It's funny...comparing this game to wow.

[Sanquind]

It just shows very clearly who is a new player in the MMO world and who isn't. Anyone complaining that this game doesn't have X feature that WoW has, or that this game will fail because WoW did it better, has not been playing MMO's for more than...probably 4~5 years.

 

Why? Because every single one of these complaints would have also applied to WoW back in the day. Vanilla WoW was a mess in MANY ways. Launch was TERRIBLE. If the same complainers now, had played WoW beta/launch, WoW would have utterly crashed and burned within 2 months of it's release. That's how 'bad' the game was in the beginning.

 

But no, look! WoW became the most successful MMO in the world, dominating the market for years and years to come. Several MMO's have tried to steal at least a significant portion away from that game, and all failed. Yet it's launch and early months were much worse than how SW:ToR's launch has been so far.

 

Get it through your thick skulls already you pretend 'veteran' players that didn't play for more than 5, maybe 6 years tops! You're not a veteran. You're just one of the many newer players that got used to the incredibly casual/easy style WoW has. Now go back to that game and stop ruining it for everyone else here with your complaints.

[Xcore]

Negative, WoW's Character Responsivness and Gameplay Feedback was the same as it is today. There is an elaborate thread on this subject...

 

Please don't blind yourself by love or hatred for a Game or Company... heaping these misguided praises upon SW:TOR and Bioware does the game "no" good. In fact you impede the potential success that could be accomplished by fixing "key" issues.

[Nakani]

I posted on twitter a while back to David Silverman, saying that while SWTOR had it's glitches and problems, and things that needed to be polished out, but I had no doubt that it would surpass wow in the coming years.

 

(He re-tweeted it, made me happy.)

 

Yes, people complain that that this game doesn't have XYZ, whatever, this is a FRESH LAUNCH. It hasn't had 7 years to become polished in all the little things. But I already enjoy it more then I've ever enjoyed WoW. So.. Nuff said.

[Rayaleith]

Once more. Seven years have nothing to do. This is competition. You do not compete with vanilla wow. You compete with 7-YO wow. And if you think of it, if an aged game can comfortably compete with a new multi-million one, there is something wrong.

 

People are complaining for things THEY ALREADY have from another game. People are not as patient as they were with wow because simply back then wow was far superior than anything else (this is not biased. numbers showed that) and they had NO CHOICE. Now people have a choice and this make them more demanding.

 

I really hope this will work both ways with blizzard as well. If this game succeeds a little, they will realize they are not alone. This will make them less arrogant.

 

So, yes I can compare since I am a consumer and I choose. I may be a bit more patient than others but NO WAY as I were with wow. I have my wow subscription still active and I feel I have the choice. If BW messes things, no fanboi can save it. If they respect their paying customers I will stay here and watch this game evolve and succeed. EASY AS THAT.

[Xcore]

Once more. Seven years have nothing to do. This is competition. You do not compete with vanilla wow. You compete with 7-YO wow. And if you think of it, if an aged game can comfortably compete with a new multi-million one, there is something wrong.

 

People are complaining for things THEY ALREADY have from another game. People are not as patient as they were with wow because simply back then wow was far superior than anything else (this is not biased. numbers showed that) and they had NO CHOICE. Now people have a choice and this make them more demanding.

 

I really hope this will work both ways with blizzard as well. If this game succeeds a little, they will realize they are not alone. This will make them less arrogant.

 

So, yes I can compare since I am a consumer and I choose. I may be a bit more patient than others but NO WAY as I were with wow. I have my wow subscription still active and I feel I have the choice. If BW messes things, no fanboi can save it. If they respect their paying customers I will stay here and watch this game evolve and succeed. EASY AS THAT.

 

Thank you for this response to this incredibly ignorant thread...

 

I actually stop even thinking about this fact as I assume people to be intelligent enough to realize this but alas...

 

 

One of the funny things is that Bioware themselves said that they are comparing SW:TOR to WoW "now" instead of 7 years ago. Proving once more the complete uselessness of threads and opinions like this.

[Wilhelm_Stark]

It just shows very clearly who is a new player in the MMO world and who isn't. Anyone complaining that this game doesn't have X feature that WoW has, or that this game will fail because WoW did it better, has not been playing MMO's for more than...probably 4~5 years.

