Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[VioletZero]

Trade Good Vendors?

 

They only sell very rudimentary components. Nothing that you could create anything from by itself.

Edited December 29, 2011 by VioletZero

[Pansophist]

To those saying that slicing is now fine, why would you take it now after reading all of this?

 

This is one of my favorite things that has been said in all 170+ pages.

 

Those saying it is fine now wouldn't take it. That's entirely the point. Most of the people saying it is fine are saying that out of bitterness to how it was before.

 

I've yet to see one person near max level saying "Slicing is currently fine. I use slicing as a profession, here is why I prefer it over [insert gathering profession].

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[kyodokami]

They only sell very rudimentary components. Nothing you could actually create from scratch.

 

Got it... well... damn... I appreciate you clearing it up. Just seems that Slicing was the only way to make money to purchase necessary training while actually leveling. Which to me is the big problem because now we have nothing but grinding.

[Pansophist]

Got it... well... damn... I appreciate you clearing it up. Just seems that Slicing was the only way to make money to purchase necessary training while actually leveling. Which to me is the big problem because now we have nothing but grinding.

 

Hence why slicing made the game more accessible for the casual players, which to me is the reason it was placed in the game to begin with. I would definitely like to see a level cap placed on all gathering professions, as well as a smaller nerf in contrast to what has been done.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Yvin
removed quote + reply

[WuphonsReach]

The thing I cannot stand is the lack of communication between BW/EA and the players. The slicing nerf is one example. The entire PVP forums are another.

 

I won't put up with it again. Hopefully if they see enough people cancelling their re-subs, they will actually start listening and communicating with the playerbase.[/color]

 

The very sad thing? We get better communication out of CCP (makers of EVE Online) - and they haven't exactly been popular over the years or good examples of how to communicate with players.

 

Raise a stink like this over something in EVE Online and you'll get a dev post within 24h (unless it's a weekend) and the devs are very engaged with the players. They don't do everything we want and some of their decisions are still ***-worthy, but they do a rather good job over the past 3 months of explaining the reasoning.

 

I suspect that Bioware isn't going to learn the same message until they too lose 20% of their playerbase in the span of a few months.

[RvEijndhoven]

I'm not a casual player, so I don't know - I'd love to hear their feedback.

 

I'm a (semi) Casual/Roleplayer type player.

And having my companions off on a three day mission would suit me just fine (Though my experience with EVE suggests that three days may be a bit too long, by virtue of the 'I can't do anything else besides roleplay until this is done and I don't feel like RPing right now so I might as well not log in at all' principle). But yeah, it gives them something to do while I'm Roleplaying with other players.

 

Which is part of why VioletZero's 'Players should always be strapped for cash so they find ways to improve their game' scares and saddens me.

 

I don't want to have to 'improve' past lvl 50, if I've worked that far I would kindly like to enjoy my achievement and have more money incoming than outgoing, really.

If for no other reason than that I don't want to have (warning: hyperbole) to grind for six hours to pay my repair cost because I RPed an archeological expedition to Tatooine with some friends and a mob half my level happened to get a hit in on me.

[Blackwatch]

And that is definitely a question worth exploring.

 

But we don't have the necessary data to figure that out yet. I am reasonably certain BioWare didn't like Slicing missions being consistently profitable for the same reasons I didn't like it: it was ripe for exploits and large amounts of inflation. It was unbalancing the economy and putting the amount of credits far ahead of the intended amount for well balanced NPC prices.

 

Your view of "reasonably certain" is pure opinion and no more valid than my 4 year old's in its validity on the topic.

 

This is not meant as an insult. I just want to make certain you understand that your opinion is as valid as my opinion... and neither of our opinions have ANY validity, since there is no concrete evidence to base our leaps of logic upon. There is only conjecture. An opinion about conjecture is kinda like a presidential election in jr. high school. It may have something vaguely to do with the situation at-large, but in the big scheme of things, it follows other things flushed down the toilet in it's value.

 

So far, all the data and complaints I am seeing revolve around the profitability of missions. But are we even certain that Missions are even intended to be an area of profit? Especially for slicing?

