Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[thebreau]

If having a army of Alts doing slicing missions caused BW to nerf slicing, why not make it a logical nerf. A nerf that doesn't destroy the profession. I spent hours building my slicing skill to 400. Now I'm faced with the decision to change skills and lose all that time. Just to find out that BW thought things over and fix current problem. What am I to do?

 

Wouldn't allowing one alt character per server be a easier soluion?

 

Thrawm

[Pansophist]

If having a army of Alts doing slicing missions caused BW to nerf slicing, why not make it a logical nerf. A nerf that doesn't destroy the profession. I spent hours building my slicing skill to 400. Now I'm faced with the decision to change skills and lose all that time. Just to find out that BW thought things over and fix current problem. What am I to do?

 

Wouldn't allowing one alt character per server be a easier soluion?

 

Thrawm

 

An easier solution would be finally putting level caps. Then, the amount of time to get alts to 50 and have 400 slicing would not be worth it at all, especially when you can just farm space missions or grind for much more gain.

[Raximillian]

An easier solution would be finally putting level caps. Then, the amount of time to get alts to 50 and have 400 slicing would not be worth it at all, especially when you can just farm space missions or grind for much more gain.

 

If the expenses at 50 are much higher, and high level slicing was balanced for lvl 50, then yes, this would be a good solution. I'm not at lvl 50 yet (still 24), and was running lvl 5 lockboxes before the nerf, and it seems I was getting too much money for my level :S

[LeperJack]

You are playing the AH, that's great. Your income is dependent on the current supply demand, and you have to analyze and work for that money. That's perfectly fine, and you should make more money when you put your effort to it.

At present, I've put less effort into it today than I have responding to you posts (so, you know... not much at all. ) and made another 20k in confirmed profits already.

 

By confirmed profit I mean "I spent 40k on running gathering missions already and have had 60k in sales only from the things I put on the market today, and have a large number of things that have yet to sell on the market as well as more in my cargo hold I am holding back to avoid flooding the market."

 

None of this profit involved slicing buy the way.

 

I did not make much effort, picked up slicing at lvl 15, and 9 levels later, had well 100K creds. And I was "wasting" my materials, by making stuff and crushing it. I now have a bunch of blue (although worthless) recipes. I like that.

Congratulations. If you'd picked up UT and sold off the excess blues instead, you could have half a mil or more despite your destructive tendencies.

 

It's fine if you put effort for your money. You should get lots of it, so congratulations.

Except that I'm now making far less for that effort. not because they stopped ME from slicing, but because they stopped my CUSTOMERS from slicing. they are unwilling to spend money, so my crafting skills and gathering skills have also sharply decreased in value. I'm working twice as hard to bring in half as much. That's not "fine."

 

It's not fine it it comes with the press of a button. No effort at all. Does it make slicing the best of the best of the best? not for everyone, but for most people, it did. And once people start picking up on it, it becomes a "needed" skill, and the game is balanced around it. Should the game be balanced around one skill? no.

Okay, well then lets nerf all the gathering missions. Lets nerf all of the mission only gathering skills, too. Now we'll have underworld trading nodes, because they make SUBSTANTIALLY MORE MONEY from seconds of added effort.

 

Let me lay some math on you.

 

Pre-nerf slicing: I click a button to send out a companion to slice on two half hour missions. Result is about 6000 credits in profit. (~100 credits per minute average)

 

Pre-nerf Underworld Trading: (UT wasn't nerfed, only its customer base so i now make less)I click a button to send out a companion to slice on two half hour missions. Modal result is 16 items that sell reliably for 750-1k each. That's 12,000-16,000 credits per hour, with an average result around 14.5k from what I received.

 

My extra step on that alt was standing next to a GTN instead of in the cantina where I can hear the music, and occasionally listing something. For that one extra step (less than a minute per hour of extra work) I reaped more than 200% of what I would have from slicing pre-nerf.

 

I'm not even going to go into what happens when I craft, but even with my own collector's tendencies and buying up cheap patterns I cannot use yet, I make gathering look like chump change.

[DustomaticGXC]

I don't think people understand that Slicing income is not only capped, the relative value of that income goes down over the course of TORs lifetime as inflation shrinks the value of credits.