 

I find it hilarious. Most MMOs out on the market TODAY dont even have a proper battleground(or pvp in general) system, basic UI functions, anything RESEMBLING a dungeon finder, or even normal "dungeons" themselves aside from raids. WoW seriously spoiled people. But I guess thats why everyone plays it, because to be a triple A MMO, you gotta have all the features and details.

 

I think SWTOR got most of it right though. They'll add in the things they forgot eventually.

[Gankdalf_]

I agree, Vanilla wow was a bit of a mess but within 6 months it was an amazing game and with all the community addons it flourished into the best mmo (IMO) that had ever been made which is why it totally destroyed every mmo that has ever been written. It's only the last 2 years that it's lost it's way and gone down hill.

 

For all new MMO's they have NO excuse for releasing out of date UI's horrible instanced worlds and lifeless atmospheres. WOW did all the hard work to show the mmo community what should and should not be included in an mmo. This is why you can NOT compare SWTOR to Vanilla wow, the SWTOR devs know all about the wow customisable UI's using mods, they know all about great Auction houses because of Rift and WOW. They know all about how instanced mmo's fail because of Star trek on-line to name one of many.

 

Yes indeed the devs of any new MMO have NO EXCUSES for releasing mmo's that look and feel like vanilla wow as that was 6 years ago.

[thandr]

What many of them forgets is that some of us actually are here because this game doesn't have some of the features wow has nowadays.

I never liked flying mounts, it killed world pvp for me. I also never liked the LFD tool, the looking for group thingie was ok that they used for awhile in BC but it was hardly anyone who used it anyways.

 

Reason is I am one of those social players, who actually enjoy making friends, finding a good guild and grow within the community.

 

The biggest complain I've seen so far is that "but we don't wanna spam general for group, that's not community"

Well, you might have to do that in the beginning. Prove yourself a good player and people will add you as friends and you will be spammed with invites as soon as you log in.

Damn people are lazy nowadays....

 

I kinda wished they didn't add the Warzones either and would've had a reward system for world pvp. But I can't get everything I want, but this is as close as it gets.

[zacharySW]

Unfortunately for your argument "back in the day" was seven years ago. Within a month of launch WoW had already incorporated the best parts of all the games that had come before it. In other words, WoW launched with nearly everything you could pack into an MMO at the time.

 

Now, seven years later SWTOR launches and is missing things that are fundamental to MMOs today.

 

Seven years ago WoW launched as a cutting edge MMO, today SWTOR launches missing basic components you find in FTP half baked MMOs. Its a good game, but it is severely lacking in many areas. Will it step up? I think it will, but it is not at the place it should be given the time and money that went into it.

[Rayaleith]

What many of them forgets is that some of us actually are here because this game doesn't have some of the features wow has nowadays.

I never liked flying mounts, it killed world pvp for me. I also never liked the LFD tool, the looking for group thingie was ok that they used for awhile in BC but it was hardly anyone who used it anyways.

 

Reason is I am one of those social players, who actually enjoy making friends, finding a good guild and grow within the community.

 

The biggest complain I've seen so far is that "but we don't wanna spam general for group, that's not community"

Well, you might have to do that in the beginning. Prove yourself a good player and people will add you as friends and you will be spammed with invites as soon as you log in.

Damn people are lazy nowadays....

 

I kinda wished they didn't add the Warzones either and would've had a reward system for world pvp. But I can't get everything I want, but this is as close as it gets.

 

I totally respect your opinion and the way you want to play the game.

 

But you do compare the two products, don't you? You do the right thing. You don't like what wow gives you and you look at the competition. This is the way for us consumers to make companies do better games.

[Elog]

But you do compare the two products, don't you? You do the right thing. You don't like what wow gives you and you look at the competition. This is the way for us consumers to make companies do better games.

 

And for alot of people this is an easy choice since WoW is incredibly filled with 'been there done that' for the majority of players.

 

Going back to the other posters in this thread. You are mixing apples and oranges. WoWs responsiveness is a pure quality that SWtoR should try to copy. The server slush fund is a preference and hence not a quality for everyone. A highly customizable UI is not a clear cut positive either. In WoW each PvE encounter is balanced on the fact that everyone will have DBM timers on their screen - I have actually come to dislike that. The list goes on.

 

Responsiveness yes. The rest? Not so sure. As an example - I would cut back on BG look alikes and expand open world PvP instead.

