The problem with Sorcs/Sages.

[Lokai]

Actually if really look as far as CC goes BH and Sorc/sage have same exact CC's almost down to letter, have differant look and name but basically the same. Boils down to these though...

 

Force Speed

Static Barrior

 

vs

 

Heavy armor

AOEs

Better damage

 

honestly i think people are blowing it out or proportion i have a Sorc and a Trooper and i can tell you ONLY thing makes Sorc better healer is, fact that trooper has a ceiling he will hit during healing but damage, is rather insane in comparison and so much aoe.

[Stratoforce]

Actually if really look as far as CC goes BH and Sorc/sage have same exact CC's almost down to letter, have differant look and name but basically the same. Boils down to these though...

 

Force Speed

Static Barrior

 

vs

 

Heavy armor

AOEs

Better damage

 

honestly i think people are blowing it out or proportion i have a Sorc and a Trooper and i can tell you ONLY thing makes Sorc better healer is, fact that trooper has a ceiling he will hit during healing but damage, is rather insane in comparison and so much aoe.

 

 

Heavy armor doesn't do anything unless you are a tank.

 

Sages/Sorcerers got a Slow, Ranged stun, PBAoE, and a cast time CC, Ranged interrupt.

 

Commandos have, one PBAoE, Cryo Grenade, and a huge cast time CC.

 

Commandos don't mitigate as much damage as sages/sorcerers. So much so I have my guild sage tell me to reroll sage instead of playing hard mode PvP healing.

[Lokai]

Heavy armor doesn't do anything unless you are a tank.

 

Sages/Sorcerers got a Slow, Ranged stun, PBAoE, and a cast time CC, Ranged interrupt.

 

Commandos have, one PBAoE, Cryo Grenade, and a huge cast time CC.

 

Commandos don't mitigate as much damage as sages/sorcerers. So much so I have my guild sage tell me to reroll sage instead of playing hard mode PvP healing.

 

they are same skills...

 

Whirl Wind: 1.5 second cast Concussive Round: 2 second cast both knock enemy out for 60 seconds, and regen hp while out.

 

Electricute/Cryonade: stuns target for 4 seconds same ability differant name

 

Overload/Concussive Charge: aoe knock back only the troopers version, snares for 4 seconds the Sorcs does not.

 

These are basic CC's for both classes they are the same ones! so boils down to cooldowns and escapes and, fact that a trooper doesn't get a damage absorbtion shield and sorc does... but anyone who has played mmos knows that while shield rocks now...soon as we start getting end tier gear shields going to get out scaled by our damage.

 

Edit: my point is everyone is complaining about sorcs control but everyone else has same basic control powers for most part and snare doesnt last long enough to be worthwhile when almost every melee class has a snare is equal or better.

 

In a group setting taking an Sorc/sage down should be easy... i know my friend and i do fine killing them together.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lokai

[CHRISGG]

Mercenary always did more damage than commando in beta.

 

my godddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

[Sugarpill]

I'm a 36 Sorc and yes, I get TONS of utility -- CCs, snares, et cetra -- but I don't get the insane burst DPS that many other classes get that make up for it. Even my AoE is fairly lackluster and minimal in comparison to Troopers and Bounty Hunters. Worse yet, if my stuff is on CD, I get ripped apart like the paper tiger I am.

 

Sorcs are fine, IMO. I'm not one or two shotting people, and I am unable to lock someone down 100-0. All of my 1v1 fights are a careful juggle of skills and kiting, and if I am unable to control distance between me and my target for extended periods of time, most classes will out-damage me fairly quickly.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sugarpill

[gmanfunk]

I love sorc they kick **********

[Epocha]

Doesn't all this nerf sorc vs sorc are balanced remind anyone else of WoW launch and people calling nerfs to Shamans because of their heal/cc/dps?

[Lokai]

Doesn't all this nerf sorc vs sorc are balanced remind anyone else of WoW launch and people calling nerfs to Shamans because of their heal/cc/dps?

 

people are complaining because are alot more sorc/sages then trooper/bh healers right now, and i can tell you at least in last 3-4 matches top damage and healing has been trooper... and almost impossible to bring down quickly combined with huge aoes, and damage reductions are nothing to be scoffed at.

 

Edit: people are also assuming alot of things to, and judging based off of disorganized pvp usually amounts to either unbalanced class composition, lack of team work, or small scale pvp 1 vs 1/2vs2 ect which isn't a good indication of real organized pvp... which is why i say i dont think game is as bad as people say it is.

