops to just *not* be challenging? Then why did they write that word in there? Are you saying they meant the opposite?

They are meant to let players enjoy the story and do daily.

 

Not necessarily. Sometimes I'm there just because I want to kill things. Or I want to try a new class/spec in a raid setting. Sometimes I co-op my friends into GF runs and we try something new - have a solo healer. No tanks! Leave Horic last. Push Calphayus first (we ended up having to get crystals or something). Beg raid members to stand in stupid so you can fluff EHPS. Or enter the healing challenge as a tank, slap a guard on the Dying Captive and /cheer at your solo healer.

Yeah, but ops is group content with strict trinity roles, it needs a lot of ppl to live on. Most of the ppl either get bored of it or had left.

 

 

EV/KP HM aren't real HMs - there are literally no additional mechanics apart from the KP puzzle. Any SM raider could run EV/KP HM as easily as they run it on SM. I'd say SM Rav, TOS and maybe even EC are harder as well.

It doesn't matter, they are a quicker way to provide gear, if you increase the difficulty they would die out as well.

 

Why are they designed like that? Because they are very old and basic raid content.

 

 

You sound like you're still not here for raiding. If that is the case, why are you posting on this thread?

 

I didn't come for raiding either. I came from KOTOR for story and after finishing the expansions, I got into group content. This was only summer last year. I sandbagged my first KP run. (And it was in HM, too.... what was I thinking? But even though my DPS was non-existent I learned how to do the puzzle. My group mates were probably ready to kill themselves by the end of it.)

 

I'm not a big fan of raid, I didn't come to this game to focus on raid. But I care about this game and want to say how to improve it. If I'm a real raider I would have quit this game or at least pick another game to raid because of no new content.

 

I understand you are enjoying it, but raid is group content and we got strict trinity rules, so it's gonna require certain amount of ppl doing it or it will become wasted, and ops usually cost the development the most.

 

 

I won't deny that poor direction from the very outset has some part to play in all this, and maybe we could argue in favour of a nerf just for the sheer idiocy and ineptitude of the average fleet pug at following mechanics. As I said I was a story player, and I started out as a horrible DPS, any of the horrible DPS you'd see today who have no idea what a rotation is. Everybody and their dog you find in a pug is a poor to average DPS. Or in fact, everybody and their dog is a DPS. No one wants the larger responsibility of being a tank or a healer. Truth is, it's a different dimension - I rolled a tank because I thought they looked ****** sitting there, taking it from the boss. I rolled a healer because I watched one of Dulfy's videos and liked the whack-a-mole business going on. I think people who purely DPS have never considered how different it is to play a support role and how fun it might be even if it's not directly killing the boss. I am still a pretty bad DPS in comparison to the real deal (but I know my rotation at least) since I can't hold a rotation in an ops environment despite some decent parses; in fact I find it easier responding to mechanics and situations arising in raids as a healer or tank.

 

Well, that's because the current players are either tired of these very old content or didn't come for raid. I know most of the mechanics but I couldn't change what other ppl do, so I'd rather have it toned down so everyone could get their reward. It's quite pointless to ask ppl to do much on such old content at this stage.

 

 

You're missing the whole point of ops here. If you see SM ops as a means to getting credits and XP then you might as well go run heroics and other daily quests. You don't need to get a group for them, they run fast and easy. I have always been raiding because I found it fun to kill things, figure out mechanics, be a part of a team and get achievements and actual real rewards like WINGS. That's what raids are for. If every fight turns into a tank and spank I'm not going to be less bored, I'm going to be even more bored. Achievements are not achievements and rewards are not rewards if you don't earn them just because you solo'd an op synced to 10 levels below you.

That's exactly what I'm doing, and that's what many ppl have been doing, raid is not something popular now, and SWTOR got so little new content, so most of the ppl don't want to spend so much time on raid anymore.

 

I once wanted the Wing so much and was so mad that they have raised the level of DF, but I'm over it now. What I didn't like about raid is not about hard or not, but you need to have a schedule with at least 7-8 ppl with strict roles. One ppl is missing and everything could not go on, that's not what my gamestyle is, and that's not popular gamestyle anymore.

 

That being said, I like the difficulty of Gods where it is right now. It feels satisfying bringing down Izax's shield in phase 2. It feels satisfying cleaving a blue orb with Radiance on Scyva. It doesn't feel bothersome just because it's delaying the completion of my weekly.

Maybe, but after many many runs most of the ppl will get bored. As for me I don't think bosses other than IZAX need much nerfing, but the length has to be reduced. M&B of the Ravagers need to be killed off.

 

To me, GotM was fun to run the first time, surely cool a couple times later, but doing it weekly? No thanks.

 

You can definitely argue that I fall in with the minority of players and therefore the minority of opinion. Gods is not too hard. It has mechanics. People need to have brains to clear it. You write an exam to assess a student's capability, not to make sure they score 100% by dumbing it down.

