Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[manarift]

The nerf to slicing was because the highest teir lock boxes were coming up way to often for the level 5-6 lock boxes.

 

I got on average 6 to 10 in a day from green to blue which was way to high

[VioletZero]

*headdesk*

It actually wasn't "too good" in beta. There were just a lot of whiny people who didn't want to take slicing that were upset that someone was buying their goods to give them money, and they didn't just have credits appear in their pockets while they chucked money out a window.

 

It always warms my heart to see people resort to insults to make their point.

[Raximillian]

*headdesk*

 

It actually wasn't "too good" in beta. There were just a lot of whiny people who didn't want to take slicing that were upset that someone was buying their goods to give them money, and they didn't just have credits appear in their pockets while they chucked money out a window.

 

Exactly like now.

 

The difference in between the nerf then and the nerf now is that the economy now is still incredibly young and unstable and did not have the larger surplus of credits to fall back on, nor were the starting values appropriate for keeping an economy going on the higher end. 400 slicing was providing laughable returns for anyone in the 40s.

 

But because you don't have the progress now that you did then, you wind up with things like... people having less money saved up to spend on GTN purchases, so crafters and gatherers make even less money than they did before--assuming they try to sell anything and don't just keep whining that their constant Reverse Engineering and buying up every schematic they can get regardless of use or value and not making any attempt to sell anything, that money doesn't magically appear in their pocket along with the other considerable gains they're getting from progressing a crafting skill.

 

Then it was still unbalanced. You think the way it should work is that some people stay comfortable in the fleet, sending their companions on missions to get money so they can then buy from the AH from the people that are actually out in the field getting the materials and making stuff for others? You think it is fine because the gatherer/crafter gets money in the end?

 

Just by looking at the way you "think" it should work, it is quite easy to see the flaws. The nerf is a good nerf. I agree they should revisit slicing in a few months when the economy shifts again, and adjust as needed.

[LeperJack]

It always warms my heart to see people resort to insults to make their point.

 

That's not insulting. I can get that way if you'd like.

 

Go back a few pages. Start reading this from the beginning and you'll see no shortage of people who think that when they:

• spend money to get resources from other people
  
• spend money to buy recipes they don't need to level, or won't sell, or will make only to reverse engineer to get the blue and epic versions, which they want only as a "collector"
  
• take their products and reverse engineer all of them or the majority of them
  
• make nothing
  
• sell nothing
  
• fail to do so much research as just asking in General what people need or looking at a /who list to see what classes are in the majority and anticipate the buying needs of that mrket
  
• can't be bothered to do anythign more than slap an item on the GTN for three times the price of what a competitor is selling it for (also known as the CRAFTERS trying to cause inflation)
  

 

That they deserve and are absolutely entitled to continue to make MORE money than Slicers. Why? because "slicing isn't a real skill anyways."

 

I didn't point fingers or name names. I merely made note of a trend of behavior. if you think that trend of behavior applies to yourself, then you might want to consider some introspection instead of claiming to take offense at comments that weren't directed at you.

[VioletZero]

I know it wasn't directed at me. But I just like pointing that out.

[MrFarnsworth]

That's not insulting. I can get that way if you'd like.

 

Go back a few pages. Start reading this from the beginning and you'll see no shortage of people who think that when they:

• spend money to get resources from other people
  
• spend money to buy recipes they don't need to level, or won't sell, or will make only to reverse engineer to get the blue and epic versions, which they want only as a "collector"
  
• take their products and reverse engineer all of them or the majority of them
  
• make nothing
  
• sell nothing
  
• fail to do so much research as just asking in General what people need or looking at a /who list to see what classes are in the majority and anticipate the buying needs of that mrket
  
• can't be bothered to do anythign more than slap an item on the GTN for three times the price of what a competitor is selling it for (also known as the CRAFTERS trying to cause inflation)
  

 

That they deserve and are absolutely entitled to continue to make MORE money than Slicers. Why? because "slicing isn't a real skill anyways."

 

I didn't point fingers or name names. I merely made note of a trend of behavior. if you think that trend of behavior applies to yourself, then you might want to consider some introspection instead of claiming to take offense at comments that weren't directed at you.

