So the consequence of making a single player game

[AngraMainju]

Are you serious?

 

If they never sign up how the hell do you expect them to ever meet people and / or learn the content?

 

You see back in the early days of mmos thats exactly what lfg tools where for. Non-guilded new folks to get out there, learn the content, meet people and find themselves a guild of like minded people to play with. Guilds were for everything else.

 

So folks take your speed runs to the guild groups and your patience and teaching into pugs where folks go to meet people and learn the only way they can. Stop ******** all over new ppl and putting them off and you might actually get somewhere. Also maybe even meet your next guildy.

 

Actually, guild runs are the best answer to both solo players taking first steps in group content, and more seasoned group players as well. I think most guilds have no problem with teaching new players stuff, if only because you know that you will play with that person again, so it will pay off. In gf, on the other hand, you can be helpful and friendly so many times with some people willing to learn and some people don't (or thinking they know better).

 

OP mentioned important thing- people are not used to playing in group, let alone the concept of trinity. Making all pre-50 flashpoints tactical was a huge mistake, as faster pops (initial goal) was achieved, BUT also it means that there is really no point in learning healing/tanking when lvling.

[Suzsi]

Actually, guild runs are the best answer to both solo players taking first steps in group content, and more seasoned group players as well. I think most guilds have no problem with teaching new players stuff, if only because you know that you will play with that person again, so it will pay off. In gf, on the other hand, you can be helpful and friendly so many times with some people willing to learn and some people don't (or thinking they know better).

 

OP mentioned important thing- people are not used to playing in group, let alone the concept of trinity. Making all pre-50 flashpoints tactical was a huge mistake, as faster pops (initial goal) was achieved, BUT also it means that there is really no point in learning healing/tanking when lvling.

 

Yes but to meet people you generally want to do some group stuff with them first before jumping into their guild -- I know I always have done. Im not just going to randomly join a guild full of strangers just because they posted an advertisement. Id much rather know I at least mesh with some of them first.

 

This is the ONLY mmo ive ever played that expects the lfg tool to be used for speed runs / seasoned players and not as a tool for those who are learning and meeting people. Every other mmo ive played thats exactly the function of the lfg tools and seasoned players who like to teach or guilds who are looking for new members also use it to do just that. All the veteran stuff is done via guild groups who have already learned to function as a team.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Suzsi

[Costello]

Are you serious?

 

If they never sign up how the hell do you expect them to ever meet people and / or learn the content?

 

You see back in the early days of mmos thats exactly what lfg tools where for. Non-guilded new folks to get out there, learn the content, meet people and find themselves a guild of like minded people to play with. Guilds were for everything else.

 

So folks take your speed runs to the guild groups and your patience and teaching into pugs where folks go to meet people and learn the only way they can. Stop ******** all over new ppl and putting them off and you might actually get somewhere. Also maybe even meet your next guildy.

 

I always help people out, hell I just did an uprising where 2 people spent much of the time dead, so much so we would have been better off using companions but not once did either of them even so much as suggest they needed to know the tactics and they were the ones pushing forward constantly and getting themselves killed at every turn. But we rezed them and tried to cover them as best we could when they got themselves into trouble,

 

But equally I have yet to see a compelling argument how clicking on the LFG tool means that the random group of strangers should have to help you out. At no point in that tool is there anywhere that any other player has volunteered for that role. How much of an entitled **** do you have to be to meet random people who may be looking for a speed run and say Guys I don't know what I'm doing I want you to take time out to teach me. You don't go up to random members on the street and expect them to educate you so why is this different.

 

Likewise I have yet to see anyone that has used a PUG has a recruiting tool for friends or guilds. The most communication I often see is hi and the start and bye at the end. The occasional try to offer some advise, but one time I tried to explain to a sorc how he could bubble and heal the tank and he went off on one. Learnt my lesson.

 

Personally I don't see the great desire for group content, it seems more and more people want to rush through it and don't really want to be in a group while there is almost no social interaction. If your not enjoying it and can have the experienced ruined by the people your with whats the appeal.

