Level the playing field on conquests: end the operation last-boss-lockout daisy chain

[AlrikFassbauer]

Instead of coming on forums to QQ about it, there is nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. This is WAI, and not an exploit.

 

Is it WAI that those who know it don't tell about it those who don't know it ?

[TUXs]

Is it WAI that those who know it don't tell about it those who don't know it ?

What didn't you know exactly? That you get Conquest credit for FINISHING the Op? That you could log out on the final boss? That you can't reset an Op once you've started it and you're forced to start on the boss you left off on?

 

My answer is YES...it's WAI that those who don't care to know how the system works, don't know how the system works. I don't think it's on Bioware to show anyone shortcuts.

[LordTurin]

Is it WAI that those who know it don't tell about it those who don't know it ?

 

I don't think anyone is hiding how it works:

 

1. Find 7 friends

2. Do an op until the last boss

3. Save a lockout on one character, finish as an alt

4. Form new group, zone everyone in, swap to an alt, queue in progress and join.

5. Repeat step 4 as many times as desired/alts you have

6. profit (sort of, pvp is actually still a little faster if you get 8 people in the guild to do it at once and doesn't have a cap based on alts) (stuff like Dread War where it gives 10 bazillion points to dp/df for infinity excepted).

[Kyrra_T]

Guilds putting up MILLIONS of points are usually doing it via crafting on every alt they have, and ones they create just for Conquest points...it's not final boss lockouts. Crafting, imo, is what skews Conquests out of proportion - the simple fact that none of those alts needs to even be played during Conquests to rack up millions of points is why guilds can post those kinds of numbers.

 

I'm not suggesting crafting is easy or cheap...it's not...players invest weeks to months into gathering mats for Conquest pushes, it's not at all "fun"...these players do "work" for those points...those alts are played extensively beforehand to gather the mats necessary to make an impact, but they're not "played" during Conquest weeks except to do the actual crafting, which can be done offline.

 

It's not last boss lockouts...not at all...those points are minimal compared to what players are putting up while crafting is happening on other toons that aren't even logged in.

 

This is where it gets complicated to me...the guilds that put up MILLIONS of points, DO work their arses off for those points...they spend weeks and months gathering what's needed to make that type of impact...but I also don't think it's fair that an offline activity can net so much more than IN-GAME activities during the actual Conquest week. It's a hard problem to solve imo...but it sure as hell has very little to do with last boss lockouts.

 

It is true that you don't 'have' to play the characters you are crafting on but nothing is stopping you from playing on them either. I tend to craft on the classes I also play on so yeah I do heroics, ops, etc on those characters while crafting. If it is a group activity you don't need the comps who are currently crafting.

 

Last week was a crafting week. I used the mats that I gather daily (30 mins or so each day, many in my guild do much more daily, pre crafted the assembly components etc on a daily basis every week, regardless of conquest that week.), ran Ops on multiple characters, ran some flashpoints, did some pvp... all of that is quite possible 'while' crafting. I know you know this though. Crafting isn't necessarily offline though it certainly can be. I also ran characters on both pub and imp side doing all these things, it honestly really is a pretty busy week if you are in a crafting guild. The thing is the mats gathering really never stops, that is an every week thing, and I'm not sure that folks who don't enjoy crafting realize this.

[PennyAnn]

Crafting isn't necessarily offline though it certainly can be.

 

The issue is though, and you do not really acknowledge this, is that crafting is the ONLY way you can earn conquest objective points while not even being logged in. You can be earning conquest points on as many characters as you have, simultaneously. It's just a matter of logging them in to "cash in" those points that you were earning while NOT online. If you could only earn points by being online while you crafted conquest objective items, it would change the picture drastically (not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea, mind you).

 

But being able to earn points while NOT playing the game is something that isn't quite right. Yes, of course you CAN play the game at the same time... but even if you do, that doesn't account for the 15 or 30 or 100 characters you have earning points offline while you play that one.

