The problem with Sorcs/Sages.

[CommandoPower]

Sorcs and Sages should be nerfed in PVP. I don't wanna touch their PVE balance if at all possible. Notice I said Sorcs AND Sages. Proper class names AND listed both mirrors.

 

 

As far as my reasoning summarized:

 

Sorcs/Sages possess decent to good DPS, decent to fantastic healing/protection, a heavy dose of CC (some of which resolve doesn't do anything against even WHEN it works), and have excellent area control. In addition they have some fantastic tactical skills.

 

Specific points:

 

1. Using their full kit they have a distinct advantage in 1 on 1 with double CC.

 

They have 2 CC and if the sorc is smart 1 will stick for full duration. If the mezz sticks they can heal up mid fight, if the stun sticks they have 4 free seconds or come up even against you (if you have double CC). Furthermore they also have a snare which resolve is useless against (if it works right for once lol)

 

2. sorcs/sage scale multiplicatively in groups.

 

The CC/healing/protection factor contributes progressively MORE per person for every additional sorc/sage that is added. In addition as a virtual swiss army knife if there is enough healing/protection they can contribute quite meaningful DPS.

 

3. This DPS/healing/protection is all at range.

 

Scoundrels/Operatives at least have to get close and in the fray to dps instead of heal. This keeps them safer as well as lets them attack from 1 level to another. Commando's/Merc's can do this as well with a bit more passive protection. But they lack the utility, the plethora of CC, and the protective bubble. In this case the extra damage does not make up for it because as a result they lose alot of their utility and multiplicative stacking in groups.

 

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

 

This causes a problem because you cannot shut down their DPS (moderate but sustained without level/gear bonus) or their healing/protection. (Fantastic if spec'd for). Not everyone has been playing for a long time or wishes to play ONLY one character. Level to 50 is not a valid point for competitive PVP in which all levels are included.

 

5. Force speed and survival

 

If a fight goes badly it's normally a simple matter for any sorc/sage to force speed away and heal up or grab a healing powerup. They will not wait until you can burst them down during a 4 second CC to do this unless they are braindead.

 

6. Force speed and objectives.

 

I'm sure your all like "you're stupid, force speed is on a long CD and not as good as you make it out to be." Fair enough.

 

HOWEVER, force speed is one of the single most tactically useful skills in the game atm. Simply by allowing one to reach one area much faster in a clutch situation sorc/sage gain a significant advantage. Reinforcing or saving turret, defusing/placing bombs, running the huttball across key stretch of ground (even wiser when combined with a pass). Force Speed is an objective acheiver and WZ's are based around objectives. Thus wise usage of force speed can provide quite significant advantages.

 

It's up to each sorc/sage to decide whether to use Force Speed for objectives or to save their own hides. Either can easily be game changing if used properly.

 

 

7. PBAOE kb.

 

Other classes have this too, however this is on top of their other skills and contributes greatly to their excellent area control and tactical use in huttball/alderann/voidstar.

 

8. Not a point BUT,

 

I do want to say that using a sorc/sage does take quite a bit of skill to use to their full potential, but that potential currently surpasses all other classes in PVP and only gets stronger with each additional supportive class added.

 

 

 

For the record YES, I did indeed just get whomped by Sorcs in the WZ's. Wouldn't be any better than being whomped by sages. Enemy team had a whopping 6 sorcs, 1 Sith Juggernaut, and 1 Mercenary. With that much stacked protection/healing we were almost completely unable to hurt anyone between the shields/healing/cc and their damage was still high enough (moderate and sustained as said) to chew through us at a quick clip.

 

This is most of the same people that previously wiped several WZ's of sith. Not because all the sith were bads, but because most of us were good players. Though we did indeed have 2 matches against bads lol. But even good players cannot do their job when CC'd constantly and facing that much healing/protection.

 

 

 

The real question to answer is: Why play anything but sorc/sage in PVP when they are good 1 on 1 and stack so well? If that is left unanswered, other than "for fun", then I believe we all know that entire guilds will run sorc/sage premades. With token Guardians/Juggernauts.

 

 

*NOTE: I know that they are not as impressive as 50's vs other properly geared 50's. If it's possible in any way to lower their early game and keep them competitive at 50, I'd be all for that. I don't want to make any class worthless, but I don't want them ROFLSTOMPING people either.