[Suzsi]

I always help people out, hell I just did an uprising where 2 people spent much of the time dead, so much so we would have been better off using companions but not once did either of them even so much as suggest they needed to know the tactics and they were the ones pushing forward constantly and getting themselves killed at every turn. But we rezed them and tried to cover them as best we could when they got themselves into trouble,

 

But equally I have yet to see a compelling argument how clicking on the LFG tool means that the random group of strangers should have to help you out. At no point in that tool is there anywhere that any other player has volunteered for that role. How much of an entitled **** do you have to be to meet random people who may be looking for a speed run and say Guys I don't know what I'm doing I want you to take time out to teach me. You don't go up to random members on the street and expect them to educate you so why is this different.

 

Likewise I have yet to see anyone that has used a PUG has a recruiting tool for friends or guilds. The most communication I often see is hi and the start and bye at the end. The occasional try to offer some advise, but one time I tried to explain to a sorc how he could bubble and heal the tank and he went off on one. Learnt my lesson.

 

Personally I don't see the great desire for group content, it seems more and more people want to rush through it and don't really want to be in a group while there is almost no social interaction. If your not enjoying it and can have the experienced ruined by the people your with whats the appeal.

 

 

It again comes down to people having no choice. A new player without a guild or a casual player in a small guild has zero choice BUT to use the LFG tool during events such as this one if they ever want a chance at seeing that companion. What would you rather have them do? Not tell you its the first time they are doing that content in a group and then totally screw it up when you hit the first boss, or be curtious and let you know so you can inform them of the ins and outs, dos and donts of the fp before you begin? Then if people dont take a few mins to type a few lines and it all goes **** its not the fault of the person who warned them that this was the case.

 

Take me for an example if you will. During the DVL event I did many flashpoints in veteran mode with a group for the first time ever. Was always polite and did the right thing in warning the group at the very start that it was my first time through. Usually I much prefer to do everthing I can solo but the event was having none of that if I ever wanted to see those rewards. I am in a guild but its a guild of only 2 regular players and several irregular players. Not enough to have done the event without using lfg. Sometimes a person in the group would be nice enough to explain the boss fights before each one and the fp would go smoothly, other times they wouldnt bother and things would go south. (Im not new to grouping in MMOs or even raiding, I know how to follow instructions, its just not something I do in this MMO unless forced).

 

Someone who is in a guild full of people has a choice not to group with random strangers who may be new to the instances. If they click that tool they are acknowledging the fact that it is there for everyone, new, casual and old alike. If they don't want to deal with that or lack the patience to deal with it they at least have the choice to grab some friends from their guild to go do their speed runs with instead. Someone who is new doesn't have that option because they don't know anyone yet.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Suzsi

[AngraMainju]

I always help people out, hell I just did an uprising where 2 people spent much of the time dead, so much so we would have been better off using companions but not once did either of them even so much as suggest they needed to know the tactics and they were the ones pushing forward constantly and getting themselves killed at every turn. But we rezed them and tried to cover them as best we could when they got themselves into trouble,

 

But equally I have yet to see a compelling argument how clicking on the LFG tool means that the random group of strangers should have to help you out. At no point in that tool is there anywhere that any other player has volunteered for that role. How much of an entitled **** do you have to be to meet random people who may be looking for a speed run and say Guys I don't know what I'm doing I want you to take time out to teach me. You don't go up to random members on the street and expect them to educate you so why is this different.

 

Likewise I have yet to see anyone that has used a PUG has a recruiting tool for friends or guilds. The most communication I often see is hi and the start and bye at the end. The occasional try to offer some advise, but one time I tried to explain to a sorc how he could bubble and heal the tank and he went off on one. Learnt my lesson.

 

Personally I don't see the great desire for group content, it seems more and more people want to rush through it and don't really want to be in a group while there is almost no social interaction. If your not enjoying it and can have the experienced ruined by the people your with whats the appeal.

 

People new to the fp/ops and not knowing mechanics is not a problem, people that have no idea about how to play their class or how the group is supposed to work- it drives me crazy, and is the reason why I seldom use gf for anything other than transport for guild runs. There is a world of difference between people doing fp for a first time and not knowing tactics, and those that have no idea even about their rotation . It might not be important in tacticals, but in hms it makes me angry.

 

 

And, yeah, usually the interaction os limited to saying hi/thx bye and that's it. I haven't really seen any toxic behaviour or being rude to anyone.

 

Then again, I don't see unranked PvP being toxic nearly as much as some people claim it to be

[RikuvonDrake]

Very often, new players will neither ask for tactics or say that they are new when they enter a flashpoint group through GF, and even if they do, a majority won't listen/adhere to the tactics or strategy that other players tell them.

