Class Changes: Annihilation Marauder / Watchman Sentinel

[Exocor]

In my opinion, the nerf to annihilation/watchman is understandable. A guild member estimated the changes and said it is about ~400 DPS less for the top parse on parsley. Thats not much due to the fact, that annihilation/watchman is the top DPS-spec at the moment. Compared with other melee sustained DPS-specs, Maras/Sents have great off-DPS-abilitys, superior DCD's/survivability and in many situations very good raid utility.

The DPS gets sometimes compared with Operative-Lethality. At this point, we have to consider the things mentioned above and compare both classes/specs: Operatives have a minor raid buff, decent raid utility (off heals/stealth rez) but very bad DCD's and survivability. Annihilation/Watchmen will do slightly less DPS then Lethality. It will still be superior versus Vengeance, Pyrotech and Hatred. From this perspective, they would have been right, to tune down the DPS even more, but, they luckily considered the current state of Carnage/Combat and made a fair compromise.

 

So, all in all, a slight nerf to DPS won't hurt anyone. It won't be "impossible to beat harder Ops bosses". Annihilation will still be one of the top DPS-classes. Considering Melee-Burst-classes, they maybe consider nerfing Carnage (again) and Advanced Prototype, that are are on par with some of the melee-sustained classes. However, as long as I, as an average DPS-player, am able to beat the hardest content, the classes are overtuned. I would be glad to see harder DPS-checks (tanking enraged bosses is fun ). It took quite some time, until I realized it myself, but in my opinion, we are on the right way. And when the price for making old content challenging again is some scared off sentinels, then it's worth the cost.

[Thaladan]

with nerf like this, how some players can continue toi say that all these nerf are PvP oriented...

 

diversity in PvP is just terrible, 90% of maras are fury and this will be worse.

[AnonymousMi]

Hey everyone,

 

Below you will find the changes planned for Annihilation and Watchman in Game Update 5.5:

 

 

-eric

I have no fudging idea on where to begin with this...... Why Bioware are you trying to nerf pure DPS classes to oblivion? Marauder is a pure dps class and it is also melee.... You let snipers with insane DCDs running around freely in PVP, insane DCDs mercs running around in PVP, you make classes unplayable in most scenarios in PVE or rather, useless in comparison to other ones. These class changes since 5.3 have been some of the worse stuff from you that I've seen lately, and it establishes that the dev team forgets simple community math. Nerfs DON'T MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY! Are they ever going to understand that????????? Why introduce a new tier of gear(which mind you,was overpowered and could carry you with everything,but hey their decision,not ours to introduce i) with the sole purpose of nerfing every class down again

 

Honestly, I'm just disappointed. Nerf Marauder again, and make fudging Fury the top spec because people said it was useless in PVE. 10/10 decision making, would screw classes again. Honestly seeing as to what happened with other classes, this will get ignored and BW will just see the 1-2 positive comments amidst a sea of rage and justify the changes based on that. Disgusting, I try to defend Bioware with content release rates because of limited resources but I cannot, in any way, justify when they make *SILLY* mistakes because of either incompetence, not playing their own game, not listening to the community, or anything else in a list of a million things we can now say about Bioware.

 

God damnit guys, stop finding a way to piss everyone... It's your game but it would seem that you don't like playing it and you're screwing over people who aren't even vocal here, but you have no idea of who they are, because you probably haven't even taken the time or effort to run around in guilds and trying to see the feedback for this. Last thing I have to say is Congratulations for releasing a new set of changes, a new set of nerfs ( as if Carnage nerfs weren't enough, and I am of the opinion that those WERE justified ) but 6% nerf on Deadly Saber? Are you joking me? Crit chance nerf on Juyo Mastery? Another nerf on passive with Annihilate?

 

Anyone who sees this and is enraged by the changes but doesn't usually post in the forums (like me) please make your voice be heard. Perhaps we can convince them not to go live with these changes at all, or rather a smaller nerf... not fudging 400-450 according to some. I am probably too hopeful to believe that they will listen like they did with Operative Medicine spec, seeing as they don't listen for most of the changes. (Granted, I haven't seen the feedback on all of them, and feedback could be neutral there so BW would go ahead with it anyways). Keith, or Eric, if you're seeing this... Please, reconsider an adjustment on this... Annihilation had only its superior single target DPS going for and now that is getting nerfed badly. Just show the Dev Team the rage that is here in the forums and perhaps they will understand . Sorry Eric, you're probably the scapegoat for everything. But some things must be said because I for one adore this game but I can't stand seeing everything get nerfed, people getting outraged, BW not listening, people quitting. Endless cycle which can very be easily stopped. Have a nice day, gentlemen.