 

I'm normally not a big fan of arguments like this buy my sweet **** that was well worded. Kudos.

 

Also yeah... I'm really not sure what to do with this skill now. Considering dropping it. And the annoying part is I (like most in some way or another), used slicing to fund [my] crafting (Armormech).

[LeperJack]

Then it was still unbalanced.

I have a feeling I'll enjoy this explanation.

 

You think

Don't presume to tell me what I think.

 

 

the way it should work is that some people stay comfortable in the fleet, sending their companions on missions to get money so they can then buy from the AH from the people that are actually out in the field getting the materials and making stuff for others? You think it is fine because the gatherer/crafter gets money in the end?

I don't suppose you could point me to where I said any of this?

 

Because allow me to let you in on not what i think, but what I do.

 

 

My crafter stays comfortably in the fleet, sending out his companion (singular! he's only level 15, remember!) to go gather materials. He sells about half of them because other crafters are idiots, and will buy them in bulk so they can keep reverse engineering to get recipes for more things they won't sell.

 

The other half he keeps. When he has enough for a good run of crafting, he stops gathering and starts crafting. He crafts patterns (still standing at the nice little cargo hold overlooking the cantina) I know will sell. If it's somethign that liable to be very popular, i'll even reverse engineer to get a blue pattern, but I don't make many of them.

 

What I make, I put up for sale and then i advertise that they're for sale. I don't spam, just one or two little blurbs in general and one in guild. Then i go back to gathering.

 

I didn't sweat. I don't fret, and I'm actually doing it right this second.

 

Just by looking at the way you "think" it should work, it is quite easy to see the flaws. The nerf is a good nerf. I agree they should revisit slicing in a few months when the economy shifts again, and adjust as needed.

Again, you're terrible at mindreading.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you think is so hard about "gathering" out in the world. (which i do while questing, when it's convenient as a bonus only) It's a game. you sit your butt down in a chair. You watch a screen. you're not slaving away at anything.

 

you're not a hero. you're not entitled.

 

You may feel you are, but you're not.

[LeperJack]

I know it wasn't directed at me. But I just like pointing that out.

"Your icon looks like a woman."

 

That is a statement of provable observational worth.

 

If you were a mysogynist, you might take it as an insult, but that doesn't mean it is one. you taking offense or claiming that notes about provable, observable behavior are insulting says much more about you than it does me. I just like pointing that out.

[Pansophist]

That's not insulting. I can get that way if you'd like.

 

Go back a few pages. Start reading this from the beginning and you'll see no shortage of people who think that when they:

• spend money to get resources from other people
  
• spend money to buy recipes they don't need to level, or won't sell, or will make only to reverse engineer to get the blue and epic versions, which they want only as a "collector"
  
• take their products and reverse engineer all of them or the majority of them
  
• make nothing
  
• sell nothing
  
• fail to do so much research as just asking in General what people need or looking at a /who list to see what classes are in the majority and anticipate the buying needs of that mrket
  
• can't be bothered to do anythign more than slap an item on the GTN for three times the price of what a competitor is selling it for (also known as the CRAFTERS trying to cause inflation)
  

 

That they deserve and are absolutely entitled to continue to make MORE money than Slicers. Why? because "slicing isn't a real skill anyways."

 

I didn't point fingers or name names. I merely made note of a trend of behavior. if you think that trend of behavior applies to yourself, then you might want to consider some introspection instead of claiming to take offense at comments that weren't directed at you.

 

Well put. There are so many people acting like it's perfectly okay in its current form...but they will never be the ones taking up slicing. Instead, they are the ones who feel like they've been disadvantaged early on and so this is 'what those filthy slicers get' for picking a crew profession Bioware implemented in the game.

 

And I also love the arguments that indicate BioWare intended for slicing to be used differently than, you know, Bioware implemented it to be used. I fail to understand that logic. They created the system, I'm relatively certain they know better than people here what their design goals are.

[xDoomsDayx]

See here is the real reason I think people are QQ'ing.

 

In almost every mmo that I have played, the top people with cash has been CRAFTERS. You will rarely ever see an adventurer as a top cash person in these games. Now, here is why. In almost every single mmo, crafters have done the following.

