Conquest: My Second Impressions

[Savej]

People were down. We've been hit lately with CXP, the sparsest content release cadence in years, very lacklustre/brief companion returns, stressful merges (not for me personally, but merges are stressful for many), very slow road maps, lots of unanswered questions about the future... Why target the most dedicated/active players left in the game and nerf one of their activities so thoroughly? Best case BW didn't know they were nerfing the heck out of people playing alts but that isn't a good case. This is a real palms up, shoulders hunched head-shaker. I feel like I'm stuck rooting for the pro baseball team that's playing without a 3rd baseman and only two outfielders.

[Quraswren]

Yeah the Makeb Conquest goal points to Faction Specific "Staged" quests that were removed from the game, IIRC, one of the patches just prior to Knights of the Fallen Empire.

 

Yup, that's right the March 2018 Conquest revamp references quests that were removed around October 2015.

 

How's that for a whole new level of incompetence.

 

All The Best

 

Thats biowares attention to detail summed up real nice.

[MacCleoud]

There were serious issues with the old conquest system as well. Don't act like there weren't. We went about four months having to put in tickets to get our rewards and titles. Each and every server had their guild alliances and people complained about people coming in, getting points, then leaving a guild. People games the system this way to give the huge guilds the ability to exceed the natural limit and the guild (1000).

 

They have totally rebuilt it. It is not the same as it was before. It isn't garbage. It isn't where it needed to be either, by any means.

 

They took away planetary bonuses completely. This was an integral part of what planet we went for as a guild. My guild wasn't big enough, or maybe active enough, to hit the top ten very often, so we just picked the planet easier to get the personal goal on. Now......there isn't one. This does need to be looked at. The bonuses are what allowed us to really use Alts. (Aside from not being limited to one per legacy on things). The personal goal was dropped by 25% but all the objectives were dropped by 25-50% before the loss of planetary bonuses.

 

I am not saying not to complain, but I AM saying this new system is here to stay. Give good feedback not hate. To those who are quitting because of these, you quitting will do no good to fix the problem. If you have had enough, I understand. But don't leave without trying to get things better. The same thing happened with GC. It still isn't perfect, but it is not too bad (the gold drop rate at 300 still needs to be increased...)

 

 

The only way to make things better is to stay and "fight" for what you want.

[Toraak]

after trying this weeks patch. POINTS ARE STILL WAY TO LOW. TO MANY ONCE AND DONE OBJECTIVES!!!

 

1) Star Fighter Conquer the skies: needs to be a MINIMUM of 500 for participating in a match. 213 is a joke.

 

2) The daily/weeklies should have been PER CHARACTER. it's not like you can do them more then once per character anyway.

 

3) Warzone The Killing Fields: repeatable indefinitely. Minimum of 500 points each time completed.

 

4) Star Fighter Critical Mission: Should be once per character

 

5) Warzone Critical mission: Should be once per character

 

6) Operation Critical Mission: Should be once per character per day. (If you need to, make the weeklies require killing every boss in the operation to stop people from doing last boss lockouts.)

 

7) Group Finder Flashpoint: should be a minimum of 500 points.

 

8) Group Finder Uprisings: Should be at least 500 points

 

9) Flashpoint Critical Mission: Should be once per character.

 

10) Crafting should be REVERTED to prior to 5.8.

 

11) Put back the planetary bonus's. This was big for getting us to do conquest on alts.

 

Here's my thoughts I had put in the upcoming changes post. My 2nd impressions is this is a bad april fool's joke from BW.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Toraak

[Quraswren]

There were serious issues with the old conquest system as well. Don't act like there weren't. We went about four months having to put in tickets to get our rewards and titles. Each and every server had their guild alliances and people complained about people coming in, getting points, then leaving a guild. People games the system this way to give the huge guilds the ability to exceed the natural limit and the guild (1000).

 

There were a few minor issues but fix the issues.

 

You don't destroy the whole car just to fix AC and rotate the tires nor should the entire conquest system be screwed up for months to a year just to fix the few minor issue it had when the rest worked so well.

 

They have totally rebuilt it.

Which was their first mistake. Thinking it needed to be rebuild and changed so much.

 

It isn't garbage.

going to have to disagree with you here.

 

It isn't where it needed to be either, by any means.

As in, no where even close.

 

I AM saying this new system is here to stay.