[Mamono]

It just shows very clearly who is a new player in the MMO world and who isn't. Anyone complaining that this game doesn't have X feature that WoW has, or that this game will fail because WoW did it better, has not been playing MMO's for more than...probably 4~5 years.

 

Why? Because every single one of these complaints would have also applied to WoW back in the day. Vanilla WoW was a mess in MANY ways. Launch was TERRIBLE. If the same complainers now, had played WoW beta/launch, WoW would have utterly crashed and burned within 2 months of it's release. That's how 'bad' the game was in the beginning.

 

But no, look! WoW became the most successful MMO in the world, dominating the market for years and years to come. Several MMO's have tried to steal at least a significant portion away from that game, and all failed. Yet it's launch and early months were much worse than how SW:ToR's launch has been so far.

 

Get it through your thick skulls already you pretend 'veteran' players that didn't play for more than 5, maybe 6 years tops! You're not a veteran. You're just one of the many newer players that got used to the incredibly casual/easy style WoW has. Now go back to that game and stop ruining it for everyone else here with your complaints.

Of cores people compare it with WoW. It is the biggest western MMO, it is the biggest competitor to SWToR. You cannot compere a game released today against a game that is 7 years old. But as a fanboy you won’t understand that. You have to compere a game with what’s out there today, not 7 years ago.

There are more people playing WoW then all other western MMO out there put together, of corese they will compare it to WoW then.

And when you compare a game against what is out there today (let me say that again, TODAY and not 7 years ago), you also take into account the dev time on the game and the budget of the game.

 

This is NOT a indi game, you can not treat it as an indi game. It is a Tripple A produc and should be treated as one.

[Stormag]

this game is WOW based, nobody cant reply this ( bgs, dungeons, raids, talents, same combat system: targeting system, cast bars, interrupts, instants etc )

 

so if BW are trying to make a 2004 wow you are doing it wrong UNLESS you add original and nice never seen content from now to the future, but if your going to follow the same steps of wow just adding only fp / ops / wzs and more little ui features this will be a revival of wow but seven years after.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Stormag

[Gankdalf_]

New companies expanding into the world of the MMO fail because they do stupid things like instancing the worlds, they totally fail to recognise that what made wow such a success what the total adventure you got exploring Azeroth, that's what got so many of us hooked back in the day. Blizzard then build on this solid foundation adding all the features they have today, granted they went too far with flying mounts and all that crap but for a soild 4 years WOW used to be amazing.

 

Any new MMo should first and foremost copy the mechanics seamless none instanced worlds that made wow great. Rift tried this but they made a huge misyake by totally copying wow in aevery aspect, we don't need two wow's but we do need a new mmo that has wow's foundations, this could have been it but they blew it bigtime.

[Lolliipopp]

Negative, WoW's Character Responsivness and Gameplay Feedback was the same as it is today. There is an elaborate thread on this subject...

 

Please don't blind yourself by love or hatred for a Game or Company... heaping these misguided praises upon SW:TOR and Bioware does the game "no" good. In fact you impede the potential success that could be accomplished by fixing "key" issues.

 

Okay there is one thing, ONE thing, in all these pointless accusations and all the other crap that is actually true.

[Rayaleith]

Okay there is one thing, ONE thing, in all these pointless accusations and all the other crap that is actually true.

 

You quote something that you do. You are blinded as well, you know. If you cannot stand what people write in these forums you are free to go play. Stop insulting people. And these are not ACCUSATIONS. Man...

[Vgbeee]

I was not aware that this was 2004 and that TOR would be competing with everquest 2, vanilla WoW, and FFXI.

 

It's not like this is 2011 where we have different standards and expectations for the genre. No siree bob.

[princey]

this game is WOW based, nobody cant reply this ( bgs, dungeons, raids, talents, same combat system: targeting system, cast bars, interrupts, instants etc )

 

You talk like WoW pioneered all of those things.

 

BGs - was in DAoC first

Dungeons/raids - was in EQ first

I can't speak to talents, as I don't recall other games having them before WoW, though I could be wrong.

Combat system - was in EQ and to a further extent DAoC. I actually remember liking WoW at first because the combat was exactly the same as DAoCs

Targeting system - mmo standard before wow came along

Cast bars - mmo standard before wow came along

interrupts - before WoW. In DAoC, just hitting a caster interrupted him

instants - before WoW

See where this is going? SWTOR isn't "WOW based". It's a standard MMO.