Charged at a minimum of 5x the amount of money an adventurer makes an hour and justifies it by saying crafting is boring and yet they continue to craft????

Part of the problem with crafters is that they dont want to gather their own resources to craft, so they pay people to gather for them which causes the real price of the what they are crafting to go higher.

 

I have had multiple discussions with crafters and I can tell you that they feel their time is worth MUCH more than your time. Thus the reason of at least 5x the cost. In one game, I saw a "crafters union" corner the market on certain items. They would watch the auction house 24/7 and any time any of the products they made came on the market cheaper from someone else, they would buy them up so that only their products were out there at a much higher cost.

 

So I think I can say this with confidence. the QQing is solely based on them knowing they can't corner the market and be the richest ones on the servers. it has little to do with actual economy other than the fact that they are not the top dogs in the economy. And of course, bioware fell right in their trap.

[MnMrMustard]

So, after 1 hour of slicing missions, I lost 200 credits. I'm at slicing 400 and doing the grey missions. I haven't failed a single one and crit'd three missions.

 

The next hour I did bioanalysis missions, tier 2, and placed everything for that in the GTN. I made 4k in profit off this.

 

The next hour I did archaeology missions, tier 2, and placed everything for that in the GTN. I made 6k in profit off this.

 

How is this fair to people who are not crafting? Gathering missions for materials aren't really designed to make you money but they can. At tier 2 slicing I couldn't make 4k an hour so is bioanalysis broken too? Is archaeology broken for making 6k an hour? Are you going to nerf these next or can you fix the economy so people will actually but what crafters are making?

[Raximillian]

I have a feeling I'll enjoy this explanation.

 

Don't presume to tell me what I think.

 

 

I don't suppose you could point me to where I said any of this?

 

Because allow me to let you in on not what i think, but what I do.

 

 

My crafter stays comfortably in the fleet, sending out his companion (singular! he's only level 15, remember!) to go gather materials. He sells about half of them because other crafters are idiots, and will buy them in bulk so they can keep reverse engineering to get recipes for more things they won't sell.

 

The other half he keeps. When he has enough for a good run of crafting, he stops gathering and starts crafting. He crafts patterns (still standing at the nice little cargo hold overlooking the cantina) I know will sell. If it's somethign that liable to be very popular, i'll even reverse engineer to get a blue pattern, but I don't make many of them.

 

What I make, I put up for sale and then i advertise that they're for sale. I don't spam, just one or two little blurbs in general and one in guild. Then i go back to gathering.

 

I didn't sweat. I don't fret, and I'm actually doing it right this second.

 

 

Again, you're terrible at mindreading.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you think is so hard about "gathering" out in the world. (which i do while questing, when it's convenient as a bonus only) It's a game. you sit your butt down in a chair. You watch a screen. you're not slaving away at anything.

 

you're not a hero. you're not entitled.

 

You may feel you are, but you're not.

 

So if you have slicing it's ok to advance faster, get more patterns and other items, and on top of that make more money that someone without slicing? Oh, and probably less work too?

 

I have slicing as well as cybertech, and it I'm also advancing it rapidly due to slicing, and getting tons of money. It was unbalanced.

[Gruug]

For the record and just adding my two cents worth......the "nerf" to slicing is garbage. Slicing was the only FUN means of funding any other low to high level crafting. The only thing this nerf will do is make crafting less fun and take it out of the hands of many players. I for one have decided to give up all crafting simply for this reason. I also will no longer make purchases from GTN. I suggest anyone else that feels that way do the same.

 

Beware the vocal minority for they will ruin our fun.

[Pansophist]

See here is the real reason I think people are QQ'ing.

 

In almost every mmo that I have played, the top people with cash has been CRAFTERS. You will rarely ever see an adventurer as a top cash person in these games. Now, here is why. In almost every single mmo, crafters have done the following.

Charged at a minimum of 5x the amount of money an adventurer makes an hour and justifies it by saying crafting is boring and yet they continue to craft????

Part of the problem with crafters is that they dont want to gather their own resources to craft, so they pay people to gather for them which causes the real price of the what they are crafting to go higher.