 

That is the main problem, people who are willing to learn and listening to instructions are not the issue and should not be lumped together with the main issue group.

[AlrikFassbauer]

What I was seeing more and more over the last few years was people developing more and more advanced ways to evade encounters - and get through the FP as fast as possible aka speedruns.

 

They just didn't focus on learning mechanics, they focused on avoiding them. Except bosses, of coursxe.

Or, in other words :

They learned how to avoid encounters, not mechanics.

[casirabit]

While asking for space barring is the best way, don't assume they are watching the cutscene. I normally space bar but the other day my internet was a little slow during the cutscenes and then got fussed at because of the space bar not immediately going through. I told the person this and then got another attitude. Don't jump on them if they are space barring and it is slow than you expect, it is not that big of deal to throw a fit about it.

 

It is one thing to avoid some mobs but when you go completely out of the way to avoid it, then it creates a problem.

Edited November 12, 2017 by casirabit

[aerockyul]

Increase the influence of your companion to 50 and queue with a friend, then you always have the option to vote kick people who are annoying or not pulling their weight, more often than not your companion is likely to do more DPS than the PUG anyway.

 

I and a friend ran three flashpoints/uprisings earlier this week and we ended up with a really ****** person in our last Mastermode Flashpoints, he would stop and loot every single mob (they reward between 20 and 50 credits each) and thus end up far behind us and not contribute at all. During boss fights, we would tell him basic tactics cause it was clear he was new, but he would ignore them and die/be useless anyway, ended up killing all bosses but before we clicked the final console we kicked him.

 

Naturally, he started with angry whispers but that became a quick report and a ignore, hopefully, he learns for next time.

 

If he was not listening to advice before boss fights I can understand, but this is another example of making pugs more painful than they need to be. Not everyone is so rich to pass up all the FREE credits and junk for selling, and it doesn't take long to loot, so if you're running way ahead of him, OF COURSE he's not going to be helpful when you start fights before and leave more loot for him to stop on.

 

It was a pretty big dick move to let him tag along the whole time and kick him right before the end. If he was such a huge bother to you all, you should have kicked him when you noticed his "abhorrent" behavior or after a clear warning. Then you have the gall to report him???

 

If you want to play a certain way then you shouldn't use the GroupFinder. If you want others to play YOUR way, you need to clearly explain it beforehand and let them either follow or leave on their own, not pull the rug out from under them right before the end.

 

"Nice" example of why GF is so painful for new players.

Edited November 13, 2017 by aerockyul

[Tsillah]

What I was seeing more and more over the last few years was people developing more and more advanced ways to evade encounters - and get through the FP as fast as possible aka speedruns.

 

They just didn't focus on learning mechanics, they focused on avoiding them. Except bosses, of coursxe.

Or, in other words :

They learned how to avoid encounters, not mechanics.

 

You are correct and Bioware caters to this behaviour in various ways.

 

The Galactic Command carrot is a big one. That system encourages people to gain CXP rather than enjoy the game. FPs have little else to offer in rewards outside of CXP and since CXP rewards are subject to RNG people just go for the fastest CXP gain per minute.

 

Also a lot of the content in this game is old, very old....I see the combination of old content with a simplistic RNG reward system as the main culprits here.

 

Aside from that, if you see how cleverly people avoid stuff...Battle of Rishi for example. It's actually ridiculous what you can skip, but Taral V and Battle for Ilum are older examples and Bioware never fixed that.

 

Then there is another huge issue that I need to mention...players are often overpowered compared to the content. Bolster is part of the problem there. I personally feel that bolster in PvE is a bad thing.

 

There was a time where you could get some minimum gear from FPs (which made them very relevant) that you needed to do operations. Then you could gain gear in the operations.

 

Now you start at level 50 and win 236 gear before you're max level. Get augments and go straight to HM EV and KP for 242 gear. In the mean time you get busy with grinding crates and UCs if you can stand warzones (or afk them) and get 248 gear.

 

People will have 248 gear and still don't know how to do basic mechanics. Why? Because they can get away with it.

 

I was in KP HM last night. Most people had 248 gear. Karagga enraged and we just managed to kill the boss with 2 people standing. I mean 248 gear on most DPS and still get enrage?

 

The class nerfs weren't that bad...this is just players who never learned because they didn't have to.

