Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[myrken]

Maybe its time to hit up the Twitter pages seeing as the sheer volume of Dev responses compared to in their own forums eh?

[joeypesci]

Please look at the numbers now Bioware.

I am not jumping up and down saying "PUT IT BACK". I am saying, however, that now it loses money.

 

Why should I pay 1400 credits on a C6 lockbox search for a box that returns 1000 credits?

Why should I pay 1900 credits for a high reward C5 lockbox that returns 1400 credits?

Remember your design goals BW, slicing is a mission skill for non-crafters. It is a way for them to utilize the crew skills to make money or get gear without entering the crafting world. This skill is no longer profitable as a mission skill.

 

Please consider adjusting it so the profit margin is smaller, not a complete loss now.

 

Please give BW some constructive forum posts on this topic, thank you.

 

 

EDIT 12/28/11 9AM MST

I apologize, I have not been able to keep on top of this properly for the scope of this thread.

 

Also, the numbers I got were a result of previously unaccepted mission rewards vs the new item system. It appears that there is now a higher chance of uncommon T6 boxes doing the Moderate/Abundant missions so the profit margin isn't quite as atrocious (read: loss) as it initially seemed.

 

SPREADSHEET LINK

 

SirFlashington has done me the favor of compiling a live editable google spreadsheet that you can enter your results in. I forsee this getting wildly out of control if not edited responsibly, so if you have constructive feedback that you would like to give to the community and BW, please enter good information.

 

It would be profitable if the people that were using Slicing to just print credits got of their lazy arses and actually went out into the world and picked up the lock boxes on the way. Then they are free. Higher level planet, higher level lockbox. Simple.

 

So leave it how it is.

Edited December 29, 2011 by joeypesci

[Razyr]

I've been running my own spreadsheet over the last two days. It's not as nice as the OP's, but it's gotten the job done. Here's a summary, over two days of casual play...

 

 

Slicing Missions Run: 90

Slicing Skill: 400/400

Slicing Missions Total Profit: $34,128c

Average Per Mission: $379.20c

Mission Discoveries: 11

Mission Discovery Profit: $43,225c (Sold 1 slicing mission for 18k, rest at various prices)

Schematics: 3

Schematic Profit: $444 (gave 2 away, sold 1 cheap)

Most profitable Mission: Taking Back Control (Rich Yield Class 5 Lockboxes, Mission Level 41-48)

 

Open World Lockboxes Found: 59

Total Profit: $55,566c

Average per box: $941.79c

 

Overall Profit for 2 Days of Casual Play: $133,363c

 

I'm ok with that number. Over 16 hours of very casual play (sometimes just sending Companions on missions while I'd go watch TV or eat), that averages over an extra $8,300c an hour. A good chunk of that did come from the Mission Discoveries, and those prices vary from day to day. Worse case, the Artifact level MD's sell for $960 credits each.

 

WHAT REALLY SURPRISED ME is the Rich Yield Class 5 Missions being the superstar of slicing. This one mission blows away any standard Class 6 yield mission by a considerable margin. The best Class 6 mission returned a profit of only $1449c. The best Class 5 brought back $5320c with a MD.

 

I'm not going to argue any points here. Slicing is still profitable for a minimum amount of player work. Finding free credits laying around is fun to me, if it's not your thing we probably don't have much to say to each other anyway.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Razyr

[myrken]

It would be profitable if the people that were using Slicing to just print credits got of their lazy arses and actually went out into the world and picked up the lock boxes on the way. Then they are free. Higher level planet, higher level lockbox. Simple.

 

So leave it how it is.

 

Except your shortsightedness excludes lower levels who simply cannot find enough world lock boxes to even properly level slicing as a profession.

[Wizzer]

Why Smugglers need slicing to be profitable:

 

Luke: So. You got your reward and you're just leaving, then?

Han Solo: That's right, yeah. Got some old debts I gotta pay off with this stuff. Even if I didn't, you don't think I'd be fool enough to stick around here, do you? Why don't you come with us? You're pretty good in a fight. We could use you.

Luke: Come on. Why don't you take a look around. You know what's about to happen, what they're up against. They could use a good pilot like you, you're turning your back on them.