And thats a problem.

 

The only way to make things better is to stay and "fight" for what you want.

Not when it comes to companies like bioware and especially ea.

 

You have to hit them where it hurts and thats in the wallet. Sure you might get changes in a years time but even then we learned they still can't fix things like GC or are just unwilling to. Conquest will be no different. You want to make a real change? Hit them in the wallet.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Quraswren

[DarthSpuds]

Well, logged into SWTOR, spent 20 mins stood in my SH deciding what to do.

Spent 10 mins doing a couple of H2+ Missions, that don't count for Conquest.

Decided I couldn't be bothered.

Went to play ESO instead.

 

Other games must be loving SWTOR Patch 5.8 - best thing that has happened to them since Command Levels.

Well done Bioware.

 

All The Best

[TUXs]

Best case BW didn't know they were nerfing the heck out of people playing alts but that isn't a good case.

To me, this is the most likely scenario. They saw complaints about "last boss lockouts" and "crafting dominates conquests", but they never bothered to slow down and look at why those were issues...they weren't. Both of those activities, when being used by a guild, created more fun than Bioware has released in the past 3-years. Making a push for a planet, when everyone in a guild is trying to help get a win, have been some of the most memorable and fun moments I have ever had in this game.

 

Knowing how much work players put in to gather resources to make a push during a crafting week is MIND BLOWING!

[Kurj]

Why can't they just put a CQ eligibility cooldown after you change guilds? Make it 1 week. Wouldn't that eliminate all of their concerns about guild-swapping?

[ShadowGovernator]

Hey guys,

 

Quick update. We pushed out a real toxic turd of a conquest system in 5.8 – and our two interns have been working on polishing it somewhat since then – unfortunately they have only been using spit so it’s not real shiny.

We could roll it back or continue to monitor people leaving the game in protest.

 

We will keep monitoring.

 

- Thanks everyone!

[Keta]

Well, logged into SWTOR, spent 20 mins stood in my SH deciding what to do.

Spent 10 mins doing a couple of H2+ Missions, that don't count for Conquest.

Decided I couldn't be bothered.

Went to play ESO instead.

 

Other games must be loving SWTOR Patch 5.8 - best thing that has happened to them since Command Levels.

Well done Bioware.

 

All The Best

 

hmmm.... the world is coming to an end, I agree with Spuds -- and not for the first time in this thread.

 

In the past 24 hours: I ran the heroic Ziost series on one character then logged out. About 30 minutes total (I stopped playing to make coffee). I reinstalled ESO on my computer, renewed my plus "subscription" and purchased the upcoming expansion. Yes, some games actually have those things. Then I rolled a new character in ESO so I could relearn the interface.

[Lhancelot]

Hey guys,

 

Quick update. We pushed out a real toxic turd of a conquest system in 5.8 – and our two interns have been working on polishing it somewhat since then – unfortunately they have only been using spit so it’s not real shiny.

We could roll it back or continue to monitor people leaving the game in protest.

 

We will keep monitoring.

 

- Thanks everyone!

 

Rofl, sadly that's the truth.

 

Love the "Thanks everyone!" On point.

[TUXs]

I reinstalled ESO on my computer, renewed my plus "subscription" and purchased the upcoming expansion. Yes, some games actually have those things. Then I rolled a new character in ESO so I could relearn the interface.

Yeah, but you haven't gotten an update to that game in like 2-years right? Because no MMO company can update their game AND make an expansion...right?? It takes too long...right???

[DarthSpuds]

Yeah, but you haven't gotten an update to that game in like 2-years right? Because no MMO company can update their game AND make an expansion...right?? It takes too long...right???

 

LOL, yeah, that was it.

 

All The Best

[CyorReco]

The reason for ruining the conquest system, is because they wanted to make acquiring the companion compendium to be sufficiently challenging (a grind).

 

>All you had to do devs was leave everything in place and make a secondary conquest goal or threshold to get compendium vendor access. 20k for completing personal conquest goal and a compendium conquest goal of say something 50k, 75k per toon..... or higher if it's per legacy . You get to make it grindy for the compendium and we get to keep something that encourages group interaction.