[jstankaroslo]

Increase the influence of your companion to 50 and queue with a friend, then you always have the option to vote kick people who are annoying or not pulling their weight, more often than not your companion is likely to do more DPS than the PUG anyway.

 

I and a friend ran three flashpoints/uprisings earlier this week and we ended up with a really ****** person in our last Mastermode Flashpoints, he would stop and loot every single mob (they reward between 20 and 50 credits each) and thus end up far behind us and not contribute at all. During boss fights, we would tell him basic tactics cause it was clear he was new, but he would ignore them and die/be useless anyway, ended up killing all bosses but before we clicked the final console we kicked him.

 

Naturally, he started with angry whispers but that became a quick report and a ignore, hopefully, he learns for next time.

 

so you discouraged the new player to group activities.

Also you expected them to keep up with your speed run and got annoyed new player couldn't keep up?

And you take personal offence if someone... loots the mobs?!

I bet your giving him basic tactics was some code only you and your friend understand -as you obviously can't spend a second too long doing the game content. All you care about is your reward. I bet if it was just a text file telling you that you go through a dangerous environment an here is your reward you'd prefer it over carefully designed SWTOR FP content.

And then you frak the new player kicking him out just before the FP end. What a douche move. I bet they never touch group content again.

So you not only fraked up new player but also all of us wanting more people in group activities.

Why did you need GF anyway -you and your buddy should've used your companions if you can't stand real people. And then you reported the new player...

 

Gosh -what is beyond my understanding of our society is: why do you ever think it is something to brag about?

[DanNV]

Increase the influence of your companion to 50 and queue with a friend, then you always have the option to vote kick people who are annoying or not pulling their weight, more often than not your companion is likely to do more DPS than the PUG anyway.

 

I and a friend ran three flashpoints/uprisings earlier this week and we ended up with a really ****** person in our last Mastermode Flashpoints, he would stop and loot every single mob (they reward between 20 and 50 credits each) and thus end up far behind us and not contribute at all. During boss fights, we would tell him basic tactics cause it was clear he was new, but he would ignore them and die/be useless anyway, ended up killing all bosses but before we clicked the final console we kicked him.

 

Naturally, he started with angry whispers but that became a quick report and a ignore, hopefully, he learns for next time.

 

Honestly, to me it sounds like you were the problem. New players don't always get it, and that can be frustrating. However, they also don't tend to have many credits, so those 50 from a mod are a big deal to them by the end of the FP. It's people who play like you describe that give GF a really bad name.

[DanNV]

So folks take your speed runs to the guild groups and your patience and teaching into pugs where folks go to meet people and learn the only way they can. Stop ******** all over new ppl and putting them off and you might actually get somewhere. Also maybe even meet your next guildy.

 

Well said. Very well said.

[Tsillah]

I personally think that GF has been a good tool for putting groups together. The problem is its inability to match based on levels of playing skill, which seems to be the primary complaint. Bolstering pretty much took level and gearing expertise out of the equation. So about all that remains to accurately filter players based on skill would be via achievements. The devs can't even give us full loot tables, so I don't see how they could pull that off.

There are many issues with how the GF works that cause people to use the GF mostly as a taxi and not as a group finder. People tend to make group first on the fleet or in their guilds and then use the GF.

 

I agree it's not the only problem but the GF is definitely not a great system. Just look at what happens when you lose a player in you group. Unless you're doing something role neutral it's going to be a problem.

 

And in the end the GF doesn't even match right. In role-neutral content the GF should never accept 2+ healers in a 4-man group but it happens. They are basically more or less balanced around 4 dps and anything less than 3 dps will cause the party to slow down considerably. These are just some examples but since you have no control over what happens with group formation, it creates all sorts of issues. I particularly love that part when it pops and 3 people go ready and one person is afk and takes 2 minutes to run out before you can queue again.

 

I mean I can go on.

 

So I agree there's more going on but the GF is definitely part of the problem and makes things worse, not better.

[Morteistno]

I think some players have an irrational fear of grouping up because they are inexperienced or whatever.

 

If you stick to the following you will be (more than) fine.

 

1. make sure you have something in every slot equipped

2. announce you are new player don't hide it.

3. in terms of veteran fp's the large majority of them is not a problem some are tricky though umbara, and the one annoying manaan boss I can think off.