[Kyrra_T]

The issue is though, and you do not really acknowledge this, is that crafting is the ONLY way you can earn conquest objective points while not even being logged in. You can be earning conquest points on as many characters as you have, simultaneously. It's just a matter of logging them in to "cash in" those points that you were earning while NOT online. If you could only earn points by being online while you crafted conquest objective items, it would change the picture drastically (not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea, mind you).

 

But being able to earn points while NOT playing the game is something that isn't quite right. Yes, of course you CAN play the game at the same time... but even if you do, that doesn't account for the 15 or 30 or 100 characters you have earning points offline while you play that one.

 

True that. The problem really is if crafting comes completely out of conquest there is absolutely no reason to craft at all other than for augments. Huge money sink removed from the game. I'd have a ton of coin available for me to spend on the gtn or whatnot again though.

[LordTurin]

True that. The problem really is if crafting comes completely out of conquest there is absolutely no reason to craft at all other than for augments. Huge money sink removed from the game. I'd have a ton of coin available for me to spend on the gtn or whatnot again though.

 

Honestly, I'm really bummed they are getting rid of bonuses. The way it's worked for the last couple years is guilds needed to be well rounded to win conquest. Want to win Oricon? You better do Ops. Want to win during Trade Emporium? Better craft. Want to win Tatooibe? Better PvP. Want to win Nar Shadda? Hope you like heroics. A lot of that is gonna go away now.

[Kyrra_T]

Honestly, I'm really bummed they are getting rid of bonuses. The way it's worked for the last couple years is guilds needed to be well rounded to win conquest. Want to win Oricon? You better do Ops. Want to win during Trade Emporium? Better craft. Want to win Tatooibe? Better PvP. Want to win Nar Shadda? Hope you like heroics. A lot of that is gonna go away now.

 

Yup. Everything the same. No need to be able to do the focused objective of the week anymore. Guess that's what they want though.

 

And hey tons more inflation with the extra money in the game. All those white mats I don't have to buy. Only need to get one companion to 50 influence, no more eight companions to 50. So I don't need to buy that companion coin on the vendor. Un-used money sink there.

 

Huge savings of coin for me, all of that staying right there in the economy. Of course the prices on things might be driven up any farther but hey, Bioware doesn't think we need more coin sinks right?

[TUXs]

It is true that you don't 'have' to play the characters you are crafting on but nothing is stopping you from playing on them either. I tend to craft on the classes I also play on so yeah I do heroics, ops, etc on those characters while crafting. If it is a group activity you don't need the comps who are currently crafting.

 

Last week was a crafting week. I used the mats that I gather daily (30 mins or so each day, many in my guild do much more daily, pre crafted the assembly components etc on a daily basis every week, regardless of conquest that week.), ran Ops on multiple characters, ran some flashpoints, did some pvp... all of that is quite possible 'while' crafting. I know you know this though. Crafting isn't necessarily offline though it certainly can be. I also ran characters on both pub and imp side doing all these things, it honestly really is a pretty busy week if you are in a crafting guild. The thing is the mats gathering really never stops, that is an every week thing, and I'm not sure that folks who don't enjoy crafting realize this.

Oh I know, that's why I said it gets complicated. Crafting is undoubtedly a valuable part of Conquests, and arguably, a very important part of the game too (drives the GTN, removes credits and mats etc)...I just don't know how you balance crafting with everything else players do...there's not another activity that even comes close to the number of points you can get via crafting...and crafting is the only activity you can do offline (not only do, can do).

[Stellarcrusade]

Sure, low tier planets give fewer rewards but let's be fair, they require less effort.

 

Are you sure it requires less effort? Really?

 

Which is more "effort" by your definition of effort:

1.) A large guild accidentally getting 3mil conquest without even knowing what conquest is just due to the large mass of players doing normal routine things that they wanted to do anyhow.

2.) A small guild each day trying to rally 100% of logged on members to working on conquest goals instead of what they want to do in order to maximize conquest gains to eek out 300k for the week.