[VonZimmerman]

Asherons Call comes out its being compared with Everquest.

 

Daoc comes out if being compared to Asherons Call and Everquest

 

Wow comes out its compared to all the other mmo`s of that moment

 

All other mmo`s come out and are compared to Wow

 

TOR comes out and is compared to Wow.

 

 

 

Sorry but to me that is not surprising.

[P-Funk]

Once more. Seven years have nothing to do. This is competition. You do not compete with vanilla wow. You compete with 7-YO wow. And if you think of it, if an aged game can comfortably compete with a new multi-million one, there is something wrong.

 

A very good point... except that they're not competing yet, not really. TOR just launched, a lot of WOW players are still dual-subbing and checking this game out, many haven't tried it yet, there are millions joining this one, many aren't WoW players and never will be.

 

You can't tally up the result until the first year at least is over. TOR is bringing in incredible numbers for an MMO launch. WoW is losing numbers. Arbitrary and subjective comparisons claiming to predict the final outcome of the coming duel which is just getting started now are just that - arbitrary. You can't know what the market will do.

 

EA is a big money maker, BW is a good game developer, these people are betting that you're wrong, or at least that they won't fail like other MMOs have. Thats a lot of money and clout to be betting on. I mean, we're not talking about Cryptic here.

 

TOR is offering a lot for a launch. It is significant to say that TOR has more than WoW at launch because this is a far more complete MMO than just about any other at launch. It has so much thats going to be added in the first 6 months no doubt, and any real MMO player knows to not expect 100% completion or else they're just kidding themselves.

 

Also, MMOs are long term investments. the Star Wars label will almost definitely keep the game alive getting new people as well as keeping others until TOR can build up more of the stuff you guys say is essential to compete with WoW.

 

Most companies that boot a competitor out of the market don't just show up and do it. They start smaller, they attract a base following, and they slowly edge the opponent away. Its not gonna happen overnight and they can't launch with 7 years of content and polish. Its just not possible.

 

TOR does have the disadvantage of facing a massive MMO with 7 years behind it in stuff, but its also a game thats losing subs so that equals things out a bit. Also TOR has new things to offer that WOW never had. So its impossible to see how it will end.

 

The doom speak is absurd. No analyst can tell you the outcome, not even the guys who designed WOW could. I'll bet they're real nervous though.

Edited December 29, 2011 by P-Funk

[SaltAU]

Once more. Seven years have nothing to do. This is competition. You do not compete with vanilla wow. You compete with 7-YO wow. And if you think of it, if an aged game can comfortably compete with a new multi-million one, there is something wrong.

 

This. Very much this.

 

Got to hand it to Blizzard, they don't get knocked of easily if at all. At the end of the day even if TOR gets 'close' to WoW (which it won't) Blizzard already have another MMO in the works that will absolutely floor the competition. Mark my words.

[Mamono]

You talk like WoW pioneered all of those things.

 

BGs - was in DAoC first

Dungeons/raids - was in EQ first

I can't speak to talents, as I don't recall other games having them before WoW, though I could be wrong.

Combat system - was in EQ and to a further extent DAoC. I actually remember liking WoW at first because the combat was exactly the same as DAoCs

Targeting system - mmo standard before wow came along

Cast bars - mmo standard before wow came along

interrupts - before WoW. In DAoC, just hitting a caster interrupted him

instants - before WoW

See where this is going? SWTOR isn't "WOW based". It's a standard MMO.

 

The point is that there are more players playing wow then any all western mmo put together. (more or less)

And yes, they are MMO standards and not "wow standards". Yes we who have played MMO's a few years know this. That is why people complain about the UI and compere it to WoW. Because WoW is basicly the "standard" today.

BW have put in the basic MMO standard in the game but left out all the NEW MMO standards that todays MMO are using or implanting in the game creation.

And even the standard UI that BW have but into SWToR is so bad that you can compere it to games that are 10 years old.

The good part is that BW do KNOW this and have a team working on a new UI, the BAD side is that BW did not do this in Beta when people started to complain about it.

So why did they not do that? They have the manpower, the budget and the time for it.