4. If it is umbara and there is more than one lowlevel in the group the odds of completing the fp are close to zero, so don't bve surprised that a lot of players will leave immeadiately if they see more than one lowlevel and it's umbara.

5. hammer station is very easy but also notable for being the number 1 FP choice for people who just want to grind cxp.

6. If unsure of what to do see what the experienced players do. Don't charge off as the first one if you don't know the fp.

7. pay attention to CC. If someone CC'd a mob don't attack it.

8. Don't expect the average highlevel player to be interested in the bonusses - most of them are of absolutely no vlue to them anymore. If you want to do all the bonusses look for a group of people with the same goal. Odds of getting them in a random pug are close to zero. (Except for a new fp, which would be umbara but even there the bonus boss is rarely done especially with a lowlevel - see also point 4.

 

Everyone had to learn at one point, So did the more experienced players.

 

And the stories of getting kicked because of not spacing.. I find them hard to believe tbh. Yes, people get kicked in FP's. I have seen it happen when they were AFK, or a very real drag on the team - ie Leroy Jenkins' types , or for very obnoxious behaviour. Eg a healer who felt entitled to all loot and then stopped healing if he didn't get it (Not an issue anymore with current loot system though...) , I have to sayit felt really great to kick that one right before mission complete

[AlrikFassbauer]

I was in KP HM last night. Most people had 248 gear. Karagga enraged and we just managed to kill the boss with 2 people standing. I mean 248 gear on most DPS and still get enrage?

 

The class nerfs weren't that bad...this is just players who never learned because they didn't have to.

 

I don't think I've ever seen Karagga enrage.

 

I bet your giving him basic tactics was some code only you and your friend understand

 

I have seen such a thing, too. I do understand most "codes", but taking that for granted ... like expecting an elementary school pupil to be able to understand algorithms ...

 

And you take personal offence if someone... loots the mobs?!

 

Up too this point I had always tought that the mobs were there BECAUSE to be looted ?!?!?

 

I mean - if they were not to be looted - why do they drop loot in the fiirst place, then ? Is this a bug ?

Edited November 12, 2017 by AlrikFassbauer

[SourOrange]

I think for the people who want others to space-bar through everything it's more of a "I've seen it a 100 times" thing rather than I don't have time for this. I think for those who don't want others to take their time with things, it's best for them to group with friends! There's no need for people to be a dick about it.

 

Like others have said, this is the kind of behaviour that stops people from grouping.

 

I usually ask folks in a group if they've seen the material before and if they'd like to watch the cutscenes or not. The game is old but you never know- someone could be a new player, or an old player who just doesn't do a lot of group content.

 

I don't mind either way- I've seen most of the cutscenes and I'm willing to spacebar if that's what people want, but I can also take my time and watch them again if there's a person who would like to experience them.

That said, if there are any primarily solo players on Star Forge who would like to group for veteran flashpoints, send me a PM. I'd be happy to help out how I can, maybe duo some of the content first so you can have a chance to figure out the mechanics and such.

 

Group content is intimidating, to be sure, but it's significantly less intimidating when you've got a bit of experience with the content in question. It's easy to fall in with a group of impatient jerkwads, but it's just as easy to find people who are willing to help and be patient- so don't worry, you'll be fine.

Edited November 12, 2017 by SourOrange

[devilkat]

I'm just talking about giving everyone a heads-up at the very beginning. So they know that I'm a) not familiar with the boss mechanics and b) will probably not be spacebarring through cutscenes. Admittedly, I've not had that experience but once or twice. And, if I can help it, from here on out, I'll be running with my guild since they're all laid-back folk who don't mind taking the time to explain things. (And they're patient with me when I do crazy things like suicide force-jumps at mobs that I didn't realize were hovering over a lift that was currently 50 meters down. *cough* Damn Cademinu *cough*)

 

LOL! I was grouped with some friends the other night and we ran that one and made a game of racing the big lift down (the guy fell faster...). Then the diagonal one caught him and glitched his body out. Fun times

[RikuvonDrake]

This is part of the problem, you guys are all apologetic, I spent several minutes ahead of each boss explaining tactics to a person who didn't say a word when I asked in the start of the flashpoint if I needed to explain anything (he died at the first boss so I noticed he had no idea what to do). And yes, it is ****** to ask for someone to not do loot, but it does speed things up a bit and I did offer to pay him 5k at the end of the flashpoint instead, I highlight doubt I was the problem here.

