Class Changes: Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

[shyroman]

Don't know about you, but Dps Sorcerer isn't really the class you'd take in NiM raid ^^'

 

But why not? Some people who run nim raids really enjoy sorc dps, who's to say that they shouldn't be able to play it purely because it's specs are terrible except for 2 bugs that significantly boost lightning's damage. I've always had the mindset that every spec should be playable in nim content. Some specs might not be able to do that well on certain bosses (like engineering on bosses that move, or sustained specs on bosses that need burst), but they shouldn't be so far below that you have to be carried even when playing the spec optimally.

 

After these carnage changes though I think it will be pretty balanced (except for it's aoe).

[giorgo]

Well, this is already the case. Don't know about you, but Dps Sorcerer isn't really the class you'd take in NiM raid ^^'

The thing that bother me isn't really the nerf, the spec was op on certain point and this should help making it on the same level as the other «average/fine where they are spec» (Deception Assassin, Annihilation Marauder imo ^^' )

 

Still, I thought they would change the Ferocity window, allowing it to work on the 3 next attack, instead of just 3sec... but I think BW is already late with their next G.U. so they didn't took the time to do it :/

At least the spec didn't got nuked like Merc did, but still Fury underperform Carnage, I hoped that the changes would be viable for it too :/

Making ferocity a static 3 ability buff will cause problems with ataru hits,not going to happen.

Edited August 17, 2017 by giorgo

[SalsaChupacabra]

Yeah I struggle to understand some of the people that disagree, sure I get that players want to run OP specs and see super high numbers, but it doesn't make sense that a burst spec (Carnage) does the same dps as the sustain version Annihilation.

 

It doesn't. Annihilation parsed higher before this nerf and will be more comfortably ahead after it.

[SalsaChupacabra]

Making ferocity a static 3 ability buff will cause problems with ataru hits,not going to happen.

 

Not to mention it would kill the spec's fast paced playstyle and take most of the skill out of it. I do NOT want to play a melee DERP-Merc with sh***ier defensives thanks.

[FerkWork]

Sorry then

What I meant was that if they balance carnage around clipping then the spec would be unplayable for the vast majority of the player base.

 

I'm sorrry but you don't balance around mediocrity thus taking into account the highest skill level. That said, the simplest solution is to remove clipping from Carnage and then we may be able to see some real balance between the 3 Mara Specs in raiding.

Edited August 17, 2017 by FerkWork

[Kyuuu]

I still wait on someone to explain to how "at target dps" mean it overperfomring, any one with brain would read that it performing at the dps it should.

 

cause they said that about alot spec that listed "at target dps" which all seem to be nerfed, yet the ones that + got nerfed and ones that where - got buffed.

 

Annihilation parse higher then Carnage by good 500-1000dps, which why I stop raiding with my Carnage toon, it burst is all it had sustianed was not that great in comparison to Annihilation, and they nerfing the burst which will effect the sustained

 

Even Deception parse higher then carnage, should I expect massive nerf to them? seeing there "at target dps" too

 

So either BW or well ERIC statement about was flat out wrong, or BW is doing what usual do say one thing do something else.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Kyuuu

[giorgo]

I'm sorrry but you don't balance around mediocrity thus taking into account the highest skill level. That said, the simplest solution is to remove clipping from Carnage and then we may be able to see some real balance between the 3 Mara Specs in raiding.

 

Still,parses in the highest skill level (with use of clipping) put carnage below anni on average.

I think you guys make it out a bigger issue than it really is.

Look,I understand your pain.I really do.I used to love anni play style before 3.0.But...

there is no reason for you to want to destroy the play style of another spec.

Edited August 17, 2017 by giorgo

[Glocko]

Don't forget to remove force camo too....and weaken/remove a few dcds Welcome to the Realm of the Jugg.... Edited August 17, 2017 by Glocko

[mrwayn]

I still wait on someone to explain to how "at target dps" mean it overperfomring, any one with brain would read that it performing at the dps it should.

 

People already explained it to you: "at target dps" isn't where the spec is "NOW", it's where the spec is supposed to be "AFTER" all the buffs/nerfs have been done.

