Shroud of Memory: Unfair?

[IoNonSoEVero]

55 came back for all via another quest not related to the Bonus chapter in any way. Not sure why you think he has to "Stay" dead because people didn't get the bonus HK mission.

 

No, he did not. The only way to resurrect him is the Shroud of Memory chapter, which only those subscribers got. The companion info window for him actually says "there seems to be no way to restore him" or something of that nature. Perhaps you're thinking of HK-51, who can be bought in the Cartel Market.

[Transcendent]

No, he did not. The only way to resurrect him is the Shroud of Memory chapter, which only those subscribers got. The companion info window for him actually says "there seems to be no way to restore him" or something of that nature. Perhaps you're thinking of HK-51, who can be bought in the Cartel Market.

 

That's not entirely true, Arma Rasa is the mission where you can rebuild him which was available if you subscribed on x date, The Shroud of Memory mission was available if you subscribed over x dates, they are not linked.

[IoNonSoEVero]

That's not entirely true, Arma Rasa is the mission where you can rebuild him which was available if you subscribed on x date, The Shroud of Memory mission was available if you subscribed over x dates, they are not linked.

 

I was not aware that two different missions existed for this. But the point remains that HK-55 cannot be resurrected for most people because those missions are gated off to people who subscribed on a certain date. Thus he has not been returned to the story.

[Alssaran]

I either enjoy an MMO and continue to subscribe, or I go do or play something else.

 

Which wouldn't be an issue per se. The issue is that the subscriber rewards weren't necessarily "rewards." They were content supplements because even Bioware did not believe that story chapters could hold broad interest at the time. Or to word it more thoroughly: Bioware was aware that the loophole of just sitting out seven months for all chapters existed. We pointed it out several times. Instead of finding a solution to the issue by providing adequate content inbetween the chapters, they opted to make subscriber "rewards" that are supposed to make people stay in order to "complete" some form of collection.

 

If we would have actual subscriber rewards, we'd be counting days/months subscribed. Every other MMORPG does subscriber rewards that way. As it stands, it is really just a subscriber retention program because the content delivery was less than stellar during that time.

 

Sorry.. but there is nothing sacred about story in my view, even in SWTOR from Bioware.

 

We have entered a logical conundrum then. Bioware advertises this game as a "story focused experience." For over a year, this entire game's sole focus was single player story. If not even the story in this game is "sacred", then what's the point of staying around? Many MMORPGs have selling points. If SWTOR advertises it's selling point is story, but even that selling point is basically meaningless and badly handled, then what's the point of even playing the game beyond that it is Star Wars?

 

If you make a game that advertises heavily on story, you should do your best to make that story as good and as accessible as possible, and not just cut of the ends of story arcs by arbitrary subscriber deadlines. It was a bad move, and it certainly needs to be said. It should be a learning experience for them.

 

I honestly feel you are reacting way too strongly here about what is a disconnected and inconsequential piece of story that does not tie into any of the more persistent story arcs in game.. precisely because it was constructed and released as part of a subscription retention promotion.

 

Thing is: The Shroud is part of a larger, long-term story in SWTOR. It first cropped up in RotHC in a long quest-chain. Then we had hints about his involvement with the Revanite investigation. Then we found his drones observing the Star Fortresses. The Shroud is a long-standing "secret" in SWTOR. That's the thing. The Shroud wasn't crafted and constructed precisely for that chapter.

 

Also, I'm not really blowing this up. I'm just arguing the points, and that is best done without just providing two words like "Lol, no" and calling it a day. It's not the story per se. It is the principle behind that move. Gate story conclusions behind subscriber rewards and call it a day. It's kind of nonsensical. And to many MMO communities and forums around the internet, it's an example of why Bioware's decision making on SWTOR seems "amateurish" sometimes.

 

I was not aware that two different missions existed for this. But the point remains that HK-55 cannot be resurrected for most people because those missions are gated off to people who subscribed on a certain date. Thus he has not been returned to the story.

 

Correct. The mission Arma Rasa was the January subscriber reward for 2016. Without being a subscriber there, HK-55 cannot return to the story. Seeing that he is dead for a good portion of the players, they cannot return HK-55 to the story without finding a way to revive him for everyone.