 

**Note I also realize that part of this problem could be universal across all hybrid healers. Commando's/Merc's and Scoundrels/Operatives have all been complained about regularly and seem a bit more useful than other classes as well used properly.

Edited December 28, 2011 by CommandoPower

[Draconus-Spawn]

I guess you got killed one too many times by a Sorc/Sage huh?

 

I don't even know why I look at these threads, they are all pathetic and laughable

[CHRISGG]

At no point in your post did you bring up an actual relevant point, you simply talked about how you think things may or may not work. You do not display an actual understanding of how the class functions or how any other class functions, with your comment that Operatives/Scoundrels need to be in melee to heal effectively. This post should be ignored because it's really bad, but because you posted to appeal to the popular opinion and you made it look big and important, it will get like 10 pages.

 

The end.

[Bibdy]

That's funny. A single Force Pull from me seems to be more than enough to vaporize them. It's weird because I'm just a tank, and don't really do all that much damage!

 

Oh right, we actually work together to kill people instead of pretending that its a 1v1 game with 14 other people in the room.

[CommandoPower]

At no point in your post did you bring up an actual relevant point, you simply talked about how you think things may or may not work. You do not display an actual understanding of how the class functions or how any other class functions, with your comment that Operatives/Scoundrels need to be in melee to heal effectively. This post should be ignored because it's really bad, but because you posted to appeal to the popular opinion and you made it look big and important, it will get like 10 pages.

 

The end.

 

Of course this is your opinion and is just as valid as mine. But it does not stop mine from also being valid.

 

However I can confidently say you are quite false on the lack of experience. I will admit lacking high level experience with sorc/sage freely, though you get most of their skills fairly quickly correct? Fast bloomers and all. I have however studied them for quite some time before making my own thread with itemized points.

 

Also note the bolded underlined point in your quote. The following was taken from my OP verbatim:

 

"Scoundrels/Operatives at least have to get close and in the fray to dps instead of heal."

 

You are proven simply flat out wrong in that particular statement. No and's, no if's, no but's, no excuses. You simply misread. No worries though, it happens to all of us including myself.

 

I guess you got killed one too many times by a Sorc/Sage huh?

 

I don't even know why I look at these threads, they are all pathetic and laughable

 

I've used them quite a bit as well, though not to high level. Even when I don't get high up on the dmg/healer boards I create absolute havoc in the enemies' attempt to achieve anything objective based. I'm not so blind as to think that dps/healing is all that matters in WZ's after all.

 

That's funny. A single Force Pull from me seems to be more than enough to vaporize them. It's weird because I'm just a tank, and don't really do all that much damage!

 

Oh right, we actually work together to kill people instead of pretending that its a 1v1 game with 14 other people in the room.

 

Your quite correct, mid to low level sorcs/sages are not incredibly durable without support if you can catch them off-guard or get off burst on them. Their 1 vs 1 strength relies on them starting the battle on at even footing or better as they ARE more susceptible to being taken by surprise than many mid/low level.

 

However 2 things. 1st if they are high level/50 and geared and you are not your in big trouble. 2ndly as you said it's a team game. As mentioned they stack multiplicatively in teams. They are a force multiplier to themselves and others, pardon the pun.

 

Also to have force pull that means you yourself are getting up there in levels correct?

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[mrkab]

1. Using their full kit they have a distinct advantage in 1 on 1 with double CC.

 

They have 2 CC and if the sorc is smart 1 will stick for full duration. If the mezz sticks they can heal up mid fight, if the stun sticks they have 4 free seconds or come up even against you (if you have double CC). Furthermore they also have a snare which resolve is useless against (if it works right for once lol)

 

All healers do. Commando has the same, Scoundrel has more.

 

2. sorcs/sage scale multiplicatively in groups.

 

The CC/healing/protection factor contributes progressively MORE per person for every additional sorc/sage that is added. In addition as a virtual swiss army knife if there is enough healing/protection they can contribute quite meaningful DPS.

 

Which is just as true of every other healer.