 

Three months from now, when everybody has a level 50 main, all their bag space, all of their cargo hold tabs, all their skills, all their mount training, and a million credits sitting around, things that take 45 minutes to aquire with, for instance, Underworld Trading, and sell right now for 5k credits will be selling for $25k credits... While a Slicing mission that takes 35 minutes to complete now that produces 4k profit now would still be making 4k profit then.

 

Except now that Slicing mission makes 450 credits.

 

How do all you pseudo-economists not see this?

[TheBoredfish]

My final input on the matter:

 

There are two places you spend money in this game.

 

Static costs that will not change (training, vendors, skills)

 

Dynamic costs that change over time (player trade - crafted goods and the like)

 

 

As slicing increased the total wealth of the player base it would reach a point at which the income it generated would be so insignificant to the total amount that was in circulation that it would be worthless on its own.

 

Crafted good would continue to increase in value and never deflate due to the large demand for them and the surplus of credits.

 

With the nerf slicing has/will reach a point that it is no longer worth the time for the credits that it returns reaching the plateau of it's total credit generation much earlier. With the cut of credits going into the economy everything had it's prices drop to the point that it's no longer profitable to craft at all. People are scrimping and saving for their trainings and speeder skills as opposed to buying that piece of loot of the market place because "My gear is good enough"

 

How can you tell that the market is in a terrible way? You can't sell mats for over the cost of the mission, which in and of it's sell tells you that the market needs to inflate.

 

Inflation in and of it's self is not a bad thing. The people QQing about slicing have shot themselves in the foot. I know I'm not buying anything on the GTN because I don't have the money to do so while keeping up with my skills, crafting training, speeder training, And repairs every level.

 

The slicing nerf was unnecessary because it would balance it's self out eventually. The damned game has been out two weeks including the prestart. They should have waited a month before nerfing anything to get a better idea of what is going to happen.

 

 

Prediction of what would have happened had they not nerfed Slicing:

 

After a week or two of people changing skills over to slicing there would be money everywhere and it would be burning a hole in their pocket. The people that stuck with the crafting professions would be able to charge exorbitant prices for the lowest of goods and take a fair chunk of that change for themselves.

 

The slicers having no trade skills to turn out their own equipment would then be forced to go to the GTN to pick up new equipment or craft it on an alt. They would still have to send money to the alt to cover mission costs and whatever else, further spreading the wealth.

 

After two or three weeks of mass money generation from slicing it would plateau and would no longer be worth the time invested, much like it is now. Not that it wouldn't turn a profit but the profit would be so insignificant compared to the amount of credits in circulation that they could make more money other ways such as Crafting goods and selling them their selves. slicing would stop until it became a decent way to generate profit again.

 

 

If this is a portent to how BW is going to take care of problems and not take the time and effort to see if a change is going to upset balance then I don't know if I want to be around for the next patch. Wait till people start QQing over how buff a class is and see bioware nerf it into oblivion next.

 

My suggestion? Put slicing how it was, wait till the end of next month, if people are still complaining about it's money generation nerf it then. BW jumped the gun and stunted the growth of the economy in the game due to an overzealous reaction to a number of people who had very limited knowledge of the outcome of slicing 'needing' nerfed.

 

Slicing didn't need to be 'fixed' it would balance out over time and then would put pressure on Bioware to come up with more things for the players to spend money on.

 

TL;DR: Spiders rely on a combination of muscle and hemolymph (blood) pressure to move their legs. Some joints in spider legs lack extension muscles entirely.

Edited December 29, 2011 by TheBoredfish

[Satene]

If you work for it, and can fight supply/demand, you deserve the money.

 

You can never win a fight with supply/demand. It is a law like gravity and affects EVERYTHING. Including whatever is used for money. Better by far to USE your knowledge of supply/demand to increase your personal supply of something that is (or will be) in demand.

[TheBoredfish]

I don't think people understand that Slicing income is not only capped, the relative value of that income goes down over the course of TORs lifetime as inflation shrinks the value of credits.