Han Solo: What good is a reward if you ain't around to use it? Besides, attacking that battle station is not my idea of courage. It's more like, suicide. *

 

----------------

 

Princess Leia: It's not over yet.

Han Solo: It is for *me*, sister. Look, I ain't in this for your revolution, and I'm not in it for you, Princess. I expect to be well paid. *I'm* in it for the money.

 

----------------

 

Luke: Well, more wealth than you can imagine!*

Han Solo: I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.*

[drgentleman]

For those moaning about the nerf: quit.

 

Its ok: we wont miss you, we promise.

 

Don't worry, we won't miss you either, or the "game" you insist on continuing to play. Bye!

[Razyr]

Except your shortsightedness excludes lower levels who simply cannot find enough world lock boxes to even properly level slicing as a profession.

 

Absolutely not true. I have started slicing on the Sith Warrior I rolled yesterday afternoon. After 4* hours of running quests, I have found 21 open world lockboxes, for a profit of $2,016c free credits. Not bad for only level 13.

 

*This is my 3rd Sith Warrior, I rolled a Juggernaut & Marauder in Beta. Quests go alot faster when you know where everything is.

[musoCG]

Slicing nerf makes me so sad :( :( i was doing really well now its not even giving me more than i paid for the mission. i guess change of skill is in order :(

[Raximillian]

I've been running my own spreadsheet over the last two days. It's not as nice as the OP's, but it's gotten the job done. Here's a summary, over two days of casual play...

 

 

Slicing Missions Run: 90

Slicing Skill: 400/400

Slicing Missions Total Profit: $34,128c

Average Per Mission: $379.20c

Mission Discoveries: 11

Mission Discovery Profit: $43,225c (Sold 1 slicing mission for 18k, rest at various prices)

Schematics: 3

Schematic Profit: $444 (gave 2 away, sold 1 cheap)

Most profitable Mission: Taking Back Control (Rich Yield Class 5 Lockboxes, Mission Level 41-48)

 

Open World Lockboxes Found: 59

Total Profit: $55,566c

Average per box: $941.79c

 

Overall Profit for 2 Days of Casual Play: $133,363c

 

I'm ok with that number. Over 16 hours of very casual play (sometimes just sending Companions on missions while I'd go watch TV or eat), that averages over an extra $8,300c an hour. A good chunk of that did come from the Mission Discoveries, and those prices vary from day to day. Worse case, the Artifact level MD's sell for $960 credits each.

 

WHAT REALLY SURPRISED ME is the Rich Yield Class 5 Missions being the superstar of slicing. This one mission blows away any standard Class 6 yield mission by a considerable margin. The best Class 6 mission returned a profit of only $1449c. The best Class 5 brought back $5320c with a MD.

 

I'm not going to argue any points here. Slicing is still profitable for a minimum amount of player work. Finding free credits laying around is fun to me, if it's not your thing we probably don't have much to say to each other anyway.

 

Bingo! Someone finally taking into account the money from safes out in the world.

 

People are too focused on just the net gain from lockbox missions (which is still positive by the way) and ignore the safes out in the world, and other items returned. Slicing is decent now, it really was over the top before.

[Kotli]

What about lockboxes out in the field? And pattern or mission item returns? Do you take those into account?

 

Hahaha 80% of field lockboxes are broken and cant be clicked on. As for the patterns and mission items umm no one got any money at all (no slicing credits0 = lucky if you get 1K for them.

[Pansophist]

Bingo! Someone finally taking into account the money from safes out in the world.

 

People are too focused on just the net gain from lockbox missions (which is still positive by the way) and ignore the safes out in the world, and other items returned. Slicing is decent now, it really was over the top before.

 

Except mission discovery rate also appear to be nerfed. And right now, everyone on the GTN is too scared to spend any decent money.

 

Thanks though. You should pick up Slicing since it's apparently such a great choice still. Makes me giggle that a large percentage of those saying slicing is still viable don't, in fact, have slicing. They just feel this way because they felt slighted before without it.

 

One more thing...why would anyone in their right mind go gathering lockboxes when they can do space missions for larger profit / hour than slicing was before the nerf. Great idea.