 

3. This DPS/healing/protection is all at range.

 

Scoundrels/Operatives at least have to get close and in the fray to dps instead of heal. This keeps them safer as well as lets them attack from 1 level to another. Commando's/Merc's can do this as well with a bit more passive protection. But they lack the utility, the plethora of CC, and the protective bubble. In this case the extra damage does not make up for it because as a result they lose alot of their utility and multiplicative stacking in groups.

 

No they don't. Commandos heal and DPS at range. Scoundrel can heal and DPS at range, or they can go for more of a hybrid melee/range style. They also have stealth and cover. It depends in part on spec.

 

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

 

This causes a problem because you cannot shut down their DPS (moderate but sustained without level/gear bonus) or their healing/protection. (Fantastic if spec'd for). Not everyone has been playing for a long time or wishes to play ONLY one character. Level to 50 is not a valid point for competitive PVP in which all levels are included.

 

As does every other class with a healer present, whether that be themselves or another.

 

5. Force speed and survival

 

If a fight goes badly it's normally a simple matter for any sorc/sage to force speed away and heal up or grab a healing powerup. They will not wait until you can burst them down during a 4 second CC to do this unless they are braindead.

 

As opposed to stealth, heavy armor, slows, jumps, etc.?

 

6. Force speed and objectives.

 

I'm sure your all like "you're stupid, force speed is on a long CD and not as good as you make it out to be." Fair enough.

 

HOWEVER, force speed is one of the single most tactically useful skills in the game atm. Simply by allowing one to reach one area much faster in a clutch situation sorc/sage gain a significant advantage. Reinforcing or saving turret, defusing/placing bombs, running the huttball across key stretch of ground (even wiser when combined with a pass). Force Speed is an objective acheiver and WZ's are based around objectives. Thus wise usage of force speed can provide quite significant advantages.

 

Right, and so is a leap or a harpoon.

 

It's up to each sorc/sage to decide whether to use Force Speed for objectives or to save their own hides. Either can easily be game changing if used properly.

 

7. PBAOE kb.

 

Other classes have this too, however this is on top of their other skills and contributes greatly to their excellent area control and tactical use in huttball/alderann/voidstar.

 

Yes, it is on top of other skills, as with all other classes.

 

TL;DR you didn't bring up a single valid point. Everything you've said applies to several, if not most, of the classes in the game. If your points are valid reasons to nerf, then you're arguing for nerfing virtually every class in the game. Certainly every healer.

 

We've had this argument for six months and it's still just as wrong as it was then. More than once I've posted hard data showing the absurdity of so many claims made about the Sage/Sorc. It's really getting old.

 

The only thing Sage/Sorc has going for them more than any other class is they get key abilities very very early whereas many others have to wait until 20-30. There's nothing inherently wrong with the class itself and I sure as hell don't think Bioware should be balancing because it's "unfair" that one class gets something a few hours earlier than another.

Edited December 29, 2011 by mrkab

[Tamernator]

About Force Speed:

 

Will you satisfy if they remove speed force and give sorcerers the teleport like mages have in WOW ? Will you then stop complaining about it like crazy ?

 

Notice that teleport is even worse for others than speed force becuz it gets away from you imidiatelly but yet WOW MAGE GOT THAT TELEPORT.

[LazyManul]

Win button want you?

[carai]

Assassins/shadow have an execute ability. I have destroyed many a sorcs shield in 1 blow. They aren't that tough.

[Cameirus]

I dont really agree.

 

They lack burst, and can be killed quite quickly if you focus them. Their healing does not seam very bursty to me to keep up.

 

 

As for force speed - well, its no worse then the grab ability of bountyhunters, the jump ability of jedi knights, both of which can be incredibly op in the right situation, as can force speed, but its the player that makes it good not the oponent. IF a sage has the hutball, keep your stun or grab or charge to counter force speed.....

[Korvad]

Against marauders/sentinels, sure this guys seem to be op as hell.

[Dystopic]

They have a lot of tools and can work with other classes well. But they are kind of squishy and overly popular because PURPLE LIGHTNING!

[Vlaid]

Sages/Inquisitors that know how to kite and use LOS to bubble+heal are pretty godly.

