About the idea for 242 requirement for MM FP...

[aerockyul]

For Umbara’s Master Mode we are trying something new, and depending on how well it goes, we may do something similar for all Master Mode Flashpoints. Specifically, a player will need to have an average gear rating of 242 to use Group Finder. We won’t prevent pre-made groups from going in directly, but this will prevent under-geared players from slowing down your group.

 

TL;DR at the bottom

 

The "discussion thread" that you posted about the 5.4 update is going to go in several different directions and a lot of voices will get lost. Just wanted to start this one so we can keep one thread for this one topic instead of one thread for 5 topics.

 

I think it's ok to restrict the *new* FP, provided the reason you're restricting it was because the new FP in MM was specifically designed, calibrated, and developed for 242 and nothing less. I have no problem with that. There are a lot of people out there who would welcome that level of challenge.

 

But I have to take issue with your phrasing related to under-geared players slowing others down.

 

That is not a gear issue. People can and do slow groups down through much more than gear. In fact, gear is probably at the bottom of the list for what slows a group down.

 

Can you please clarify what you mean by "slowing down your group?"

 

Is it people standing in red circles? That's not a gear issue.

Is it people ignoring mechanics? That's not a gear issue.

Is it people ignorant of the flashpoint because they've never done it before? That's not a gear issue.

Is it people using WRONG gear? Like healers with accuracy and dps with only alacrity? Things like that? That's a separate gear issue, not an item rating issue.

Is it people who go away for butter in the middle of a flashpoint? (Bonus COOL points if you know what I'm referring to )

 

I can go on, but I think you get the idea. The only reason for requiring 242 gear in order to not slow down the group, is if the FP you've created or tuned requires it. If you designed it to not be completed by anyone sub-242 because the bosses all have strict dps/heal checks that your numbers say are literally impossible for sub-242's, that's one thing.

 

But if you leave the flashpoints (outside of the new one) as-is and go through with this change (should you make that change; I understand you want to test the new one first), you are going to substantially, catastrophically kill the GF pops for MM flashpoints. They are already skimpy enough as it is, even on Harbinger. If the goal is for people to play more MM FPs, restricting them to 242 or above is going to have the exact opposite effect.

 

My main is probably around 240-average right now. I've been completing MM FPs through groupfinder with ease with PUGs since my gear was still at 224 when 5.0 dropped. I'm experienced enough I can do the content AND HELP CARRY NEW PLAYERS through most of the MM's as they are now in "low" gear. I would be locked out of doing things I already can do easily simply because I haven't had the RNG gods on my side after grinding through Tier 3.

 

That is on my MAIN. I also have tanks and dps, but none of them are even close to averaging 242, but they are more than capable to do the MM FPs as they are now in 216, 220, 224 gear. But I wouldn't be able to bring those tanks through anymore, at least not for months. Tanks are the most-needed role in MM FP Groupfinder. There will be fewer tanks and healers with this change.

 

You're probably tired of hearing how alt-unfriendly GC has been, but this is another point in support of that conspiracy. There aren't actually that many people that have all three roles at 300 ranks, let alone that are all going to average 242. MM FP GF is almost never going to pop.

 

Finally, and probably most simply, if you make 242 a requirement to do a MM FP, does this mean you are going to drop bolster from these instances? If so, why don't you just make MM FPs MORE inclusive and simply raise bolster to 242?

 

 

TL;DR: Go ahead and test 242 on the new MM FP if it's tuned for it specifically, but I see virtually no way expanding that strict requirement to all other MM FPs wouldn't lead to a disastrous drop off in MM FP GF pops.

[ottffsse]

I agree 242 is way to high for any of your old master fps, this will kill q as many have pointed out.

 

Maybe this "umbara" is a super flashpoint like Lost Island in the old days so ok if you try it for it, but in the old ones an adjusted gear rating as of now of 230s+augments is totally fine for random pugs.