 

Yes, we are. At least we were. Before this change (nerf) there were 3 types of gathering professions.

 

1. a skill that gathered materials for a crafting skill either through missions OR world gathering. (Note that you had an active choice in this. You either sent your companion for the material type or you clicked on the node of the material type. In other words, you click a plant, you get a bio sample. No guessing, no gamble, no need for a critical success)

 

2. a skill that gathered materials through missions only. (You send your companion off and he comes back with a material of the type you asked for.)

 

3. Slicing. (You could send your companion off for a box of credits, or an item that is NOT a crafting material. Or you could gather boxes of credits from nodes. Neither of these options required a critical success. On occasion you get something extra, but you cannot send your companion out to get that something extra, it just happens as part of a bonus.)

 

A side-note about #2: while some skills could be sent off for other items, treasure boxes, gifts for companions, etc... it remains that IN that list was an option for gathering a material needed for crafting. This is something that slicing does not have now, nor last week.

 

The ONLY logical comparison that can be made here is that Slicing is, and has been, designed to farm credits. How successful it should be is the only real subject that can be debated about this.

 

Whether or not nodes are profitable enough to undertake is another question all together and to be honest: I don't know. Let's figure that out. Sure, it won't be as much as it was before. But I say that we should figure that one out for ourselves.

 

If nodes have decreased in value proportionately with the lockboxes from missions, then due to that proportional change, either BOTH are profitable enough, or BOTH are not profitable enough. The math is simple there.

 

It might even be that a proportional change would make node gathering LESS profitable. I've noticed, gathering bio-samples that as my skill increases so does the yield on my gathering attempt. The plant that used to give me 1-2 green goo per gather now gives me 4 green goo per gather.

 

Is this also how slicing nodes works? I've never seen an increase in the lower yield nodes due to my skill raising.

[Pansophist]

The very sad thing? We get better communication out of CCP (makers of EVE Online) - and they haven't exactly been popular over the years or good examples of how to communicate with players.

 

Raise a stink like this over something in EVE Online and you'll get a dev post within 24h (unless it's a weekend) and the devs are very engaged with the players. They don't do everything we want and some of their decisions are still ***-worthy, but they do a rather good job over the past 3 months of explaining the reasoning.

 

I suspect that Bioware isn't going to learn the same message until they too lose 20% of their playerbase in the span of a few months.

 

I feel obligated to mention (and I will go back and edit my original post, thank you for reminding me) that I was made aware that the Community Posters are not allowed to take a stance on issues such as these. It is reserved for the 'higher ups.' Granted, I still maintain full belief that we *should* hear a response from a developer / community manager. My loathing for the nerfbat being hit so hard so early on after release still exists, but I am hoping that we hear a response within a couple days.

 

After all, I'd rather them deliberate on the subject and come up with a proper solution than a knee-jerk reaction again, wouldn't you?

 

I'm a (semi) Casual/Roleplayer type player.

And having my companions off on a three day mission would suit me just fine (Though my experience with EVE suggests that three days may be a bit too long, by virtue of the 'I can't do anything else besides roleplay until this is done and I don't feel like RPing right now so I might as well not log in at all' principle). But yeah, it gives them something to do while I'm Roleplaying with other players.

 

Which is part of why VioletZero's 'Players should always be strapped for cash so they find ways to improve their game' scares and saddens me.

 

I don't want to have to 'improve' past lvl 50, if I've worked that far I would kindly like to enjoy my achievement and have more money incoming than outgoing, really.

If for no other reason than that I don't want to have (warning: hyperbole) to grind for six hours to pay my repair cost because I RPed an archeological expedition to Tatooine with some friends and a mob half my level happened to get a hit in on me.

 

Thank you for the feedback, that is exactly what I was hoping for! I actually wanted to RP there a little at the end (It's been a long time since I RP'd in an MMO).

 

If nodes have decreased in value proportionately with the lockboxes from missions, then due to that proportional change, either BOTH are profitable enough, or BOTH are not profitable enough. The math is simple there.