 

Only REAL issue is lack of diminishing returns in game...which is the problem... not one person stunning you its fact EVERY class has at least 1-2 stuns and can get chain stunned by various people... not one person doing it... and thats ONLY real issue i see with pvp atm.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lokai

[MetallicaRulez]

I'm actually surprised more people aren't complaining about Commando/Mercenary. Much higher damage than Sorc/Sage, more passive mitigation, the best PBAOE knockback in the game by a huge margin, and a melee range knockback on a 6s cooldown that can be used as an interrupt or to knock people off walkways/bridges.

 

Sorc/Sages do stack up well, and that shield and force speed are pretty absurd, but their damage is nowhere even close to Merc/Commando, Shadow/Assassin, or Operative/Scoundrel. I'm all in favor of nerfing the shield, but everything else is totally fine with them I think.

 

Oh, and perhaps remove the snare on Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw. It's a little much to have a 30yd range spammable snare in addition to all their other CC.

[Ramurdyne]

What you guys dont understand is that sorcs and sages are like wow priests and mages rolled into one. heres why they are so powerful. They have a shield that absorbs ALL damage during this time they can heal themselves to full health what makes it even more absurd is that they can repeat this process 2- 3 times a fight they also have a move that dooes the same thing that the troopers harpoon does but on top of that they have a force sprint a instant low cooldown LONG RANGED cc. Further they have decent enough dps to kill. with the toolbox of a mage and the healing abilities of a priest they are extremely difficult to fight effectively

[kilomax]

Imo Sage/Seer at least,

 

I get rofled by nearly all Dps out there, around most levels even under leveled Dps. Not because I'm bad at playing but because I just cannot sustane the onslaught of 1 v 1 or more.

 

I get a basic Crowd Control which all have high cooldowns and lack lusting 1 get out of jail free card which again just gets wasted when your chain bummed anyway. Shield is good early game and a 1 hit wonder at high levels if people are doing over 2k in dmg per shot swing you name it. All our decent Offencive spells take 1.5 - 3secs and have long cooldowns once used and mostly require you to stand like a wet letice while you get sredded in seconds! The HoT Scales in a bad way I don't think it's even enough other than a proc activator and maybe a topup. What makes life even worse is the near 100% UP debuff of -30% healing at all levels in PVP it seems. Offset is more like a mega nerf unless I suppose your wearing some serious battlemaster/endgame gear!

 

I really don't feel like I'm helping while supporting at all at the moment while all these Medium armoured classes are just tearing up the Highway with mass ease!

 

I'm learning but Other than having gear above Artifact at the moment it doesn't seem like were the sort of glass cannons were made out to be or healers for that matter.

[TheFishes]

Sorcs and Sages should be nerfed in PVP. I don't wanna touch their PVE balance if at all possible. Notice I said Sorcs AND Sages. Proper class names AND listed both mirrors.

 

 

-----WALL OF TEXT THAT I ACTUALLY DID READ------

 

**Note I also realize that part of this problem could be universal across all hybrid healers. Commando's/Merc's and Scoundrels/Operatives have all been complained about regularly and seem a bit more useful than other classes as well used properly.

 

While I disagree with most, if not all of your post, I can in fact appreciate the well constructed, educated, and grammatically correct way in which it was presented!

 

I'll address this fully once I'm at work tomorrow... But for now...

 

THANK YOU FOR BEING AHEAD OF THE CURVE!!!!

Edited December 29, 2011 by TheFishes

[CommandoPower]

I enjoy the fact that I motivated you to actually go and look up the classes you talk about so much. If only you did it for the one this thread is about.

 

Sorry but I do verify my info. No way I'm gonna remember everything offa the top of my head. Even if I use most of it already.

 

Best post in this thread. I'd say another bracket just for 50s though because the gear they get seems to be more than the advertized 10%.

 

And yes sages can do mean things to lower levels, but at equal level 45+ we take a beating on a regular basis.

 

Emphatically agreed with. Remove the 50 issue and the remaining 40+ will be far easier to deal with. A level 50 class is twice as hard to deal with as a level 40 class. This goes doubly so for every utility or support ability you have. This will enable clearer and more decisive decision making on balance.

 

For some reason I don't see what the big deal is with sorcs/sages. If I think based on who had the best kill/death ratio in just about every game I played there is usually a bounty hunter or trooper who's on top.

 

My DPS smugs regularly top damage and kill charts FIGHTING AT THE OBJECTIVES. Problem is that 200k dmg and 40 kills is nowhere near as effective as 100k+ dmg, 20 kills, 200k healed, 30k prevented. *legal print* numbers are fictitious and meant to illustrate a point. While achievable it is not a specific example per se .