 

But I'd fight a 100x sages before I play a good IA/Smuggler or Shadow/Assassin. Played well those guys destroy everything.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Vlaid

[CommandoPower]

All healers do. Commando has the same, Scoundrel has more. Which is just as true of every other healer.

 

I did have a note at the end saying that some of the problems are universal to all hybrid healers .

 

Also specifically on the multiplicative stacking. It's worse with Sorcs/Sage since they have good healing, good CC, and good tactical skills. It's a better combined package making them have, for lack of a better phrase, a bigger multiplier.

 

If commandos/mercs/scoundrels/operatives have all of the following: plentiful cc, great healing, protective bubbles, pbaoe kb, ranged slow, force speed equivalent, decent dps, health stealing, and ally move speed boost all possible in a single build. THEN they would multiply as well.

 

For illustrative purposes, not proposing an actual build: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_inquisitor/sorcerer/#::f19e4fe10fe3f2ef4edf4efcf3:

 

No they don't. Commandos heal and DPS at range. Scoundrel can heal and DPS at range, or they can go for more of a hybrid melee/range style. They also have stealth and cover. It depends in part on spec.

 

I stand corrected as I have spoken incorrectly on scoundrel/operative and was not clear on commandos/merc. Commandos/mercs CAN dps at range is what I meant. Scoundrels/Operatives can indeed dps at range as you said, albeit they will get nowhere near their full DPS and it will be very energy intensive or it will be even lower damage indeed.

 

I'm quite good at scoundrel and even dirty fighting spec'd you'll get nowhere near your true dps unless you mix it up in the fray. Cover is good for burst mostly. You'll also have difficult maintaining pugnacity consistently unless you take the sawbones talents and heal something here and there, as well as losing access to all of your CC and quickshot/back blast/etc.

 

Scoundrels, outside of heal spec, are meant to be in the nitty gritty of combat.

 

 

 

As does every other class with a healer present, whether that be themselves or another.

 

The problem with Sage/Sorc specifically for 50's is the combo of the high level damage reduction, plentiful CC, force speed, and shield bubbles. This makes them MORE durable than any other class on it's own vs lower levels. If you have to add another person to make someone as durable as a sorc/sage by itself then you've already radically skewed the comparison. To be even in that case you'd have to give the sorc/sage another person when compared to the non-healing classes.

 

 

As opposed to stealth, heavy armor, slows, jumps, etc.?

 

Stealth doesn't get you out of bad situations and is useful mainly for assasins and the occasional ninja objective (which only works vs bads not guarding them), though vanish might (combined with cleanse). Still vanish is on a 3 minute CD and force speed is on a 30 second CD.

 

Unless your facing horrendous spike damage bubbles/healing is better than heavy armor, especially since armor does not protect vs everything. Sorc/Sage has slows. I don't think another healing class gets a jump, jump also needs a properly positioned target to help you escape.

 

 

 

 

 

Right, and so is a leap or a harpoon.

 

Force leap can be an objective achiever, but it means your going to need to kill someone to take it. Force speed helps you reach it before others and cap before opposition arrives/reacts. It's far easier to defend an objective than it is to take it when guarded.

 

Harpoon is an objective defender. Rarely it's also useful in taking an objective but it requires you to have someone else be achieving the objective. If we are talking team work then that comes into play in Force Speed too. Many is the time I died merely to slow someone down for a force speeder to plant a bomb, capture a turret, score with huttball.

 

 

 

It's up to each sorc/sage to decide whether to use Force Speed for objectives or to save their own hides. Either can easily be game changing if used properly.

 

 

Yes, it is on top of other skills, as with all other classes.

 

TL:DR you didn't bring up a single valid point. Everything you've said applies to several, if not most, of the classes in the game.

 

If your points are valid reasons to nerf, then you're arguing for nerfing virtually every class in the game. Certainly every healer.

 

 

Yes, the abilities are owned across many other classes in the game. However this one class has them all in one. Saying that X owns this too and Y owns that too is simply not arguing what I am saying. Your building a straw man to attack, because it is certainly not my original stance of all the abilities in one person making them better than any other single class.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[CHRISGG]

You really don't know what you're talking about at all. Operatives in general have much better utility and cc than sorcs or sages. This extends to healers as well. They also happen to do 3-4x the damage. Lol

[Ulfulf]

just l2p

 

i play an assassin and i have no problem against buttloads of BH/sorc/wth

the only really annoying thing about pvp is that every class has way too many CC's and that every class has a knockback.

also rangers seem a little OP, compared to melee. for some reason some classes can oneshot me (even lower levels). but i'm not a tank (using dark charge though) and i'm not really skilled into survival but dmg.

still i fell a little underpowered in dmg.