Waiting to after launch knowing how bad the UI was is a bad desition.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mamono

[Quaade]

Just because we haven't played MMOs prior to WoW it doesn't mean that our opinion and desires for functionality is any less.

 

What we expect is progress, not standstill with bling to hide it, and the VA is nothing more than bling because at the end of the day I'm still killing the same kind of mobs the same way I am in WoW, with the added challenge of a combat system that I want to rage at and throw out the window.

 

WoW progressed from the MMOs before it by sampling what worked in individual games and then combined it into one in a polished state.

 

Now what we expected was that TOR took what it learned from other games, such as WoW, combined it and polished it further. Why? Because that's how progress works. Very few new developments happens as leaps and bounds, instead they build further or is inspired by allready existing items or the lack there of,

 

And all the talk about being spoiled comes across as the Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch

Us poor youngsters, we have it so good because we don't have to walk to school in the freezing cold, uphill both ways and barefooted!

 

Instead we expect more, and progress comes from expectations and desires, by accepting the state of functionality in TOR you might as well tell them "please give me this old crap, I know you will change it eventually."

 

And what if they don't, what happens then? You've pretty much given them carte blanche to never perform any progress on this game what so ever.

[Mamono]

Just because we haven't played MMOs prior to WoW it doesn't mean that our opinion and desires for functionality is any less.

 

What we expect is progress, not standstill with bling to hide it, and the VA is nothing more than bling because at the end of the day I'm still killing the same kind of mobs the same way I am in WoW, with the added challenge of a combat system that I want to rage at and throw out the window.

 

WoW progressed from the MMOs before it by sampling what worked in individual games and then combined it into one in a polished state.

 

Now what we expected was that TOR took what it learned from other games, such as WoW, combined it and polished it further. Why? Because that's how progress works. Very few new developments happens as leaps and bounds, instead they build further or is inspired by allready existing items or the lack there of,

 

And all the talk about being spoiled comes across as the Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch

Us poor youngsters, we have it so good because we don't have to walk to school in the freezing cold, uphill both ways and barefooted!

 

Instead we expect more, and progress comes from expectations and desires, by accepting the state of functionality in TOR you might as well tell them "please give me this old crap, I know you will change it eventually."

 

And what if they don't, what happens then? You've pretty much given them carte blanche to never perform any progress on this game what so ever.

 

Listening to people whining about whiners and say "we did not need it 7 years ago, and we don’t need it today" are like listening to old people complain about the modern society and wishing it was 1908 again where everything was simple and build to last.

They only shout and scream that 70 years ago they could live on bred and water, and so should people live today too.

[Koyi_Aldira]

Unfortunately for your argument "back in the day" was seven years ago. Within a month of launch WoW had already incorporated the best parts of all the games that had come before it. In other words, WoW launched with nearly everything you could pack into an MMO at the time.

 

Now, seven years later SWTOR launches and is missing things that are fundamental to MMOs today.

 

Seven years ago WoW launched as a cutting edge MMO, today SWTOR launches missing basic components you find in FTP half baked MMOs. Its a good game, but it is severely lacking in many areas. Will it step up? I think it will, but it is not at the place it should be given the time and money that went into it.

 

What one calls "Fundamentals" of MMO's are very opinionated. Some will call LFG and macros a MUST NEED for MMO's, where others will say they are not. Every game that is able to receive patches is going to release with bare essentials and many bugs, one because of demand, two because of the seasonal opportunities.

 

Has BW made a few keen mistakes for the MMO player base? Of course they have. I believe that character reaction should be a high priority. I also think that once I kill one enemy in a group of five, I shouldn't auto-target my companion, something that happens way too often. I also think that they should have gotten rid of the instances they have going on. Do these bother me enough to say that the game is bad? Not at all.

 

Where it's at now? We only have ourselves as Beta testers to blame. Sure, some issues may have been brought up, but how many actually played the Beta they were invited to play for what it was meant for? Mine was strictly to see how much the server was able to take, but it still popped up the "Any issues" box. How many people just selected Excellent on everything and continued to play? How many threads were made in the forums during EGA about how player A was mad 'cause they couldn't read that it said "Up to five days"? How many threads were made about Queue times? How many threads are now made about how it should have followed WoW's example, only to be a rant about how the game sucks and the player is going to cancel their sub? All these flood the board and make it hard to find ANY actual bug reporting threads.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Koyi_Aldira