Fun times.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Anzel]

Dozens of threads. Thousands of posts. 0 response from BioWare.

 

90 days from now they'll all be sitting in their little board room, scratching their heads, wondering why everyone quit. Somewhere... John Smedley is laughing his butt off at all of this.

[Raximillian]

Except mission discovery rate also appear to be nerfed. And right now, everyone on the GTN is too scared to spend any decent money.

 

Thanks though. You should pick up Slicing since it's apparently such a great choice still. Makes me giggle that a large percentage of those saying slicing is still viable don't, in fact, have slicing. They just feel this way because they felt slighted before without it.

 

Fun times.

 

I do have slicing, and will keep it until lvl 50. Good to make money while leveling, and some patterns for cybertech. Then I will change it for underworld for the metals for cybertech, and get slicing on an alt for more patterns.

 

Slicing in a gathering profession. If you go out and play, and get boxes, instead of just standing in the fleet sending your sweatshop on missions, then it would make you money.

 

I still agree with the nerf, it was needed, and it is still a good profession choice. It's just not the "must have" profession choice.

 

Edit to your edit: I do not go out of my way to get lock boxes, they actually pop up and stand in MY way when I'm out playing. It's free money that comes to me. Sounds good.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Raximillian

[LeperJack]

Bingo! Someone finally taking into account the money from safes out in the world.

 

People are too focused on just the net gain from lockbox missions (which is still positive by the way) and ignore the safes out in the world, and other items returned. Slicing is decent now, it really was over the top before.

 

I wonder what'd happen if we brought other gathering skills missions in line with slicing now?

 

The way it looks to me, that'd mean a rich yield scavenging mission should fail about 10% of the time regardless of skill level and return 2-3 pieces on a success. This would be a decent point for bioanalysis as well. If they complain we'll just point out that there's not only and abundance of world nodes, but you can actually "make" more nodes from strong mobs.

 

Treasure hunting will need to fail about 50% of the time and return only one blue item on a success, same with Underworld trading, diplomacy and investigation.

 

That'll be great.

[Pansophist]

I wonder what'd happen if we brought other gathering skills missions in line with slicing now?

 

The way it looks to me, that'd mean a rich yield scavenging mission should fail about 10% of the time regardless of skill level and return 2-3 pieces on a success. This would be a decent point for bioanalysis as well. If they complain we'll just point out that there's not only and abundance of world nodes, but you can actually "make" more nodes from strong mobs.

 

Treasure hunting will need to fail about 50% of the time and return only one blue item on a success, same with Underworld trading, diplomacy and investigation.

 

That'll be great.

Ah, but then you're talking about messing with their professions. That's just uncalled for and unjust, obviously.

 

In truth, though, the entire crew system needs to be reworked.

[Sanchpanza]

I think the realignment so slicing returns the same as the other gathering skills is great.

 

Keep up the good work BW

 

For those moaning about the nerf: quit.

 

Its ok: we wont miss you, we promise.

 

Nice attitude you have there mate... "Don't like something in the game then quit!".

 

Yup, I can see that being good for business. I'm sure Bioware are supremely happy there are people like you on their forums, encouraging people to quit rather than waiting to see what adjustments they make in the future.

 

And FYI, slicing does not return the same as every other gathering skill. The only real use for it at the moment is getting augments.

 

Any other crew skill, you know what you're getting, and possibly a bonus purple item.

 

Slicing, I can send my companion out on a mission to get augments. Not only do I not know what level those augments are going to be, apart from the level range supplied, but I don't know what type or quality I will recieve, nor do I know what bonus I will recieve.

 

Someone with...say... Synthweaving wants to make an item that takes 2 power crystals and 2 underworld metals. They send their companion out on those missions, and unless they fail, they know they're getting the mats they wanted.

 

I can send out a companion on 20 missions and not get the augment I want.

 

Please tell me how that is in line with other trade skills?

 

The only way getting augments was viable in the past was because people could regain the money they lost. Now they're in a situation where they need to grind out money to possibly get the item they want. This pretty much renders the whole point of critting on crafted items pointless, seeing as I think very few people are going to farm for augments when it ends up costing them more money for 1/5th of the stats on an item than the actual item itself cost.