Edited July 22, 2017 by ottffsse

[rantboi]

yeah it's retarded. there are people who do nim ops in less than that and there are also people who are in full 248 and can't do enough dps to kill the korriban droid before it goes crazy or who struggle to do 4k hps.

adding some kind of proving grounds thing and making it requirement would be a better idea.

[Eshvara]

I don't really see the issue on either side, getting 242 gear isn't exactly hard and there is crafted gear that's 246. But then I don't know and don't assume it's necessary to have 242 gear for it either.

Maybe add an option to toggle for gear rating rather than making it a requirement, just like you can choose to join in progress groups or not when doing FP's.

That way people can decide on their own if they want to "carry" or not.

 

Edit; I'm mistaken Eternal gear for Iokath, and Iokath is fairly "difficult to obtain" 236 would seem like the better idea if they have to put a requirement on it. But then there's still crafted gear so I have to wonder how much it matters. I guess we'll have to wait and see how hard the actual FP is.

People still find Rishi hard and that mandalorian instance. "Forgot the name"

Edited July 22, 2017 by Eshvara

[exfell]

Interesting idea but if one is supposed to run HM ops to gear for this fp I wonder if you are limiting it's availability to too small a group. GC boxes are not by any means a reliable way of getting full 242 gear so how are dedicated flashpoint runners supposed to gear for these? Also, what will the FP drop?

 

Sure, GC works fine and is supplementary for ops runners and pvpers (yes pvp gearing speed needs fixing)

but for those who run the current HM FPs getting gear for this might be nigh impossible unless...

*exfell runs away having nightmarish visions of people queing in greens only to switch gearset to a lower level optimized one once inside*

[matthobbit]

Knowledge of mechanics and roles is the most important thing in master FPs, not gear.

 

If you force me to run faceroll veteran FPs, I'll probably kill myself.

Edited July 22, 2017 by matthobbit

[dscount]

If 242 is what is required then it better be dropping 248 or better loot.

 

If not... Well that would be almost as silly as NIM (MM) Operations not dropping a specific token by boss like they used to drop in 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x and no longer in 5.RNG

Edited July 22, 2017 by dscount

[Tsillah]

Although skill is definitely the most important factor, you guys are forgetting a simple thing....

 

Skill is not something you can enforce.

 

Now gear won't fix everything but a 242 rating does mean that you can do more damage and take more damage even if you're not very skilled. What you need to realise is that most people who play don't have that great of a skill level. Perhaps you consider yourself a pretty good player and others are just lazy to not learn something so simple, but apparently it's not that simple to a lot of people

 

You have to consider that a large part of group content happens in pugs. It's not the guild teams that game together regularly that are the issue.

 

As a general rule, when you start saying something is easy or just a matter of skill, remember that most people cannot or are not willing to do what you are asking and these players are needed to fill out the queues and all that.

 

In summary it comes down to this:

 

#puglife

[Hichitsuki-hime]

dunno, the other game i play is FFXIV and it certainly have a required item level for most of the higher level content, hard mode and even some story. sure wiht 246s being craftable now u don't put in that much effort to get above 242. but if nothing else we can know that we won't get some bolstered level 50 in empty orange gear shells (for example):D

[casirabit]

I could see them making it where they have to have 230 for the rest of the flashpoints as that gear is fairly easy to get. Will it fix all the problems, no but it might help a little.

 

The rest of the problems is with people themselves and them not listening about "not standing in stupid"

 

People have been asking for a gear check on some of these flashpoints and this might be a reason they are doing this, but 242 is a bit too high especially if you don't play that much. Sure you can make some but there are still some 242 gear I haven't gotten on my crafters yet so it is very possible even crafting isn't going to help there.

[robertthebard]

Yeah, a gear requirement isn't going to prevent "slowing down the group". I have personally seen max geared people, at the time, that didn't understand mechanics that caused more wipes than a couple of undergeared players would have caused. The (lack of) logic is astounding.

[xordevoreaux]

Yeah, a gear requirement isn't going to prevent "slowing down the group". I have personally seen max geared people, at the time, that didn't understand mechanics that caused more wipes than a couple of undergeared players would have caused. The (lack of) logic is astounding.

