Vapaad vs Sorcery.

[kepeskvaeri]

Vapaad seems to me like one of the ultimate weapons against a dark side warriors. It allows the user to not only use his own darkness but also that of his opponent to fuel his power. Even if only one person in all of Star Wars has been able to master the form

 

The match between Palpatine and Mace Windu is interesting that way. I think that Palpatine was more powerfull with the force but Mace used Palpatines power against him and as such is the only one (I think) that has been able to beat Palpatine on his own.

 

But here is the real question. Could Vapaad be used to counter Sith Sorcery the purest expression of the dark side? Could Vapaad be used to counter the power of a Death Field or an Insanity spell. Would Mace have been so succesful if Palpatine had brought his sorcery to bear? Or if Vitiate or the Dread masters returned from the grave had used their power on him?

I don't know what do you think?

[orangenee]

If one of the old sorcerers came forward into Windu's time they'd likely wipe the floor with him. Vaapad was created in a time when there were thought to be no Sith at all, just the odd fallen jedi.

[MadDutchman]

If one of the old sorcerers came forward into Windu's time they'd likely wipe the floor with him. Vaapad was created in a time when there were thought to be no Sith at all, just the odd fallen jedi.

 

I agree with this.

 

While Vaapad would probably still bolster the abilities of the wielder, they still would have no defense against the attack itself (unlike with lightning, you just can't stick your lightsaber in the way of it)

[MajorZuma]

I always thought it was believed that the Prequel era of Jedi were the strongest of all time. Fot examole, each Jedi that displayed a particular saber form was considered the best of that saber form. Like Dooku with Makashi and Mace with Vapaad.

 

The reason for me saying this is because Sidious has been stayed by George Lucas himself and multiple times in the EU as the most powerful Sith of all time and Mace did more than hold his own against him until Anakin came in the picture Sidious began the act.

 

I think the Jedi and Sith of the movies destroy most of the Old Republic characters rather handily, if GL created them and GL is considered God it's hard to believe a Character created by a secondary author could overpower a Character he believed to be the strongest.

 

I believe Yoda was regarded as the strongest Jedi before the death star and Luke became the strongest after the death star.

 

So Yoda being the strongest, to me means Mace and the rest of the Order at that time are the strongest so I think Mace vrudhes the Sith Sorcerers.

[kepeskvaeri]

Different topic altogether. The question was not who would win against who in terms of swordsmanship, that is another story and has been discussed an raved over time and time again and has no place in this thread.

 

The question was how Vapaad with its great advantage would stand up to Sith Sorcery if it was used. We could stretch the topic a bit further and ask how the Jedi counter sorcery at all. I have made i previous thread about this (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923048) and all the answer I got was plot armor.

Edited October 29, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

[cs_zoltan]

Force Drain was used against Mace before, although without his knowledge. But I doubt Vaapad could counter Sorcery, it doesn't quite work like that.

[orangenee]

Different topic altogether. The question was not who would win against who in terms of swordsmanship, that is another story and has been discussed an raved over time and time again and has no place in this thread.

 

The question was how Vapaad with its great advantage would stand up to Sith Sorcery if it was used. We could stretch the topic a bit further and ask how the Jedi counter sorcery at all. I have made i previous thread about this (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923048) and all the answer I got was plot armor.

 

Guess it would come down to how many "dark side" techniques the Jedi were aware of. I believe a lot of the Sith holocrons containing the older techniques were destroyed but Kenobi himself used a few naughty powers like force crush and dominate mind for example.

 

I would say Windu would hold out better than most but he'd give out eventually. Vapaad takes a lot out of you.

[kepeskvaeri]

I am going to have disagree with you there. Force crush is just TK used a bit destructively, you squeeze someones organs or bones instead of pushing them several yards away. Not that advanced.

 

And during his fight with Palpatine Windu used Vapaad to such a degree that the fighting was effortless after a while, beyond fatigue and that the fight could have gone on infefently if he hadn't used shatterpoint. I do not have the text on my computer so i can not post a quote but as I am writing this I am sitting with the book in my hand.

[orangenee]

I am going to have disagree with you there. Force crush is just TK used a bit destructively, you squeeze someones organs or bones instead of pushing them several yards away. Not that advanced.

 

And during his fight with Palpatine Windu used Vapaad to such a degree that the fighting was effortless after a while, beyond fatigue and that the fight could have gone on infefently if he hadn't used shatterpoint. I do not have the text on my computer so i can not post a quote but as I am writing this I am sitting with the book in my hand.

 

I'll concede that one.

 

Ah of course, I forgot about Mace and his shatterpoint. I've never read the novelization myself so I may be lacking some other information. Though I doubt he could have kept it up indefinitely, superconducting loops have their limits.

 

As other people have mentioned though, that was lightning he was up against there. The old sith had far more insidious power. A lot was lost between the old sith empire and even Bane's rise to power.