 

but the thing is: decent players can deal with that and still be good.

[CommandoPower]

About Force Speed:

 

Will you satisfy if they remove speed force and give sorcerers the teleport like mages have in WOW ? Will you then stop complaining about it like crazy ?

 

Notice that teleport is even worse for others than speed force becuz it gets away from you imidiatelly but yet WOW MAGE GOT THAT TELEPORT.

 

It's no single ability, certainly not force speed (useful as it is), that makes sorcs/sages currently overpowered. It's simply that they get too much in one package. Only force speed change I would really like is for it not to work while carrying the huttball. Of course this would include jumps too.

 

Not that I think it's super ultra terrible for huttball. But those abilities make it far too easy for a coordinated team to beat any team not near as coordinated. I still want them to smash the other team with superior teamwork, I just don't want it to be a 5 minute ROFLSTOMP. Let the other team have more of a chance to fight back. Put passing and sustained team work back as the primary means to achieve this instead of "pass to the force speeder/jumper on the platforms" hahaLOL scored from nuetral ball in 30 seconds.

 

Quite simply those abilities make the only real counter kb's and grapples for people on platforms because killing them can take too long and open up opportunities for them to score with another force speeder/jumper. Heck with jumpers you can't even leave your spawn without possibly helping them.

 

 

Sages/Inquisitors that know how to kite and use LOS to bubble+heal are pretty godly.

 

But I'd fight a 100x sages before I play a good IA/Smuggler or Shadow/Assassin. Played well those guys destroy everything.

 

You have a point, notice I wish to tone down Sorc/Sage mostly early game. With IA/Smuggler and Shadow/Assassin it's pretty much the exact opposite. They get retardedly strong late game. Most of that should be handled, for leveling players at least, when tiers get formed. It'll also put their effectiveness at 50 into sharp perspective at that point so perhaps they can be fixed at 50.

 

You really don't know what you're talking about at all. Operatives in general have much better utility and cc than sorcs or sages. This extends to healers as well. They also happen to do 3-4x the damage. Lol

 

I've personally never had an issue with an Operative that wasn't level 35-40+ as any class. Ya they hurt, and they are annoying with the taser stuns, but until that last level tier they are not that bad. I normally manage to shut down their healing/dmg or kill them as well depending on the class I'm playing. This is of course until they hit that last pivotal range where my ability to counter them slowly slips out of reach.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[Lokai]

you lost all credibility moment mentioned 1 vs 1...games balanced 8 vs 8 so means not an issue or at least not as big as your making it out as

[Sgt_shades]

Just wait till 50. You'll be tearing Sages apart. With new melee closers, our little tricks like slow and speed burst are pretty useless. Aside from the 4sec stun on a sizeable cooldown, we don't counter well. We just take alot of dmg.

[Reenolols]

3 40+'s to kill a sage? Lol?

[CommandoPower]

you lost all credibility moment mentioned 1 vs 1...games balanced 8 vs 8 so means not an issue or at least not as big as your making it out as

 

I mentioned both. This is a team game but even when playing with team work there are occasions where 1 on 1's DO HAPPEN. Thus it is still an important consideration when contemplating overall balance. Fact is, at least imo, that sorc/sage has it's proverbial cake and eats it too by excelling at team play while still being strong in a 1 on 1.

 

Just wait till 50. You'll be tearing Sages apart. With new melee closers, our little tricks like slow and speed burst are pretty useless. Aside from the 4sec stun on a sizeable cooldown, we don't counter well. We just take alot of dmg.

 

Agreed, I stated as much in my post. Though I realize it's alot to sift through. I do not want to lessen the impacts of sorc/sage in level 50 game play at all. I just want them to be less punishing to people that are not 50. I know that sounds impossible but I'm sure it isn't.