 

Three months from now, when everybody has a level 50 main, all their bag space, all of their cargo hold tabs, all their skills, all their mount training, and a million credits sitting around, things that take 45 minutes to aquire with, for instance, Underworld Trading, and sell right now for 5k credits will be selling for $25k credits... While a Slicing mission that takes 35 minutes to complete now that produces 4k profit now would still be making 4k profit then.

 

Except now that Slicing mission makes 450 credits.

 

How do all you pseudo-economists not see this?

 

Because they don't know what they are talking about. They haven't looked at the big picture.

[Pansophist]

If the expenses at 50 are much higher, and high level slicing was balanced for lvl 50, then yes, this would be a good solution. I'm not at lvl 50 yet (still 24), and was running lvl 5 lockboxes before the nerf, and it seems I was getting too much money for my level :S

 

Your repairs will start near 25k. The more epic items you receive, you'll notice upwards of 40-50k repair bills.

 

This was the problem originally. Level 15-30s kept seeing all the slicers with what they considered massive amounts of money. Thing is, it was - to them. At level 50, however...it isn't. There are better ways to make money at 50, slicing is just an easier way for the casual players to do it.

 

[Edit] there are better ways to make money, period. As many before me have mentioned, sitting next to the GTN and going UWT is more profitable than slicing. But that didn't need a nerf because you had to post items for sale then run to the mailbox to receive them. Right?[/EDIT]

 

Adding in level caps eliminates the incessant bragging by lowbies of the amount of credits they have. Of course, the medium level lockboxes still needed a nerf, and I still maintain that slicing as a whole needed a nerf (although I was going for 40-50% nerf, not 71% - or perhaps, as someone mentioned, much longer time frames, reducing the credits / hr gain)

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[Raximillian]

At present, I've put less effort into it today than I have responding to you posts (so, you know... not much at all. ) and made another 20k in confirmed profits already.

 

By confirmed profit I mean "I spent 40k on running gathering missions already and have had 60k in sales only from the things I put on the market today, and have a large number of things that have yet to sell on the market as well as more in my cargo hold I am holding back to avoid flooding the market."

 

None of this profit involved slicing buy the way.

 

Congratulations. If you'd picked up UT and sold off the excess blues instead, you could have half a mil or more despite your destructive tendencies.

 

Except that I'm now making far less for that effort. not because they stopped ME from slicing, but because they stopped my CUSTOMERS from slicing. they are unwilling to spend money, so my crafting skills and gathering skills have also sharply decreased in value. I'm working twice as hard to bring in half as much. That's not "fine."

 

Okay, well then lets nerf all the gathering missions. Lets nerf all of the mission only gathering skills, too. Now we'll have underworld trading nodes, because they make SUBSTANTIALLY MORE MONEY from seconds of added effort.

 

Let me lay some math on you.

 

Pre-nerf slicing: I click a button to send out a companion to slice on two half hour missions. Result is about 6000 credits in profit. (~100 credits per minute average)

 

Pre-nerf Underworld Trading: (UT wasn't nerfed, only its customer base so i now make less)I click a button to send out a companion to slice on two half hour missions. Modal result is 16 items that sell reliably for 750-1k each. That's 12,000-16,000 credits per hour, with an average result around 14.5k from what I received.

 

My extra step on that alt was standing next to a GTN instead of in the cantina where I can hear the music, and occasionally listing something. For that one extra step (less than a minute per hour of extra work) I reaped more than 200% of what I would have from slicing pre-nerf.

 

I'm not even going to go into what happens when I craft, but even with my own collector's tendencies and buying up cheap patterns I cannot use yet, I make gathering look like chump change.

 

Ok, now I get it... You do not really care if slicing is broken or not, you are worried that your income will suffer. So you were getting lots of money, and that lots of money was coming from slicers. Isn't that how inflation begins? Lots of money coming from somewhere? People accumulating large amounts of money?

 

Just because you do not directly use slicing, does not mean it was balanced.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Raximillian

[The_Archon]

I have spent hours now over the past several days reading thread after thread on the topic. I have come to the conclusion that Bioware needs to issues some kind of statement about this just to end all the damn QQ.

 

Problem is we do not know the reasoning behind the nerf. Most seem to say its because people were crying on the forums about that, fact is we do not know. None of us. Not one player knows the real reason and what it was based off of.