 

I haven't researched all the threads but the suggestion's been made that people have been asking for a gear-rating gate for a while.

[JediAkemi]

As others have said, very few of the problems with HFPs are gear-related.

 

It's about whether or not people know what to do and what not to do (and in some cases, being able to see and react fast enough).

 

This has come up many times, but there's too little incentive in solo content to learn how to play your class these days, so some people come into group content and think they can just go toe to toe with anything and not use their brains. Gear simply cannot compensate for that.

 

I'm by no means perfect, and I know we were all new once, which is why I always try to teach people in group content if I already know the theory. Of course if no-one admits to being new, then there's often a great deal of drama

[Romeugues]

If you don't have 242 gear then get good son.

It doesn't take long to get 242 and having that kind of requirement is a safety net for people who don't know how to DPS/tank/heal, i.e clickers or people with low APM, which could describe a large percentage of the player base who isn't a member of a raiding guild.

[JediAkemi]

If you don't have 242 gear then get good son.

It doesn't take long to get 242 and having that kind of requirement is a safety net for people who don't know how to DPS/tank/heal, i.e clickers or people with low APM, which could describe a large percentage of the player base who isn't a member of a raiding guild.

 

You're kidding, right?

[Romeugues]

You're kidding, right?

No, you know there's a 100% CXP bonus going on right now right?

I've been gearing up my dps Sorc this week and I'm up to command rank 277 or something like that, mostly 242 gear.

[AlrikFassbauer]

No, you know there's a 100% CXP bonus going on right now right?

 

Emphasis on "right now".

 

What with the people coming after us ? Is this the "after us the apocalypse" mind set ?

[exfell]

No, you know there's a 100% CXP bonus going on right now right?

I've been gearing up my dps Sorc this week and I'm up to command rank 277 or something like that, mostly 242 gear.

 

Man you are lucky. By the time my main had opened 100 tier 4 crates I still had to buy many pieces of 248 from 236s up, e.i no 242 piece to trade.

[Romeugues]

Emphasis on "right now".

 

What with the people coming after us ? Is this the "after us the apocalypse" mind set ?

Well getting a 242 set is much easier than getting a 248 set given tier 4 has much worse RNG.

 

Man you are lucky. By the time my main had opened 100 tier 4 crates I still had to buy many pieces of 248 from 236s up, e.i no 242 piece to trade.

I bought a 246 hilt on GTN and armoring for my OH, the others are even a few lucky RNG crate drops or bought using unassembled components, I've gotten a few annoying 242 dupes though, oh and see above for my thoughts on tier 4.

[Exocor]

The Gear-Question ist always relating to how they plan to balance the new Flashpoint. Just imagine DPS-checks like first boss Bloodhount back in 3.0 times. For me, I was a casual in the "good old times", the dps-check was barely doable. I even took part in groups, where we did the boss with 3 DPS.

Maybe it's a lack of skill. However, this problem is not a new problem. Moreover MM Flashpoints are currently there, to get into harder Content with a proper group composition, finishable in a shorter amount of time, giving us the chance, to learn our classes in a situation compareable with OPs.

 

So, before judging the devs plans, we need to know, what there plans for the new flashpoint are. From my point of view, the Gear-Requirement implicates a level of difficulty compareable to NiM-operations, which soft gear-requirements also were 242 pre-5.2. If I am right, I would be very thrilled about what to come with 5.4.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Exocor

[psandak]

Skill is not something you can enforce.

 

Tsillah is correct...

 

They need a quantifiable measure. Requiring 242 gear assumes one or more of a few possibilities:

 

• The player has played the game with at least one character at the level cap to (and probably through) tier 3 of GC. Granted a player can do this having never done a FP or an OP or PvP (AKA group content), but at least it shows they have experience playing the game; they have probably seen red circles on the ground, and adds spawn, etc (AKA common FP mechanics)
   
  
• The player has run HM operations to get 242 tokens to turn in for gear. This means that they do have experience with group content and "don't stand in stupid" mechanics. Granted, they may have died on every boss in every run they ever did and/or were carried through that content, but how reasonably likely is that?
   