[MajorZuma]

I was using Mace as an example because he is considered the best practitioner of Vapaad and since Sidious is considered the most powerful Sith definitely would classify him as a sorcerer or inquisitor of some sort. Mace was able to reflect the lightning back at Sidious and it looked like he was going to kill Sidious, regardless of whether he was or not I don't see why someone with Vapaad couldn't do the same to another Sith a sorcerer.

 

Obviously Sidious could have been playing it up how much in trouble he actually was, but I don't see why we couldn't see the same scenario happening and actually following through with a weaker Sith and a strong jedi

Edited October 30, 2017 by MajorZuma

[Renhek]

Mace indeed bested the MOST powerful Sith ever using only Vaapad. So yeah, Vaapad wins, no opinions here, just facts. The stronger the Sith with the dark side, the (relative) easier is for Mace to beat him. Canon, Lucas' words.

 

Sidious wasn't faking and he's all about sorcery, his lightning is the most powerful.

[MadDutchman]

Mace indeed bested the MOST powerful Sith ever using only Vaapad. So yeah, Vaapad wins, no opinions here, just facts. The stronger the Sith with the dark side, the (relative) easier is for Mace to beat him. Canon, Lucas' words.

 

Sidious wasn't faking and he's all about sorcery, his lightning is the most powerful.

 

I don't think you even read the thread...

 

Lightning != Sorcery. SWTOR is the only place I know of where it falls under that designation

 

To put it another way, how would Vaapad user (note as well, Vaapad, not Mace Windu) fair against someone like Zannah?

[xeNNNNN]

I always thought it was believed that the Prequel era of Jedi were the strongest of all time. Fot examole, each Jedi that displayed a particular saber form was considered the best of that saber form. Like Dooku with Makashi and Mace with Vapaad.

 

The reason for me saying this is because Sidious has been stayed by George Lucas himself and multiple times in the EU as the most powerful Sith of all time and Mace did more than hold his own against him until Anakin came in the picture Sidious began the act.

 

I think the Jedi and Sith of the movies destroy most of the Old Republic characters rather handily, if GL created them and GL is considered God it's hard to believe a Character created by a secondary author could overpower a Character he believed to be the strongest.

 

I believe Yoda was regarded as the strongest Jedi before the death star and Luke became the strongest after the death star.

 

So Yoda being the strongest, to me means Mace and the rest of the Order at that time are the strongest so I think Mace vrudhes the Sith Sorcerers.

 

the problem with post ep 6 lore (EU) is that they made Luke and Palpatine way too overpowered for their own good so as far as i am concerned when talking about palpatine I cannot use that source material in my head for working out who was and who isnt strong because it just ends up being stupid. at least too me.

 

As for lucas's "cannon" originally, he basically said that so that anything that came before i.e TOR was irrelevant in comparison too his creation. (Keep in mind a lot of the TOR lore wasn't really something lucas approved of, he just didnt stop it and probably regrets it, hes a very arrogant guy imo, glad he created the universe but yeah). I cant consider the jedi of the movies being the strongest jedi ever. Way too many previous feats from TOR lore outweigh anything they did. As for yoda idk. He probably is/was extremely powerful but ehhh lack of visual evidence and written for that matter makes me believe that he was powerful but not as powerful as say .... idk satele shan or bastila or even revan for that matter.

 

I will however say that I am biased as I do much much prefer the TOR era. I actually hate the rule of two. It makes the sith way too predictable and makes the jedi weak.

[MajorZuma]

the problem with post ep 6 lore (EU) is that they made Luke and Palpatine way too overpowered for their own good so as far as i am concerned when talking about palpatine I cannot use that source material in my head for working out who was and who isnt strong because it just ends up being stupid. at least too me.

 

As for lucas's "cannon" originally, he basically said that so that anything that came before i.e TOR was irrelevant in comparison too his creation. (Keep in mind a lot of the TOR lore wasn't really something lucas approved of, he just didnt stop it and probably regrets it, hes a very arrogant guy imo, glad he created the universe but yeah). I cant consider the jedi of the movies being the strongest jedi ever. Way too many previous feats from TOR lore outweigh anything they did. As for yoda idk. He probably is/was extremely powerful but ehhh lack of visual evidence and written for that matter makes me believe that he was powerful but not as powerful as say .... idk satele shan or bastila or even revan for that matter.

 

I will however say that I am biased as I do much much prefer the TOR era. I actually hate the rule of two. It makes the sith way too predictable and makes the jedi weak.

 

 

See now this is where our road ends. I can't criticise you for discrediting an argument because you think it shouldn't have happened even though it did but I can tell you what I know and Canon is Canon and the Expanded Universe that we know and love has to follow that Canon.

 

 

While you may deem what you think is Canon and what isnt Canon but the creators/authors of the TOR Expanded Universe and this MMO were told to follow Canon guidelines laid out by LucasArts. Which is why the fans consider George Lucas's word and LucasArt's word as the word of SW God. The EU has to follow it unless retcons were made by Disney which has happened a few times but they have been mostly minor.