 

We we're told that there needed to be a credit sink, yet you're increasing the conquest credit rewards for medium and large guilds. Now less people will be completing conquest and on fewer toons, so maybe you're achieving that goal. You **could have just reduced credit conquest rewards and in lieu given some alliance crates (also reducing credits awarded from crates as well ) as a reward.* * In any case, other credit reductions on missions and loot drops, along with the increase in GTN comish and new decos, would have accomplished this goal

 

To differentiate rewards for small, medium and large guilds, 4 crates for small guilds, 8 for medium and 12 for large guilds. Which would also help people leveling companions, while not adding any credits to the economy.

Edited March 28, 2018 by CyorReco

[Toraak]

The reason for ruining the conquest system, is because they wanted to make acquiring the companion compendium to be sufficiently challenging (a grind).

 

>All you had to do devs was leave everything in place and make a secondary conquest goal or threshold to get compendium vendor access. 20000 for completing personal conquest goal and a compendium compendium conquest goal of say something 50k, 75k per toon..... or higher if it's per legacy . You get to make it grindy for the compendium and we get to keep something that encourages group interaction.

 

We we're told that there needed to be a credit sink, yet you're increasing the conquest credit rewards for medium and large guilds. Now less people will be completing conquest and on fewer toons, so maybe you're achieving that goal. You **could have just reduced credit conquest rewards and in lieu given some alliance crates (also reducing credits awarded from crates as well ) as a reward.* * In any case, other credit reductions on missions and loot drops, along with the increase in GTN comish and new decos, would have accomplished this goal

 

To differentiate rewards for small, medium and large guilds, 4 crates for small guilds, 8 for medium and 12 for large guilds. Which would also help people leveling companions, while not adding any credits to the economy.

 

If that was the reasoning, then it's meaningless. I can just use all the companion gifts I've stockpiled on my legacy for 0 credits being used as part of a credit sink.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Toraak

[PorsaLindahl]

hmmm.... the world is coming to an end, I agree with Spuds -- and not for the first time in this thread.

 

In the past 24 hours: I ran the heroic Ziost series on one character then logged out. About 30 minutes total (I stopped playing to make coffee). I reinstalled ESO on my computer, renewed my plus "subscription" and purchased the upcoming expansion. Yes, some games actually have those things. Then I rolled a new character in ESO so I could relearn the interface.

 

So you got that pretty new kitty cat mount. Nice.

[inoutallabout]

Yup.

 

Is this a joke? Just horrible.

[inoutallabout]

Yeah, but you haven't gotten an update to that game in like 2-years right? Because no MMO company can update their game AND make an expansion...right?? It takes too long...right???

 

Developers at Bioware who have left straight up said that too much money sits at the top with EA and not enough comes down to fund ongoing support and development. It's just how it goes.

[Seelvir]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

 

What they knew going into it, is that everyone would revile these changes. Casuals gotta put in a little more effort to get anything in, and in the mindset of casuals, a little more effort is a big deal, because they don't budget a great dale of time to this game, or to gaming at all perhaps. And the CQ GODS were really gonna hate it.

 

But in the end, the CQ GODS will still dominate, just instead of dominating literally 100:1, now it's 2:1. That's still domination. It just feels less dominating, and to hardcore players of any stripe, that hits where it hurts. Winning isn't necessarily the only goal, they're always gonna win. It's about winning BIG. And now the definition of a big win is a lot smaller than it was.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

 

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

 

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

 

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Seelvir

[Kurj]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

 

What they knew going into it, is that everyone would revile these changes. Casuals gotta put in a little more effort to get anything in, and in the mindset of casuals, a little more effort is a big deal, because they don't budget a great dale of time to this game, or to gaming at all perhaps. And the CQ GODS were really gonna hate it.

 

But in the end, the CQ GODS will still dominate, just instead of dominating literally 100:1, now it's 2:1. That's still domination. It just feels less dominating, and to hardcore players of any stripe, that hits where it hurts. Winning isn't necessarily the only goal, they're always gonna win. It's about winning BIG. And now the definition of a big win is a lot smaller than it was.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

 

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

 

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

 

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

 

That is a great post. +1

[Toraak]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

 

What they knew going into it, is that everyone would revile these changes. Casuals gotta put in a little more effort to get anything in, and in the mindset of casuals, a little more effort is a big deal, because they don't budget a great dale of time to this game, or to gaming at all perhaps. And the CQ GODS were really gonna hate it.