 

I have had multiple discussions with crafters and I can tell you that they feel their time is worth MUCH more than your time. Thus the reason of at least 5x the cost. In one game, I saw a "crafters union" corner the market on certain items. They would watch the auction house 24/7 and any time any of the products they made came on the market cheaper from someone else, they would buy them up so that only their products were out there at a much higher cost.

 

So I think I can say this with confidence. the QQing is solely based on them knowing they can't corner the market and be the richest ones on the servers. it has little to do with actual economy other than the fact that they are not the top dogs in the economy. And of course, bioware fell right in their trap.

 

Exactly. They are obviously worth more to the in-game society than the casual players, so the casual players should take the shaft.

 

/sarcasm

 

In all seriousness, people need to stop pushing their beliefs on the community and start realizing that this game is meant to have FUN. Fun for some people (myself included) means hardcore raiding. Fun for others means logging in every now and then and having a good time. Fun for others is exploring the many aspects of crafting.

 

Who is to say that one way to have fun is the only way? Why can you not appeal to everyone? That was the inherent purpose of slicing, in my point of view. And from what I heard from more of the casual player set, it worked.

[SacredPanda]

So if you have slicing it's ok to advance faster, get more patterns and other items, and on top of that make more money that someone without slicing? Oh, and probably less work too?

 

I have slicing as well as cybertech, and it I'm also advancing it rapidly due to slicing, and getting tons of money. It was unbalanced.

 

There is no restriction on who can have slicing. Every single player on both factions could have a character with it. How is this a legitimate argument? Everyone had the same advantage if they chose to use it. It made the game easier and less tedious for everyone.

 

But now that is gone, and the game is reduced to a WoW level grindfest where you go out and farm low lvl areas that you're safe in for materials or lockboxes, thus depriving low lvl people of the opportunity to benefit from them.

 

Yep, the game sure is a better place without slicing.

[LeperJack]

So if you have slicing it's ok to advance faster, get more patterns and other items, and on top of that make more money that someone without slicing? Oh, and probably less work too?

Huh? What part of any of what I just told you about my method involved slicing?

 

None of it.

 

ZERO.

 

Lemme say it again, since you may only be reading the small bits.

 

NO SLICING INVOLVED.

 

I have slicing as well as cybertech, and it I'm also advancing it rapidly due to slicing, and getting tons of money. It was unbalanced.

 

I advanced my cycbertech very rapidly due to using the craft skill repsonsibly instead of buying everything. I then sold my products and made more profit faster than it was possible with pre-nerf slicing. I made money very quickly because i was nto slicing, i was paying people to slice for me with the items that i made. From looking at the time tables for pre-nerf slicing and the timetables for gathering and crafting I have now, I spent about 10 minutes gathering and crafting for every HOUR someone spent slicing open the absolute best return slicing mission to pay me for that 10 minutes.

 

Yes, (low level!) Crafting gave me a 600% return over what I'd have gotten spending that time slicing.

 

If slicing was unbalanced it was because it made too little money to compete with someone properly utilizing any other craft.

 

 

Was slicing very good for you? Yes, because it gave you money instead of materials you had no concept of value for. If you think bronzium is worthless for anything other than making into crappy greens that you will then smash to bits to get one piece of bronzium from and maybe a new pattern, then you're going to do that.

 

To me, bronzium is worth about 50 credits a piece, although I can craft it into somethign that will turn a few thousand credits when i mix it with other things.

 

Credits have an obvious value to you. You can see it right there. 1 credit=1 credit.

 

The only benefit to slicing is that it allows people who have zero sense to only fail slightly miserably instead of incredibly miserably.

Edited December 29, 2011 by LeperJack

[HelmetHarry]

Personally, I am excited to see an economy where it is actually difficult to manage your credits.

 

This was such a good aspect in RFO.

 

Great, let me expand on your logic. Let's make all mats No Drop. This way everyone struggles the same for crafting. Then you don't have to worry about people only doing gathering skills to make "free" money to sell to other crafters or those wanting to powerlevel. This way no one makes money until they are level 50.

It's brilliant!!!!

 

You shouldn't be rich over night, but you shouldn't have to struggle where to place your credits. You should have enough to maintain your gear/crew/skills and crafting. With a little left over to save for the odd expenditure (like the speederbikes).