 

Another bad marketing move if you ask me. Making a companion that some people would get attached to, then taking it away without any influence in a choice-based story, and then only giving it back if you pay extra money beyond buying the chapters. No offense, but the meme that we'd soon get a pop-up window when companions die to pay 5$ to safe them was justified.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Alssaran

[Transcendent]

But the point remains that HK-55 cannot be resurrected for most people because those missions are gated off to people who subscribed on a certain date. Thus he has not been returned to the story.

 

That point stands, indeed HK-55 can't be returned to players who were gated by those dates. I was just clarifying that there were two ways of retaining the companion, if The Shroud of Memory does return HK-55? I know it provides the other droid upon completion.

 

Another bad marketing move if you ask me. Making a companion that some people would get attached to, then taking it away without any influence in a choice-based story, and then only giving it back if you pay extra money beyond buying the chapters..

 

Oh I don't know, it was a pretty linear standard trope of character introduction, and a pretty weak character development with the cutscene with HK-55 running around outside the Gravestone and missions with him stuck artificially to your side, prior to killing him off.

 

I'm not cynical of the writing motivations behind HK-55, or the marketing motivations behind introducing another HK unit into the game. Nope, not cynical at all.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Transcendent

[IoNonSoEVero]

If you make a game that advertises heavily on story, you should do your best to make that story as good and as accessible as possible, and not just cut of the ends of story arcs by arbitrary subscriber deadlines. It was a bad move, and it certainly needs to be said. It should be a learning experience for them.

 

(snip)

 

Another bad marketing move if you ask me. Making a companion that some people would get attached to, then taking it away without any influence in a choice-based story, and then only giving it back if you pay extra money beyond buying the chapters. No offense, but the meme that we'd soon get a pop-up window when companions die to pay 5$ to safe them was justified.

 

I agree - that is what I was trying to get at in my original comment. BW put themselves in a corner with this move. I think subscriber rewards are a great concept, but I don't think story content, including restoring a beloved companion, should ever be gated off this way or offered as a subscriber reward. It's really not the same as a crystal, an animal companion or a new set of armor.

[Andryah]

BW put themselves in a corner with this move.

 

Not really. Some players put themselves into a corner when they refused to subscribe during the incentive promotion period. Instead, they went preferred during the doldrum months leading up to the next expac, which is a common tactic of some players these days and is exactly why the studio offers incentives to stay subscribed.

 

If the terms and conditions were not stipulated by the studio in advance for all to read and act upon, I would agree with your statement. But that simply is not the case here.

 

And again.... when any form of story snippet (and that's all this really is.. a snippet) was offered by the studio that is not just something the is guaranteed by your subscription... they always get this same lamenting declarations of their failure, self painting into a corner, or <insert your pet baseless pejorative at the studio here>.

 

NOT having this subscriber reward in no way affects future story arc access, and that has always been the case with this MMO. In fact this studio has a pretty clear methodology of making sure something missed earlier does not impact things that come later. Just look at KoTET and it's player ability to essentially bypass KoTFE (and earlier expacs too) completely if a player chooses to.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Andryah

[SteveTheCynic]

I agree - that is what I was trying to get at in my original comment. BW put themselves in a corner with this move. I think subscriber rewards are a great concept, but I don't think story content, including restoring a beloved companion, should ever be gated off this way or offered as a subscriber reward. It's really not the same as a crystal, an animal companion or a new set of armor.

(Digs in memory.)

 

(Experiences doubt.)

 

(Goes ahead anyway.)

 

I have this recollection of the streams of messages during the livestream just before Christmas 2015, when they were talking about their immediate plans for the new year. By that time, of course, we had already had Chapters I to IX of KotFE, and they asked the player base something about what they wanted etc., and the stream of text messages switched to a stream of names and "HK-55" in flashing colours as the names went by.

 

So we got HK-55-themed stuff and a way to get him back and a bonus chapter. But it's our fault they were all based on HK-55.

 

If, that is, I have remembered this correctly. (That was the livestream I was also paraphrasing on-the-fly into French for my guild, which was giving me a headache. I am not trained as a simultaneous translator/interpreter, and it's very, very difficult work if the original speaker doesn't know you are doing it to what they are saying.)