 

It might even be that a proportional change would make node gathering LESS profitable. I've noticed, gathering bio-samples that as my skill increases so does the yield on my gathering attempt. The plant that used to give me 1-2 green goo per gather now gives me 4 green goo per gather.

 

Is this also how slicing nodes works? I've never seen an increase in the lower yield nodes due to my skill raising.

 

The decrease was for all lockboxes - those found on the planets as well as those found via crew missions. I have 400 slicing, and to address your second point, there is no increase in the lower yield nodes, nor have I ever seen one (even pre-nerf). The middle level range of lockboxes, however, did not agree with the outer (both high and low) ranges, which was addressed specifically in the patch notes.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[WuphonsReach]

So what's stopping them from leveling up their alts? Making the issue even worse I might add.

 

If you force them to level up their alts - it means that they've put the time in, have higher expenses due to skills / repairs - and they can probably make as much or more by just grinding out mobs in a higher level zone then they could with pure slicing.

 

For the low-end tier 3 missions (Take the Money & Run, Droid Madness), Slicing now returns a whopping 1200-1450 credits per hour in profit. Prince of Fools is running at bout 800/hr and Arranged Accidents is about 1600/hr. That's profit per hour.

 

None of them are now anything special to write home about once you are level 25+. Which, if they enforced the level limits, you would have to be. Even the old values for tier 3 slicing missions weren't all that fabulous once you got past level 25. You can easily make 30-50k in a single night of question past 25.

 

The new payouts are garbage. The old slicing payouts were fine, as long as the level cap was enforced (which would have caused it to scale better).

[Putok]

And that is definitely a question worth exploring.

 

But we don't have the necessary data to figure that out yet. I am reasonably certain BioWare didn't like Slicing missions being consistently profitable for the same reasons I didn't like it: it was ripe for exploits and large amounts of inflation. It was unbalancing the economy and putting the amount of credits far ahead of the intended amount for well balanced NPC prices.

 

So far, all the data and complaints I am seeing revolve around the profitability of missions. But are we even certain that Missions are even intended to be an area of profit? Especially for slicing?

 

Whether or not nodes are profitable enough to undertake is another question all together and to be honest: I don't know. Let's figure that out. Sure, it won't be as much as it was before. But I say that we should figure that one out for ourselves.

 

There is no way hunting nodes could possibly be more profitable in terms of credits/minute than grinding one of the escort space missions, and would require comparable effort. Grinding the space missions was VASTLY superior credit/minute gain compared to slicing missions, it just required more effort.

 

At level 31, the Taspan Ambush space mission yields about 403 credits/minute with NO risk. Slicing with two or three companions (what's available at 31) pre-nerf could not approach that sort of yield, though you could get about 300/minute on average if you got very lucky and always had three of the best missions available at a given point in time. That's not factoring in daily quest money.

 

My point? Slicing was NEVER the best way to easily grind money. Space missions did, and still do, blow it away no contest. The advantage to slicing missions was convenience, lack of effort, and ability to do other things while they ran. If they no longer turn a profit, the profession is pretty much useless.

[VioletZero]

If you force them to level up their alts - it means that they've put the time in, have higher expenses due to skills / repairs - and they can probably make as much or more by just grinding out mobs in a higher level zone then they could with pure slicing.

 

For the low-end tier 3 missions (Take the Money & Run, Droid Madness), Slicing now returns a whopping 1200-1450 credits per hour in profit. Prince of Fools is running at bout 800/hr and Arranged Accidents is about 1600/hr. That's profit per hour.

 

None of them are now anything special to write home about once you are level 25+. Which, if they enforced the level limits, you would have to be. Even the old values for tier 3 slicing missions weren't all that fabulous once you got past level 25. You can easily make 30-50k in a single night of question past 25.

 

The new payouts are garbage. The old slicing payouts were fine, as long as the level cap was enforced (which would have caused it to scale better).

 

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

Imagine this though: People, 3 months down the line, running with 3 or more level 50 alts running all 5 of their companions at all times.

 

It would be a disaster. It just covers up the real issue here. Which is the fact that we have a self fueling mission skill that returns greater rewards than what was put in. It doesn't take much of the player's time at all, just a few button clicks and you're good to go.