 

cause they said that about alot spec that listed "at target dps" which all seem to be nerfed, yet the ones that + got nerfed and ones that where - got buffed.

 

Exactly which of the classes listet at "-" have been buffed? Lightning and MM have been untouched, Arsenal got a huge nerf and viru also got a nerf. And pyro-pt/hatred (listed as +) got a buff, so your statement is obviously wrong

 

Annihilation parse higher then Carnage by good 500-1000dps, which why I stop raiding with my Carnage toon, it burst is all it had sustianed was not that great in comparison to Annihilation, and they nerfing the burst which will effect the sustained

 

No, it doesn't. Anni parses higher by maybe 1-200 dps, on a dummy. In actual boss-fights, carnage is often better.

 

Even Deception parse higher then carnage, should I expect massive nerf to them? seeing there "at target dps" too

 

Yes, yes you should. After this round of nerfs/buffs, deception is left quite a bit over the other specs in its bracket. I'm playing one, so I'm fine with it, but I absolutly expect a nerf in the future.

 

So either BW or well ERIC statement about was flat out wrong, or BW is doing what usual do say one thing do something else.

 

You can like it or not, but so far Bioware did exactly what you would expect after reading their "class-balance-thread", however nonsensical it might be to most of us.

[omaan]

Below are the upcoming changes for Carnage and Combat coming in Game Update 5.4.

 

 

-eric

 

It is a bad idea to nerf such an luck- based spec. Yes, it was over-performing in pve but just because in pve maras can freely dps and their burst window isn't interrupted. On the other side, in pvp carnage underperforms since in swtor every class has many roots, stuns, knockbacks etc. carnage burst window is always interrupted by something which makes dot and fury specs more viable both in ranked and unranked. With dps nerf you guys should have change its rotation due to carnage rotation relies much on luck (currently carnage depends on luck that no one will stun it while in burst window).

 

You just killing this spec by ignoring it's rotation issue.

[supertimtaf]

Making ferocity a static 3 ability buff will cause problems with ataru hits,not going to happen.

 

Oh, you think ? I didn't think about this

 

Maybe make the buff apply to the next three ability instead of the next three hits ? This way it would prevent ataru strike to count as a stack of Ferocity. Even so, I'm sure devs could tweak it so that the Ataru strike gain the 100% armor penetration bonus without the Ferocity stack to be triggered, no ?

[Dewlmenow]

It is a bad idea to nerf such an luck- based spec. Yes, it was over-performing in pve but just because in pve maras can freely dps and their burst window isn't interrupted. On the other side, in pvp carnage underperforms since in swtor every class has many roots, stuns, knockbacks etc. carnage burst window is always interrupted by something which makes dot and fury specs more viable both in ranked and unranked. With dps nerf you guys should have change its rotation due to carnage rotation relies much on luck (currently carnage depends on luck that no one will stun it while in burst window).

 

You just killing this spec by ignoring it's rotation issue.

 

So... You have been vehemently against any further sorc dps buffs, and you also disagree with carnage nerfs. This logic is rather impressive with the facts that carnage does roughly 1k more damage than either sorc spec currently.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Dewlmenow

[FerkWork]

Oh, you think ? I didn't think about this

 

Maybe make the buff apply to the next three ability instead of the next three hits ? This way it would prevent ataru strike to count as a stack of Ferocity. Even so, I'm sure devs could tweak it so that the Ataru strike gain the 100% armor penetration bonus without the Ferocity stack to be triggered, no ?

 

Could it a consume a stack on use based sort of like Recklessness and make it exclude Ataru form when consuming a atack or make it just proc on activating attack abilities alone which Ataru form isn't an activated player ability and hopefully not coded as one for some weird reason. Either would work but it does leave the question on whether to consume on activation or hitting a target which opens another question but for me either would work in removing clipping and making the class more beginner friendly.

[SalsaChupacabra]

Could it a consume a stack on use based sort of like Recklessness and make it exclude Ataru form when consuming a atack or make it just proc on activating attack abilities alone which Ataru form isn't an activated player ability and hopefully not coded as one for some weird reason. Either would work but it does leave the question on whether to consume on activation or hitting a target which opens another question but for me either would work in removing clipping and making the class more beginner friendly.