 

Not sure effort is what you meant there. Conquest, and the guild structure itself is meant to force everyone into large groups by deliberately making things easier for those in larger groups - not harder. It is meant to poop on anyone who wants to be in a small group.

 

The changes to conquest are a veiled attempt to keep the same concept alive - to the smaller groups goes the scraps. It is interesting how it SOUNDS like it will give the smaller groups a chance to compete, but less rewards and probably impossibility to take all the planets will happen anyhow. I think it really just shows they do not understand, nor care about those who want to stay in a group of friends, or in control of their own group, rather than be slaves of the big bully guilds that _force_ you to do things you do not want to do. Really, this concept decreases the fun of the game for players both IN and NOT IN the larger guilds.

 

If you really wanted the payouts to be based on "effort", you'd have to make the big guilds work just as hard per average daily player contribution as it is for the small guilds. If a small guild has to have 100% of its 10 players do only conquest goals 100% of the time that they are logged in to get 300k conquest, then the same should be required for a guild of 800 active players doing 100% conquest goals 100% of the time they are on - 300k conquest. Some sort of division of the overall gains to equalize it with the small guilds would be required.

 

And really, to organize things, the guild masters of large guilds simply "hire" others do to the work because the big guilds have billions (if not trillions) of credits just laying around. The small/medium guilds the guild masters typically have to do all the work (much more effort).

[DWho]

The issue is though, and you do not really acknowledge this, is that crafting is the ONLY way you can earn conquest objective points while not even being logged in. You can be earning conquest points on as many characters as you have, simultaneously. It's just a matter of logging them in to "cash in" those points that you were earning while NOT online. If you could only earn points by being online while you crafted conquest objective items, it would change the picture drastically (not that I'm suggesting it's a good idea, mind you).

 

But being able to earn points while NOT playing the game is something that isn't quite right. Yes, of course you CAN play the game at the same time... but even if you do, that doesn't account for the 15 or 30 or 100 characters you have earning points offline while you play that one.

 

That is only partially true. While you can generate the points while you are offline, gathering all of the components you need takes a significant amount of online time. You either have to gather the two gatherable materials in game from nodes or buy them on the GTN (in which case you had to do something in game to get the credits in the first place). Then you need to run crew missions (which can only be run one per companion) to get one of the components that you need to make an Assempled component (flux for Cybertech as an example - which is actually the best crafting skill to use for conquest since there are 4 flux gathering missions while there are only 2 for the other crafters "special" component). Then you have to craft the Assembled components which could conceivable be done off-line but would be very inefficient (it takes 8 of two different components for each "point" generating crafting event). Up to this point you have generated no conquest points. Doing well in crafting weeks is all about stockpiling materials which is a time consuming activity if you want to do more than just meet your personal goal.

[CaptRogue]

That is only partially true. While you can generate the points while you are offline, gathering all of the components you need takes a significant amount of online time. You either have to gather the two gatherable materials in game from nodes or buy them on the GTN (in which case you had to do something in game to get the credits in the first place). Then you need to run crew missions (which can only be run one per companion) to get one of the components that you need to make an Assempled component (flux for Cybertech as an example - which is actually the best crafting skill to use for conquest since there are 4 flux gathering missions while there are only 2 for the other crafters "special" component). Then you have to craft the Assembled components which could conceivable be done off-line but would be very inefficient (it takes 8 of two different components for each "point" generating crafting event). Up to this point you have generated no conquest points. Doing well in crafting weeks is all about stockpiling materials which is a time consuming activity if you want to do more than just meet your personal goal.

 

No Grade 8 & 9 are actually more beneficial to crafting as you can send companions out for Flux while doing anything, but you can farm those mats on specific planets.

For our guild to win Iokath last time it was around, I spent hours farming mats in prep for it plus during the time as I quickly exhausted my stash. lol

[DWho]

No Grade 8 & 9 are actually more beneficial to crafting as you can send companions out for Flux while doing anything, but you can farm those mats on specific planets.