 

The patch notes say it was nerfed to bring it into line with the other gathering skills.

 

Which can only mean that it was adjusted downward in sheer profitability because it was far and away disparate from the others... which just happens to be what people were complaining about, and why ex-slicers are now dreaming up fantastic economy strategies trying to justify the easymode credits.

 

"It caps at 50!" Meaningless, so does everyone else's.

"It costs me money to run missions!" Welcome to everyone else's crafting mechanic.

"Look at this spreadsheet!" Nodes out in the world are left off, the most profitable part of gathering.

 

So we kinda do already know the reason for the nerf... it's obvious in fact: slicing was way overpowered.

[TheBoredfish]

Ok, now I get it... You do not really care if slicing is broken or not, you are worried that your income will suffer. So you were getting lots of money, and that lots of money was coming from slicers. Isn't that how inflation begins? Lots of money coming from somewhere? People accumulating large amounts of money?

 

Just because you do not directly use slicing, does not mean it was balanced.

 

The problem being now that the market as a whole is underinflated.

 

Slicing worked on a 'diminishing returns' effect, which you would learn about in any economics class. I suggest you go take one.

[PhobosAnomaly]

I just wanted to post my few cents.

 

People who do slicing do 1 thing. They create credits for the market.

 

If not they would be out farming.

 

But lets look at this from the Companies point of view. They want people to WANT to play the game, and what will do that?

Well we know what will NOT do that , the patch 1.0.1 slicing nerf.

Before it was BARELY acceptable.

 

CONSIDER PATCH 1.0.1 Slicing review:

PROS of slicing.

You don't have to gather mats.

You get credits.

You get missions for other crew skills.

You get augments.

 

CONS of slicing.

Low credit yields turns it into a no go once you are broke.

There are NO crew skills that affect slicing.

You can have 10,000 Affection and return with nothing, and your Droid with 0 affection will return with a Purple 340 mission and a green lockbox.

The rewards are dismal at BEST

 

Pre 1.0.1....

The rewards kept you going, and you could pick up the SLACK of having a non-producing skill with credits.

 

 

Fix slicing - REMEMBER it is a NON-producing skill. If you want slicing to work you need to increase the yields.

 

Treasure hunting rewards are worth more than Slicing rewards.

You can get a chest from treasure hunting with credits and an item in 1 box.

The item can sell on the auction for 2k credits for example at a LOW level plus the credits in the box will almost cover the cost of the mission.

So, basically just get rid of slicing? waste of time.

[Raximillian]

You can never win a fight with supply/demand. It is a law like gravity and affects EVERYTHING. Including whatever is used for money. Better by far to USE your knowledge of supply/demand to increase your personal supply of something that is (or will be) in demand.

 

Ah, but your ever faithful, unbreakable law does not affect slicing because it is a fixed income. While you can look for something to supply the great demand out there, slicing does not change.

 

That's part of the issue with slicing. Any tradeskill that gives money will be inherently broken.

 

It either losses money (bad for you), breaks even (not really good), or makes money (free money press?). They should change slicing so it gives something else and not money lockboxes.

[Raximillian]

The problem being now that the market as a whole is underinflated.

 

Slicing worked on a 'diminishing returns' effect, which you would learn about in any economics class. I suggest you go take one.

 

That is correct, I'm well aware of that. the "lots" of money that it was making will not be worth much 6 months or 1 year from now when the economy shifts and the value of credits change.

 

They will then need to re-balance slicing again. Probably every 2-3 months to keep it working ok. That is one of the major flaws with slicing. It should not give money directly, it should give something that can be marketable, something that fits into the economy better.

[Sticksabbi]

That's silly. Slicing returns are fixed, finite, and capped. They are also less than returns from other sources, including every other gathering skill, selling crafted items instead of reverse engineering them, space missions, grinding, running quests, PvP...

 

That's true to a point but the key difference is it's restricted. Assuming a harvesting best case scenario, a server will only produce fixed amount of resources from nodes per day. Barring missions (I bar them because I think everyone would agree that resources obtained from missions generally tend to be a zero sum game. Meaning time invested isn't worth return obtained).