 

And if you ever played an mmo you'd know developers do not balance with 1 vs 1 in mind...

 

Is sage/Sorc strong? yes no doubt about it they are EXTREAMLY verstile... but are not unkillable god like beings...

 

I agree with you on teams. However a classes 1 vs 1 capability determines how much you need to look after them in teams. No need to peel off and help many times if they can vape something for example unless you specifically NEED their support right then. Your time might be better spent taking out a priority target if they can hold their own.

 

Also, doubly agreed that Healing classes should have to choose more on DPS or Healing. I don't think it should be a crazy reduction from what it is. But I believe some is needed. They hybrid too well in general. I should not be able to top the DPS/kill board in a healer spec or even get close. I should be capable of middle of the pack.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also in reference to Bounty Hunters and Troopers:

 

Armor doesn't do as much as you'd think without the proper abilities set, which limit your damage and mean your vanguard. Most of their survivability comes from shields/ion cell armor increase. I mean we are talking a 20% mitigation boost plus additional 40-50% damage taken off 40-50% of attacks.

 

The reason you see them topping damage/kill charts is that decently played vanguards are using guard, taunts, smoke grenades, and lathering on damage. Naturally those they are protecting heal them. As a result they do a good bit of damage over time, but will never compete with commando or smugs.

 

If you give up the protection you can get more dps but you'll be alot closer to commando squishieness, or even just as squishy depending on how you itemize/spec. That is a LARGE difference. Commando's only saving grace survival-wise is they can spam heals on themselves and survive pretty decently until CC'd or interrupted. Unlike a sorc that can shield away much of the damage unless focused, commando will be eating damage and it will add up fairly quickly unless they stop to heal themselves.

 

I've killed many commando's caught in the heal loop desperately stalling for help to arrive. Pressure damage, pressure damage, interrupt or CC, SPIKE!! Dead commando with any class provided yall are on an even level/gear playing field. Meaning not a 50 commando vs a 20 class.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[CommandoPower]

While I disagree with most, if not all of your post, I can in fact appreciate the well constructed, educated, and grammatically correct way in which it was presented!

 

I'll address this fully once I'm at work tomorrow... But for now...

 

THANK YOU FOR BEING AHEAD OF THE CURVE!!!!

 

Thanks, I do try and deliver points as clearly separated and detailed as possible. It's frustrating at times to get a verbose equivalent of LOLYURDUM back as it contributes little to nothing without some solid supportive reasoning and perhaps an example or two of where they believe I am misguided.

 

Alas class balance is an exceedingly complex issue and thus the critical hit I deliver via WALL OF TEXT is inevitable at some point to cover it in detail. I do apologize for the long read however.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[sw_dragon]

What a whiney post, seriously all your points are lame. This one in particular

 

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

 

So you are saying, less than 3 people (i.e 2 people) under level 40 cant kill a level 50 geared Sorc... Um i think thats perfectly reasonable.

 

I dont even know what to make of the rest of your complaints

[Tallian]

I find them extremely hard to kill because they have the CC abilities that last a pretty long time and with no real way to get out of these CC's you can have you and another teammate killed by just the one guy.

 

The abilities should just have a damage reduction because their ranged attacks definitely are pretty over powered. Wasting through 1/3rd of my health in a single attack, and i Play a Sith marauder, with about 12k health in the PvP zones.

 

That wasn't one attack. The only way a sage/sorc can do that much in what looks like a single attack is affliction+crushing darkness+force lightning so you get all 3 ticking at the same time. Crushing darkness has a 2 sec cast time, and a 15 second cooldown.

 

More likely tho, it was not just the sorc hitting you, but the lightning effect hid the bullets hitting you.

 

edited cause I'm dumb

Edited December 29, 2011 by Tallian

[romaz]

did bioware even say what they are balancing the pvp around? 1v1? warzones? cause right now i dont see anything competitive around pvp atm. it looks like bioware has a ton of issues to work on atm and just gave us some maps to pvp on since thats better than nothing but the pvp has a ton of stuff to work out. maybe they will add pre-made vs pre-mades later or some kinda arena system or something totally knew but there is nothing competitive about queing as a premade against a lvl 10-50 pug

[MetallicaRulez]

Commando's only saving grace survival-wise is they can spam heals on themselves and survive pretty decently until CC'd or interrupted.