 

A change like that would make more sense for an expansion-level class rebalancing. I personally don't believe that the increased DPS a good clipping player can put out is so beyond the pale that class mechanics need to be nerfed/changed to prevent it. It's not like there are loads of marauders playing at a Radley-Waters level; I myself can clip pretty consistently but I have no clue how the guy pulls off as many APM as he does for instance. I max out at about 59-60 APM where he pulls off 62. Besides, it's nice to have a spec that rewards player skill like this one does and I'd hate to see that taken away. Without it carnage would be too static.

 

My point is you can't balance the spec around the Radley-Waters of the world or even the better-than-average guys like me, and as things stand an average carnage marauder should be doing about 9700-9900 DPS on a dummy parse after these changes. That's pretty respectable and on target for a melee burst spec.

[omaan]

So... You have been vehemently against any further sorc dps buffs, and you also disagree with carnage nerfs. This logic is rather impressive with the facts that carnage does roughly 1k more damage than either sorc spec currently.

 

The problem is not in dps, but in its rotation. They can nerf its dps a bit since it is really over performing but without changes to rotation this nerf will kill this spec in pvp. Considering that pvp is swtor is full of kicks, stuns, roots, slows, knock backs carnage mara will be useless in pvp with this nerf without rotation changes. Even now this spec isn't doing good compared to rage and annihilation in pvp.

[g_mK]

Carnage is fine and it will continue to be fine after 5.4

[Ardarell_Solo]

I personally don't believe that the increased DPS a good clipping player can put out is so beyond the pale that class mechanics need to be nerfed/changed to prevent it. It's not like there are loads of marauders playing at a Radley-Waters level; I myself can clip pretty consistently but I have no clue how the guy pulls off as many APM as he does for instance. I max out at about 59-60 APM where he pulls off 62. Besides, it's nice to have a spec that rewards player skill like this one does and I'd hate to see that taken away. Without it carnage would be too static.

 

My point is you can't balance the spec around the Radley-Waters of the world or even the better-than-average guys like me, and as things stand an average carnage marauder should be doing about 9700-9900 DPS on a dummy parse after these changes. That's pretty respectable and on target for a melee burst spec.

 

As I wrote in the Fury/Concentration thread: The main problem with clipping in Carnage is that it imbalances the three specs of the class making its sustained spec pointless in competitive raiding.

 

I'm all for having a high skill cap, though. Ideally, a spec should provide consistent numbers for 95% of players and offer the best 5% additional challenges.

 

The funny thing is, BW had that with RNG elements of specs. Those demanded planning ahead for experienced players. BW basically eliminated that from all specs of the game. Instead in Carnage we now have the clipping thing. So now the last 5% are not dependent on RNG and thus theoretically the same for everyone, but instead it's now dependent on being able to play the game without latency problems: There's just no way of playing clipping Carnage on 58+ APM in 16 man content from an Australian server or even 8man in Germany if you're living in the countryside :-)

 

All that being said, I simply hate Carnage's clipping option because I can't get it to work in Ops for me the way I can make Annihilation dot tricks work and I clearly need to l2p! ;-)

[supertimtaf]

As I wrote in the Fury/Concentration thread: The main problem with clipping in Carnage is that it imbalances the three specs of the class making its sustained spec pointless in competitive raiding.

 

I'm all for having a high skill cap, though. Ideally, a spec should provide consistent numbers for 95% of players and offer the best 5% additional challenges.

 

The funny thing is, BW had that with RNG elements of specs. Those demanded planning ahead for experienced players. BW basically eliminated that from all specs of the game. Instead in Carnage we now have the clipping thing. So now the last 5% are not dependent on RNG and thus theoretically the same for everyone, but instead it's now dependent on being able to play the game without latency problems: There's just no way of playing clipping Carnage on 58+ APM in 16 man content from an Australian server or even 8man in Germany if you're living in the countryside :-)

 

All that being said, I simply hate Carnage's clipping option because I can't get it to work in Ops for me the way I can make Annihilation dot tricks work and I clearly need to l2p! ;-)

 

Actually, the RNG thing still works with Deception Assassin, since your burst is triggered by RNG... But yeah, I understand what you're saying, my main problem with clipping is that there is too much external influence that can modify it, like... bad pc performance, or connexion issue. :/

[giorgo]

As I wrote in the Fury/Concentration thread: The main problem with clipping in Carnage is that it imbalances the three specs of the class making its sustained spec pointless in competitive raiding.