[Raximillian]

I wonder what'd happen if we brought other gathering skills missions in line with slicing now?

 

The way it looks to me, that'd mean a rich yield scavenging mission should fail about 10% of the time regardless of skill level and return 2-3 pieces on a success. This would be a decent point for bioanalysis as well. If they complain we'll just point out that there's not only and abundance of world nodes, but you can actually "make" more nodes from strong mobs.

 

Treasure hunting will need to fail about 50% of the time and return only one blue item on a success, same with Underworld trading, diplomacy and investigation.

 

That'll be great.

 

I agree with that. And actually, I thought they failed already. I ran underword trading missions for rare metals, and had failures in it. The only difference, is that underworld trading is not a gathering skill like slicing, so I cannot make it up by getting lockboxes out in the world.

 

So the other skills also fail, what's your point?

[LeperJack]

I don't think it needs to be reworked, it's actually pretty functional.

 

I do think that perhaps a bit more call for player made creations (to aid in kicking the economy into gear) at low to mid levels would have been good for launch, as well as a more functional GTN...

 

But it is workable as it stands.

 

What needs to be adjusted is some folks mentalities. "I take the stuff I get and mash it inot things that i then destroy to get back evens smaller amounts of things and maybe a new recipe i don't need to go along with the other recipes I bought that I don't need. I am spending all this money and not getting anything back when I keep tossing my opportunities to make money out the window!!! I'm nto making any money FFS and this is WRONG."

[KTheAlchemist]

Because for Slicing , there are two modes on how it can function

 

1) It turns out noticeable profit: The skill is useful, very much so in fact because it is self-sustaining, thus making it extremely easy to level and easy to use: you don't have to use that stupid Auction House, or spamming Trade channel, you just click, wait for a bit, and a money comes rolling in. Unfortunately for all it short-term benefits, it will inevitably lead to hyper-inflation in long-term, resulting in ruined economy and massive newbie unfriendliness.

 

2)It barely breaks even: The skill is pretty much useless, with its only saving grace being bonus mission, schematics and maybe augments. This inevitably leads to massive dissatisfaction and whining from everyone who picked up the skill, for whatever reason, and a heavy hit for the economy in the short-term.In long-term it allows for a healthy economy.

 

Overall, a crafting skill with money-making as a sole function is a really bad idea. Because of how economy in MMO work, it can be either useless or overpowered and ruining economy, with no middle ground.

 

They really should rework Slicing from the ground up. (For example, I would like if Slicing Missions would specialize in Bonus Missions and Schematics, with Augments as a secondary, and the only way how to get Credit Lockboxes would be World Nodes.)

 

Your definition of "use the auction house" is very narrow. They will still buy items on the AH...and that was the point. A lot of presumption is being made regarding the level 50 economy on both sides of the argument, but the thing is, right NOW...the economy is far too deflated to make keeping pace with leveling expenditures without Slicing. There aren't enough max level characters with what people are *presuming* will be deep pockets buying gear for alts etc., leaving those who are still leveling in an economy that cannot support them even if they do try to sell their goods on the AH.

 

And that brings up another point...where was it written that all must "play the AH" to survive? And that *that* makes a good gameplay experience? The only answer here is "because it has always been that way", which is one of the poorest reasons ever to make any design decision.

[Engleheart]

horrible nerf is a horrible nerf.

[KTheAlchemist]

I don't think it needs to be reworked, it's actually pretty functional.

 

I do think that perhaps a bit more call for player made creations (to aid in kicking the economy into gear) at low to mid levels would have been good for launch, as well as a more functional GTN...

 

But it is workable as it stands.

 

What needs to be adjusted is some folks mentalities. "I take the stuff I get and mash it inot things that i then destroy to get back evens smaller amounts of things and maybe a new recipe i don't need to go along with the other recipes I bought that I don't need. I am spending all this money and not getting anything back when I keep tossing my opportunities to make money out the window!!! I'm nto making any money FFS and this is WRONG."