  
• The player has done sufficient PvP to get components to acquire tokens to acquire the gear. This means that they do have experience working with a random team. Granted they may have AFKed all the way there, but again how reasonably likely is that?
  

 

Note that I specified "player" not "character." Well within the realm of possibility is a player uses a boosted character token, only plays that character from 65-70 and then throws on random **** gear acquired elsewhere...but that gear had to be acquired elsewhere somewhere. And, that player could have paid real money for millions of credits and then bought a full set of 246, yet again how reasonably likely is that?

 

All that said, IMO the new MM FP requiring 242 might be a little high for the rest of the HM FPs. Although this might be a viable opportunity to re-implement "level requirements" on FPs in general.

 

One of the biggest complaints with the new bolstered FPs is that very low level characters can get into FPs that were originally designed for the level cap (of the time). Even VM Forged Alliances FPs can be challenging to a teens - 20s level character.

 

So with a new rating requirement system they can implement a limitation on what FPs a given character can queue for without going back in time to an actual level requirement. For example a teens level character used to be able to do ess/bt, Hammer Station and Athiss; the best gear a teens character can have is rating 72 (plucking a number from the air so don't yell at me for getting this wrong). So going forward maybe a character with an average rating 68 gear set cannot queue for anything but ess/bt, HS, and Athiss. And as the average gear improves they can queue for additional FPs.

[Ottoattack]

"For Umbara’s Master Mode we are trying something new, and depending on how well it goes, we may do something similar for all Master Mode Flashpoints."

What I do not understand is this will be a 4th tier for FPs difficulty or the 3rd tier (MM, 3rd tier which currently has no gear requirement and a bolster) will change. I would love a 4th tier if there are additional mechanics. If it will be a damage + HP multiplier on mobs, then no. It is a complete waste of time.

 

As for the system trying to determine my gear, this is will be a disaster 100%. A bland average will be way off. Weighted avg will be so complex. How do weight in MH, OH, relics, set bonuses, right mods and so on.. You will need an extremely complex algorithm to get it right (or even within 1% error margin). We know how that works out. Just look at PvP bolster

Edited July 22, 2017 by Ottoattack

[Cronjaw]

A 242 requirement for all HMFPS is a TERRIBLE idea. Bolster is a thing. Try using augmented gear with green 210 mods, enhancements, barrels, etc from the level 65 vendor. Every current HMFP can be completed easily. You will not miss any dps checks provided that you know your rotation.

[Khaleijo]

Although skill is definitely the most important factor, you guys are forgetting a simple thing....

 

Skill is not something you can enforce.

...snip..

You have to consider that a large part of group content happens in pugs. It's not the guild teams that game together regularly that are the issue.

 

As a general rule, when you start saying something is easy or just a matter of skill, remember that most people cannot or are not willing to do what you are asking and these players are needed to fill out the queues and all that.

 

In summary it comes down to this:

 

#puglife

 

You could try to enforce some sort of basic knowledge about the roles with proving/training grounds you need to finish before being able to list for that role.

Properly done players should know what to expect for their chosen role, not to stand in stupid, that there is something like interrupt, cleanse, def CDs and all these little things players have to make FPs a breeze if used properly.

A gear score will just result in fewer players running FPs per GF, until the gear limit is easy to reach, then it won't make any difference to now, as bolster usually does take care of bad gear well enough.

 

Another thought to this:

Except for the aspect of the already low pops for GF getting worse, I also fear the design philsophy behind a gearscore for FPs.

The main reason such a thing would be needed is to meet certain DPS or healing checks. While I want new and challenging FPs I prefer them to be challenging because of the mechanics not simple numbers checks.

 

Just to compare Lost Island to Blood Hunt.