[Trogusaurus]

In my opinion, the nerf to annihilation/watchman is understandable. A guild member estimated the changes and said it is about ~400 DPS less for the top parse on parsley. Thats not much due to the fact, that annihilation/watchman is the top DPS-spec at the moment. Compared with other melee sustained DPS-specs, Maras/Sents have great off-DPS-abilitys, superior DCD's/survivability and in many situations very good raid utility.

The DPS gets sometimes compared with Operative-Lethality. At this point, we have to consider the things mentioned above and compare both classes/specs: Operatives have a minor raid buff, decent raid utility (off heals/stealth rez) but very bad DCD's and survivability. Annihilation/Watchmen will do slightly less DPS then Lethality. It will still be superior versus Vengeance, Pyrotech and Hatred. From this perspective, they would have been right, to tune down the DPS even more, but, they luckily considered the current state of Carnage/Combat and made a fair compromise.

 

So, all in all, a slight nerf to DPS won't hurt anyone. It won't be "impossible to beat harder Ops bosses". Annihilation will still be one of the top DPS-classes. Considering Melee-Burst-classes, they maybe consider nerfing Carnage (again) and Advanced Prototype, that are are on par with some of the melee-sustained classes. However, as long as I, as an average DPS-player, am able to beat the hardest content, the classes are overtuned. I would be glad to see harder DPS-checks (tanking enraged bosses is fun ). It took quite some time, until I realized it myself, but in my opinion, we are on the right way. And when the price for making old content challenging again is some scared off sentinels, then it's worth the cost.

 

What you fail to account for here is PvP. Watchman already suffers from a total lack of ability to kill anything supported by a healer, much less a single Sniper, Jugg, or Sin. Aside from the self-heals (which are also nerfed with these changes) and a raid-wide speed boost, there is nothing this spec can do that Vig, Conc, and Serenity can't do better in every other way. Their DoTspread already trails behind even most melee disciplines, and unlike Vig and Serenity, you actually have to regularly disrupt your single target rotation to implement it. Just like in 3.X, the only comparative advantage keeping this spec afloat in PvP is the pure single target dps, and that is being taken away.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Trogusaurus

[Equeliber]

as if freezing force was a frequent skil lto be used right? is just a slow nothing more a slow from sniper or op deals way more damage i know it cant be a op skill aloowing root and big big damage liek force storm was doing in past but imo there is nothing to be nerfed on guardian on dps spec at least, not even utility's, they should is instead fix the crap heals focused/enraged defense gives.....

and about over buff dps? they did that with ranged not melee

 

Freezing force is the 3rd highest damage contributor in both Focus and Vigilance...

[ottffsse]

I am a bit surprised by these changes, they are not completely unreasonable given this spec was performing really really well in PvE but maybe a tad bit too much when compared with carnage. the Problem I see is that skilled carnage players will have even less reason to switch to annihilation now. The build-up in dps from anni on longer sustained fights will be probably insignificant compared to what carnage ad hell even maybe the new fury brings to the table.

 

In PvP I guess it still will have a nitch place as a dot Tank/heal breaker and still has some better defensive tools than juggs dps or hatred.

[KendraP]

Freezing force is the 3rd highest damage contributor in both Focus and Vigilance...

 

This is what has me slightly worried about the dps changes to guardians, yes. according to dulfy guides it currently does 15% of damage in each spec. So if the buffs do not equal that the 60% nerf could hurt. My honest hope is that vigi remains the same.

 

For the record and what little it is worth, i believe that vigi should be behind watchman in dps because watchman is like the quintessential dot spec, vigi is more front loaded, and guardians are supposed to be more survivable.

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

Freezing force is the 3rd highest damage contributor in both Focus and Vigilance...

the way how you talk it sounds like spam freezing force mostly when other skills are in cd is the way to go......... but if suits to you by all means Edited September 23, 2017 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[FerkWork]

How much of a nerf will this be? 300-400 dps or so?

 

I did extremely crude napkin math and got 300 +- 100 DPS but others may have gotten more precise numbers by now.

[omaan]

What theyre doing to vigi may or may not be a nerf or buff. I attempted to do some math but I'm no theory crafter. My honest hope for vigi is that it stays where it is now. A 60% nerf to freezing force will hurt and I'm not certain the buff to dots will even bring us back to where we are now.