Edited November 9, 2017 by MajorZuma

[kepeskvaeri]

My prayers has been answered and I rejoice. There is people out there who agree with me regarding powerlevels of various eras ( at least to a certain degree)

 

But pls keep to the subject of the thread: Vapad vs Sorcery would Vapaad prevail?

 

I have made to other threads to discuss the powerlevel of the movie era force users pls discuss away on them. Here is the links

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=928298

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924984

[NagaShadowT]

 

 

If one of the old sorcerers came forward into Windu's time they'd likely wipe the floor with him. Vaapad was created in a time when there were thought to be no Sith at all, just the odd fallen jedi.

Not to mention that as powerful as sorcery truly is, it often requires preparations, something Palpatine did not have in that moment. "I must say you're here sooner than I expected." Also worth noting: How much of that final bit was Palpatine trying to defeat Windu, and how much was him appearing weak to persuade Anakin? Palpatine is sort of an anomaly, because as powerful as he was, he played games that were so subtle, sometimes we can only postulate as to their full extent.

[kepeskvaeri]

Which is the worst thing about him.

 

In the prequels he is a political genius who has everyone eating out of his hand but in the Dark Empire and after he has grown so powerfull that he can whip up a storm in seconds. Unfortunatly he had also grown so petty and greedy that he let his finest admiral (Thrawn) fend for himslf just for taking up the role of leader and the undermined him.

 

That is what I hate about Palpatine the most, his incosistancy. In the old media he is a overpowered moroon with no longterm ability left but in the newer he seems so much more dangerous and brilliant.

 

One could arguee though that he simply grew mad with power when he didn't have an enemy to oppose anymore breaking the first tenent of the Sith. Peace is a lie if you do not have goal or reason to grow you will stagnate which seems like what happened to him in the end and when an enemy appeared that could challenge him he simply could not cope with potentaly loose his power so he went in to stupid berserk.

 

When I think closer I sort of like that explanation. He did not loose because he wasn't good enough he lost because he brooke the code of his own order and let himself stagante and become arrogant the exact same thing that happened to the Jedi. Whit the rules that has been placed in the Legends universe nowadays what other explanation is there for how easily he was severed from the force?

[Sangetorix]

Obviously Sidious could have been playing it up how much in trouble he actually was, but I don't see why we couldn't see the same scenario happening and actually following through with a weaker Sith and a strong jedi

 

 

Not to mention that as powerful as sorcery truly is, it often requires preparations, something Palpatine did not have in that moment. "I must say you're here sooner than I expected." Also worth noting: How much of that final bit was Palpatine trying to defeat Windu, and how much was him appearing weak to persuade Anakin? Palpatine is sort of an anomaly, because as powerful as he was, he played games that were so subtle, sometimes we can only postulate as to their full extent.

 

So much this. It was a deliberate test to finally compel Anakin to the dark side. I've always thought about that ever since I first saw episode 3.

 

I mean, listen to what he says to Anakin, knowing that Anakin wants/needs his power or tutelage to save Padme's life:

"Don't let him kill me!..."

"I can't.....I can't hold on any longer.....I'm too weak....."

 

And then after that he has the very exaggerated and feigned look of horror as it looks as if Windu is about to kill him. By deliberately pretending to be weak and helpless, he also manages to play on Anakin's sense of justice and right and wrong, essentially 'tricking' Anakin to do the right thing and save him. Anakin even tells Windu, "He must stand trial!" Also, remember that when Anakin is made Palpatine's 'representative' on the Jedi Council, they ask him to spy on Palpatine for them. Anakin then proceeds to tell Obi-Wan, "You're asking me to betray the Jedi Code, to betray a mentor and a friend ---- that's what's not right here...."

 

First Anakin feels his own Masters have betrayed the entire Jedi Code....and then sees Windu about to execute someone without trial. Palpatine's machinations are now complete. I personally have no doubt that the entire affair was a ruse on Palpatine's part, in order to encourage the most powerful force user known to the dark side, while even making it appear that the dark side is more moral or 'right,' with the two examples I mentioned above.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Sangetorix

[kepeskvaeri]

Back to topic pls it has gone far enough whether Windu or Palpatine could do this and that. That discussion has been gone over and over time and time again.

 

Sorcery how would it stand up to Vapaad if the sorcerer had enough room to use it.

Forget Palpatine and Windu. If someone in a pararell Star Wars universe alos had mastered Vapaad and tried to fight a sorcerer with it how would it turn out?

 

If you go for the canon sources the Vapaad-master would not turn out so well I think. We see how a pure swordsman and forceuser reacts to sorcery in TCW when Talzin attacks Dooku during the fight at Dathomir, he never sees it coming and has no defence against it at all.