[Alssaran]

So we got HK-55-themed stuff and a way to get him back and a bonus chapter. But it's our fault they were all based on HK-55.

 

Full stop. It isn't. It is Bioware's sole decision to make every subscriber reward about HK-55.

 

What people wanted, maybe as some people actually cared about assassin droids, was to get the companion back. They wanted a single companion back for many reasons. Some thought the way he went off was boring. Some liked how his character was very sarcastic and carefree, which was a slightly more exaggerated way of how HK-47 and HK-51 do things.

 

What people didn't ask for was months upon months of decorative stuff all centered around that character. People claim they want Marr, but that doesn't mean they want Marr bedsheets, cupholders, pyjamas, posters, plushies and Marr-faced mounts. They just want Marr as a character in the story or companion, but they don't want months of Marr themed rewards to keep us subscribed. That approach would inevitably lead to people getting fed up with the theme too.

 

There is a point at which a cliché or element becomes overused. For HK-55, it was after we got him back and got a jetpack modelled after him. People wanted HK-55 back. That doesn't mean they wanted all subscriber rewards always centered around his likeness.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Alssaran

[kodrac]

What are you guys complaining about? I subbed for that super sweet HK-55 helmet.

[Qouivandes]

Perhaps time spent on the forums trying to get HK55 could have been spent in game getting HK51? They are, essentially, identical in almost every way. AND there are so many companions now I decided on a theme for each one of my toons to level only comps that fit that theme. still debating on buying through legacy or running the quests for HK51 on my JK who seems to have a love of droids. to date, he is the only toon i have that has entered into the Knights story lines so he has HK55 and Zoom, but he loves his droids.

 

As I noted in another thread like this, I had missed out on the rewards for the 3rd anniversary as well as missing most of the DvL event last summer. I spent a collected month in the hospital last year over two stays AND spent most of last summer nursing my computer back to health. I am not at all salty (finally get to use that word) about not getting the DvL companion. so strange its been a full year ago, now.

 

As a few pointed out in a previous thread like this making this available now will erode the integrity of the subscription incentives. I remember many people exclaiming that they were just going to unsub until all the chapters were available then get them all at once. perhaps that is some of you posting so vigorously, now, in favor of getting this chapter available. There were also a lot of folks stating outright that they were tired of the HK themed rewards or that they had a disdain for HK units themselves that they were no longer going to sub. there was just a lot of ...bad air...at that time.

 

So now its more of the story continuation of a quest line that many havnt completed due to whatever reasons. this might explain the resurgence in getting that chain with a solo mode--which i am all for, btw--but at the same time i now see it as the vehicle to get this chapter opened up because now it will be to finish the story. and then what? perhaps getting the theme'd rewards as drops in the opened up chapter for those that were subbed for those, too? maybe a way to use 100 DvL tokens to get the comp some of us missed? or how about having a vendor that has all of the old anniversary rewards available in case you missed those, too. And the founder title because, hey, we all found the game online, right? or the Cenarion War Hippogryph cause...who got time for that rep grind? or an Ivory Raptor? when will it end?

[IoNonSoEVero]

HK-51 isn't in the story. That's why. For me, it's not about having yet another companion to run around with and do heroics, or having an HK model droid - it's about wanting HK-55 to return to the storyline as an active participant because he was so entertaining.

 

I actually did buy the HK-51 quest access way before I did KOTFE for fun, and enjoyed the ghost ship part of it, but since it requires a little PvP section Ito finish, it will not be completed.

Edited September 18, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Qouivandes]

if you happen to run into another player on Tatooine in that sections...i think both of you will be too stunned to actually do anything but buy what you need from that vendor and then tell tales around the holofire to your grandchildren, "and he was 50 feet tall, glad all in gleaming metal. his blaster was spitting out rays like a sun....um, its something we used before Uliac Emitters...no, they werent as big as a sun just shot rays....no, no...not actual sun rays...no, it didnt melt his armor...it it wasnt an actual sun....no...listen, do you want me to finish the story or what?!?...so there he stood...our eyes locked tight...sigh, no, he didnt bend down. no...i didnt jump or have rocket boots. boots with rockets. no...not those types of rockets...no, they wouldnt have burned me...no, not like the sun...well, yes, the sun is hot, but im talking...sigh...can i finish the story?" Edited September 18, 2017 by Qouivandes

[Joonbeams]

Is this story line unlocked for anyone who met the requirements back when, even if they didn't begin the quest back then (i.e. if I eventually get to it)? I'm assuming the answer is yes, but given other things getting pulled just want to double check...