LI has and had a certain dps/healing requirement too, yes, but much more important is/was to stay alive through the whole fight. The mechanics there are punishing without being possible to be healed through if the healer has enough gear. You fail the mechanic, someone dies and you won't get much further if you are not totally overgeared and have particular experienced players with you.

BUT:

The droid is doable with low DPs if people interrupt properly and place the lightning circles properly, the boss jumping on the pipes is awesome for showing your awareness and positioning while also needing some healing and some DPS. Lorik has everything of that with a decent dps/healing requirement. Good groups only need two kolto tanks to get to the next phase, but if everyone is paying attention you still can still beat him if you need five or six. Every role is challenged and has influence on how well the group gets through the fight.

That is a great example for a cool well designed and balanced FP I and many players I know still enjoy to run even with PUGs.

 

Blood Hunt on the other hand doesn't have really complicated mechanics but is much more about raw numbers. Especially Shae Vizla is a very bad example for boss mechanics. It's just not a fun fight. Too much health and too imbalanced towards the different roles.

For Tank and mDPS all that jumping around is just stupid, the best way to tank it is actually to just stay away and taunt, taunt and taunt on CD to enable the rest of the group to huddle together as the flame sweep doesn't happen with the tank staying away and she doesn't jump out of range constantly.

For rDPS it is boring: attack, run out of the fire wheel, attack.

For healers on the other hand it is a healing check that does rival some of the harder MM operation or some NIM bosses. Especially if the tank tanks correctly by staying in melee range and you have one or more mDPS.

 

Since 5.0 I tanked LI lots of times for achievements, my own using the GF alone or or for guild mates running with 2/2 guild/PUG groups.

While some wipes happened due to low DPS most of the time it was because of people not knowing/ignoring mechanics. Still I can count the groups that were really unable to finsh the FP with one hand. Most of the time, a renewed explanation of the mechanics or hints how to enhance DPS, reminder to use group buffs, stims or adrenals and any combination of all of that was enough to succeed even with weaker groups.

 

With Blood Hunt thats different, though of course most players are not even inclined to try it at least once before dropping out. But with there you just need the numbers more and playing the mechanics with Vizla even is making things more difficult for you. The other SOR FPs suffer the same issue to some degree, though are not as demanding, yet few of the mechanics are really as sophisticated as in the classic FPs, with the exception of Rishi bonus boss. Too many similar mechanics and none of them that important compared to the DPS/healing checks.

 

If that is the future design of FPs, I'll rarely run them, big damage checks, huge health pools as the main thing are just too boring for doing them more than once.

[Tsillah]

You could try to enforce some sort of basic knowledge about the roles with proving/training grounds you need to finish before being able to list for that role.

Properly done players should know what to expect for their chosen role, not to stand in stupid, that there is something like interrupt, cleanse, def CDs and all these little things players have to make FPs a breeze if used properly.

A gear score will just result in fewer players running FPs per GF, until the gear limit is easy to reach, then it won't make any difference to now, as bolster usually does take care of bad gear well enough.

It's still not enforcing because just like exams only test what you know at that moment, people forget a lot of the stuff they studied, especially if they don't care.

 

However, I have suggested that there should be a set of challenges that teach people one thing at a time, like taunting, interrupting, meeting a dps target, a heal target and running out of damage circles and that these should be mandatory to start group content. Never got much of a response to these suggestions though.

 

And that for each level of difficulty. It should be a solo instance to for those challenges. No help, you need to do it yourself.

 

If that is the future design of FPs, I'll rarely run them, big damage checks, huge health pools as the main thing are just too boring for doing them more than once.

I'm way ahead of you there. I stopped playing FPs over 2.5 years ago, maybe 3 years ago. Why? Because I ran into too much stupid but, and this is also important, they haven't been rewarding for a long time. The loot is crap, the decorations have a really low drop rate and I really don't care about this GC gambling loot.

 

So for me this change is maybe a step in the right direction for me, but I won't go do FPs because of it, simply because I still don't see them as rewarding. I only do the solo FPs that are part of a storyline like those particularly boring ones in SoR.