 

But in the end, the CQ GODS will still dominate, just instead of dominating literally 100:1, now it's 2:1. That's still domination. It just feels less dominating, and to hardcore players of any stripe, that hits where it hurts. Winning isn't necessarily the only goal, they're always gonna win. It's about winning BIG. And now the definition of a big win is a lot smaller than it was.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

 

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

 

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

 

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

 

Except for one thing. The people that got 1-2 toons conquest in the past will realize that their is no point in putting 10 times more effort to get Conquest now. Thus will never waste time doing it. I know many people got conquest purely from flying GSF matches throughout the week. With the conquest the way it is now, we'd need 35.21 matches per week. This isn't just a little work, that's a lot of time spent. (not to mention that assumes there is the Weekly for 7500 available that week). If there is no Weekly for 7500 for one character, it'll take 70.42 match to get conquest on ONE character in a week. I know I will never intentionally try for conquest as it is, and the changes I suggested earlier in this post are a must if BW even wants my subscription. Since they botched up conquest I've already seen a DRASTIC change in the length of GSF queue (Tripling if not more the queu length).

Edited March 28, 2018 by Toraak

[Lhancelot]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

 

What they knew going into it, is that everyone would revile these changes. Casuals gotta put in a little more effort to get anything in, and in the mindset of casuals, a little more effort is a big deal, because they don't budget a great dale of time to this game, or to gaming at all perhaps. And the CQ GODS were really gonna hate it.

 

But in the end, the CQ GODS will still dominate, just instead of dominating literally 100:1, now it's 2:1. That's still domination. It just feels less dominating, and to hardcore players of any stripe, that hits where it hurts. Winning isn't necessarily the only goal, they're always gonna win. It's about winning BIG. And now the definition of a big win is a lot smaller than it was.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

 

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

 

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

 

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

 

If they succeeded in meeting their personal design goals for the game, is it worth it when it causes the majority of players to not play as much or even quit?

 

I have only read one half sensible post defending the changes for conquest, that's yours.

 

Even with the eloquence presented in your argument, the fact remains if casuals hate the new system and so do the hardcore, exactly how is this change for the better? Aren't games played by paying consumers?

 

Personal design goals of a developer for a game mean nothing if the design is found to be unenjoyable, a chore and rejected by players as a whole. This means the design is a failure.

 

I agree with the assessment though, it was clearly a design goal of someone, just as the revamped RNG crate gearing system was too.

 

Just as the new gearing system was panned when it rolled out, so has been this new conquest system. They will not roll it back, and they will push forward despite the tons feedback from players who do not like it.

 

Don't like it? Too bad. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming, though!

[PorsaLindahl]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

And that data is going to be skewed because a lot of people have already:

1. Cancelled
   
2. Not participating
   

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships.

Failed. The casual player will struggle to make the goals, if not on one character, then on 2 or 3. When they were able to get 3+ under the old system.

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

Some people aren't able to spend more time in game. Fail.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

Those guilds that were hitting those tens of millions in the first few hours are those that frontloaded crafting. Not because they were doing more FP's, Ops, PvP, etc. than anyone else.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

If players aren't participating, then how are they going to get the guild level reward at a frequency they never did before?

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

We are entitled to a finished product. Not a half-baked beta version.

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

That's their major problem. And time is against them in this matter.

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

Outcry against a broken system will get things changed if they're smart. And no matter how much I rib them about being idiotic or whatever, they have to have some modicum of intelligence to be in their positions.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

While the old system wasn't perfect, by a long shot, it only need a few tweaks, here and there to make it better. This Conquest version 2.0 is a disaster.

[aerockyul]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

They wanted to dial it in so that casual players who previously might have hit their personal goal on 1 or 2 toons per week with very little effort ... now those players' same level of "very littke" effort will only get them about 80% of the way to their personal goal ... so now they'll be a little more vested in logging in a little bit more to really hit that goal, and now they're going to feel a lot more vested in that score, and have spent more time in-game.

 

At the same time, they needed to dial it in so that the KILLER COMPETITIVE CQ GODS basically can't hit a personal goal on anything more than 2 toons, max. And because so much of it is tied to legacy, they're gonna have to pick which one guild they want to get the lion's share of their points. They can no longer distribute their individual effort of 1,000,000 points per week across three guild-branches of a singular mega guild.