[Andryah]

Is this story line unlocked for anyone who met the requirements back when, even if they didn't begin the quest back then (i.e. if I eventually get to it)? I'm assuming the answer is yes, but given other things getting pulled just want to double check...

 

If you qualified, it is unlocked for your account. Any existing character or any new character you create will be eligible.

 

Whether you actually bother to play through it though... totally up to you the player.

[Joonbeams]

If you qualified, it is unlocked for your account. Any existing character or any new character you create will be eligible.

 

Whether you actually bother to play through it though... totally up to you the player.

 

Thanks. That's the confirmation I'm looking for. I'll get to it eventually!

[Transcendent]

NOT having this subscriber reward in no way affects future story arc access, and that has always been the case with this MMO. In fact this studio has a pretty clear methodology of making sure something missed earlier does not impact things that come later.

 

Yet here we are, in that exact scenario. A new player deciding to join this MMO, finding the Macro-binocular story arc and finding themselves unable to complete the story pertaining to The Shroud due to not having subscribed at a specific point in time. Remember, the Heroic 4+ at the end of the story arc, is no longer the end of the story arc, it continues in The Shroud of Memory which is gated.

 

(Digs in memory.)

 

(Experiences doubt.)

 

(Goes ahead anyway.)

 

I have this recollection of the streams of messages during the livestream just before Christmas 2015, when they were talking about their immediate plans for the new year. By that time, of course, we had already had Chapters I to IX of KotFE, and they asked the player base something about what they wanted etc., and the stream of text messages switched to a stream of names and "HK-55" in flashing colours as the names went by.

 

Yet I recall a lot of Darth Marr flying by, far more than the "HK-55" being pushed. I'm pretty sure it was already decided prior to the stream, selective bias of the studio.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Transcendent

[CyberDirectorFre]

Perhaps time spent on the forums trying to get HK55 could have been spent in game getting HK51?

 

and then what? perhaps getting the theme'd rewards as drops in the opened up chapter for those that were subbed for those, too? maybe a way to use 100 DvL tokens to get the comp some of us missed? or how about having a vendor that has all of the old anniversary rewards available in case you missed those, too. And the founder title because, hey, we all found the game online, right? or the Cenarion War Hippogryph cause...who got time for that rep grind? or an Ivory Raptor? when will it end?

 

I already have HK-51, but that's not the issue. Hell, I already have HK-55, too, but that's not the issue either. The issue is that ending of the Shroud storyline is now locked to everyone who wasn't a subscriber for that time period.

 

But why would it lead to any of that? Allowing people to finish a story that had been in the game for far longer than the subscriber bonuses had been (and I'm certainly not saying it should be for free, mind you) has no reason to lead to a "slippery slope" sort of effect that also arbitrarily releases other subscriber content. When will it end? I see no reason it wouldn't end just as soon as it starts.

[Andryah]

I already have HK-51, but that's not the issue. Hell, I already have HK-55, too, but that's not the issue either. The issue is that ending of the Shroud storyline is now locked to everyone who wasn't a subscriber for that time period.

 

But why would it lead to any of that? Allowing people to finish a story that had been in the game for far longer than the subscriber bonuses had been (and I'm certainly not saying it should be for free, mind you) has no reason to lead to a "slippery slope" sort of effect that also arbitrarily releases other subscriber content. When will it end? I see no reason it wouldn't end just as soon as it starts.

 

Then put together a coherent and objective suggestion and put it in the suggestion forum requesting that the story (sans any rewards) be released subscriber wide. Worth a shot... but....