 

I disagree. A Commando's biggest defensive advantage is their offense. I do more damage than anyone, period. 1v1, you have no chance of outlasting my DPS without CC help from a friend. I don't need utility, or mobility, or defensive abilities... I just stand in place and crit you in the face for 7k burst a couple times.

 

I have yet to lose an even 1v1 against ANYONE on my Commando. Gunnery DPS = nuts.

 

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

 

Commandos eat Sorcerers for breakfast 1v1 unless you're terrible. Grav Round x3 Demo Round High Impact Bolt. YA DEAD BRAH.

Edited December 29, 2011 by MetallicaRulez

[Tallian]

Thanks, I do try and deliver points as clearly separated and detailed as possible. It's frustrating at times to get a verbose equivalent of LOLYURDUM back as it contributes little to nothing without some solid supportive reasoning and perhaps an example or two of where they believe I am misguided.

 

Alas class balance is an exceedingly complex issue and thus the critical hit I deliver via WALL OF TEXT is inevitable at some point to cover it in detail. I do apologize for the long read however.

 

The fact is, tho, half your issues are related to trying to kill a geared level 50 at anything below 50, which SHOULD be hard. We just need to get them their own bracket to be more powerful than us in, and thats coming.

 

The rest of your issues get less and less relevant over time. They are VERY true at level 20, but its all downhill from there, in terms of power relative to the other classes.

 

At level 42, 1v1, I could kill very few people, because damage output is low enough that everyone can power through it, and you can only CC someone so many times before your screwed. Juggs and Troopers ignore my damage while they wail on me, Marauders jump to me, and I am pretty much splattered, and everyone else can sneak up on you quite easily in a chaotic battlefield. My (specced)bubble will eat 2 attacks, if I am VERY lucky, and force speed only buys me about a second and 30 meters or so to try and break los because someone is gonna jump me again. My heals suck(since I am DPS speced)maxing out at about 2600 on a crit on my long cast heal, and did you know its really hard to cast at someone while your trying to run away because your gonna die the moment they get a good shot?

 

I can cause absolute chaos in the enemy ranks, and if I get the drop on someone they are gonna die, but if you come after me, most of my good stuff will be on cooldown(because its good and so gets used) and the rest of my arsenal is useless because I can't cast while moving.

 

Yes, Sage/sorc is a powerful class, with alot of survival utility. Sadly, that survival utility goes away very quickly under a focused assault.

[RhythmEmotion]

I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees... The main reason I have trouble with sorcs is cause I can't consistently use the tools I got for shutting them down due to the crap responsiveness, targetting, glitching, etc... it has little to do with their class overall. In those rare moments the ui does exactly what I tell it, scoundrels are op.

[Aowar]

I guess you got killed one too many times by a Sorc/Sage huh?

 

I don't even know why I look at these threads, they are all pathetic and laughable

 

 

 

Aww look the sorc is pissed about his incoming nerf.

[Ezrya]

Between playing a Sage myself, and fighting against Sorcerers, I agree with most of your post -- particularly the stacking issue.

 

There are several reasons why Consulars and Inquisitors stack so well. One of them is the absence of a meaningful diminishing returns mechanic. The Resolve bar does nothing to prevent stacking multiple CC's of the same type, which is one of the reasons to have a DR mechanic in the first place. Currently you can chain-whirlwind your way to victory.

 

Then there's the lack of synergy buffs. You don't group with another class and think "yay, now I get 5% increased alacrity" or something. Every class is pretty much equally effective regardless of the other classes that are in the group. So overall, where you would expect the team with a variety to have an advantage, it becomes a matter of stacking the single most powerful/useful class.

 

Another issue is that there is VERY LITTLE in the Sage/Sorcerer healing tree that actually buffs healing output. The healing talents all revolve around synergy and sustainability, neither of which matter very much in PVP. So a non-healing specced Sage or Sorcerer is still a fully capable healer, they're just a fully capable healer with 3 healing buttons instead of 6. And I doubt they're missing our AOE heal or our HoT very much -- especially since they have easy access to the Force Armor/Static Barrier talents. All this on top of some pretty impressive damage, utility, and crowd-control.

 

Several times I've done matches as a fully specced healer, and done over 250k healing, with my groupmates doing just as much damage -- but we've lost to teams with 5 inquisitors who were doing 50k damage and 50k healing a piece. All you need to do is stack the class, and everyone can keep themselves alive, while also providing duplicates of the best crowd control and utility abilities currently in the game (the AOE knockback & friendly pull are ridiculously useful in Huttball).

[Tallian]

Between playing a Sage myself, and fighting against Sorcerers, I agree with most of your post -- particularly the stacking issue.