 

It's like if BioWare decided to put a credit generator in the game, but the grind to getting to it was really high. It doesn't matter how high you put that grind, people would protest this up the ***.

 

Slicing needs to have some sort of consistent cost that it, by itself, cannot fuel. Preferably the player's time hunting nodes.

Edited December 29, 2011 by VioletZero

[Racheakt]

The problem is not and never was slicing, it was the crappy setup of the game economy by BW. Literaly all credits are absorbed by the game itself, and BW gives you all the gear that you need to get to 50 for FREE (tokens/quests). So of course slicers amassed large sums of cash with no place to put it.

[Cormanthor]

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

Imagine this though: People, 3 months down the line, running with 3 or more level 50 alts running all 5 of their companions at all times.

 

It would be a disaster. It just covers up the real issue here. Which is the fact that we have a self fueling mission skill that returns greater rewards than what was put in. It doesn't take much of the player's time at all, just a few button clicks and you're good to go.

 

It's like if BioWare decided to put a credit generator in the game, but the grind to getting to it was really high. It doesn't matter how high you put that grind, people would protest this up the ***.

 

Slicing needs to have some sort of consistent cost that it, by itself, cannot fuel. Preferably the player's time hunting nodes.

 

This is a great post and explains why slicing was a broken profession. It needs a sink. Plain and simple.

 

The nerf is not game breaking and it is defiantely not going to cost BW any money in the long run.

[Pansophist]

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

I viewed this post and I am glad I did. Those that are 50, how long did it take you to reach it? Better yet, those that are 30, what is your /played time? And actual IRL time?

 

This isn't WoW. Exp slows down substantially when you close in on the 40s. I would have still preferred XP to be gained slower, but again my casual vs hardcore argument comes into play so I am okay with where it is at now.

 

I remember people being exulted when they hit it on the fourth day. Two days? Less? Come now...

 

Edit: I will further my point a little bit. (note: this is based on the idea that gathering professions will be level-capped and character swapping is done at level 50)

 

Were slicing to be nerfed to a reasonable amount (I consider 40-50% pre-nerf to be reasonable, it was nerfed 71% according to the math), then the amount gained by 5 characters swapping with companions would still be vastly less than someone focusing on one character and just simply grinding.

 

The difference here is that in one, they are spending time logging in/out of characters constantly and in the other, they are spending time constantly grinding. Both are time sinks. The latter will almost guaranteed gain more than a ~50% slicing nerf, rendering it pointless to do the aforementioned character swapping. I'd be better off doing space missions at level 30!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[VioletZero]

I viewed this post and I am glad I did. Those that are 50, how long did it take you to reach it? Better yet, those that are 30, what is your /played time? And actual IRL time?

 

This isn't WoW. Exp slows down substantially when you close in on the 40s. I would have still preferred XP to be gained slower, but again my casual vs hardcore argument comes into play so I am okay with where it is at now.

 

I remember people being exulted when they hit it on the fourth day. Two days? Less? Come now...

 

Now look who is cherry picking....

[Phadian_gess]

I viewed this post and I am glad I did. Those that are 50, how long did it take you to reach it? Better yet, those that are 30, what is your /played time? And actual IRL time?

 

This isn't WoW. Exp slows down substantially when you close in on the 40s. I would have still preferred XP to be gained slower, but again my casual vs hardcore argument comes into play so I am okay with where it is at now.

 

I remember people being exulted when they hit it on the fourth day. Two days? Less? Come now...

 

Edit: I will further my point a little bit. (note: this is based on the idea that gathering professions will be level-capped and character swapping is done at level 50)

 

Were slicing to be nerfed to a reasonable amount (I consider 40-50% pre-nerf to be reasonable, it was nerfed 71% according to the math), then the amount gained by 5 characters swapping with companions would still be vastly less than someone focusing on one character and just simply grinding.

 

The difference here is that in one, they are spending time logging in/out of characters constantly and in the other, they are spending time constantly grinding. Both are time sinks. The latter will almost guaranteed gain more than a ~50% slicing nerf, rendering it pointless to do the aforementioned character swapping. I laugh at the idea.