 

There is a reason they put venders in all levels of combat. They want you to be ABLE to buy as well as sell.

[Pansophist]

Great, let me expand on your logic. Let's make all mats No Drop. This way everyone struggles the same for crafting. Then you don't have to worry about people only doing gathering skills to make "free" money to sell to other crafters or those wanting to powerlevel. This way no one makes money until they are level 50.

It's brilliant!!!!

 

You shouldn't be rich over night, but you shouldn't have to struggle where to place your credits. You should have enough to maintain your gear/crew/skills and crafting. With a little left over to save for the odd expenditure (like the speederbikes).

 

There is a reason they put venders in all levels of combat. They want you to be ABLE to buy as well as sell.

 

Ah, I enjoy having him ignored. Then I have to see people quoting his posts and then feel the urge to add things into it.

<.<

 

If you go back through the post history, Violet believes everyone should struggle to afford everything in the game. They should have to wait a few levels or simply grind before affording trivial things like class skills and mounts.

 

I don't recall which game he compared it to, but he said that the SWTOR economy should be similar. Everyone having to grind constantly in order to afford the bare minimum.

 

Then I recall a casual RP player chiming in, saying it saddens and scares him seeing these kinds of comments. Because, were this change to happen, it would ruin the entire game for the more casual players....which BioWare has said for some time now that SWTOR would be more open to casual players than the majority of MMOs.

 

Edit: Here are the quotes.

 

Only if you let yourself die...

 

 

Seriously though, a game shouldn't be all fun. There needs to be contrast so that the fun moments seem that much more fun.

 

This actually reminds me of RF Online.

 

Terrible game, but there were a lot of things I really loved about it.

 

One of those things was that you had to buy supplies before doing anything. And you were lucky, underline, LUCKY if you broke even because of how expensive the supplies were. So it forced players to make compromises, seek new avenues of income and become better players.

 

And the best part is that even the most successful and skilled players were always strapped for cash. So it had a lot of value. Like trading necessary and rare upgrades just so that they could progress through the game. For all the game's faults, it had a great economy.

 

And then Episode 2, the 15x drop rates and hyperinflation came. Money essentially became useless and the game became even more of a chore.

 

This is something I hope to see with SWTOR. Where everyone, especially people at high levels, are always short on cash and it is always extremely expensive to do anything.

 

Repair costs being so high gives me hope to see this again. And in a good game for once.

 

 

 

So what's stopping them from leveling up their alts? Making the issue even worse I might add.

 

I'm a (semi) Casual/Roleplayer type player.

And having my companions off on a three day mission would suit me just fine (Though my experience with EVE suggests that three days may be a bit too long, by virtue of the 'I can't do anything else besides roleplay until this is done and I don't feel like RPing right now so I might as well not log in at all' principle). But yeah, it gives them something to do while I'm Roleplaying with other players.

 

Which is part of why VioletZero's 'Players should always be strapped for cash so they find ways to improve their game' scares and saddens me.

 

I don't want to have to 'improve' past lvl 50, if I've worked that far I would kindly like to enjoy my achievement and have more money incoming than outgoing, really.

If for no other reason than that I don't want to have (warning: hyperbole) to grind for six hours to pay my repair cost because I RPed an archeological expedition to Tatooine with some friends and a mob half my level happened to get a hit in on me.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pansophist

[myrken]

Ah, I enjoy having him ignored. Then I have to see people quoting his posts and then feel the urge to add things into it.

<.<

 

If you go back through the post history, Violet believes everyone should struggle to afford everything in the game. They should have to wait a few levels or simply grind before affording trivial things like class skills and mounts.

 

I don't recall which game he compared it to, but he said that the SWTOR economy should be similar. Everyone having to grind constantly in order to afford the bare minimum.

 

Then I recall a casual RP player chiming in, saying it saddens and scares him seeing these kinds of comments. Because, were this change to happen, it would ruin the entire game for the more casual players....which BioWare has said for some time now that SWTOR would be more open to casual players than the majority of MMOs.

 

It was RFO which is now a "dead" mmo.

 

Aww you and your quotes making my post pointless

Edited December 29, 2011 by myrken

[Daemaro]

I think the problem is we are being punished by what people who are essentially botting or doing the same thing as a bot would do.