 

Because we must continue to play MMO's the way we've always played them. And this must occur FOR ALL TIME. It's a sad day when "uphill both ways in the snow when I was your age blah blah yackety smackety" talk can actually transfer from previous games to an entirely new one.

 

Clear your mind of presumptions and ask yourself WHY it must be a certain way. Why must playing the AH be the only way to a self-sustaining income while leveling?

[LeperJack]

I agree with that. And actually, I thought they failed already. I ran underword trading missions for rare metals, and had failures in it. The only difference, is that underworld trading is not a gathering skill like slicing, so I cannot make it up by getting lockboxes out in the world.

 

So the other skills also fail, what's your point?

I dunno, my sage is sitting at a quarter of a million credits now thanks to treasure hunting & selling things made via cybertech. (He's level 15 by the way.)

 

My smuggler (who does also have slicing) was sitting at half a mil from UT metals and fabrics (lots of jedi=lots of fabric needed for all those robes. Duh.) until I went on a spending spree last night because the economy took a nose dive when people realized they couldn't buy anything and neither could anyone else. I picked up a whole suite of level 50 epic schematics for 1000 credits each.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure why I'm in favor of reverting the slicing nerf, it's going to make me more money than actually having the skill ever did.

[Raximillian]

Because we must continue to play MMO's the way we've always played them. And this must occur FOR ALL TIME. It's a sad day when "uphill both ways in the snow when I was your age blah blah yackety smackety" talk can actually transfer from previous games to an entirely new one.

 

Clear your mind of presumptions and ask yourself WHY it must be a certain way. Why must playing the AH be the only way to a self-sustaining income while leveling?

 

There is nothing wrong with making money, there is something wrong with making money by pressing a single button. If slicing was kept the way it was, then soon everyone would have slicing, or slicing alts. Then the cash flow in the game would mean things are adjusted to it, and everyone would NEED to have slicing just to get through.

 

Would the game still work? Sure! But it would work under the assumption that slicing is required. If that was the case, then everyone should have slicing as an extra skill, and not as one of their 3 trade skills.

[Aepervius]

Wrong. All gathering professions can use companions to go out and retrieve materials. I'm sure BW made a mistake by letting them do it, right? Since because you believe everyone should go out and 'gather,' it must be the truth.

 

 

As for your secondary point, what are the other gathering professions then? I send my companions out on UWT missions and sell for a profit. That requires no effort either, should we just nerf that too? Or perhaps because it's not in the form of 'credits,' then the limited perspective some people have makes it somewhat different.

Sad how limited everyone's points of view are.

 

UWT/DI/THINV are not a gathering skill. They are a rare material mission skill. You *cannot* compare the two however you wish.

 

The 4 which are on the same level are as Gathering skill :

scavenging

bioanalysis

slicing

archeology

 

From those 4 ONLY slicing made money from doing the mission ! The other you spent more money to get the material than it would get you if you SOLD the material. Sure you can then use the material to craft and sell stuff, but again at more cost and time, and this involve using a crafting skill and more often than not to be sellable a mission skill to get the rare materials. You are downright misrepresenting stuff if you compare the time invested into gathering+getting rare mats+crafting to only gathering(slicing).

 

Now if people are selling the mission material from UWT/DIP/INV/TH very expansively, much more than they cost them, this is a question of offer and demand and a totally different problem to slicing.

 

The bottom line is that now slicing function like the other 3 gathering skills : sending crew on a mission bring you to zero or near credits. To get credits positive you have to get the money from resource points.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Aepervius

[Raximillian]

I dunno, my sage is sitting at a quarter of a million credits now thanks to treasure hunting & selling things made via cybertech. (He's level 15 by the way.)

 

My smuggler (who does also have slicing) was sitting at half a mil from UT metals and fabrics (lots of jedi=lots of fabric needed for all those robes. Duh.) until I went on a spending spree last night because the economy took a nose dive when people realized they couldn't buy anything and neither could anyone else. I picked up a whole suite of level 50 epic schematics for 1000 credits each.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure why I'm in favor of reverting the slicing nerf, it's going to make me more money than actually having the skill ever did.

 

Now that people are dropping slicing because it is "broken", then you should see some competition. Which is also good for the economy overall.