 

No matter HOW many people you have online harvesting from nodes there is a finite limit to the amount of resources that server will produce. Now with missions you throw that limit out the window completely. Because that becomes a linear growth function with the rate of growth being determined by the number of players using said skill. Now a worst case scenario your looking at a O(n^x) where n= number of players on a server and x = number of characters that a player can make on said server. Granted that's a worst case scenario but any programmer will tell you you want to avoid any exponential growth function at all.

 

Besides all of that, Resource gathering from other crew skills the resources eventually get destroyed and taken out of the system. I.e. crafting. Creation of credits is a different beast. Credits are rarely destroyed. I know what your thinking, "what about crew skills, speeders, repairs, etc..." Anything with a fixed cost or a cost that does not depend on the availability of credits can be ignored as time tends to infinity. Since supply of credits will, even in an ideal economy, increase over time. Resources only have value if they are consumed. Credits value is determined by the amount present in the system

 

If the rate of growth of credits in the system exceeds the fixed rate of production/consumption of resources you have inflation. Which in itself isn't terrible. If the disparity is too high that leads to hyper-inflation which is very bad.

 

I'm something of a science and math geek so I often fail at properly conveying my idea's to others so I hope this is a clearer explanation of my position.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sticksabbi

[Pansophist]

The patch notes say it was nerfed to bring it into line with the other gathering skills.

 

Which can only mean that it was adjusted downward in sheer profitability because it was far and away disparate from the others... which just happens to be what people were complaining about, and why ex-slicers are now dreaming up fantastic economy strategies trying to justify the easymode credits.

 

"It caps at 50!" Meaningless, so does everyone else's.

"It costs me money to run missions!" Welcome to everyone else's crafting mechanic.

"Look at this spreadsheet!" Nodes out in the world are left off, the most profitable part of gathering.

 

So we kinda do already know the reason for the nerf... it's obvious in fact: slicing was way overpowered.

 

I just feel obligated to mention (again, since you continue to ignore this point) that other gathering professions far exceeded the profits slicing gained PRE-NERF. UWT is the best example, obviously. Still is.

 

Get to 50, please. You're ranting on these forums, but you have no idea what the game is like past your level.

 

 

 

That's true to a point but the key difference is it's restricted. Assuming a harvesting best case scenario, a server will only produce fixed amount of resources from nodes per day. Barring missions (I bar them because I think everyone would agree that resources obtained from missions generally tend to be a zero sum game. Meaning time invested isn't worth return obtained).

 

No matter HOW many people you have online harvesting from nodes there is a finite limit to the amount of resources that server will produce. Now with missions you throw that limit out the window completely. Because that becomes a linear growth function with the rate of growth being determined by the number of players using said skill. Now a worst case scenario your looking at a O(n^x) where n= number of players on a server and x = number of characters that a player can make on said server. Granted that's a worst case scenario but any programmer will tell you you want to avoid any exponential growth function at all.

 

Besides all of that, Resource gathering from other crew skills the resources eventually get destroyed and taken out of the system. I.e. crafting. Creation of credits is a different beast. Credits are rarely destroyed. I know what your thinking, "what about crew skills, speeders, repairs, etc..." Anything with a fixed cost or a cost that does not depend on the availability of credits can be ignored as time tends to infinity. Since supply of credits will, even in an ideal economy, increase over time. Resources only have value if they are consumed. Credits value is determined by the amount present in the system

 

I'm something of a science and math geek so I often fail at properly conveying my idea's to others so I hope this is a clearer explanation of my position.

 

By your logic we should get rid of space missions too then, huh? I receive more credits / hour doing space missions than I did pre-nerf slicing.

 

You may be somewhat of a math and science geek, but the perspective shared by that economic viewpoint is extremely limited.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[TheBoredfish]

Ah, but your ever faithful, unbreakable law does not affect slicing because it is a fixed income. While you can look for something to supply the great demand out there, slicing does not change.

 

That's part of the issue with slicing. Any tradeskill that gives money will be inherently broken.

 

It either losses money (bad for you), breaks even (not really good), or makes money (free money press?). They should change slicing so it gives something else and not money lockboxes.