 

It has no issues with people who either admit that they are new or say that they want tactical explanations, however people who don't say a word, and then showcase they have no idea about tactics or strategy and then actively ignore my explanations of the boss mechanics... those people are the key issue.

[Eshvara]

This is part of the problem, you guys are all apologetic, I spent several minutes ahead of each boss explaining tactics to a person who didn't say a word when I asked in the start of the flashpoint if I needed to explain anything (he died at the first boss so I noticed he had no idea what to do). And yes, it is ****** to ask for someone to not do loot, but it does speed things up a bit and I did offer to pay him 5k at the end of the flashpoint instead, I highlight doubt I was the problem here.

 

It has no issues with people who either admit that they are new or say that they want tactical explanations, however people who don't say a word, and then showcase they have no idea about tactics or strategy and then actively ignore my explanations of the boss mechanics... those people are the key issue.

 

I get what you're saying, and you certainly have a point. But I also get why people may not want to say they're new.

I guess it's difficult when you expect the worst reactions due to negative experiences, but people not speaking up could lead to another negative experience.

[DWho]

If you are playing random group content you should expect to get a random group. If you want to play group content a specific way you are going to need to deliberately form a group consistent with that. I have seen an even more disturbing trend which is to kick the lowest level player so that one of the high level players can bring out their companion instead for the flashpoint. Edited November 12, 2017 by DWho

[RikuvonDrake]

I get what you're saying, and you certainly have a point. But I also get why people may not want to say they're new.

I guess it's difficult when you expect the worst reactions due to negative experiences, but people not speaking up could lead to another negative experience.

 

I totally get that, and at the same time if people kick you for being new, fair enough that is their prerogative, you are just one of four player, majority gotta be able to decide they want to play. As a new player you are there just as much to learn the mechanics and boss fights as you are to complete the flashpoint. Waiting for a group that is able to teach you (or even better, join a guild/guild run that is more friendly/accommodating), is most likely going to serve a new player a lot more than just joining the first best group.

Edited November 12, 2017 by RikuvonDrake

[Eshvara]

I totally get that, and at the same time if people kick you for being new, fair enough that is their prerogative, as a new player you are there just as much to learn the mechanics and boss fights as you are to complete the flashpoint. Waiting for a group that is able to teach you (or even better, join a guild/guild run that is more friendly/accommodating), is most likely going to serve a new player a lot more than just joining the first best group.

 

Yeah that's true. I think it's best for both types of players that need a specific type of play style to play with guild/friends. And I guess if you're willing to risk the RNG in players through GF, then that's fine too! But nobody should have to put up with total dickwads. But it's to be expected at times, I guess:rak_02:

[RikuvonDrake]

Yeah that's true. I think it's best for both types of players that need a specific type of play style to play with guild/friends. And I guess if you're willing to risk the RNG in players through GF, then that's fine too! But nobody should have to put up with total dickwads. But it's to be expected at times, I guess:rak_02:

 

I guess it ends up being a question of you expecting other people to teach you tactics, as in they take time from their gaming and teach you how to play, I am happy to do that normally and do that on a regular basis in Operations. However, on the irregular basis, I do flashpoints without a full guild group, I don't mind teaching the PUG if he is new, but if that person ignores my instructions and doesn't contribute in any way, I am gonna be a full-out dickwad.

Edited November 13, 2017 by RikuvonDrake

[Eshvara]

I guess it ends up being a question of you expecting other people to teach you tactics, as in they take time from their gaming and teach you how to play, I am happy to do that normally and do that on a regular basis in Operations. However, on the irregular basis, I do flashpoints without a full guild group, I don't teach the PUG if he is new, but if that person ignores my instructions and doesn't contribute in any way, I am gonna be a full-out dickwad.

 

When I join a pug on the rare occasion, I don't expect anything, I don't expect people to be helpful, friendly or know what they're doing. I just do whatever needs doing and get it over with. If someone needs help, I'll help out, but I don't tend to go out of my way and ask what's what.

Im typically a solo player and just go by the, " don't bother me and I won't bother you" works fine.

 

If things do go bad and players aren't performing well or wanting to contribute in any way, I tend to cuss irl at the screen and may break some things on my desk, but remain quiet in game.

 

What nobody knows never happened.