 

been playing on one toon since the 17th and im level 35 and when i ding 50 if im not raiding ill be on another toon on the playtest server but all they had to do was spam flashpoints to their level and warzones and they would get the exp probably

[Vashnira]

I viewed this post and I am glad I did. Those that are 50, how long did it take you to reach it? Better yet, those that are 30, what is your /played time? And actual IRL time?

 

This isn't WoW. Exp slows down substantially when you close in on the 40s. I would have still preferred XP to be gained slower, but again my casual vs hardcore argument comes into play so I am okay with where it is at now.

 

I remember people being exulted when they hit it on the fourth day. Two days? Less? Come now...

 

Edit: I will further my point a little bit. (note: this is based on the idea that gathering professions will be level-capped and character swapping is done at level 50)

 

Were slicing to be nerfed to a reasonable amount (I consider 40-50% pre-nerf to be reasonable, it was nerfed 71% according to the math), then the amount gained by 5 characters swapping with companions would still be vastly less than someone focusing on one character and just simply grinding.

 

The difference here is that in one, they are spending time logging in/out of characters constantly and in the other, they are spending time constantly grinding. Both are time sinks. The latter will almost guaranteed gain more than a ~50% slicing nerf, rendering it pointless to do the aforementioned character swapping. I'd be better off doing space missions at level 30!

 

Are you serious supposed to be a Community Rep?

[Trevux]

My friend and I had this Idea for Slicing.

 

At max skill slicer gets an ability to slice a BOP item to BOE.

 

Crafter with BOP item can pay slicer to slice it so they can sell item on the GMK

 

Let's say the ability to do so is like a 24 - 48 hour cooldown.

 

This allows for profit for slicer when max level is reached, and also allows crafters to be able to share and make money on some of the amazing max level gear they craft.

[MaddiB]

slicing is now... pointless.

[DaerimClassic]

Are you serious supposed to be a Community Rep?

Community Representatives have distinctive signatures and all BioWare employees have special avatars. Pansophist has neither.

[Putok]

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

Imagine this though: People, 3 months down the line, running with 3 or more level 50 alts running all 5 of their companions at all times.

 

It would be a disaster. It just covers up the real issue here. Which is the fact that we have a self fueling mission skill that returns greater rewards than what was put in. It doesn't take much of the player's time at all, just a few button clicks and you're good to go.

 

It's like if BioWare decided to put a credit generator in the game, but the grind to getting to it was really high. It doesn't matter how high you put that grind, people would protest this up the ***.

 

Slicing needs to have some sort of consistent cost that it, by itself, cannot fuel. Preferably the player's time hunting nodes.

 

Why do these objections only apply to slicing and not other mission skills?

 

Will we hear cries of, "No fair! Player X sent his alts 15 collective companions on diplomacy/investigation missions, and game back with 100k worth of blue/purple mats in an hour!!!!"

[Nassegris]

I don’t know what would be the appropriate nerf, or non-nerf of the skill, but all that slicing is good for is making the user money. The random augments are absolutely pointless. For me, not having much time for regular crafting, it was a nice way to be able to buy a few of the things I wanted.

 

Now the skill is utterly and absolutely useless. It doesn’t supply anything that anyone has any need for. It doesn’t give money nor does it offer potential for money. It doesn’t earn me anything valuable that I might sell. A few recipes that are next to worthless on the market and a huge gamble with some augments that no one buys.

 

For those of us that didn’t have several characters that did nothing but sit around and do slicing, it’s a slap in the face. I don’t need to make massive amounts of money with it – I wouldn’t have minded a level cap on the skill nor the amount made on each run to be lowered, but in its present state, it’s useless and unlike the other gathering skills, without an actual point.

 

They might as well remove the crew skill if this is what it’s going to be like. Yikes. Wasting money and time to make LESS money than I put into it?

[Vilda]

Why do these objections only apply to slicing and not other mission skills?