 

The average player plays maybe 6-8 hours a day or so. There were people using slicing that were sitting for 16+ hours a day just raking in the cash. Players always end up getting the short end of the stick when it comes to a handful of people breaking game mechanics.

 

Companies always seem to take this "well if players x, y and z can't use this properly without causing trouble, the rest of the alphabet must suffer also."

 

I don't mind that they nerfed it but right now it's done for and the people that keep saying wait a month or two for them to HOPEFULLY rebalance it, yeah I should have to wait 2 months to make some money out of a crew skill while other skills flourish.

[myrken]

I think the problem is we are being punished by what people who are essentially botting or doing the same thing as a bot would do.

 

The average player plays maybe 6-8 hours a day or so. There were people using slicing that were sitting for 16+ hours a day just raking in the cash. Players always end up getting the short end of the stick when it comes to a handful of people breaking game mechanics.

 

Companies always seem to take this "well if players x, y and z can't use this properly without causing trouble, the rest of the alphabet must suffer also."

 

I don't mind that they nerfed it but right now it's done for and the people that keep saying wait a month or two for them to HOPEFULLY rebalance it, yeah I should have to wait 2 months to make some money out of a crew skill while other skills flourish.

 

Agreed most of the people making lots of money on it are using like 8 alts and spamming missions which can be done with any profession just slicing was the fastest one to use for profit because it returns straight credits. In that aspect any profession could suffer from people abusing it with many alts.

 

 

"off to train 8 alts in treasure hunting"

Edited December 29, 2011 by myrken

[Pansophist]

Agreed most of the people making lots of money on it are using like 8 alts and spamming missions which can be done with any profession just slicing was the fastest one to use for profit because it returns straight credits. In that aspect any profession could suffer from people abusing it with many alts.

 

We discussed this at one point in time. I knew of one friend who made an UWT alt. He was raking in much more with that one alt and UWT than with slicing.

 

Of course, this was when people weren't scared to spend credits on mats.

 

And, again, this could largely be solved by a smaller (read:40-50%) nerf to slicing as well as proper leveling caps be placed on crew professions.

[Sticksabbi]

In all seriousness, people need to stop pushing their beliefs on the community and start realizing that this game is meant to have FUN. Fun for some people (myself included) means hardcore raiding. Fun for others means logging in every now and then and having a good time. Fun for others is exploring the many aspects of crafting.

 

Yes, Fun... Let's everyone say screw inflation and have fun... Then in 3 months when credit values get so low due to over inflation that credits become worthless and the player economy devolves into a barter system similar to what you see in D2 on battle.net. Since that's not really doable with the GTN it becomes completely worthless. You'll have people sitting in the main trade hubs spamming trade channels with "WTT 20 X Desh for Skill armor 3[superior] pst" Similar to the old EQ days.

 

so much fun...

[DustomaticGXC]

Agreed most of the people making lots of money on it are using like 8 alts and spamming missions which can be done with any profession just slicing was the fastest one to use for profit because it returns straight credits. In that aspect any profession could suffer from people abusing it with many alts.

 

So you actually think you know how "most people" do things? Your argument is basically garbage for this reason.

[Wizzer]

So, after 1 hour of slicing missions, I lost 200 credits. I'm at slicing 400 and doing the grey missions. I haven't failed a single one and crit'd three missions.

 

The next hour I did bioanalysis missions, tier 2, and placed everything for that in the GTN. I made 4k in profit off this.

 

The next hour I did archaeology missions, tier 2, and placed everything for that in the GTN. I made 6k in profit off this.

 

How is this fair to people who are not crafting? Gathering missions for materials aren't really designed to make you money but they can. At tier 2 slicing I couldn't make 4k an hour so is bioanalysis broken too? Is archaeology broken for making 6k an hour? Are you going to nerf these next or can you fix the economy so people will actually but what crafters are making?

 

This.

 

All the people that have been trolling in here saying that "Slicing has been brought in line with the other gathering skills" are doing just that, trolling.

 

I have Scavenging and do the exact same thing listed here and make money doing it.

 

If you aren't making money off crafting then you are doing it wrong.