 

There are several reasons why Consulars and Inquisitors stack so well. One of them is the absence of a meaningful diminishing returns mechanic. The Resolve bar does nothing to prevent stacking multiple CC's of the same type, which is one of the reasons to have a DR mechanic in the first place. Currently you can chain-whirlwind your way to victory.

 

Then there's the lack of synergy buffs. You don't group with another class and think "yay, now I get 5% increased alacrity" or something. Every class is pretty much equally effective regardless of the other classes that are in the group. So overall, where you would expect the team with a variety to have an advantage, it becomes a matter of stacking the single most powerful/useful class.

 

Another issue is that there is VERY LITTLE in the Sage/Sorcerer healing tree that actually buffs healing output. The healing talents all revolve around synergy and sustainability, neither of which matter very much in PVP. So a non-healing specced Sage or Sorcerer is still a fully capable healer, they're just a fully capable healer with 3 healing buttons instead of 6. And I doubt they're missing our AOE heal or our HoT very much -- especially since they have easy access to the Force Armor/Static Barrier talents. All this on top of some pretty impressive damage, utility, and crowd-control.

 

Several times I've done matches as a fully specced healer, and done over 250k healing, with my groupmates doing just as much damage -- but we've lost to teams with 5 inquisitors who were doing 50k damage and 50k healing a piece. All you need to do is stack the class, and everyone can keep themselves alive, while also providing duplicates of the best crowd control and utility abilities currently in the game (the AOE knockback & friendly pull are ridiculously useful in Huttball).

 

Thats not really a class imbalance issue, tho. That a game mechanic issue, and should be fixed if they ever fix the resolve bar(or put in diminishing returns)

[Princz]

Aww look the sorc is pissed about his incoming nerf.

 

 

Now please tell me that you are a Snipper or a Gunslinger... to laugh more

[CHRISGG]

Between playing a Sage myself, and fighting against Sorcerers, I agree with most of your post -- particularly the stacking issue.

 

There are several reasons why Consulars and Inquisitors stack so well. One of them is the absence of a meaningful diminishing returns mechanic. The Resolve bar does nothing to prevent stacking multiple CC's of the same type, which is one of the reasons to have a DR mechanic in the first place. Currently you can chain-whirlwind your way to victory.

 

Then there's the lack of synergy buffs. You don't group with another class and think "yay, now I get 5% increased alacrity" or something. Every class is pretty much equally effective regardless of the other classes that are in the group. So overall, where you would expect the team with a variety to have an advantage, it becomes a matter of stacking the single most powerful/useful class.

 

Another issue is that there is VERY LITTLE in the Sage/Sorcerer healing tree that actually buffs healing output. The healing talents all revolve around synergy and sustainability, neither of which matter very much in PVP. So a non-healing specced Sage or Sorcerer is still a fully capable healer, they're just a fully capable healer with 3 healing buttons instead of 6. And I doubt they're missing our AOE heal or our HoT very much -- especially since they have easy access to the Force Armor/Static Barrier talents. All this on top of some pretty impressive damage, utility, and crowd-control.

 

Several times I've done matches as a fully specced healer, and done over 250k healing, with my groupmates doing just as much damage -- but we've lost to teams with 5 inquisitors who were doing 50k damage and 50k healing a piece. All you need to do is stack the class, and everyone can keep themselves alive, while also providing duplicates of the best crowd control and utility abilities currently in the game (the AOE knockback & friendly pull are ridiculously useful in Huttball).

 

You know nothing about the classes in this game. "You can chain whirlwind your way to victory" - do you know what this skill "flashbang" does? It's a baseline instant cast aoe crowd control. 3 classes get a far superior CC spell to Sage/Sorcs.

 

Non healing specced Mercs/Commandos and Ops/Scoundrels can also heal well without being specced.

 

If you're losing to ******* who can only manage 50k healing and 50k damage a game you might want to focus on actual objectives rather than running around like a mongoloid.

 

The AoE knockback is not the best crowd control in the game, infact it's not even the best knockback. It has a 1+ second animation delay and it only knocks back about 2 feet. It's far, far worse than the mercenary/commando knockback and the guardian/jugg singletarget knockback, while being about equal with the gunslinger/sniper knockback.

 

Rescue is nowhere near as game changing as force leap+guardian leap in huttball, and huttball is garbage anyway so who cares?

 

Anyway, you're basically talking as if every other class in the game doesn't get any spells at all. I hope this post educated you, because you most definitely did not know any of this.