 

I doubt you will get your way... because while you may not be able to reach the story.. nothing that is unreachable in any way inhibits your access to any future story arc or content accessible to subscribers. We have been through this before.. and throw away story is exactly that... throw away.. with no other content dependent on it at a later date. The studio has never gone back and made such story snippets available later on. What they have done however is when faced with such charged demands from the player base... they simply never do it again. Faced with such rhetoric and demands from players.. they simply move on to something else and never look back.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Andryah

[Qouivandes]

I apparently didnt hit post a while back, but less daunting than trying to rewrite what I had written is to just agree with Ad. What she wrote has the common thought to what i thought i posted, but mine wasnt as nearly as articulate and had a lot more words. a. lot. included thoughts about an additional heroic at the end of the current heroic that ended with a new criminal mastermind called...The Cerecloth. the bonus chapter would have a small cinematic added at the end that shows an outline of a person laughing as Harvey and Zoey Orchid chase after the pieces of a shattered holoviewer...

[YlliyaXor]

HK-51 isn't in the story. That's why. For me, it's not about having yet another companion to run around with and do heroics, or having an HK model droid - it's about wanting HK-55 to return to the storyline as an active participant because he was so entertaining.

 

I actually did buy the HK-51 quest access way before I did KOTFE for fun, and enjoyed the ghost ship part of it, but since it requires a little PvP section Ito finish, it will not be completed.

 

It doesn't require any pvp... haven't done it in a while but i don't remember ever doing any pvp to get HK51.

 

Also you can just get HK for 1M credits if you have him unlocked.

[YlliyaXor]

(Digs in memory.)

 

(Experiences doubt.)

 

(Goes ahead anyway.)

 

I have this recollection of the streams of messages during the livestream just before Christmas 2015, when they were talking about their immediate plans for the new year. By that time, of course, we had already had Chapters I to IX of KotFE, and they asked the player base something about what they wanted etc., and the stream of text messages switched to a stream of names and "HK-55" in flashing colours as the names went by.

 

So we got HK-55-themed stuff and a way to get him back and a bonus chapter. But it's our fault they were all based on HK-55.

 

If, that is, I have remembered this correctly. (That was the livestream I was also paraphrasing on-the-fly into French for my guild, which was giving me a headache. I am not trained as a simultaneous translator/interpreter, and it's very, very difficult work if the original speaker doesn't know you are doing it to what they are saying.)

 

I'm sure Kephess and Kai Zykken were the top names just like every other stream.

[Ratajack]

It doesn't require any pvp... haven't done it in a while but i don't remember ever doing any pvp to get HK51.

 

Also you can just get HK for 1M credits if you have him unlocked.

 

It does not "require" any "actual PVP" per se, but it does require that that player enter a free-for-all PVP zone on Tattooine--The Outlaw's Den. That said, the player only needs to be in that free-for-all PVP area long enough to travel from the entrance of that zone to the vendor, purchase the HK-51 part and exit the area. Using quick travel essentially makes it a one way trip to the vendor and cuts the time in that free-for-all PVP area almost in half.

[YlliyaXor]

It does not "require" any "actual PVP" per se, but it does require that that player enter a free-for-all PVP zone on Tattooine--The Outlaw's Den. That said, the player only needs to be in that free-for-all PVP area long enough to travel from the entrance of that zone to the vendor, purchase the HK-51 part and exit the area. Using quick travel essentially makes it a one way trip to the vendor and cuts the time in that free-for-all PVP area almost in half.

 

Ah, didn't remember that part.

 

These days all you need to do is move to a pve instance so i guess there used to be pvp involved but not anymore.

[YlliyaXor]

BW kinda enjoys griefing their players, otherwise we would have a single player ending to the Shroud questline, and maybe the rewards could be two companions one named Torch and another named Snare, why anyone would make characters that are part of the promotional material for the game only available in a arbotrary small time interval is beyond me.

 

I'm not super anti BW but they are always inventive when they need to botch stuff up, but nowhere near as reactive when it comes to fixing mistakes, but i guess that from their perspective they never make mistakes, and that's why something like this will happen again, because by definition someone who never makes mistakes can't learn from their mistakes.

 

And it's nowhere as bad i as expected it to be, i honestly expected people that qualify for these time locked rewards to log in just to spite the schmucks who can never have them, regardless of how much and for how long they support the game.