 

I'm all for having a high skill cap, though. Ideally, a spec should provide consistent numbers for 95% of players and offer the best 5% additional challenges.

 

The funny thing is, BW had that with RNG elements of specs. Those demanded planning ahead for experienced players. BW basically eliminated that from all specs of the game. Instead in Carnage we now have the clipping thing. So now the last 5% are not dependent on RNG and thus theoretically the same for everyone, but instead it's now dependent on being able to play the game without latency problems: There's just no way of playing clipping Carnage on 58+ APM in 16 man content from an Australian server or even 8man in Germany if you're living in the countryside :-)

 

All that being said, I simply hate Carnage's clipping option because I can't get it to work in Ops for me the way I can make Annihilation dot tricks work and I clearly need to l2p! ;-)

 

Anni RNG was near perfect, carnage... not so much .But let's not go back into this .

 

The trick for clipping that works for me(provided you have a gaming mouse) is to keybind ferocity in one of the scrollwheel buttons and use your forehand to trigger it while using your thumb for the side buttons.It takes a lot of practice though

Latency is a factor but I assure you,my connection is worse than yours,but I can make it work consistently except PvP cluster battles.

Mind you, I have broken 2 naga in 4 years because of carnage and the way I keybind ferocity .

[Ardarell_Solo]

Anni RNG was near perfect, carnage... not so much .But let's not go back into this .

Yeah, some things are just too painful. Gotta let go! ;-)

 

The trick for clipping that works for me(provided you have a gaming mouse) is to keybind ferocity in one of the scrollwheel buttons and use your forehand to trigger it while using your thumb for the side buttons.It takes a lot of practice though

Latency is a factor but I assure you,my connection is worse than yours,but I can make it work consistently except PvP cluster battles.

Mind you, I have broken 2 naga in 4 years because of carnage and the way I keybind ferocity .

 

No good gaming mouses available for lefties, afaik, alas...

[giorgo]

No good gaming mouses available for lefties, afaik, alas...

 

Razer naga has version for left handed.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Razer naga has version for left handed.

 

That's one, but not a good one ;-)

 

...meaning I tried it and didn't work for the way I like to position my hand on a mouse. Thanks for pointing it out nevertheless :-)

[g_mK]

That's one, but not a good one ;-)

 

...meaning I tried it and didn't work for the way I like to position my hand on a mouse. Thanks for pointing it out nevertheless :-)

 

Logitech G900 has ambidextrous design.

[vfreelancerv]

Agree 150% on this ^. Give us the numbers of your "target dps"

 

Absolutely support ^^^

[Theaetetus_Danko]

Hey folks,

 

Sentinel

Combat

• Precision is now stack-based with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds, affecting Clashing Blast, Lance, Dispatch, and Blade Rush, and consuming a stack each time they are used
  

DevNotes: We noticed a disparity between damage output on the Combat discipline from players that could successfully “clip” a Dispatch in a Precision window and those who couldn’t, due to factors outside of their control like server latency. Clipping lead to being able to use 3 abilities affected by Precision during the original 3 second window instead of 2. To remedy this, we changed Precision to be stack based, with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds. Additionally, Precision now only affects certain abilities, making it possible for players to use a less optimal ability during the window without sacrificing a stack of Precision.

 

Although this will look like a DPS loss, Combat’s target DPS has always been calculated without “clipping” in mind, so this change should effectively normalize Combat’s DPS to our target.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric

Hello, would you consider giving Combat 3 Precision stacks instead of 2? The whole Dispatch-clipping thing is about using 4, not 3 abilities inside Precision window. Pre-3.0 Combat sentinels were using 3 abilities inside 4.5 sec gcd window. Post-3.0, with 3% Ataru form and 30% Zen alacrity buffs it is almost mandatory for a player to use 3 abilities inside Precision window too. Considering this, it would be logical to give Combat sentinels 3 stacks of Precision instead of 2, to not cripple burst window on which this spec relies.