 

What they knew going into it, is that everyone would revile these changes. Casuals gotta put in a little more effort to get anything in, and in the mindset of casuals, a little more effort is a big deal, because they don't budget a great dale of time to this game, or to gaming at all perhaps. And the CQ GODS were really gonna hate it.

 

But in the end, the CQ GODS will still dominate, just instead of dominating literally 100:1, now it's 2:1. That's still domination. It just feels less dominating, and to hardcore players of any stripe, that hits where it hurts. Winning isn't necessarily the only goal, they're always gonna win. It's about winning BIG. And now the definition of a big win is a lot smaller than it was.

 

So they knew everyone was gonna hate it. But they suspect that in time, as the hardcore players continue to dominate, they'll eventually stop theirb itching, and the as the casual players realize they're getting a lot more total reward than they ever did before, because now they're getting the GUILD-LEVEL reward at a frequency they never did before, they will also stop theirb itching. People will still always grumble for the old days, while simultaneously still playing as much as they did before, if not more, and being overall happier with the outcomes.

 

Anyway, that's the design goal in the heads of the development team, if I'm not mistaken to assume such strategic level thinking at BWA. But no plan survives contact with an entitled and whiney playerbase, so they're in wait-and-see mode at the moment.

 

The problem is that devs almost always know better than the players, and that kind of god-mode feeling sometimes inspires the devs to go too far afield, ala Galactic Command 1.0. Time will tell if these CQ changes are dialed in right, or not.

 

But all your wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going change anything. Only your actual level of participation will.

 

To that end, I'm not quitting the game or anything as melodramatic as that, but count me among those players who simply stopped participating. In the old system, I very easily and casually hit the personal goal on 2-3 characters every week, and I feel insulted at how hard I'll have to work now to even get 1 done. The same investment I put into 2-3 characters per week now won't even get me half way to one. So I'm simply not participating at all.

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

 

Other than peddling a couple of I-hope-to-be-wrong conspiracy theories, this is largely how I've felt about the changes. I've been reading almost all the threads, observing, and I think a lot of what you say here is true. I'm neutral on the changes because I typically did conquest on 1-2 toons, just like I plan to do now (and it's easily attainable for me, as a not-100%-Solo-only player (the Ops rewards do a lot to mitigate the grind a lot of people are complaining about--you plan to solo run 60 of the same FP?? That's insane, it was not intended that way, you only have yourself to blame if that's how you choose to "conquest").

I REALLY like that we can get the guild rewards even if we don't finish in the top-10. Even small guilds with minimal effort can easily get this. (I'm sorry for those solo-guilding and solo-conquesting, yes, it's not great for you, but were you expecting them to somehow put you on the same level as a proper conquest guild?)

 

Do I want them to fix the bugs? Yes (Makeb, the Ilum bosses, etc)

 

Do I want the GUI to be more intuitive? Yes

 

Do I want the point totals to be better for some of the more solo among us? Yes (but I don't believe you should get the same rewards as people who put the effort into doing bigger, more group-oriented content)

 

Total Galactic War should be all the planets (or most) and not just 3.

 

There should be a yield-locking mechanism for each tier. Something like 1-250 members locked to small or higher, 250 to 500 (the old cap) locked to medium or higher, and 500+ locked to high only. It's not a great look when one of the big stated goals was to give the little guy a chance to win titles--doesn't look so great when the same giant guilds are just invading the small and medium tiers when they are easily clearing millions of points, even during non-crafting weeks. I think the devs have never once looked at a conquest leader board on any of the servers, ever.

 

Also, related to the tiers--the rewards need to be much better. That is something they really should look at and get creative with. Increasing the quantities of things most of the players don't want/need/can use is not "more rewarding"

 

Making each week RNG is a horrible idea if it is 100%. It should be RNG within the number of conquest weeks in a cycle. I can't wait for the same conquest three times in a row, and never seeing about five of them, ever.

 

I'm sure there are other issues, but a lot of that can be ironed out, and probably will be.

I don't mean to ridicule the opinions of the conquerors who have been complaining for the last two weeks--the changes have not been small, and Bioware did not do a great job communicating all the changes.

 

But ironically, being on these boards for years, almost every change was connected to a lot of suggestions/criticisms right here in these boards, and the same people are loudly crying now that they want it back to the "broken" (in their own words) system we had before. The solutions were not perfect at first, and probably won't be for a while, but it's a little unbelievable that so soon after CXP people aren't/weren't expecting this.