 

3 40+'s to kill a sage? Lol?

 

My apologies if I wasn't clear. 3 people lower than level 40 to kill a sage. Once you crest 40, or even 35 depending on class, you start doing meaningful damage to the higher level sages again. But lower than that can be really really nasty. As nasty as facing a 50 operative as a low level, albeit in a different way.

Edited December 29, 2011 by CommandoPower

[CHRISGG]

 

I've personally never had an issue with an Operative that wasn't level 35-40+ as any class. Ya they hurt, and they are annoying with the taser stuns, but until that last level tier they are not that bad. I normally manage to shut down their healing/dmg or kill them as well depending on the class I'm playing. This is of course until they hit that last pivotal range where my ability to counter them slowly slips out of reach.

 

"Laser taser stuns" - *** dude? So you don't even know what spells they have, just that they have "laser taser stuns?"

 

Yeah, you're definitely qualified to talk balance.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

After I have read thru the entire thread, I have come to one conclusion. There needs to be a level 40+ bracket. A big problem with PvP war-zones is that you can literally lose games by having 3-4 low levels on your team. They can just as good as their abilities/skill tree will allow them, but they aren't at the same potential as a full level 50.

 

Sage/Sith Inquisitor's is a nasty package. Especially sith inquisitors who have a big multiplier effect. There is a severe problem with PvP in general if you can take one or two classes, pile 8 of them on a team for a token player or two and rofl stomp. That is a distinct problem.

 

Now if a higher level bracket is established, these problems will significantly be reduced because of the introduction of players who should know their class at the late stage of the game. Whether or not SI or Sages need a beat stick over the head will become evident there. Too many low levels getting in the way of war zones to make an accurate analysis if something is OP or not.

 

As far as my concern is - bioware needs to implement a bracket and they need to do it soon. It should have been implemented upon launch, it shouldn't be hard to do since it's merely a IF THEN statement determining if a player is equal or higher to level 40.

[CommandoPower]

"Laser taser stuns" - *** dude? So you don't even know what spells they have, just that they have "laser taser stuns?"

 

Yeah, you're definitely qualified to talk balance.

 

Don't use "" if your going to add in words of your own. First of all they are not spells. Lets get that straight. LOL at the use of laser taser followed by calling them spells. If your going to be smart*** and sarcastic at least do it properly.

 

Secondly do you mean the exact mirror to scoundrels with the options for insane burst dmg OR good healing, multiple CC's (all close range), self speed boost, vanish, good DOT/burst damage, a 20% aoe blind/mezz on a long CD that builds resolve (for when it works right lol), aoe snare, some nifty energy maintenance abilities, decent damage reduction/heal received increase, self HOT attached to the over time energy restorer, a root, a cleanse, an in combat revive, an interrupt, a holy crap 3 seconds I can't be hit tool (talented for move speed increase), a self damage absorb, and essentially and artillery strike.

 

 

The only thing that keeps them from ROFLCOPTERING through the WZ's more is that alot of their true power does not come together until end game. But they are well capable of putting forwards massive amounts of damage, or good amounts of healing, far earlier than end game.

 

My scoundrel has consistently topped damage and kill charts since around level 14 or so. As she leveled up the utility and extra abilities have slowly been pushing that damage even higher while giving her more ability to support. 200k and near or over 40 kills is pretty feasible once you hit 20 and PVP gear. But then, I spec dirty fighting and spread my DOT love and then focus burst targets that are lowerish. Using my CC when it seems relevant (sometimes even for the 20% blind on flash grenade).

 

She's a fun character but she's already at the point of overly effective and by 50 she will be absolutely and completely ridiculous. However even she couldn't do much to geared 50's though she can trash most other classes pretty quickly (but admittedly gets trashed quickly currently).

 

As a side note I despise vanish and feel that 90% of the time using it would LOWER my effectiveness so I only use for objective based reasons. It's not my job to rambo in and burn vanish to kill 1-2 people then die to the defense zerg or have my team die because I'm not countering key people. It's my job to provide support damage and utility so that even derps can kill people with the biggest threats removed.

[CHRISGG]

I enjoy the fact that I motivated you to actually go and look up the classes you talk about so much. If only you did it for the one this thread is about.