For our guild to win Iokath last time it was around, I spent hours farming mats in prep for it plus during the time as I quickly exhausted my stash. lol

 

Interesting, I'll have to look at the Grade 8&9's. I was assuming they were in short supply but they aren't needed for crafting top tier mods and augments anymore so they might be worthwhile to gather.

[Tahana]

Oh I know, that's why I said it gets complicated. Crafting is undoubtedly a valuable part of Conquests, and arguably, a very important part of the game too (drives the GTN, removes credits and mats etc)...I just don't know how you balance crafting with everything else players do...there's not another activity that even comes close to the number of points you can get via crafting...and crafting is the only activity you can do offline (not only do, can do).

 

Well on the plus side it hopefully it will bust the gathering bots in the game.. There won't be such a demand for the mats.

[TUXs]

Well on the plus side it hopefully it will bust the gathering bots in the game.. There won't be such a demand for the mats.

While I'm all in favor of anything that hurts the bots, this is a very double edged sword...the tremendous activity that crafting creates can't be measured easily. This is a far more difficult subject than it appears on the surface.

 

However...last boss farming is a non issue.

[Tahana]

While I'm all in favor of anything that hurts the bots, this is a very double edged sword...the tremendous activity that crafting creates can't be measured easily. This is a far more difficult subject than it appears on the surface.

 

However...last boss farming is a non issue.

 

Issue or not, I still think in order for the character working on conquest it should be all of the bosses in the operations to get the credit. That way it won't ever be an issue.

[TUXs]

Issue or not, I still think in order for the character working on conquest it should be all of the bosses in the operations to get the credit. That way it won't ever be an issue.

How is that going to work? This game locks players out, meaning if I get to the last boss and fail, you're telling me I'm pretty much **** on that toon. I 100% disagree. You may not like how it works, but it's a minor issue at best, and one they'd be better off ignoring in favor of pretty much anything else.

[ivanhedgehog]

I think if you wanted to keep the lockout in CQ it should at least be worth less points than a full run. The idea of points per boss defeated might be a way to balance that. I don't think totally removing it from the game is the answer.

 

They also should only award points for a pvp win. you arent conquering anything with a loss.

[TUXs]

They also should only award points for a pvp win. you arent conquering anything with a loss.

Are you joking? That would kill Pub side PvP...even if you don't "win", you've succeeded in disrupting the enemy (from an RP perspective). PvP must award both the winners and the losers - period.

[DWho]

They also should only award points for a pvp win. you arent conquering anything with a loss.

 

They already get less points for a loss just like you would get less points for defeating only one of five bosses. Seems fairly balanced that way.

[ivanhedgehog]

Are you joking? That would kill Pub side PvP...even if you don't "win", you've succeeded in disrupting the enemy (from an RP perspective). PvP must award both the winners and the losers - period.

 

actually, I agree with you, but awarding only on a win goes right along side eliminating last boss lockouts. Neither will improve conquest or the game in any way.

[ivanhedgehog]

They already get less points for a loss just like you would get less points for defeating only one of five bosses. Seems fairly balanced that way.

 

Operations reward nothing for fails. In pvp, everybody gets rewards.

[TUXs]

actually, I agree with you, but awarding only on a win goes right along side eliminating last boss lockouts. Neither will improve conquest or the game in any way.

Agreed.

[TUXs]

Operations reward nothing for fails. In pvp, everybody gets rewards.

I believe you need medals to get anything still right? If you do nothing, you get nothing I believe.

[Tahana]

How is that going to work? This game locks players out, meaning if I get to the last boss and fail, you're telling me I'm pretty much **** on that toon. I 100% disagree. You may not like how it works, but it's a minor issue at best, and one they'd be better off ignoring in favor of pretty much anything else.

 

You 'say' it is a minor issue.. I tend to disagree... Bioware, if they're collecting/gather reports on the right information will actually 'know' how points are accumulated. In my guild last week a majority of my 50k conquest points came from running the guild operation and killing the final boss. With only a 54% SH bonus I might add.