 

As a fellow melee sustained dps player I can understand you being upset about a nerf believe me I feel the same currently. To me it seems that BW feels they over buffed dps and are now nerfing basically everyone down to their "target dps" tiers. If this is the case, I request they recheck their target because I know people having issues with dps checks as it is.

 

But hey what do I know, I'm a tank main who dwebbles in vigi.

 

The funniest thing that i even dont playing anni mara. I just hate when everyone plays the opped classes, and with current nerfs it will be vigi jugg, mm/engi sniper, rage mara and assassin (if not gets nerfed ofc). These nerfs already made carnage, virulance, concealment and io merc USELESS in pvp while swtor doesn't have enough classes to maintain interest in this game. If swtor will have 3-4 viable classes and no new classes this game will become pretty bored VERY fast since players will feel disgusting playing a few specs which are viable...

[Sith-Viscera]

For those that say "this isn't balance" Well do you think they will ever get this pvp system balanced? If they haven't done it by now they won't, not on their own.

 

I suggest if BW can not fix this pvp System of checks & Balances. Its time to get a NEW SYSTEM for PVP.

Hire some one from WoW or some other MMO game that has a working steady, BALANCE PVP System. Or steal their ideas. Frankly i dont care how it is done, JUST GET IT DONE, RIGHT.......

 

Because i do not see this new change being for the better, when i see other classes pulling off some AMAZING Survival moves with 4 or 5 people slashing and blasting them all to hell and yet they hang on by a tiny hair of life and in 3 seconds have full health. No way. But just saying....................

[mjfn]

I am confused by this nerf. From my understanding melee sustained damage classes were supposed to be at 5% above the target dps, whatever that may be. Looking at what I have been able to see that is far from the case. Granted I do not have access to the data that the developers have but from what little data I have gotten this is far from the case. Often burst classes are able to do the maintain or even exceed the dps from the sustained classes. I think many people, including me, would like at least a little of the numbers that the developers are basing these decisions on. Otherwise, to me, it just feels a little random sorta of like the RNG associated with getting new gear in galactic command.

[Foambreaker]

It is not uncommon in software to see people who are struggling with their work Fighting the Distractions.

[KendraP]

The funniest thing that i even dont playing anni mara. I just hate when everyone plays the opped classes, and with current nerfs it will be vigi jugg, mm/engi sniper, rage mara and assassin (if not gets nerfed ofc). These nerfs already made carnage, virulance, concealment and io merc USELESS in pvp while swtor doesn't have enough classes to maintain interest in this game. If swtor will have 3-4 viable classes and no new classes this game will become pretty bored VERY fast since players will feel disgusting playing a few specs which are viable...

 

Next you'll be trying to convince me VGs are op. Go vigi against a sniper or merc and then we'll talk. at best vigi is staying where it is now which is reasonable damage with crap survivability.

[krosswong]

Next you'll be trying to convince me VGs are op. Go vigi against a sniper or merc and then we'll talk. at best vigi is staying where it is now which is reasonable damage with crap survivability.

 

I think you may be on to something here. We had a vigi guardian in our guild that did... Okay damage... But had the survivability of a wet paper towel. I think they've since hopped on the skank train. Choo choo af.

Edited September 23, 2017 by krosswong

[Equeliber]

the way how you talk it sounds like spam freezing force mostly when other skills are in cd is the way to go......... but if suits to you by all means

 

Mate you clearly have no clue how to play guardian well.

[coldfuryboss]

I like it, the damage output of Marauders both Carnage and Anni was quite a bit too high compared to other classes, in particular others in the melee sustained category. Happy to see these readjustments to the sustained damage as it balances out well with these.

 

What are they doing to this game! Ann mara don't need nerfed carnage and fury spec needs nerf there to easy to play

[TrayusWalden]

Do you people even play your own game? Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is that we can't play the classes we want in Hardmode Ops because you keep nerfing them? Do you realize that these dps checks in hardmode and nightmare ops are nearly un-doable AS IS without the nerfs?

 

Whoever came up with the idea of a "target" number needs to be fired.

[Equeliber]

What are they doing to this game! Ann mara don't need nerfed carnage and fury spec needs nerf there to easy to play

 

Carnage is easier than anni? That's a new one. I agree on Fury being easy. It has a very static rotation that is easy to learn.

 

But anyway, ease of the rotation never mattered for DPS balancing and tbh it shouldn't cause it's pretty relative.

[omaan]

Next you'll be trying to convince me VGs are op. Go vigi against a sniper or merc and then we'll talk. at best vigi is staying where it is now which is reasonable damage with crap survivability.