 

I don't know. I'm easily pleased, probably, or at worst, neutral on a lot of things that get the forum-world up in arms. I do and will want to brandish the pitchforks when they do horrible companion returns though. To each their own.

Edited March 28, 2018 by aerockyul

[Morteistno]

This post may sound cynical, but I'm being completely real here.

 

All your points about why you hate this new system is exactly the POINT of the change to the system. You're not convincing Keith or anyone else there at BWA to revert the changes, because everything you hate about it is exactly what their design goal was. This is why they're "waiting for additional feedback" before they take action on the changes you all hate the most. They need a few weeks worth of data to see if the changes have the desired impact on gameplay, which, you may be surprised to learn, is not to drive players away, but rather the opposite.

 

Basically, the devs had one overarching goal the CQ revamp: Flatten the curve between effort and reward.

 

In short, they wanted a casual level of commitment to CQ to bring an individual player, and smaller casual guilds, closer to realizing their dreams with their flagships. They also wanted to nerf, or perhaps annihilate, the ability of the upper 1% of players on the effort scale to completely dominate the system on the rewards end. Meaning, players who routinely hit the personal goal on 10 characters, or who routinely knock out 150k points on a single toon, and all the players who crafted their way to millions of points. They wanted to nullify those players. Being "not one of those players" myself, I can't say I hate this goal.

 

...

 

I think they need to dial the point values in some different directions. But even though I think their first shot missed, if I'm not mistaken about their target, then count me among the players happy that they s--tcanned the old system, and eager for them to perfect the new system.

 

You may mor may not be correct on their intentions, However I have a few comments to make:

 

I think that everyone has already established that in the current system everyone who is in a guild that regularly made the top 10 loses. (And I would venture that almost everyone who is interested in conquest is in one of these guilds. At least with an alt). They will get much less rewards (as a guild) than before due to the fact that much less charactes in the guild will make their personal score.

 

Now where this leave the players that in your example could not make top 10 before but still wanted a guild flagship with expansions? At first glance they benefit marginally as they no longer need to be in the top 10 (keep in mind however that if the objectives scores and repeatability were not nerfed into the ground this would also have been the case - the only thing that has an effect here is the fact that they just need to meet the small guild cap.

 

However similar to anyone else they will struggle hard to make the personal cap which also drives the guild reward on many toons, so the overall number of encryptions (what this is supposedly about) the small guild will get is very low. (still better than zero though. With the old objectives and scores and just having to meet the cap also the small guilds would benefit much more as they also would have a much easier time on meeting the personal caps!)

 

Now add to this the following:

 

- the overall influx of encryptions in the game is much lower than before as much less people / alts are making the cap. So the offer of encryptions for those who still need them will overall steeply decline and ergo become much more expensive on fi the GTN. Still so sure the small guild is benefitting from this? As far as I know the encryptions a non top 10 guild can hope to get every week will take them ansolutely forever to build a flagship unless they will supplement it with buying encryptions of the GTN... Encryptions which will become much more expensive than they were...

 

- Group content will be harder to achieve as well. Face it the conquest minded people will have much less time to play alts or typical group activities. Typically I would do PVP and queue for Master Flashpoints even the occasional uprising with many alts. This week I did one lockout run, a little pvp and just enough FP's to get the weekly on a single char, the rest I solo'd doing the stupid weeklies that I had done over and over again already.

 

I did not even log in my republic characters at all. I.e. I queued for much much less group content than ever before. Less people queuing = also much less pops for these small guilds. Still convinced this is working out to your advantage?

 

Face it, if they wanted to help the small non top 10 guilds the only thing you needed to do was remove the top 10 requirement and set an arbitrary cap to reach. Everything else they did in lowering scores for group repeatable content (operations, pvp, gsf, flashpoints, introducing much more legacy lockouts and so on is not benefitting anyone, If you think this gives you or a player like you any advantage you are dead wrong.

 

The top 10 is meaningless now and the number 1 spot and planetary title is still as out of reach for the guild type you describe as ever before. Yes you get potentially a token number of encryptions now but overall also encryptions are going to be much much harder to come by.

 

I.e. even if you are correct on Bioware's intentions they still achieved the opposite of it in my opinion.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Morteistno