 

Raximillian you're missing the point.

 

Lets say I generate 100k per companion per hour slicing. I send all 5 companions out every hour for 6 hours

 

I have 3 million credits! hell yeah I'm rich!

 

Oh what's this? everything in the market place has inflated to 200k+ per item? And now that 100k per hour isn't all that much now is it?

[TheBoredfish]

That is correct, I'm well aware of that. the "lots" of money that it was making will not be worth much 6 months or 1 year from now when the economy shifts and the value of credits change.

 

They will then need to re-balance slicing again. Probably every 2-3 months to keep it working ok. That is one of the major flaws with slicing. It should not give money directly, it should give something that can be marketable, something that fits into the economy better.

 

They don't need to touch it. Just leave it's generation alone and it will balance it's self and eventually just be ran for the schematics and missions.

[Zakkana]

Ok, now I get it... You do not really care if slicing is broken or not, you are worried that your income will suffer. So you were getting lots of money, and that lots of money was coming from slicers. Isn't that how inflation begins? Lots of money coming from somewhere? People accumulating large amounts of money?

 

Just because you do not directly use slicing, does not mean it was balanced.

 

Inflation happens when too much currency is in circulation. Problem is there are tons of sinks both one-time (i.e. over-priced skills), some continuous (the expensive repair bills the higher levels report), and some hybrid ones (crafting missions).

 

That's why banks raise interest rates, to slow down spending and encourage people to save so it starts taking money out of circulation.

[UndeadKnight]

Slicing generates money that slicers use to buy items on the market. The crafters get money from the items that the slicers buy. They crafters then send their companions out to gather more materials, which takes out a portion of the credits gained from the sale, and taking up time, so they can craft more items (which also takes a little time) and put them on the market for others to buy.

 

Nerfing the amount of credits slicers got from their only money making professions is not what the SWTOR developers should have done, what they should have done was put a fail-safe so that alt characters could not just get to level 400 slicing at level 10 whether that be by limiting slicing to one or two characters per server or by making sure you could do certain missions until you reached a certain level.

 

Please remember that slicers are unable to create items from their other two professions because slicing is a GATHERING profession. Slicers give up their ability to create items for themselves or to sell on the market without first buying the required materials (or having another character gather it for you). The reason slicing should be put back to the way it was (or even buffed at the higher levels based on what people are saying about repair costs) is because slicers are not making money off of the market except from the occasional schematic (I hear they don't sell for much anyway).

[Deathmvp]

They don't need to touch it. Just leave it's generation alone and it will balance it's self and eventually just be ran for the schematics and missions.

 

Then change it so instead of the mission giving lock Boxes they give you a schematics or missions each time with the lock box being the bounes you get every so offen.

[Raximillian]

They don't need to touch it. Just leave it's generation alone and it will balance it's self and eventually just be ran for the schematics and missions.

 

Well, that's the problem. It's BWs best interest to make a tradeskill that is neither overpowered, or useless. The problem with slicing is that it will always be one of the 2. Other gathering skills may not suffer from that. While at low levels high end materials may be worth a lot, when everyone is 50, the low-mid end materials will be worth more, so those gathering skills will still provide money.

 

Slicing is not something that would balance itself out easily. That's why I would prefer if instead of giving money directly, it game something else that fits into the economy better.

[Pansophist]

Then change it so instead of the mission giving lock Boxes they give you a schematics or missions each time with the lock box being the bounes you get every so offen.

 

Similar to Treasure hunting Which currently returns a much higher profit than slicing.

 

It could work, it's been suggested before. Tying slicing to a profession or proclaiming what it's use is for would help on Bioware's part. Unfortunately, we're still waiting to hear from them.

[Raximillian]

Inflation happens when too much currency is in circulation. Problem is there are tons of sinks both one-time (i.e. over-priced skills), some continuous (the expensive repair bills the higher levels report), and some hybrid ones (crafting missions).

 

That's why banks raise interest rates, to slow down spending and encourage people to save so it starts taking money out of circulation.

 

That's fine, but it is something that should affect everyone equally. It should not affect you less if you have slicing, and more if you do not have it. Slicing was becoming a kind of "must have" skill, and that is never good.