 

But it's group content, even if some ppl want to try it without enough ppl doing it it's not gonna happen, so they either stay away from it or let it get nerfed to suit ppl's taste.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Hate to say this, however.

 

Even the Devs have said on the streams that SM is for people to see the story. This means SM isn't meant to be a huge challenging, even for those players that haven't mastered their class/spec/role, and that the challenge is supposed to be in HM/NiM Operations.

 

My personal Opinion on GoTM is to much trash, and nobody needs a puzzle between boss fights. Not worth the time for this operation after the 1st time through for SM.

 

Yes, also other than a few checkpoints, if you die you have to run all the way back which is too long, especially the way before SCYVA.

[merovejec]

Yes, also other than a few checkpoints, if you die you have to run all the way back which is too long, especially the way before SCYVA.

 

You should just ask Devs for Admin acces. You click, daily ops done! Click, pvp weekly done. Click full 248 gear or rather you get the droid as on pts with all gear for free, insta boost to 70 and able to withdraw billions, is that what you want?

[FlameYOL]

Experienced players are *never* any problem.

 

But some of them in the outer rim might consider Newbies as a problem - which might lead to a closed circle of experienced raiders. And this, knowledge gets forgotten and lost, because it is not told / taught to Newbies anymore. It might even become "Secret Knowledge", without those owning it realising it to become such.

 

Newbies and Experienced Players - two sides of the same coin.

 

Well I don't know about you but 9 times out of ten if someone needs explaining to an raid I'll happily do it or someone else who knows as well, in the time I managed to beat Izax with 2 tries there was an experienced player who happily explained what to do in the fight. Most of the times veterans are willing to explain but the newbies also have to be willing to listen and come out and say "I'm not sure I know how to do this", if they treat poorly because of that then yeah they're elitists, but there is no "secret knowledge" most people are willing to share.

[FlameYOL]

So ppl got tired of it, the only reason they are doing them are the reward, if they are too long or hard for pugs compare to the reward, they don't do it. It's that simple.

 

I don't even do ops much these days.

 

Regardless of them being boring or too hard or too long there's still the reward to make it up for it, if we nerf GOTM then we also have to nerf the rewards as well, every SM gives tier 2 legendary gear while GOTM offers Iokath MK-5 gear.

[mrphstar]

You should just ask Devs for Admin acces. You click, daily ops done! Click, pvp weekly done. Click full 248 gear or rather you get the droid as on pts with all gear for free, insta boost to 70 and able to withdraw billions, is that what you want?

 

At this point, i´m pretty sure hes trolling or has much bigger problems with the game itself than just GotM and should take a break.

Anyway, we should stop this discussion since it led us from "Ist GotM too hard" to the old "The game is borring, newbies dont get enough help and we lose players"-circlêjerk.

Edited June 19, 2018 by mrphstar

[Slowpokeking]

Regardless of them being boring or too hard or too long there's still the reward to make it up for it, if we nerf GOTM then we also have to nerf the rewards as well, every SM gives tier 2 legendary gear while GOTM offers Iokath MK-5 gear.

 

Yeah, so ppl just want quick run and reward, if it becomes too long/need much effort it's not worthy since most of them only drop 236 and GotM 242.

 

Like I've said, GotM's main problem is not difficulty, but length.

[Slowpokeking]

At this point, i´m pretty sure hes trolling or has much bigger problems with the game itself than just GotM and should take a break.

Anyway, we should stop this discussion since it led us from "Ist GotM too hard" to the old "The game is borring, newbies dont get enough help and we lose players"-circlêjerk.

 

This game does need a big overhaul to make the existing content relevant, and fix all the bugs.

[CrazyScruffy]

This game does need a big overhaul to make the existing content relevant, and fix all the bugs.

 

relevant or just easy for you?

[Slowpokeking]

relevant or just easy for you?

 

To make more ppl run them.

[CrazyScruffy]

To make more ppl run them.

 

you keep saying to get more ppl to run them. there is no evidence that people don't run them. Just because GOTM isn't ran as frequently as the other ops, does not mean people don't run ops.

[Slowpokeking]

you keep saying to get more ppl to run them. there is no evidence that people don't run them. Just because GOTM isn't ran as frequently as the other ops, does not mean people don't run ops.

 

I didn't start this thread.

 

GotM is the main focus of the 5.0 content, if there are fewer ppl running it than those old content, then it means there are some problem with it.

[CrazyScruffy]

I didn't start this thread.

 

GotM is the main focus of the 5.0 content, if there are fewer ppl running it than those old content, then it means there are some problem with it.

 

never said you started this thread.

 

and the only "problem" is mechanics. but those don't constitute themselves as real problems. as for length, it really isn't that long. (ive been in groups doing other ops on SM that took twice as long. but again we were teaching. as most op players will do) and there are mobs you can easily skip, and those that you can't, as long as you kill in the right order it's a breeze. as for puzzles- the bridge is honestly super easy, just need to make sure to stay in bubble, and not push. can be completed in a minute or two. and then the puzzle before Izax, again is super easy. only takes a minute or two to complete.