 

Iam currently talking about only DAMAGE since bioware at the moment adjusting only this. Survivability is another matter and will be changed when biofail will adjust utilities.

[BraverDre]

Keep it up Keith. Bring overperforming specs in line.

[omaan]

Hey everyone,

 

Below you will find the changes planned for Annihilation and Watchman in Game Update 5.5:

 

 

-eric

 

Pls consider our feedback !! Players know better what class blance needs! For example - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9421435#post9421435

[DavidAtkinson]

Hey everyone,

 

Below you will find the changes planned for Annihilation and Watchman in Game Update 5.5:

 

 

-eric

 

I think you should reconsider this...

 

It's l unfair nerf to a spec that is pretty balanced. It isn't very overpowered nor is it bad or weak.

 

As a dedicated marauder, I fail to see why this nerf is needed.

[JattaGin]

Dear BW,

 

please stop nerfing everything. Instead buff everything (raise the target goals or whatever).

 

I don't get why you continue to upset and annoy your (less and less) remaining players?

 

What hinders you to raise everything a bit instead of lowering everything a bit?

 

If you raise everything, maybe more players will play HM or NM stuff. Can this be bad for the game? Normal content is easy either way. One of the game's big problems is that the difficult content is too difficult for most players. Hence they don't play it. Wanna have players play more, BW? Nerfing everything won't lead to that.

 

Every nerf you do loses you players! You don't want that (unless you actually want that; which would explain a lot).

 

Nerf = negative reactions (whatever nerfs they are)

 

Buff = positive reactions (whatever buffs they are)

 

In Autumn 2017, Swtor badly needs POSITIVE reactions from the players. Thus BW should stop creating negative reactions. There is no benefit whatsoever in creating negative reactions.

 

P. S. My main is a healer. I benefit from all DPS nerfs (in PvP). But I nonetheless think that all nerfs are wrong. The nerfs have to stop!

[AllisonLightning]

All of this... mind you, I played my Annihilation Marauder for fun and story reasons. I had a more natural grip on Madness as far as if I ever learned to DPS. The DPS checks in this game make many Ops a tale of DPS- when you have to contribute DPS every chance you get in some fights as a healer. I was told because I was getting my Ops achievements in 5.0 that it was 'earned' because of how the Ops have been scaled up. I don't believe gear tiers, nerfs and making old content harder outside the expansion release cycle is right- especially when it's taken almost a year to release two bosses in an incomplete Op.

 

I'm not playing currently for health reasons. My sub runs out towards the end of October and this makes me less interested in coming back next year. I know how precarious Annihilation can be as a melee spec, between my own basic understanding to running HM Ops with them- to finally knowing what it's like to get through a boss fight, see these DPS numbers, heal my little fingers to the bone and then to see the enrage. Now add watching DPS I'm running with one class after another dealing with a nerf because Bioware can't add new content, they have to keep scaling up the difficulty mid cycle via 'class balance'. That's what I can't stand at the moment. It's a lie- they aren't balancing the classes, they're trying to mask the content drought.

 

Marauders were the epitome of balanced as far as DPS went.

Anyone who sees this and is enraged by the changes but doesn't usually post in the forums (like me) please make your voice be heard. Perhaps we can convince them not to go live with these changes at all, or rather a smaller nerf... not fudging 400-450 according to some. I am probably too hopeful to believe that they will listen like they did with Operative Medicine spec, seeing as they don't listen for most of the changes. (Granted, I haven't seen the feedback on all of them, and feedback could be neutral there so BW would go ahead with it anyways). Keith, or Eric, if you're seeing this... Please, reconsider an adjustment on this... Annihilation had only its superior single target DPS going for and now that is getting nerfed badly. Just show the Dev Team the rage that is here in the forums and perhaps they will understand . Sorry Eric, you're probably the scapegoat for everything. But some things must be said because I for one adore this game but I can't stand seeing everything get nerfed, people getting outraged, BW not listening, people quitting. Endless cycle which can very be easily stopped. Have a nice day, gentlemen.

 

They listened because they were outright about to break a healing spec- not simply make it a pain to play, which I've heard it's the most difficult healing class (it was the one I played, so to me it was second nature) but make it completely useless. And they did so at the last moment- and despite the fact that Keith apparently plays the class. When you only have three healer branches, it's much harder to break one without consequence the way they do DPS spec although they'd be doing me a favour if they outright broke Medicine Operatives because I'd never come back.