 

Will we hear cries of, "No fair! Player X sent his alts 15 collective companions on diplomacy/investigation missions, and game back with 100k worth of blue/purple mats in an hour!!!!"

 

Maybe because that materials are not worth that much a if so, it depends if it sells at that prize at GTC. Which will not.

 

Face it people, AFK credit generator was simply wrong and it had to be addressed.

[Pansophist]

Are you serious supposed to be a Community Rep?

 

Er, no. When you're making a post, you can choose a text color by selecting the 'A' drop-down. I choose Cyan because I like the color, and I think it makes posts easier to read. I do not intend to mislead anyone, my apologies. For reference, here is what a Community Rep's post looks like (scroll to the bottom): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=91503&page=164

 

Why do these objections only apply to slicing and not other mission skills?

 

Will we hear cries of, "No fair! Player X sent his alts 15 collective companions on diplomacy/investigation missions, and game back with 100k worth of blue/purple mats in an hour!!!!"

I don't know how to say this to be politically correct, but the main reason is the same as what I previously quoted.

 

The people saying slicing is currently fine will not ever pick up slicing in its current form - they already leveled up other professions. They felt slighted due to what they felt was an advantage that slicers got pre-nerf, and therefore feel the nerf is justified.

 

If you apply what they are saying to the gathering skills they pursue well, then, I doubt most of them would be very happy with you

 

 

Maybe because that materials are not worth that much a if so, it depends if it sells at that prize at GTC. Which will not.

 

Face it people, AFK credit generator was simply wrong and it had to be addressed.

 

Actually, some of those materials (read: have potential) to be worth quite a bit. Right now, that potential is not met due to the lack of trading which is due to the slicing nerf. The players who were level 15-25 complaining about slicing are now levels 25-40 and realizing how expensive stuff is getting. They are unable to sell their wares to level 50s because these level 50s are struggling to afford their repairs and just finished paying for their *extremely expensive* skill upgrades 46-50, let alone let the budget allow for superfluous spending.

 

TH currently is a 'credit generator' as you put it. It's just not such to the degree that slicing was, and everyone is telling everyone to keep quiet about it for fear of another nerfbat.

 

 

My friend and I had this Idea for Slicing.

 

At max skill slicer gets an ability to slice a BOP item to BOE.

 

Crafter with BOP item can pay slicer to slice it so they can sell item on the GMK

 

Let's say the ability to do so is like a 24 - 48 hour cooldown.

 

This allows for profit for slicer when max level is reached, and also allows crafters to be able to share and make money on some of the amazing max level gear they craft.

Interesting idea, I somewhat like the aspect of turning a BoP into a BoE. Part of me hates it, but I think that part is largely due to my prior MMO experience. It could certainly be an interesting mechanic, and would still require several 'guild slicers'

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Golarz]

It doesn't take long to power level a character to 50. Maybe like 2 to 3 days. Less if you are very experienced.

 

Imagine this though: People, 3 months down the line, running with 3 or more level 50 alts running all 5 of their companions at all times.

 

It would be a disaster. It just covers up the real issue here. Which is the fact that we have a self fueling mission skill that returns greater rewards than what was put in. It doesn't take much of the player's time at all, just a few button clicks and you're good to go.

 

It's like if BioWare decided to put a credit generator in the game, but the grind to getting to it was really high. It doesn't matter how high you put that grind, people would protest this up the ***.

 

Slicing needs to have some sort of consistent cost that it, by itself, cannot fuel. Preferably the player's time hunting nodes.

 

Yeah but you can do that with any other profession. Lets take Underworld Tradeing witch is supporting 3 crafts. Now make 7 alts, each of them Sith Warrior. My guild mate got his third companion at level 18. Power level UT to 400 on each of those and you have now 21 companions grinding grade 6 metals and fabrics. Park them at GTN in Dromund Kass and you have yourself a ton of money with minimal effort, just like with sliceing.

Sure, you have to put mats on sale but your net gain is much higer. And I can asure you that sooner or later someone will buy your mats, a crafter lacking 1 Mandalorian Steel or his guild mate who is buying mats for new armor.

So, should BioWare nerf UT now? Just becouse You can do this ?